RAF Pilot Retention

[Concernedpilot]

Over the (relatively short) life of the RAF there have been a number of ‘critial points,’ at which whole structure is addressed and altered in order to address an issue. The current state of pilot manning is just that, a critical point. Ignoring the new aircraft types we have just taken on, the additional FJ Sqns planned, the ever present draw of the MFTS contract, Russian posturing, Brexit and an increasing need to ‘fly the Union Flag;’ I think the RAF is close to being below critical mass of key enablers. There comes a point where without quality flying instructors, formation leaders, Sqn supervisors and SQEP Officers manning critical staff positions the game quickly turns sour and exponential reductions in capability quickly follow.

Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!

The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!

The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!

[skaterboi]

Since the other thread on the 'current PVR rate' has degenerated in to a slanging match and arguably isn't on the same subject (as retention covers people leaving at Option Points, Exit Points as well as under PVR terms) I'll stick my head above the parapet and give, what I feel, are the answers to your questions. Taking each of your paragraphs in turn:

Much has been written on this forum citing the various reasons for leaving, and each pilot walking out the door inevitably has a number of reasons to go. The fact is however that flying training is getting increasingly expensive, a Typhoon pilot costs just shy of around 16 Million GBP to train. An F35 pilot will undoubtedly be considerably more. A civilian company would never dream of investing this amount of cash in an employee, have them resign in droves and not address the reasons they are leaving!


Agreed, and if the RAF doesn't start to look at this we will descend deeper in what is already a bad situation. I understand 2019 is the biggest pinch point so we're not even there yet.

The pay of a front line pilot falls woefully short of commercial equivalents. With flying training delays (not the fault of the employee) pilots often don’t attract flying pay until early-mid thirties. At the same time a guy joining a low cost airline would have easily amortized training costs, and is likely to be on track for a short haul command (lets say around 80k a year, fully pensionable?), we pay our pilots around 35k + a small amount of flying pay (I have deliberately steered away from the obvious Middle Eastern employment comparisons). Now let’s consider the length of working day of an ‘average’ FJ pilot; I think you’ll struggle to find a front line operator who doesn’t regularly bounce off the 13 hour aircrew fatigue limit. Then there’s the trivia; it is easier to fly an aircraft into Europe than it is to arrange off-station MT, pilots spending a night away at another base have to pay for the privilege of a dated mess room which would be undoubtedly substandard to any commercial operator, finally we (as the employer) think it totally acceptable to work our guys into the ground with substandard support just because we think they are ‘privileged to fly a fast jet.’ It is a privilege, but it’s bloody hard work and evidently the privilege quickly wears off!

I'm not a FJ mate, but a ME PAS Flt Lt. I happen to quite like what I do, the aircraft I fly has many esoteric disciplines and having not been on it that long and as I'm within my PAS RoS, I'm still keen and interested.

That said, I'm 99% leaving when my PAS RoS ends. Why? Pay and Pension.

Pay is not the be all and end all of the equation, especially as said, I like flying military aircraft. I suspect up to a point most of us do. However, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the benefits of Service Life have been gradually eroded to almost nothing, such that once the novelty of flying wears off, the only comparison to outside becomes pay. Since we're not paid parity with outside, when there are no extra incentives to stay (and many incentives to leave such as time away, chaotic programming, living in crap accommodation) the decision is easy. In addition, the added uncertainly over future military pensions (is AFPS 15 the last change to our pensions we'll see?) and the rumours of taxing the lump sum, all mean it's easier to take the money and run rather than risk staying in and seeing further reductions.

The whole force career structure is broken. A civilian employer would never dream of paying the guy who runs the admin office the same as a guy with 16Million + pounds worth of training who has multiple employment opportunities outside. I greatly value the work done by ground branch Officers, but the fact is that they are not as expensive to train, critical to the operation of the Force, or (and this is the clincher) as employable elsewhere. I have no doubt that it is now time for a specialist pay scale (like medics, and lawyers…. Also very employable outside) for pilots, this could even be type specific – should a Tucano pilot earn the same as an F35 jock? The planned changes to aircrew pay fall horrendously short of addressing the issues and I think we will continue to lose trained pilots at an alarming rate; a rate only to be exasperated when the ’75 pension crowd have moved on!


I recently attended a meeting with some Civil Servants that asked the question on what would keep me in. I stated what I said above ie why are Pilots paid what Adminers are paid? I'm not being precious here, I'm genuinely not, but why do we pay our pilots based on rank and not what they're worth? We don't pay our Doctors and Dentists like that and they hold rank too. In doing so, we will only retain a pilot until the novelty wears off.

At the end of the day, I have to do what's right for me and my family. If the RAF wants to change the way and the amount it pays it's pilots for the better in order to offset the issues of military life, then great. If not, then I and many others will leave. It's a shame, but it's as simple as that.

[Hueymeister]

Spot on Skaterboi. A colleague on this side of the pond recently 'released' (as it seems many are doing at the moment). His reasons were pretty much identical; Air Canada, Westjet et al are ramping up recruiting and many who are beyond ROS are looking to go outside.

[SVK]

I'm with Skater and Huey on this one:

There are specialist pay spines for Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF.

Pilots however will get paid the same as PEdos and Adminers.

Now, I know there are some who will cry, "But you get Retention and Recruitment Pay" Yeah - but quite a few years after you've been recruited and you'll have to be retained quite a few too!

There will be those who cry, "If you don't like it then leave" - pilots are.

I'm not writing this to enter into some sort of 'us and them' p*ssing contest, rather its market forces. The RAF doesn't pay enough - see ya!

On the other hand, the RAF pays handsomely if you want to be an Admin Trainer, HR guru or hotel fitness suite manager.

[Clunk60]

Skater

Where have you heard the rumours of taxing the gratuity? That would be THE game changer for me personally.

[Could be the last?]

As has been alluded to, there is a lot of rumour wrt Pay and pensions, has anyone got anything a little more definitive? And, as with others, taxing my gratuity would be the final straw!

[chippy63]

Not specially relevant, but interesting; the recent Cranwell graduation list had 14 pilots and 11 personnel officers of various types. Not a healthy ratio.

[pettinger93]

Have a son who is an officer in the Royal Navy: exactly the same situation applies.

[MPN11]

Not surprised ATC features ... it was once the 2nd hardest promotion pyramid, and I doubt that's improved since my day! I know a lot of old colleagues slipped sideways into staff jobs at NATS in later years, but losing JOs is a bit of a new development. It's not an instant transition from Mil to Civ ATC, with totally different rules and practical aspects..

[MSOCS]

Manning have none of the levers that can make the differences required. They have tacitly admitted that. Everything these days requires tri-Service committee buy in. The USAF have given a huge retention incentive out to keep their people from walking out of the door. For that they had to go to Congress.

For this to be fixed it needs support all the way to the very top of Government and Treasury.

Good luck with that - we will have to be on our backsides, unable to function, for anything to be done. Until we get to that point (and we are not there yet) it won't get beyond OF5/4/3 level measures.

[ShotOne]

While I agree 100% with the main premise here that pilots ought to be looked after better, it has to be pointed out that some of the direct comparisons made with civilian salaries are wide of the mark. The figure of £80k was mentioned; few pilots earn that much for a good many years, and probably not at all in the turboprop world. Indeed if your steed has propellers you may earn less than the guy searching your bag to start with!

[Stuff]

Interesting post from Concernedpilot, however, pay is not hidden or secret and the pension is not confidential. You knew what it was when you joined and barring the recent pay scale change and AFPS15, neither of which turned anyone from a Lord to a pauper, is what you knew you were signing up for.

If money is what drives you above all else then why did you sign up?

[cessnapete]

Stuff, fine if you are dead set on an RAF career. But when an RAF ME pilot (gratis ALTP perhaps, courtesy of a Voyager conversion) can walk into a RHS 777/787/A380/744 on near £70G it's Retention problem.

[ShotOne]

Is the issue retention as opposed to fairness? Both points have been well made; its worth pointing out that the civilian pilots with which comparison is being made have had to pay the full cost of their training. Repaying that makes quite a dent in a junior FO salary. If the focus is retention, what's wrong or unfair with an explicit training bond for the cost of that training set against an agreed number of years service?

[Professor Plum]

Stuff,

Yes I knew what I would get paid when I joined,what my pension would be and how long I would need to serve to get it, and also what allowances I would get. I also had an idea of what the job market was like outside the RAF.

All of the above have changed.

New pay scales. AFPS 15. I now have to serve 20 years to get what I was told on joining I would get after 18. (Balpa would be striking if this was an airline!) allowances cut. Pay freeze followed by 1% pay "rise". To top it off, airlines are
Recruiting heavily, more so than when I joined, so when I'm in a position to leave, if nothing changes drastically to keep me in, what does the RAF think I'm going to do?!

The RAF changed the goalposts that were in place when I joined.

It's not rocket science.

[Jumping_Jack]

They're not. Pilots get great wadges of flying pay to add to their ranked salary!

[Chugalug2]

MPN11:-
It's not an instant transition from Mil to Civ ATC, with totally different rules and practical aspects

I would say that much the same applies for pilots. However, I tread warily into this debate as some of the flak flying around on the PVR thread was against those who, like me, left the RAF many years ago. Some things don't change though. I remember the culture shock of entering civvie street. You were on your own, sink or swim. Yet by contrast some ex-military pilots seemed to find it difficult to mould themselves into the concept of crew co-operation and information exchange that civil airlines demand.

I was called to MOD for interview having applied for a PVR. I had a dread that I would emerge from it on some punishment ground tour "pour encourager les autres". It turned out to be my ex boss, now a P2 Groupie dealing with Wg Cdrs and above. He wanted to know if I (a mere JO) was under some cloud or other. "No Sir, but I have come to realise that whereas your first love is the Air Force, mine is flying. I have come to the point where they are now incompatible". To cut this rambling story short, he said he'd see that my PVR went through. I only tell it because he was an example of why it was so hard to tear myself away from the RAF. He and his ilk do not, cannot, exist in civilian life.

If all this might seem as a cautionary tale against taking the plunge, it is not. It is merely to make sure you know what it is you are plunging into. I went for short haul flying in the independent sector (bucket and spade brigade mainly). It wasn't so well paid as the long haul state owned sector (as it was then) but much more fun. I don't regret PVR'ing, and I'm glad of my choice of civilian employer.

Money is important, but job satisfaction is more so in my view, so get as much up to date info about the outside world as possible. Seniority is everything, so you don't want to waste it flitting from job to job where you are the proverbial square peg.

Just my thoughts. I'll shuffle off now in my bedroom slippers back to the fireside...

[Evalu8ter]

I left 18 months ago, with just one month's worth of "career average" on top of my APS75 pension, and, glad to say, commuted tax free gratuity. I still pine for the things I miss; operational flying, the crewroom banter and the sense of belonging. But. The RAF, IMHO, has become a very two tier employer. There are those that rise seamlessly through the ranks, where mistakes are swept under the carpet and forgiven. They cannot rationalise why anyone should leave, and cite their own rise as evidence that the system is faultless. These individuals cannot understand the other RAF where trivia, micro-management and risk aversion are increasingly the norm. I think the point is that, yes, you understand the Ts and Cs when you join and I was grateful to be given the choice over APS75/APS05. Since then the "choice" seems to have disappeared. No choice over the endless erosion of perks, the mindless trivia over travel claims and, most importantly, absolutely no choice in an imposed fundamental change of conditions with the new pensions. Those at the top already have banked substantial pension provision and couldn't give a toss, those fresh faced joiners will know no different (and it will be very interesting to see how many of this cohort serve till 40 and IPP) - yet again it is the "squeezed middle" that suffers. Their only choice is to head for the door. Unfortunately for the RAF this is where the leaders of tomorrow are formed and where the SQEP to assure everything from Operational output to Airworthiness resides. Hack them off and watch the best of them leave at your future peril........

[Jumping_Jack]

Evalu8ter..........spot on.............

[Professor Plum]

Agreed. Spot on.

[Stuff]

Isn't making you head for the door the master plan?

Lets look at the changes so far:

Final Salary vs Career Average. Always going to be a loser on career average especially if you take into account 6 months at Cranwell on New Entrant Rate of Pay which is currently around £14,000. God forbid you should be re-coursed or worse still end up on medical holding flight for any length of time. 6 months of £14k is going to seriously dent the final average whichever way you look at it.

Seniority for degrees. When I joined (and if my maths is right, Evalu8tor must have joined at about the same time) you got credit for your degree back in the form of a jump in Fg Off seniority. You even got an extra year just for being aircrew. My cadetship + 4 years seniority for my degree + 1 year for being aircrew made me a Flt Lt (with corresponding jump in wages) before I knew what I was doing. All this is now gone.

Flying Pay. Time used to start ticking when you got your wings. Now you need to be post OCU. Memory is hazy but I'm pretty sure I was on initial rate all through Valley and must have been knocking on the door of Middle rate when I reached the OCU (those were some long holds!).

Initial commission. PCs were the norm (16/38) with a few SSCs scattered about. Now SSC seems to be the default and you have to be 'selected' to swap to a pension earning commission later on.

All of the above make it much easier (and cheaper) to attract you straight from school, get 12 years out of you then let you go.

The OP claims £16M training cost to the end of OCU. I think that's way over the mark, £4-5M seems closer to a believable number and even than that is arrived at by adding up the cost of everything and diving by the number of graduates.

A better question would be, given that the equipment and bases are already in place, how much extra would it cost to train 1 extra pilot? If this figure is significantly less than the cost to retain the experienced guy past 40 for a 'full career' then you can see why this direction of travel has been taken.

I'm not saying I agree with it but it seems clear to me that those on here pining for the RAF to do more to retain them are barking up the wrong tree. Either you will be happy in the RAF and stay anyway or you'll be looking for greater remuneration and leave at 12 year point under the new system. This, I think, is what manpower plans want.

[Brian 48nav]

Chugalug, I'm pretty sure that our old boss is still on the perch! A gentleman!

[sharpend]

The world has changed enormously since i joined the RAF in 1964. I even have been a civilian for 13 years; doesn't time fly. However, I left with two years to run because I saw the way everything was going. When I joined, flying was paramount and I had no idea how much I got paid. It was not an issue. I was paid sufficient to keep me in beer and to run a Triumph Spitfire. Everything else in my life was provided for; free food, batting, cheap booze, but above all, heaps of flying. My first tour was on a sunny island in the Med which housed 7 Squadrons. Fun we had in spades, pilots ran the Air Force and accountants was just a word in the dictionary. Now where is that jet for the weekend, multiple overseas postings and a support mechanism designed to do just that; support the flying task?

[Evalu8ter]

Stuff,
Sounds about right! I got Flt Lt and Initial Rate Flying Pay on BFTS just before FJ LIN thanks to a degree and a hold and then JEFTS (which I was offered to fill a slot and only took as it started the flying pay clock earlier....). I think you're correct in your assumption that the RAF now wishes to pick and choose those that stay for a full career and use SSCs plus FTRS to fill the gaps. One only hopes that they don't just select the 'chisellers' for PCs or things could get very bad very quickly when risk averse group think really takes hold......

[Wander00]

On Saturday I will step onto an RAF station for the first time for 23 years. I wonder how different it will seem from what I remember.

[Onceapilot]

Back in the mid 80's, I remember that FJ pilots needed to be second tourists to be pretty useful in role. Sharp second or third tourists would normally provide the QWI raw material and become really useful in their subsequent tour after qualifying. So what? Well, the QWI's were often also promotion fodder, moved up the ladder fast, and always in short supply. Consequently, overall standards of performance in the air by a Squadron, relied heavily upon the older, non-thrusting but experienced dudes. I may be wrong but, if cost is going to cull a greater percentage at around 35 yo, I can only see a lower future level of experience and ability!:ooh:

OAP

[MPN11]

OAP ... no argument with that perspective. :ok:

I had related issues in ATC, albeit in the other direction, when trying to choose those to be trained to be Watch Supervisors. The old and bold NFI flt lt, just doing his time for pension, or the thrusting but relatively inexperienced fg off? The fg off usually won the day.

[Brian 48nav]

One of the latter was my last watch manager at Heathrow before my early retirement!

[Tom Bell-Weed]

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Before leaving around 13 years ago, my Master's thesis was on RAF FJ pilot retention. After a fair bit of research, a pattern emerged that most pilots were hacked-off by their early thirties and left as soon as possible after that point. (An obvious exception were the hard-core career guys who loved the service truly, madly, deeply.) This correlated broadly with when family commitments were ramping up: concerns about time away from small children both day-to-day as well as on the many routine deployments, and more concerns about money generally. At this age a more mature assessment of the likely benefits of the civil sector seemed to come into play. Compare this to the first-tourist who would probably take minimum wage and/or beer money for the pleasure of throwing one of HM's pointy jets around.

I think, therefore, most decisions to leave are taken when the declining ‘fun’ line crosses the rising ‘need for more money’ line on the graph. If the RAF/MoD/Treasury could delay when the money issue becomes critical, I suspect many individuals would stay a bit longer. Even one extra productive tour per pilot would result in a massive cost reduction through reduced numbers in the training system. Only a small element of that saving would be needed to pay for a more substantial retention package for those with the highest replacement cost.

[Onceapilot]

TBW
I think, with my experience and the benefit of hindsight, that retention is far more complicated than just a fun/pay balance for most. Prospects for continued engagement into full career and/or promotion were always important, coupled with options for a civvi change-over if you needed to. Whatever, the plan now seems to be: get them in for as short-as-poss to avoid paying much or building a pension and, it'll be fine, Honest! :uhoh:

OAP

[sycamore]

OAP,don`t forget,they won`t get a LSGCM when they leave then......more savings...

[MPN11]

Tom Bell-Weed Your 'decreasing fun line' resonates, looking back at my RAF life back in the late 70s/early 80s. I'd been lucky to stumble on what might be called a 'career ladder', but it was grindingly slow (partly due to demographic bulges). But as the fun faded away (partly due to increased maturity) the 'money' graph started to look brighter.

And so another BOF was born ;)

[Onceapilot]

sycamore OAP,don`t forget,they won`t get a LSGCM when they leave then......more savings...
Yes,...part and parcel, IMO.:sad:

OAP

[airborne_artist]

Vets, Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Chaplains, Nurses, Nuclear Engineers and SF

Pretty sure that the SF Spec pay is only for those in the ranks. Ruperts didn't qualify back in the day.

It did p*ss off our Regimental Pay Staff Sgt that I earned more than him as a TA Corporal. I explained if he'd like to do Selection, para course plus a few other bits and bobs ( and an annual CFT) he too could be on my pay band. He declined. :ok:

[Tinribs]

I must be a contemporary of Sharpend. Joined Jan 64 stayed to 38/16 than ran away to an airline, BMI, who were happy o take me because I had flown the Viscount in the RAF

As it happens I recently visited an RAF base with a civi group. What struck me most was that all those I met considered the service as a job, with much talk of the various Ts and Cs and the uncertainty they faced over pensions, pay scales, and postings. The task seemed nothing more than than part of the problem

I saw no pleasure in life, the service, messes or their relationship with each other, there was no sign of joint pleasure in the task or respect. Seniors were routinely and openly described with contempt.

I asked one small group what they would do if they saw a friend in deep personal trouble in need of management support, they replied keep quiet.

I am am deeply troubled that the service I loved for all those years and was so good to me has been reduced to just another job

[Onceapilot]

Tinribs
I do not think the RAF should be just "another job" but, the Politicians have bamboozled VSOs over the last 25 years to do, just that! Pity.:uhoh:

OAP

[Bob Viking]

Tinribs.

I have two points to throw back at you.

Firstly one small group of people at one base can't necessarily be considered representative of the entire RAF.

Secondly, if you'd joined the RAF in 1920 and walked into your future crewroom in 1982 and asked the same questions do you think that, maybe, you would have struggled to identify with the youngsters if not in the same way you describe but certainly on many levels.

I know I'm always banging on about the same thing on every thread but my point is always the same. Times, and people, change.

It's not necessarily wrong. It's just different.

Retreating back behind my rose tinted spectacles now.

BV

[Madbob]

I left the RAF in 1989 and the rot was setting in even back then. Messes seemed to be run more and more for the convenience of the staff rather than mess members.
So called H24 stations offered sweet FA to those working weekends or late and meal times got earlier so that staff could get home because stewards, cooks etc were increasingly civilians and had to be paid over-time for dining-in nights, and other official mess functions.
Batting services became virtually non-existent and most of the perks of bothering to get a commission went out the door for JO's and for SO's things were just as bad!
At Wattisham in c 1984 the staish, T*** P**** had about 15 feet cut off the end of his garden to reduce the area so that it was below the cut off area to qualify him to have a gardener or an allowance for one. How cynical a ploy is that!
Jumping ship was a fairly simple step with "Options for Change" being the final shove.

MB

[Haraka]

I had a " crisis of conscience" about PVR whilst on a very challenging, fulfilling and lucrative secondment overseas, the organisation of which offered me further promotion. My choice was to return to the RAF or jump ship.
Over a couple of bottles of wine I took a visiting VSO into my confidence as to my dilemma.
His response :
"Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."
Which I did.

[Chugalug2]

Haraka:-
a visiting VSO..."Look, the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life."
Says a lot about that VSO's personal investment in the Royal Air Force, and in stark contrast to my ex-boss (a mere Gp Capt) who despite ensuring my own PVR went through, nonetheless dedicated his life to the RAF rather than to his own personal ambition. I don't blame you for taking exactly the same course that I did. I do however find the style of advice given you as very telling, and perhaps typical of the RAF High Command's culture in general.

[MSOCS]

...or that particular VSOs attitude.

The preponderance of folk on here to generalise, without anything more than singular frames of reference to support it, staggers me.

People change, attitudes change, organisations tend to move (albeit at varying rates) 'with the times'. The RAF isn't an exception and, compared to the other Services, they tend to be quicker to adapt.

All I read here is, 'it was better in my day'. Well, having served a mere 20 years, I've seen a fair amount of change - some better, some worse - yet the people are as professional and as passionate as ever, and with lots of cutting-edge kit coming in. The RAF is an exciting career if you want it. Without doubt.

Perhaps the difference is that, for many of the retired types on here, the RAF that I know has been permanently engaged on operations overseas for 25 years and not a romantic gesture of a long-forgotten Empire.

[Bob Viking]

MSOCS.

So it's not just me who has noticed that tendency then?

BV

[Chugalug2]

MSOCS, your generalisation about those posting here generalising about the RAF is noted. The generalisation that I proposed, reference the attitude of the RAF High Command, is borne of the continuing cover up by said High Command of the illegal orders and actions of certain VSOs in the late 80s/early 90s that effectively sabotaged the provision and maintenance of UK Military Airworthiness ever since.

A bandwagon? Perhaps, but if it illustrates a tendency of those in the RAF High Command to not rock the boat, even if the very foundation of the RAF is at stake (ie the airworthiness of its aircraft whether past, present, or future), then the attitude of Haraka's VSO may well not be that unique at all.

That's the tendency I see, BV.

[Evalu8ter]

MSOCS,
You make a very good point re the tempo and stresses of the past 15 years vice the decades before. I know several that have left the SH community because they're just worn out, or the family is disintegrating due to stress/prolonged separation and, for some, the spectre of PTSD. My generation had a very different career to the Cold War generation. With the 'rest tours' and re-roles shrinking rapidly, and (however you spin it), a continual erosion of Ts & Cs and perks, then is it any surprise we find ourselves in another one of the cyclical retention troughs?

[ShyTorque]

I know several that have left the SH community because they're just worn out, or the family is disintegrating due to stress/prolonged separation and, for some, the spectre of PTSD.

I left the RAF in the early 1990s and the reasons you quoted were just as much an issue back then. The harder I worked to progress in pure aviation and gain more qualifications, the more I got screwed around by the system - whilst others had a relatively gilded and quiet life. I became little more than a flying "odd job man" on short postings and detachments. It soon became obvious that I was used to help ward off manning crises caused by poor man management elsewhere. The RAF asked me to remain on as "Spec Aircrew" till age 55 but I could see that another couple of years of never being at home I would no longer have a family to go home to.

The final nail in the coffin for me was shortly after "New Management Strategy" was introduced, at the same time as large cuts in overall funding. I had a couple of leave passes rejected by our Sqn boss without any explanation. The Sqn Budget officer (same rank as me, his secondary duty) told me that no more leave passes would be processed on the squadron because there was no more money in the pot for leave travel allowance!! I lost most of my leave that year and had not been in a position to take all of my entitlement for some years prior to that, due to "exigences of the service". It was particularly galling to watch others subsequently go on leave more than once, having put in all their leave passes early. Towards the end of that financial year I was ordered to report to the Boss's office (hat on no coffee), along with a couple of others in my position. He had been personally taken to task by the AOC during his annual inspection about some staff pilots not taking leave. I was required to explain why I had only taken one week off in the year..... he seemed to think it was suddenly our own fault.

I simply grew tired of having my head trodden on, left at my 38 point and now have been out longer than I was in. Never had one day's unemployment since, 22 years later.

[Hangarshuffle]

Is this thread about money then? Years ago we had a family invite onboard the CVS I was then serving on. (That was a type/class of ship, crabs). Basically people brought their sons, daughters or dads onboard to live with them for 3 days transit and see how we lived, this was Gib to Pompey. One of the civvy blokes who had been invited onboard took great delight in telling me he was staying down the wardroom as his son was an officer and much better than us Junior Rates. He also told me a phrase that has never left me. "Every employer will pay you exactly what you are worth".
16 million pounds spent in training....they don't care mate. They don't care what you do, whether you win wars or more likely lose them. We live in a time of peace at home. UK war is far from the GB publics mind no matter how much the Daily Telegraph big it up with Russia.
My continuous advice to young people of all ranks, rates and accents - leave the UK armed forces as quickly as you can.

[Onceapilot]

ShyTorque
I am sorry to read your tales of leave buggeration!:ooh: Unfortunately, the mismanagement of personel has been a secret specialisation for a long time! I agree that you can face an impossible task if you try to offer "the best" to the system. I too, failed to find a fair balance, and I gave it nearly 4 decades! Cheers:)

OAP

[mopardave]

My continuous advice to young people of all ranks, rates and accents - leave the UK armed forces as quickly as you can.


My son did exactly that......and quit the UK too. Why anyone thinks they matter is beyond me....that's not cynicism.....it's reality. When you stop enjoying the work, move on. When you get that, everything else falls in to place. I suspect the vso wasn't expressing his own opinion....he was just giving an honest opinion?

[Chugalug2]

mopardave, everyone did matter on every squadron that I served on. Why did we matter? Because the bosses I had made you feel just that. It's called leadership. I don't care if that sounds old fashioned and slightly embarrassing, it's what a fighting service depends primarily upon. You can have all the cutting-edge kit coming in. but it is as naught without leadership, and that begins at the very top. Telling JOs that the Service doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life. isn't my idea of leadership.

[charliegolf]

Telling JOs that the Service
Quote:
doesn't give a sh*t about you . Get out and get on with the rest of your life.
isn't my idea of leadership.

So if you believe that the service doesn't give a toot about you, you should say otherwise to appear to be a good leader?

[Chugalug2]

cg, I've no idea whether or not Haraka felt that. That is for him to say.

If the VSO who gave him that advice felt that then one assumes that he felt the same way, or does the Service (of which he is a crucial part) only give a sh*t for VSOs? Either way is unacceptable. If the former then why hadn't the VSO taken his own advice? If the latter then the Service and the VSOs are as one in not giving a sh*t for all those not so favoured.

I don't believe either can be true for most VSOs, but for those VSOs who believe that the Service owes a duty of care to all who serve in it, it is behoven upon them to demonstrate that in their words and deeds at all times.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I would have thought that telling you exactly how it is is rather good leadership? Would you have preferred it if he had lied and told you that the CAS would cry himself to sleep at night if you left?

The RAF as an organisation doesn't really give a **** about you as an individual, if it did it would probably pay better, not be fiddling with pensions and have a 'career management' organisation that actually had the capacity to career manage individuals rather than simply match names to posts. But I doubt BA or Easyjet really give that much of a sh!t about you individually either, they are just in a position to generate profit and pay their staff sufficiently such that an exodus of pilots doesn't effect their ability to make ££s.

Ultimately an organisation cares about its masters; for a company, that is the board and shareholders, for the military it is the politicians. Yes, we could solve pilot retention overnight by paying us all £150k a year, but the politicians don't want the press generated by pilots in air conditioned cockpits (or non-air conditioned 50 degC cockpits for SH guys) getting paid 5 times some soldier that spends his days dodging bullets and IEDs, so they don't do it.

Personally, I have a very good chain of command that I believe would show genuine remorse if I PVRed tomorrow, even if the RAF doesn't collectively weep for me. I enjoy my job, the lifestyle that goes with it, the people I work with (or most of them at least) and happen to think I get paid pretty well for a non-grad who hasn't had to pay a penny for flying training, work clothes, gyms, doctors, dentists, travel etc for 15 odd years. Oh, and I can get a pension next year. Granted, it isn't what it used to be but who the hell else gets a pension at 38 that is well over half the UK average annual salary?!

I think pilot retention is reaching the point that the politicians will start to care, so I think we will see some changes before too long. But if you don't enjoy your job and think you can get paid more in civvy street then leave; the RAF probably doesn't give a sh*t about you, just don't expect your next employers to care that much either!

[Lima Juliet]

a mere 20 years

Not forgetting that 20 years is just slightly more than 1/5th the lifespan of the RAF so far!! So it's not exactly 'mere' in my opinion. Those that have served over 32 years have been in for 1/3rd! I would say that the change in the RAF in our 98 years is pretty colossal given the short time of existence.

As for advice. As a SO (without the V) I have always offered something along the lines of:

Look after yourself, the Service is too large and unweildy to look after you. At the start you don't give two hoots about the money but as you get older, and collect a spouse, house, kiddies and loans to pay for it all, you will. So throw yourself at it in your early days - heart and soul - and don't expect it to make you rich. When you get older you may need to tone down that enthusiasm and share your service with your family. When you or they stop enjoying it, and only you will know when that is and it will be quite apparent, then start to look elsewhere. But remember that you will miss the good things that serving offers, so make sure you are truly ready as I've known those leave and then rejoin as they realise they were not ready. Finally, don't expect HMForces to make you richer than the average Joe, but in retirement the pension may make life a lot more comfortable for you in the longer term. The decision is entirely yours...

I would judge that most posting on here are at the point where they need to tone down that enthusiasm and look elsewhere. Flying a bunch of holiday makers or business people in a ~300-seat flying bus might pay better, but after a while it will start to get boring. I only have to look at my mate's posts on Face-Ache to see that and how they fill their time on their days off doing something that will fill the void. How many pictures taken through the HUD of an Airbus can you post over so many years until it gets a bit too repetitive? Many of them use the extra cash to fly more exotic types during their days off to stave off the daily drudge of the Boeing Boredom Fighter.

Is RAF aviator pay about right? I believe so. However, it is the terms and conditions that have started the rot. Too many dets to the sand-pit to the same old places, reductions in standards of accommodation, loss of allowances, 1% (or less) pay rises making all feel under valued and increases in trivia burden (JPA, overuse of emails, currency/courses for just about everything, etc..) are the real driving factors when coupled to average pay. Death by a thousand cuts? Definately...

LJ

[Chugalug2]

AP, you are obviously posting with a current knowledge of present day to day life in the Service, and what you say I find alarming. I assume that you are commissioned (but ready to be corrected) and thus have authority over those that are not. Would you, have you ever, told them that:-
the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about you
or is such advice only given in the Officers Mess? As to comparing military service to civilian employment, you can't be serious, can you? We are talking about a disciplined fighting service, not about taking the bucket and spade brigade to Malaga.

I'm not sure really what you mean by the collective RAF anyway. My RAF was my own Sqn at my own Station. Of course there were frictions, sometimes between the two, but the Sqn was my RAF, with a boss who would fight on our behalf if need be. We knew that he would give it his all if anyone of us had personal or compassionate problems. "He" was any of the bosses that I had.

Now I know all this is old stuff. I am old stuff, but it is such old stuff that is essential if you are going to send men and women to war. This is the stuff that VSOs should be preoccupied with, not telling JOs that the Service doesn't give a sh*t but rather ensuring that it does give a sh*t! What is their job about if it isn't that?

If you think that you are poorly paid then tell me when those who serve were otherwise paid? Being an RAF officer isn't just a job, it's being able to serve your country. More old stuff; patriotism (sorry, just used the "p" word!). We are very close to being told that those who serve don't give a sh*t for their Service or their country. I don't believe that is true. Am I wrong?

I PVR'd. As mopardave says:
When you stop enjoying the work, move on

So I did, but I wasn't encouraged to do so in the way that Haraka was. No, to answer your question, that isn't leadership in my book.

P.S. Good post Leon!

[cheese bobcat]

Not long before I left the service, I flew to Gutersloh for the Christmas duty-free booze run (do those still exist?). The circuit was hell with aircraft in every direction.

A good few years later, I was tasked to do a trooping flight from Brize to the same German airfield in a good old Boeing 737. I warned my first officer that he would have to keep a very good lookout when we arrived there as it was likely to be bedlam!

On our arrival, there were no aircraft to be seen and the only sign of activity was some poor soul walking out to his Harrier and applying electric power to it and sadly walking back to his squadron.

This, I believe, is what's changed, little flying compared to the old days.

[mopardave]

Chugalug2.....agreed! My own experiences were that at a "local level" during my time in the TA and in the emergency services.....you bet your boots we cared. Both about each other and the job in hand. But the reality is none of us are indispensable and political expediency means that we were/are just part of the big sausage machine. My son was asked to reconsider his decision to leave the army that he loved.....he had much more to give and they (at "local level") knew it. He was also told, with the whole options for change situation, that he wasn't guaranteed a job in 12 months time! He asked my advice and I told "don't get bent out of shape son.....just go with your gut instinct etc, etc".......and with a heavy heart he hit the eject button. Sure, at unit level, they were disappointed........did the CDS loose any sleep......I doubt it! Grab the opportunities where you can.......then eject when your heart's no longer in it and don't be under any illusions. I really do suspect that the VSO in question was just issuing a little wake up call meant with no malice.

[BEagle]

For those who think that I'm out of touch with the RAF of today, sorry, but you're wrong...

Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.

Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....

In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.

Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.

It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?

Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.

[Albert Another]

And, as with others, taxing my gratuity would be the final straw!

Ditto.

If I heard that my gratuity was going to be taxed I would leave ASAP.

[Hueymeister]

So when are the newbies getting their flying pay these days?

[Chugalug2]

Reading between the lines here (and quite possibly coming to the wrong conclusion, if so please advise), it strikes me that the big change is in the Powers of a Subordinate Commander, as it used to be styled. The ability to make things happen, and make them happen quickly if required, meant that a boss could sort out a compassionate situation within a few hours.

Such happened while I was away down the route. My wife's father died at home in Peru, her brother sent a telegram from the USA saying that he would book both of them MIA-LIM if she could make it for the flight. With no way of replying (no phones!) she walked down to the Guardroom from our Hullavington OMQ and poured out her heart to the duty RAFP Corporal. He in turn contacts my boss (at 0700!) who contacts BN to reserve her a seat on the midday Washington flight, contacts his Flt Cdr to tell him to run the Sqn UFN, piles into his mini, scoops up wife and hastily packed suitcase, and sets off at alarming speed for BN. They just make it, she's last aboard and the door closes behind her for departure. He then drives to the Sqn at LYN, contacts BDLS at Washington, requesting she be met and taken between the Washington airports for her flight to MIA. All goes to plan, she meets brother, and they fly to LIM...

Meanwhile, boss realises I know nothing of all this, sends signal to Lajes relating brief synopsis and will meet me on arrival LYN. He does so, first aboard and asking anxiously if I had received his signal and was it OK with me (ie wife now on way to Peru!)? I reassure him and indeed thank him for all his efforts. Wife eventually returns and we go together to thank him again and present him with a stuffed Llama which is received in a dubious but polite manner...

Now, this sort of thing didn't happen every day of course, but word got around like wild fire nonetheless. Boss's points go up several notches as all realise that next time it could be them he's looking out for. I'm told that all this is centralised these days by various desks and offices, which defeats the whole point. As stated before, the RAF is your Sqn/Unit/Wing etc, with appropriate support from outside the Station gates. If the boss can do nothing except put requests through channels then it is no longer he that is seen to be resolving (or not) the issue. The bean counters have removed his authority and hence his ability to maintain morale. They know the price of everything and the value of nothing...

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I'm told that all this is centralised these days by various desks and offices, which defeats the whole point. Ah, I think you are missing the point; having dedicated people that do this as their main job and have access to assets such as National Standby or 32 Sqn aircraft makes things better, not worse. A sqn boss may get lots of brownie points organizing something adhoc, but I'd rather have a specialist sorting it out, not someone that may never have done it before.

You are right in another sense though, in that the levers to retain people aren't held by sqns, wings or stns. Yes, they might be able to get you off a det or enable you to have a bit more time at home in times of trouble, but ultimately it will be pay, pensions, postings and lifestyle that hold people in, and a lot of those aren't even controlled by VSOs.
the RAF is your Sqn/Unit/Wing etc,
Personally I think that is a very insular view of things that doesn't reflect the modern services. I spend a large chunk of my working week dealing with tri-service HQs, other stations, services, operational theaters etc and I know a lot of people will be the same. I would go so far as to say that despite wearing a blue uniform, a lot of the time I don't even feel like the RAF is my service!

Different things will keep different people in and you will never be able to retain everyone. Some will want more time in the cockpit, some will want a variety of postings and some interesting ops whereas others won't want to move or deploy away from family. Most will want more money but unless people are already reasonably happy or there is a very large chunk of it, money won't hold people in forever.

To answer your earlier question, no I have not told anyone that the RAF doesn't give a sh*t about them using those words, but I have told them using the same words as Leon. Everyone want's different things from life, and when the RAF is no longer what you want, it is time to leave.

[RetiredBA/BY]

For those who think that I'm out of touch with the RAF of today, sorry, but you're wrong...

Last year I was chatting with the boss of a squadron which operates quite modern multi-pilot aircraft. A thoroughly nice chap, he told me that many of his pilots were PVR'ing and there wasn't anything he could actively do to persuade them otherwise. "So I guess it won't be long before I'll be doing the same", he concluded.

Doing my PVR porridge, a fast jet DeskO bounced into the office I was using at Binnsworth. "Got an ATPL?", he asked. "Yes". "Lucky blighter, I wish I was in your shoes"....

In the end I only used my ATPL for FI/FE work on light aircraft - although there was a possibility I might have needed a Type Rating for the instructional and development work on the military aircraft programme on which I was working after I'd left the Service.

Some have written that 'airline' pay is the main attraction for many PVR'ing pilots. "The job is very boring, but they do at least hose you down with dosh", as one of my airline pilot FIs explained a year or so ago.

It isn't really likely that there could be a substantial pay rise for military aircrew - but is money the only reason people seem to be leaving in the numbers some are claiming?

Anyway, for those staying in, I hope you'll have the enjoyment I had - for most of my time.

Aren't you the guy who thinks that pilots leave the RAF for civil aviation to " sit in the RHS of a 737 to fly drunken oiks to various waterholes" ? That crass statement strongly suggests to me you are completely out of touch with the civil aviation world, perhaps too much time on Prune. ! Just take a look at the types British airlines are flying, all possibilities for ex RAF pilots: A380, 330, 340' 320, 350 coming, plus 747, 757, 767, 777, 787 plus the workhorse 737.

Add to that significantly reduced time to command due to expansion makes the civil world extremely attractive to many !

Money is certainly not the only reason pilots are leaving, there are many other factors, including , not least, the opportunity to take control of your own lifestyle and determine your own future.

[Chugalug2]

AP, as I said previously, you have the knowledge and experience of the modern Air Force and I don't, so I bow to you in that respect. On the other hand, I have experienced the Air Force that I described earlier. I'm sure that yours, with its specialist and centralised services, be they for compassionate, joint, personnel, etc, purposes, is the more efficient.

My comment would be that morale is less moved by efficiency, real or supposed, than by personal involvement. The efforts made on our behalf by various bosses often scored negative brownie points, if by that term you infer career enhancing reputation with the CoC. One of them took on the NAAFI when his Sqn first line servicing flight night shifts were denied tea and buns from the NAAFI wagon as it was deemed uneconomical providing them. He engaged a local trader (this was at Changi), agreed a menu and prices for bacon butties etc, charges for rent and power (via Stn Svcs Flt I think), so much for the Sqn Fund, and the rest for the trader. Luckily the Stn Cdr supported him to the hilt having been told that it was essential for Operational Efficiency that the refreshments be provided. A very senior man from NAAFI HQ London flew out in vain to close down this challenge to its Sole Trader rights. Long after I left, and after a change of a/c type, the arrangement lasted until the UK Military withdrawal from Singapore. Probably didn't harm the boss's career prospects much, but certainly boosted morale amongst his Ground Engineers.

On the issue of ground engineers, Centralised Servicing replaced Sqn First Line Servicing at Fairford. The old rapport between Air and Ground Crews seemed thus threatened. The two Sqn bosses agreed to adopt one each of the two Eng Wg Sqns, creating the same friendly competition in the Gnd Crews. Naked subversion of someone or other's Grand Projet no doubt, but again morale was maintained. People aren't units of production, they are human beings; irrational, emotional, subject to good and bad days, but if treated right will always respond positively. Given a good boss people got treated right. I must confess that is the one weakness in my cunning plan, and not all bosses were good. I was lucky, but the words babies and bathwater also come to mind.

Anyway, we are fated to disagree I fear. Thank you for your forbearance, AP. And I was certain that you would have never told anyone that which was said to Haraka. All the more reason for condemning the VSO who did, in my view.

[Chugalug2]

B48N

Different Boss, I had been ground toured between on another Grand Projet called Operation Trenchard, that envisaged putting the entire Operational Data for mounting a large scale airlift onto Automatic Data Processing (ie a computer). We went to Blandford Forum to learn about programming and thence to Old Sarum for the project.

Mercifully the Treasury turned off the money tap or I'm sure we would have produced Mediator/Linesman again (worth we were told only its weight in scrap copper). Every time a Herc flew over I looked up wistfully. Eventually I was called into the boss's office who said, "If I were to say that there is a shortage of pilots at Lyneham and that if you are inter..". The rest was drowned in my whoop of joy and he merely added, "I rather thought that might be your reaction, so goodbye and good luck". So short toured and no regrets!

[k3k3]

In 1976, while I was a lowly SAC stationed at Brüggen, my mother was taken seriously ill. The doctor in the hospital asked if there was anything she needed, she said I want my son, he's in the airforce in Germany. The doctor phoned the CIO and explained the situation. The CIO called Innsworth, they worked out who I was and set the wheels in motion. I was on late shift and had been out and about, when I got back to my room to get changed for work there was a note on the door saying " Come to work, don't wear uniform", once I got to work my flight commander told what was going on, as it was too late to go to the bank he gave me £100 cash and said pay me back when you get back. A staff car took me back to the block where I packed a bag and I was then taken back to the airfield where a 60 sqn Pembroke was waiting, I was flown to RNAS Lee on Solent where an RN staff car took me to the hospital in Portsmouth where my mother was in intensive care.

So, within three hours of me reading the note I was by my mothers bedside.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Great story, but I don't see how 40 year old examples of successful compassionate cases effect current pilot retention. Having seen the modern compassionate system at work on Ops and in the UK and proudly been a part of missions where we literally couldn't have got people to their loved ones much quicker, I'd say it still works very well today.
Any chance we can get the thread back on topic?...

[Brian 48nav]

I agree with your plea to get back to the thread and having broken my own rule of not commenting on issues I know nothing about, have deleted my post.

Except to say that if any of my teenage grandchildren expressed an interest in applying to be an RAF pilot, I would fully support them as would my son.

[57mm]

Brian 48nav, your moniker made me wonder what plans there are for the GR4 WSOs once that force is retired in 2020, or whenever.

[Canute]

Do you want fries with that?

[bspatz]

Of interest on the last two occasions that I have attended a function at units where my son has been stationed I have sat next to a pilot who has rejoined the RAF having spent a period working for an airline. Both cited the same reasons for rejoining; lack of stimulation, lack of comradeship and poor working conditions. It seems to me that this is not a one way flow and it would be interesting to see some stats on the numbers of pilots who rejoin and how long after retiring.

[Brian 48nav]

I left the Herc' fleet in '73.

I gather from other threads that there may be a need for navs on the Poseidon - at 70 I think I'm a tad too old!

Canute

Made I larf!

[MPN11]

I was 'facilitated' to talk to my (serving) wife on ASMA between Stanley and Waddington when my father was dying of cancer, and to discuss whether I should be short-toured down there and screw someone elses' life. I stayed, and made it to my father's bedside with a few days to spare (not that he was in a state to really notice, I suspect).

My thanks to both OC Ops for facilitating that. It meant a lot.

[FJ2ME]

Some of you will, and already have, disagreed with this, but actually, it all boils down to money in the end, and feeling valued by the organisation. If you are paid more money, you can put up with more nonsense, hence why we pay our Loan Service personnel a premium. When the nonsense increases seemingly without limit and the take home pay actually goes down, along with the pension (I'm thinking the CAAS rebanding exercise for those in SFA) then of course people are miffed. I'll give you some examples of common disgruntlements what i mean by it all coming down to money and value:

1. Too much trivia and not enough flying. VALUE. Why do I as a professional operator of multi-million pound equipment directly delivering air power have to be patronised to by some ill-educated twerp about something I am perfectly capable of doing through a god-given common sense. Example, the Defence Information Management Passport, the GPC users course, the UK matrix test for a F600. All set up for perfectly good reasons for people who know no better. The 3 instructors on most OCUs established for 8 or so don't have time or space for this cr@p so employ someone to make it go away-can't, no money. Result, personnel feel undervalued. However, pay them more salary and they would give less of a sh!t.

2. Said operator of multimillion pound air power delivery system can see a much better way of approaching a process. Can't because its all to diffiuclt to get aggreement between contractor, security idiots and procurement idiots. Result, wasted money on poor procurements, wasted time on unneccessary process = undervalued personnel. Pay them more salary, they would give less sh!t.

3. Cannot get wiley contractor to even commit to fix faults or admit they exist in your MQ, personnel is distracted by home situation and family are unhappy. Solved by money because if you were paid super-well you would just get a man in to fix it and screw the contractor.

4. Exhausted family, unpredictable routine, etc. Pay enough to get some help around the house, a babysitter every now again, zen restored. More money.

So, cynically, most of this can be, if not fixed, offset at least by more money. Since the RAF is so fond of contractors, why don't we all become self-employed contractors? The RAF would have to pay say £250,000 a year for the use of one JO pilot for a year, after 6 years initial RoS upon initial training. So no 3rd tourist or older would be retained at all unless they were promoted. Instead, they just bought in the services of a suitably qualified person. In return, no housing, no pension commitment, no schooling allowance, no uniform, no ancilliary non-employment related training or quals would be provided. An unending joker card was issued to be smashed in the face of any blunty waiving an DLP online learning course, or mandatory seminar workshop at you. And in return you flew. Lots. And other people untangled the contractor's wiley lies, and un-fu@ked their sh!t documents and their useless equipment. Other people argued with security over devices and processes already used by thousands of organizations more valuable than ours, and other people had to sit in a room being shouted at by the regiment. I would sign up for that tomorrow. I think the RAF gets pretty poor value out of it support services, and I think in most cases I could do better for myself on my own, with enough money. Medical? BUPA. SFA? More money, buy own house. MT? Own car, more money, not so bothered about using for work. JPA? Sweet FA more like. The odd thing is, I bet if you added it all up, my idea with the £250,000 salary would actually be cheaper than what they do now. You could even call it, Professional Aviator or FTRS or whatever you liked. You could even give it a different badging, etc. If this went along with people getting accredited training in the first place then they could make their own choices at the end of the RoS and there would be a 2-way street, rather than the simple one-way street of simply being told you are going to have waste more of your most productive years working for an organisation that doesn't value you just to qualify for less pension than they said they would pay you.

As the beardy knight once said, train people so they can leave at any point, treat them so they don't want to. I wish so very much the RAF would apply that. But it won't so people will continue to leave, and people with more egg on their hat will continue to believe it doesn't matter just as long as teenagers with 5 GCSEs are willing to turn up to Cranwell on the vague hope of one day sitting in a typhoon. For those of us who have been here a few years it feels like someone who doesn't know what they are doing is playing with the Chernobyl fuel rods here, and trying to find out, by turning up the BS and down the money, at what point the whole thing goes bang. I don't think we are far off finding out...

Just my idle musings.

[Megaton]

Paying more money is most definitely not the answer. Having jumped ship from the RAF over a decade ago, I can assure you that more money does not make you happier or more tolerant. More money doesn't make you feel more valued, doesn't make your job more satisfying. Job satisfaction these days comes from within yourself and doing the best you can despite the best efforts of the people around you. You can certainly earn more money in the airlines but you necessarily be any happier for it.

[Professor Plum]

Fj2me,

Your idle musings are actually very similar to my idle musings/gripes.

Your Branson quote I think is spot on. And after all, he knows a thing or two about running companies and managing people. I'd rather listen to him than some twerp who got promoted not because he was good at his primary job, but because he was camped outside his bosses office, shamelessly butt snorkelling and organised the mess Xmas bash.

I'm finding that increasing amounts of triv are getting in the way of my primary job. Being patronised during d&i training, or having a regt cpl blow a gasket because I've had the nerve to call a rifle a gun, or something equally unimportant just p!sses me off.

It makes me think "do I get paid enough for this?" So I look elsewhere. There are plenty of jobs where I can go to work. Fly. Go home. I don't have to worry about being on some idiots naughty list because I haven't done yet another dle course (because I've been too busy doing my job!).

Would I have the same job satisfaction? Don't know.

The thing is, for me money does talk. I do understand that everyone's different though.

For me more money would mean I can buy my kids more awesome Christmas presents. That will make them happy. That makes me happy too. My wife can buy shoes willy nilly (she does anyway, but we might be able to afford it). That will make her happy. That makes me happy too. I can buy a bigger house. Go on nicer holidays (and without worrying about it being cancelled last minute because someone has got a twisted sock (again!) and can't deploy). All of this makes my family happy.

I might not enjoy my job as much, but it's not all about me. It's about my family. In my situation, money does talk.

If I end up flying drunks to the latest party beach as a capt in 10 years time on a 6 figure salary maybe I won't enjoy the job as much (I actually really enjoy RAF flying), but I'll still be flying. There are probably people reading this thread wondering what on earth we are moaning about. People who would love to fly but can't. I thank my lucky stars that I'm a pilot, and I would consider it a privilege to still be in a position to work for an airline in 10 years time.

I think every job has a "price" attached to it. I.e. What would you need to pay me to do this job? All compared with the skills I have and what job I think I can get. Whether it's airlines, RAF pilot, mc donalds, prostitute, portaloo cleaner.

Portaloo cleaner for example, the figure (for me) would be 6 figures. I doubt Anyone would pay me that much so that's a no go.

Mc Donald's don't pay enough either. So that's a no go.

Airlines are paying more than my minimum "price" so that is a goer.

The RAF are now starting to pay less than my minimum price to do that particular job.

That's just me though, I guess everyone's different.

[mftx7jrn]

I think Megaton touches on a really important point here. I jumped ship a couple of years ago for 'the promised land' of more money, more responsibility and, much more importantly, more quality of life (home every night, weekends off etc) but it does not necessarily make up for lack of job satisfaction. Yes, I love having all of my weekends with my family, yes I love being home every night, yes I enjoy payday that little bit more, but it is not strapping yourself to a £million military aircraft and going flying on operations, making a difference etc (you do clearly 'pay' for it in other ways though). Perhaps that is why the re-join stats are quite reasonable at the moment for all 3 services. Just my 10p's worth.

[charliegolf]

or having a regt cpl blow a gasket because I've had the nerve to call a rifle a gun

Don't you do that on purpose, just for fun?

CG

[Professor Plum]

CG,

Of course. As well as wearing aircrew boots, and Sqn t shirt, and forgetting my green card.

[charliegolf]

PP, my admiration is restored!:ok:

(I forgot about flying boots)

CG

[Al-bert]

Flying boots? Back in the good old days of SAR it was bedroom slippers or trainers that got to 'em! But then SAR Wing (pre SAR Force) wasn't really in the military - just like today! :}

[BEagle]

But think of it from the Rock Cpl's perspective! Teaching (whatever the current term for GDT is) to a bunch of aircrew who resent being there can't be much fun and certainly isn't what was shown in the recruiting brochure when he decided to become a Rock.

But remember - he's the one with the CS pellets! So you'd be wise not to annoy him.

The worst 'GDT' sessions I recall where those where someone behaved like an ar$e and annoyed the instructor - such as the miserable 10 Sqn navigator who complained about being told to extinguish his pipe on the firing range...:rolleyes: The 'respirator test facility' was like a London pea-souper (younger readers may need to Google that!) on that occasion...:(

As for calling a rifle a 'gun'...

4kU0XCVey_U

[alfred_the_great]

CG,

Of course. As well as wearing aircrew boots, and Sqn t shirt, and forgetting my green card.
It's amazing some people have the cheek to believe that the "2 winged master race" are over-paid c*nts of the highest order, who feel the need to belittle everyone around them in an attempt to make themselves feel better.

Well done for winding up a bloke who earns about a third as much as you do, and is trying to be equally professional.

Prick.

[FJ2ME]

Ah BEagle now you are showing your age....no CS pellets anymore and they can light as many of the GSR testing pellets they like since they are just inert disco smoke to test the seals, all done on a laptop. H&S is so all-encompassing now, that the "poor Regt cpl" has to have his own GSR on the whole time the respirators are tested lest he decide to sue HM for developing lung cancer when he's 78....

[charliegolf]

Lighten up Alf. The banter protocol between Rocks n Growbags is well developed and healthy. When at Halton for 2 weeks on a first aid instructor's course with 15 of them, I quickly became named, "Fat-Wallet" (Natwest Credit Card, remember?). I didn't feel belittled.

CG

[FJ2ME]

Fine with the banter, not fine with the ever increasing and self-licking lollipop courses and quals. Quite happy for them to strip their weapons and shoot their loads all day long, but I just resent the "2 hour lesson smashed into a 5 day space" nature of it all...

[DunWinching]

Of the hand held variety, aren't rifles the long ones where the bullets (or "cartridges" to the professionals) go in near the back and guns where the pellets go in the front and are pushed down with a stick? Bring back the SLR....

[staircase]

Interesting to read all this. I say interesting, because I am comparing it to my own experiences 40 years ago. (yeah I know – boring old to**er!)

I joined in 1968 and left in 1982, after PVR in 1978 and having to do 3 and a bit years before they would let me go on mutually agreeable terms.

After the application to PVR, I was summoned to talk to a Group Captain in Barnwood. I sat in his office for an hour whilst he listened to what I had to say. Most of what I said could be a précis of what I have read in these posts. When I had finished he said;

‘ may I sum up what you have said as poor leadership, bad management and over tasking?’ I could not have been the only one since soon after that I heard that the Robson Report was instigated.

Now what I said to him was my opinion, and I must say that some of my colleagues went on to their 16/38 point and thoroughly enjoyed it. In other words if you enjoy the life stay, and if you don’t do something about it. The mistake it seems to me is to regard what you said at the OASC as gospel. You change, get married and have kids, and the defence vote and task change, and therefore the job changes. Remember if the facts change then change your mind. A lot of people seem to equate it as joining the priesthood.

I left and started to look for an airline job at 32, just after Laker went broke, and in the midst of Thatcher’s recession. Most found it difficult to get a job cleaning aeroplanes, never mind flying them.

As a result I ended up flying night mails for less then I was getting as a Flt Lt. That company went broke, as did the Air taxi company, and Dan Air that I subsequently worked for. I did however enjoy airline work. I was no longer an Officer in a military service first, I was a pilot first and foremost, and every time I went to work I made the company I was working for money. I found that satisfying.

But know this, airline work has its draw backs. Sure, I never had to do time on long detachments, but with an airline you work when the public want to fly. That means flying Bank Holidays, weekends, Christmas and New Year, and just try and get any meaningful summer leave. In other words when your wife and kids would like you to be at home, then you are going to work. I also note that my flying hours as a charter pilot were 35% night shifts. That is flying all night, and then trying to sleep in a house with the kids on school holidays.

Then there is the roster problem. I mentioned over tasking as a reason to leave the service. Well in 35 years and 5 companies I never had one that did not run on an absolute minimum of crew. That means roster disruption and what the service would call over tasking. One aeroplane tech, one ATC strike, or one pilot sick then your diary for the next few days or weeks is toast.

Retired 7 years now, and all in the past but I would not have changed any of it, not even the Service bit. Before you decide to leave however remember about airline flying;

‘If you got paid as much as the mother in law thinks you get paid, got as much time off as the neighbours think you get off, and sleep with as many as the ladies working in the back as her in doors thinks you did, then it is a bloody good job.’

[MPN11]

GDT time, and my OH turns up [using her own tuned 9mm Browning ;)]. Regt Cpl duly patronises WRAF officer. "Load, Ready, Make Gun Go Bang".

Well, she drilled a large hole in the centre of the target, such that it needed re-facing instead of patching random holes around the periphery.

Regt Cpl retires in some confusion, never having seen anyone actually hit the middle bit before, never mind doing it with all 10 rounds.


She caused some surprise to a Ghurka RO at Bisley as well, when the target was wound back. His simple comment was "I don't think I would like to stand in front of her, Sahib." She and I placed 2nd and 1st in that day's Sweepstake competition :D

[Professor Plum]

Well done Alf!

👍

[m0nkfish]

I left this year after 16 years. Would definitely do it all again and it was with considerable reluctance that I turned down the PAS offers and several excellent tours from the poster.

In general I agree with pretty much all the points people have made on here. If the question is about improving service life then the hierarchy have a lot of work to do! If its purely a question of retaining people then, from my personnel experience money talks. Thats what would have kept me in anyway. A sizeable, mortgage/life changing, quantity of money! As divisive as FRI's are, flying pay is (IMHO) equally bad for morale. On my last Squadron I worked alongside people who had only just started getting SP and would never, realistically, be in a position to ever get to enhanced rate. Longer term, a totally separate pay scale for pilots is the only way to go.

I don't believe its mentioned enough on this thread the effect service life has on family, including the education of children, provision of medical and dental treatment and the employment prospects for spouses. This is the single biggest reason I left. Even if I earn a third of my final RAF salary, I am now in a part of the country I have decided to live in, my kids are in decent schools and will be able to stay in them for as long as we decide to stay where we are and my wife works (which she enjoys I might add!). When you look at combined salaries and the reduction in tax then take home pay is not that different, if not better and quality of life has gone up dramatically!

But I don't get to fly cool aircraft! Will never ever regret I joined the RAF.

[Brewers Droop]

Some really good comments on here.

Staircase - excellent post, particularly the bit about the need to re-evaluate as life and the job changes. Monkfish - Think you hit the nail on the head.

I think I need to see a Doctor - I’ve been in 25+ years and still, on balance, enjoy it and think I have a cool job. Is there something wrong with me or is this what being Institutionalised means?

Looking back I see three distinct periods in my RAF career. The first few years when everything was cool, fast and exciting with money only required for SOUP (Single Officer Unnecessary Purchases), congregating in crowded bars and being a hopeless romantic. I couldn’t understand why all the ‘old uns’ were so unhappy about everything.

Then the middle pre-marriage and family part when everything was still fast but not quite as cool and exciting as it had felt before. Infact, you sometime felt misery. The Boss talking about 'responsibility' and 'career profiles' and the money only stretching further because of the time spent in places with little to spend it on (except on Weber BBQs, Ray Bans and Mountain Dew). Also, an increased dislike of crowded bars. But the world had changed and the new cool was doing the job for real.

And then the current third stage of marriage and young children. where I am now. Suddenly the cool and exciting part seems less important and the need to provide for the family is everything. The family is the new cool and being away is really uncool. But there is also a memorable day when you realise you have become an ‘old un' and actually enjoy being miserable. Also everyone on your IOT left 10 years ago or are 2 or more ranks higher...

I also understand there may be a fourth stage when the kids leave the nest?

Many have decided to leave during these stages for many different reasons and good luck to them. I have so far tried to make the RAF work for me and my family - contrary to popular belief I have found Desk Officers humans trying to do a hard job and, as such, open to an honest discussion and (for me anyway) a compromise that suits my needs and the RAF. One day, what the RAF want me to do, or the package they give me to do it, may diverge considerably from what's best for my family and I will leave without hesitation. This could be 6 months or even 6 years. Perhaps, like many, there may be that little final straw that breaks.

Ultimately, I have learnt two things

Lesson 1. It’s your life and you are unique – your decisions should be made on what you think is best for you and your family.

Lesson 2. Back to lesson 1.

[staircase]

BD, thank you for your comments regarding my post.

We all are aware of how the circumstances of one’s life change, with growing older, marriage and being a parent.

How does the job change? In my own case I applied to join in the Autumn of 1966, passed A levels in 1967, and actually ‘signed on’ in 1968. I did not want to be a fighter pilot, but to fly large aeroplanes around the empire. We still had bases around the globe, and the size of Transport Command (remember 1966) made BOAC look like an Air Taxi company. Since the Sands report, the future was large aeroplanes, and the only modern combat aeroplane we had was the Lightning. If there was a job to do it was in a Shackleton chasing Russian subs, or flying a large transport supporting the army in far away places.

By 1971 when I reached my first squadron, (a large aeroplane one!) we were, as a nation, in retreat from nearly all our overseas bases, and Harrier, Phantom, Jaguar were all coming into service. By the end of my first tour there had been a redundancy scheme for multi engine aircrew, and Air Support Command, and 18 Group were a shadow of what they had been 8 years earlier. It was CFS or OC GD at RAF Nowhere.

The retrenchment also meant a lot of base closures here in the UK. It seemed no sooner had I walked into a Station, then it was scheduled for closure and we were moved on. You would have difficulty counting the number of RAF stations that have closed over the last few decades.

Given the above, and a realisation that whilst NATO held the peace in Europe, the fact was that the Russians were not going to come, and that if they did my taking a bunch of Jet Provosts to West Freugh was not going make a great deal of difference to the result one way or the other. I ask you TacEval on training stations…?

Chuck in an offer of a Phantom course. That meant 3 months fast jet lead in course at Valley, then 6 months in Brawdy, then 6 months in Conningsby, then a posting to Scotland. Effectively 18 months away from home. The wife, holding my 6 month old son, talked it over with me and left me in no doubt about her feelings…..

Things changed and it was time to be off!