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vapilot2004
23rd Oct 2016, 10:34
Parliament in Iraq has voted to ban the sale, import and production of alcohol, with backers of the move arguing that its availability contradicts Islam and is unconstitutional.

Opponents argue that the vote infringes constitutional guarantees of freedom of religious belief for minority groups such as Christians. They say they will appeal against the surprise decision in the courts.

An official said that the ban was a last-minute move by conservatives.
Since the fall of Saddam Hussein, activities perceived to be contrary to the moral code of Islam have come under repeated attack, with alcohol shops targeted in Baghdad and other cities.

Iraq alcohol: Parliament imposes ban in a surprise move - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37743180)

BAGHDAD Iraq's parliament has passed a law forbidding the import, production or selling of alcoholic beverages.

The bill passed late Saturday imposes a fine of up to 25 million Iraqi dinars, or $21,000, for anyone violating the ban.

Islam forbids the consumption of alcohol, but it has always been available in Iraq's larger cities, mainly from shops run by Christians. Those shops are currently closed because of the Shiite holy month of Muharram.

Iraq's parliament is dominated by Shiite Islamist parties. The legislation was proposed by Mahmoud al-Hassan, a judge and lawmaker from the State of Law coalition, the largest bloc in parliament.

The assembly announced the ban on its website. It did not say how many lawmakers voted for or against it.

Iraqi Parliament Passes Bill Banning Alcohol - NY Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2016/10/23/world/middleeast/ap-ml-iraq-alcohol-ban.html)

funfly
23rd Oct 2016, 11:11
It's up to them I suppose. Shiite influence seems to be gaining strength and is very autocratic - it's the punishments I object to.

Tankertrashnav
23rd Oct 2016, 12:19
It's up to them I suppose.

I wish to God that we in the West had taken the attitude that what goes on in these medieval states is up to them, and didn't think we could improve things by sticking our oars in. Every Western intervention in these countries, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan etc has ended in tears and achieved nothing.

AtomKraft
23rd Oct 2016, 12:24
TTN
I only wish it had achieved 'nothing', as you say.

That would be a great improvement on our present position.

Tankertrashnav
23rd Oct 2016, 12:32
Yes, I accept your amendment. Much, much worse, in fact.

vapilot2004
23rd Oct 2016, 13:08
Regarding our 'failures' yonder in the sand pit: they have a different mindset than ours, having been born out of the desert where savage competition amongst the tribes for even the most basic need for life, water, was the every day (and century) norm for many.

In the modern era, much of our (western) 'help' came with the best intentions, while other bits were somewhat less than altruistic.

racedo
23rd Oct 2016, 13:45
In the modern era, much of our (western) 'help' came with the best intentions,

Nope, can't even accept that.

Western intentions were money, money, money and money.

ZFT
23rd Oct 2016, 13:56
Nope, can't even accept that.

Western intentions were money, money, money and money.

Too true. Plus personal pension funds!

lomapaseo
23rd Oct 2016, 15:02
What in hell does this topic have to do with western interference?

Tankertrashnav
23rd Oct 2016, 15:45
I suppose that it should be of no more interest to us that a government somewhere imposes a no alcohol rule, than if another one somewhere else decrees that everyone should wear a black hat on Thursdays. Their country - their rules. Oh, and if you* go and live in one of these countries and fall foul of their laws, no matter how bizarre, don't come whining about it - you made the choice, probably for financial reasons, so live with the consequences.

(* I don't mean you personally!)

radeng
23rd Oct 2016, 15:59
Their rules are fine. If they then come whining because we won't help them or give them stuff, that's their lookout. Certainly, the second Gulf War was a big mistake, as was the Libyan fiasco.

meadowrun
23rd Oct 2016, 19:47
Good move. That will fix all their problems.

racedo
23rd Oct 2016, 20:48
I suppose that it should be of no more interest to us that a government somewhere imposes a no alcohol rule, than if another one somewhere else decrees that everyone should wear a black hat on Thursdays. Their country - their rules. Oh, and if you* go and live in one of these countries and fall foul of their laws, no matter how bizarre, don't come whining about it - you made the choice, probably for financial reasons, so live with the consequences.

US is complaining because theee is no way a country should ever have an alcohol ban stopping people doing what they wish to do......................... Admiral John Kirby of State Department claimed it could never happen in the USA.

evansb
23rd Oct 2016, 21:00
Prohibition in the United States was a nationwide constitutional ban on the production, importation, transportation and sale of alcoholic beverages that remained in place from 1920 to 1933. Private consumption of alcoholic beverages was not banned.

The prohibition of alcohol in Canada arose in various stages, from the possibility of local municipal bans in the late 19th century, to provincial bans in the early 20th century, to national prohibition (a temporary wartime measure) from 1918 to 1920. Most provinces repealed their bans in the 1920s, though alcohol was illegal in Prince Edward Island until 1948. Currently, some remote indigenous communities have prohibition in effect.

The Australian Capital Territory (then the Federal Capital Territory) was the first jurisdiction in Australia to have prohibition laws. In 1911, King O'Malley, then Minister of Home Affairs, shepherded laws through Parliament preventing new issue or transfer of licences to sell alcohol, to address unruly behaviour among workers building the new capital city. Prohibition was partial, since possession of alcohol purchased outside of the Territory remained legal and the few pubs that had existing licences could continue to operate. The Federal Parliament repealed the laws after residents of the Federal Capital Territory voted for the end of them in a 1928 plebiscite.

Since then, some local councils have enacted local dry zones in which possession or consumption of alcohol is forbidden. Nearly all dry zones are only a district within a larger community. Notable among those remaining in existence is the Adelaide city centre.

More recently, alcohol has been prohibited in many remote indigenous communities. Penalties for transporting alcohol into these "dry" communities are severe and can result in confiscation of any vehicles involved; in dry areas within the Northern Territory, all vehicles used to transport alcohol are seized.

Are there "Liberals" in Iraq?

Tankertrashnav
24th Oct 2016, 00:14
I drank some Aussie beer a while back - I though their alcohol ban was still in place!

galaxy flyer
24th Oct 2016, 00:29
Another scurvy attempt by vapilot2004, to tie Muslim fundamentalists to US conservatives who oppose just about everything Islamists stand for. Move on, nothing to see hear.

GF

vapilot2004
24th Oct 2016, 01:16
Another scurvy attempt by vapilot2004, to tie Muslim fundamentalists to US conservatives who oppose just about everything Islamists stand for. Move on, nothing to see hear.

GF

Thanks for putting that bogus motive on me, GF. That was certainly not my intention, but, since you brought it up, let's play our game. US Conservatives and ISIL/ISIS/Islamic Fundamentalists agree on quite a few things:

Hate evolution? check.
Hate sexually liberated and empowered women? Check.
Love guns and hate gays? Check.
Hate big liberal government? Check.
Religious principles > Secular government. Check.
Religious beliefs > Science. Checkaroo.
Angry rural 'no-nothings' > Big city, educated elites. Check.
Eye for an Eye Justice System? Check.
Do not trust the US Government. Yep.
Supports a violent overthrow/revolution in the US. Yessiree Bob.


And by the by, GF, it was a born again, Christian conservative bible thumper that cracked open and created the current Mess O' Potamia that has directly led to the rise of ISIS/ISIL. Namely, George W. Bush. Amen? I think not.

vapilot2004
24th Oct 2016, 01:22
Western intentions were money, money, money and money.

I cannot argue with that characterization, Racedo. The West is, after all, a group of capitalists and we've certainly screwed up plenty around the world in the name of the almighty dollar/pound/Euro.

I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations have given an enormous amount of their time and money (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are.

galaxy flyer
24th Oct 2016, 02:46
vapilot2004,

You are conflating Christian fundamentalists, not libertarian conservatives, with Muslim ones. ISIS IS big government demanding complete control and fealty, much like the liberal religion of "climate change, partial birth abortions, infinite taxation, western business is bad". Didn't see one Muslim st the gun club today, or one Democrat, either. Lots of Pi** on Hilary stickers.

GF

John Hill
24th Oct 2016, 03:21
I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations have given an enormous amount of their time and money (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are.

I am sure you are right but I just cant think of any examples in my life time.

John Hill
24th Oct 2016, 03:26
Conservatives in Iraq manage to ban alcohol.

Even in the depths of Teleban oppression you could still buy bottles of grape juice alongside packets of yeast in the small shops on Flower Street.

Uncle Fred
24th Oct 2016, 04:08
Seriously John? After the tsunami of a few years past it was the cousins who were on the spot jiffy quick with their hospital ship and other logistical aid and succor.

I think a case can be made that the Yanks have been leaders in keeping sea lanes open around the world for the past 70 years. Freedom of, and safe, navigation has driven global trade. If you don't think this has pulled countless from poverty then welcome to the joys of pre-agraian world structures.

meadowrun
24th Oct 2016, 04:31
So, according to Mr.Hill, all those billions in Aid $$$s have gone for absolutely naught and might as well be discontinued forthwith.


Please tell your government they are wasting around NZD 600m a year.

vapilot2004
24th Oct 2016, 04:36
vapilot2004,

You are conflating Christian fundamentalists, not libertarian conservatives, with Muslim ones.

GF

Yeah, sorry about that GF. Painted all of Trump's (and just about every GOP candidate's) supporters with the same broad brush as the core of the Republican party, the Christian conservatives. Lay with dogs, you're gonna get some of their fundamentalist fleas on ya. :p

Didn't see one Muslim st the gun club today, or one Democrat, either. Lots of Pi** on Hilary stickers.

You can tell an American Muslim by looking at them? That's impressive, GF. Funny stuff about the bumper stickers. :ok:

vapilot2004
24th Oct 2016, 04:54
There's a chance (slim) that the new law could be ruled unconstitutional. I am no expert on the makeup of the Iraqi court however.

Opponents of the law stated that the law infringes religious freedom of Christians and other minority groups, protected by the constitution, while member of parliament (MP) Ammar Toma justified the law [BBC report] stating that the constitution stipulates that "no law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established."

Christian and other minority groups have expressed concern over the law, which they view as a threat to fundamental principles of freedom and the inevitable result of the growing influence of religious parties. MP and Iraq Christian minority leader Yonadim Kanna has expressed his intention to refer the case to federal court stating that the ban violates the Iraq Constitution.

JURIST - Iraq bans alcoholic beverages (http://www.jurist.org/paperchase/2016/10/iraq-bans-alcoholic-beverages.php)

John Hill
24th Oct 2016, 06:27
Ahem.... what about "(not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears) ".

KelvinD
24th Oct 2016, 06:50
Here's an interesting take on Iraqi alcohol:
The Iraqi army invaded Kuwait on 2nd August 1990. On the following day, 3rd August, there appeared in the streets; Iraqi taxis, large stocks of rice and beer from a Basra brewery (not to mention, of course, tanks and troops). It was never particularly good beer though so we carried on drinking our home made wine and gin.
Prior to the invasion though, there was the odd weekend run up to Basra purely for the p**s ups! Kuwait had a total ban on malt, and that certainly puts a cramp in the home brew activities, unlike in Saudi Arabia where malt was bought at the local supermarket by the case.

racedo
24th Oct 2016, 11:18
I drank some Aussie beer a while back - I though their alcohol ban was still in place!

Bet you felt it was like making love in a Canoe.

racedo
24th Oct 2016, 11:22
I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations have given an enormous amount of their time and money (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are.

I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations Politicans and Businesss people have given an enormous amount of someone elses time and money (not theirs though) (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears of the expendable lower clasees ) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are so they can make billions in contracts or rip off the natural resources of these people.

alwayzinit
24th Oct 2016, 15:41
It is good to see that regardless of nationality, politicians always have a firm grasp of the vitally important issues....................................:ugh:
BTW how is the Mosul, Kerkuk etc offensives proceeding?..................

mini
24th Oct 2016, 17:11
Normal practice in Baghdad in the 90's was to have a cola can on the table in a restaurant, beside your glass which actually contained red wine, or to buy a soft drink and add spirits to it from a hidden bottle you brought yourself. I think it was only consuming in public that was banned - memory is a little hazy - but I'm nearly certain it was easily enough to buy.

Hempy
24th Oct 2016, 17:22
I drank some Aussie beer a while back - I though their alcohol ban was still in place!

No doubt it was Fosters. That crap is so bad that it's only any good for exporting to America and the UK. No one in Australia touches it.. :yuk:

The best beers come from Belgium then Germany imo. And as much as I hate to admit it, the Yanks have started producing some world class craft beers as well :ouch:

John Hill
24th Oct 2016, 20:02
I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations Politicans and Businesss people have given an enormous amount of someone elses time and money (not theirs though) (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears of the expendable lower clasees ) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are so they can make billions in contracts or rip off the natural resources of these people.

Quite often it is the taxpayers of the donor country who gets ripped off. I have seen it in various countries where 'aid' projects have no objective except to be 'signed off' and the contractors from the donor country go home regardless as to whether the aid is in the right hands or the project completed.

galaxy flyer
24th Oct 2016, 23:55
With beer, even Hempy's anti-American attitude falls. Can the end be nigh?

GF

Hempy
25th Oct 2016, 04:06
I don't have an anti-American attitude, I'm just anti some Americans... ;)

West Coast
25th Oct 2016, 04:43
No doubt it was Fosters. That crap is so bad that it's only any good for exporting to America and the UK. No one in Australia touches it..

Seemed to be flowing freely among the Aussie WWII vets I had the privilege to drink with.

Hempy
25th Oct 2016, 08:26
That's because there was all they had to drink I'd imagine.

fosters makes bad beer. no shit. (http://www.ratebeer.com/forums/fosters-makes-bad-beer-no-shit_149495.htm)

Peter-RB
25th Oct 2016, 08:31
Wot no Booze??
well thats another exciting and adventurous destination off my bucket list:=

vapilot2004
25th Oct 2016, 09:21
I would like to remind everyone that the US and other Western nations Politicans and Businesss people have given an enormous amount of someone elses time and money (not theirs though) (not to mention beaucoups blood, sweat, and tears of the expendable lower clasees ) towards helping those people around the world less fortunate than we are so they can make billions in contracts or rip off the natural resources of these people.

Racedo, while I agree much of capitalist corporate America (and more than a few conservative money mongers) are all for profit and profit only, and could give a rats arse about those less fortunate (some of which are the backs upon which these wealthy, stingy people got their money) there are organizations in the world that do a lot of good for improving world health, expanding education programs, and feeding people. There are also quite a few individuals that generously share their wealth regularly.

In 2014, Americans gave some $360 Billion dollars to charity. The UN Millennium Goals, which have unfortunately passed their program date, have still managed to do a lot of good in the world.

Fact Sheet - United Nations Millennium Goals - 2015 [pdf] (http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/2015_MDG_Report/pdf/MDG%202015%20rev%20(July%201).pdf)

http://i68.tinypic.com/2uf3fr5.png

By the way, nice job futzing my quote - I do this sometimes (for fun) and it can rub folks the wrong way. I was not offended. :ok:

racedo
25th Oct 2016, 18:10
Racedo, while I agree much of capitalist corporate America (and more than a few conservative money mongers) are all for profit and profit only, and could give a rats arse about those less fortunate (some of which are the backs upon which these wealthy, stingy people got their money) there are organizations in the world that do a lot of good for improving world health, expanding education programs, and feeding people. There are also quite a few individuals that generously share their wealth regularly.

Oh I am fully aware there are US rich people who give to charity and donate to charitable causes via their Foundations.......... but in quite a few cases they use it to influence with the political dogma.

Mind you their are others who do it benenevolently like George Soros / Clinton foundation / Trump foundation.

West Coast
25th Oct 2016, 20:15
Charitable Giving in America: Some Facts and Figures (http://nccs.urban.org/nccs/statistics/charitable-giving-in-america-some-facts-and-figures.cfm)

Individuals, not foundations, nor corporations provide the lions share of the money given to charity. Folks like myself who give to Veterans causes. I'm not seeking to influence anyone other than a vets life in a positive manner.

Btw, I'm far from rich.

Lonewolf_50
25th Oct 2016, 20:51
racedo, any claim by Soros of benevolence is a lie, and I suspect the same can be said for Mr Trump. I don't comment on the Clintons anymore because it makes me swear to frequently, and I'm trying to cut down.


Back to the topic at hand: Iraq was never on my "must visit list" and now that there is to be no booze, it will graduate to Never Visit List, and I doubt they'll miss me.

galaxy flyer
26th Oct 2016, 03:34
Sort of a bucket list but the opposite, Lonewolf 50

GF

vapilot2004
26th Oct 2016, 11:04
Oh I am fully aware there are US rich people who give to charity and donate to charitable causes via their Foundations.......... but in quite a few cases they use it to influence with the political dogma.


Very true. Religious dogma as well. This is among the reasons why pushback exists from beneficiaries at international institutions such as the World Bank. Ideally, everyone should aspire to help those around them, as WC suggests he does at home.

Unfortunately the world has geographies that are at odds with supporting healthy and happy lives, mainly due to the lack of responsible leadership, education, and investments in infrastructure. That all takes money and wisdom, something the world's benefactors, at their best bring in spades. A lot of damage has been done where these seemingly benign entities are at their most greedy, dishonest, and manipulative worst, often appearing where resources are involved. In that respect, I agree Racedo.

Blacksheep
27th Oct 2016, 13:13
Conservatives in Iraq? :ooh: Good gracious me: I never knew we had a local association over there.

Lonewolf_50
27th Oct 2016, 14:42
I am sure you are right but I just cant think of any examples in my life time.
I can give you two off the top of my head, in your life time.
Tsunami relief, 2005
Earthquake relief, Pakistan, 2004.

More recently assistance in Nepal after an earthquake, with the unfortunate loss of a helicopter and its crew.


Three of dozens of recent vintage, and hundreds in your life time ... but you are free to remain in denial about that.

West Coast
27th Oct 2016, 16:16
Don't take the bait, he's a waste of your time. John is a troll who's maybe even deep inside agrees with you but maintains his anti US everything persona. Other than to zing him from time to time, he's not worth your time trying to reply in a serious manner.

I've learned it, others as well.