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ChrisJ800
20th Oct 2016, 07:21
It looks like the Schiaparelli lander has joined the Beagle 2 as another lost European lander!

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/oct/19/esa-exomars-scientists-wait-and-hope-as-fate-of-mars-schiaparelli-lander-remains-uncertain

sitigeltfel
20th Oct 2016, 07:23
I think they can now rename it "Scrap-arelli"!

KelvinD
20th Oct 2016, 07:35
I thought Beagle 2 landed successfully but failed to open a solar array, rendering it "dumb".
Still a huge waste of money, if you ask me. So what if they find evidence of water, past or present? What does that add to those of us here on earth?

B Fraser
20th Oct 2016, 07:45
What does that add to those of us here on earth ?


It adds to the sum of human knowledge. It adds to our imagination of what else there is to be found. It adds to the argument for sending men to Mars. Apart from that....nothing.


When the apes came down from the trees, some were curious as to what lay behind some distant hills. Ultimately, we walked out of Africa and populated the planet. Those that did not join them are still sitting at the foot of the tree, pelting each other with dung.

oldchina
20th Oct 2016, 08:17
Who thought giving it an Italian name was a good idea?

Their cars can look good and be fun for a while, but on a cold dark night you start wondering whether you will arrive safe and sound.

ChrisJ800
20th Oct 2016, 08:40
Giovani Schiaparelli discovered the 'canals' on Mars!

ORAC
20th Oct 2016, 09:47
Presumably the lander was shot down by a Tharkian then?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsoom

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tharks

funfly
20th Oct 2016, 09:50
I also think it was shot down by the locals.

Haraka
20th Oct 2016, 09:59
Surrendered?

GearDown&Locked
20th Oct 2016, 10:07
Fliegerabwehrkanone from the Curiosity Rover...? :}

vapilot2004
20th Oct 2016, 10:15
That's too bad. I did read the lander had a very limited science mission and the primary focus was successfully landing something on the surface of Mars. That's no easy task. The Russians have failed more than they have succeeded, and NASA, with the best record of anyone at this, has had their share of not sticking the landings. We lobbed more than a few clunkers at the Martian surface in the 1990s.

I think they can now rename it "Scrap-arelli"!


This is the kind of comment that keeps JB lively. :}

wiggy
20th Oct 2016, 10:20
I wouldn't get to wound up about it being an EASA mission (the lander had limited engineering objectives, hopefully some of which have been achieved), in the scheme of things right back from the 60's Mars "probes" have had a very high failure rate, regardless of the nation of origin.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/space/moon-mars/a17407/mars-mission-failures/

PDR1
20th Oct 2016, 10:52
Mars is a difficult problem - too far away for remote control, atmosphere too thin for traditional aero-braking, an atmosphere which creates coffin-corners in terms of mach numbers and reynolds numbers for "winged" vehicles. If I had a pound for every attempted mars-plane which had failed I'd have nearly enough to buy a dollar or a euro in 2017...

PDR

Wetstart Dryrun
20th Oct 2016, 11:47
...so maybe the Martians don't want to join the EU?

NutLoose
20th Oct 2016, 12:12
They should have enrolled it with the AA, then called them out.

NutLoose
20th Oct 2016, 12:21
http://spaceflight101.com/exomars/wp-content/uploads/sites/79/2016/03/ExoMars2016_Baikonur_20151225_IMG_2865_1280-800x445.jpg


Let's hope there is nobody at home to fix legs to it and send it back

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/War_of_the_Worlds_shoot.jpeg

oldchina
20th Oct 2016, 13:26
In the end it hit some rocks and was destroyed.
Capt Schettino was at the controls.

wiggy
20th Oct 2016, 13:28
PDR1

Mars is a difficult problem - too far away for remote control, atmosphere too thin for traditional aero-braking, an atmosphere which creates coffin-corners in terms of mach numbers and reynolds numbers for "winged" vehicles.

Indeed. Looking at most planets they have either got enough atmosphere to allow purely aerodynamic solutions to a landing, e.g. the Earth, Venus, or they have no atmosphere, such as the Moon, so you can get away purely with propulsive methods to achieve a soft landing and do not have aerodynamic concerns.

OTOH as you say Mars is an awkward so and so, a decent amount of gravity, enough atmosphere to demand that aerodynamic considerations are taken into account at high speed/high altitude and allow aero braking via heatshields and parachutes intially, but once decelerated aerodynamically not enough atmosphere to support a parachute soft landing - though I have vague recollections of one US probe using a parachute and airbags. In any event there is almost inevitably an awkward and complex transition from aerodynamic to powered descent at lowish altitude.....which looking at the latest news from EASA is where this attempted landing went wrong.

G-CPTN
20th Oct 2016, 14:07
Schiaparelli Mars probe's parachute 'jettisoned too early' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-37715202).

racedo
20th Oct 2016, 15:31
Do do do.............. another one bites the dust
and another one gone
and another one gone
another one bites the dust........................

oldchina
20th Oct 2016, 16:12
The locals only want to be left in peace with their Mars Bars.
Then every so often some thumping great thing falls on their head.
It destroys the vegetable patch and the cows refuse to give milk.
No wonder they've now set up an automatic anti-missile system.
It's almost perfect, just can't detect incoming US junk for now.

ORAC
20th Oct 2016, 16:41
If this turns out to be another imperial/metric screw up it will be very embarrassing.......

GordonR_Cape
20th Oct 2016, 17:50
My guess would be that a malfuntion in the radar altimeter triggered premature shutdown of the parachute and rocket sequence.

At least there was scientific and navigation data transmission before loss of signal.

tony draper
20th Oct 2016, 17:54
Just seems to be a repeat of a mission that has already done by NASA years ago? :confused:

Peter-RB
20th Oct 2016, 19:46
Seems premature ejection of the European Parachute is the fault Martian Gravity did the rest.....

Well what the hell did we all expect..? a committee of Europeans would never be able to design a Camel;)

Sallyann1234
20th Oct 2016, 20:42
oldchina
I wasn't referring to the Parachute comment.

And as for ESA projects:
https://www.gsa.europa.eu/european-gnss/galileo/galileo-european-global-satellite-based-navigation-system

wiggy
21st Oct 2016, 08:04
Another thread ruined by the idiots.:ugh:

+1..

As mentioned earlier both our American and Russian friends have over the years had problems soft landing anything on Mars.

ChrisJ800
22nd Oct 2016, 01:32
Looks like they have found it pancaked in.

vapilot2004
22nd Oct 2016, 06:33
I didn't read the most recent, but the telemetry indicated a short engine burn and an early parachute release. I am assuming this is how we know?

De_flieger
22nd Oct 2016, 06:57
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2110012-mars-orbiter-spots-new-crater-that-may-be-exomarss-lost-lander/
Apparently they have before and after photos of the intended landing zone from the Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter that (in the after shots) show what looks like a parachute and about a kilometre away, an impact crater.

chevvron
22nd Oct 2016, 13:49
I suppose someone did think to put some fuel in it to power the retro rockets.

Peter-RB
22nd Oct 2016, 18:17
They could have put the wrong Spark Plug in, or missed out a coil or condenser..?..or maybe the point have stuck together...;)

Windy Militant
22nd Oct 2016, 23:15
I know what happened.;)
https://images.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tvacres.com%2Fimages%2Fweapon_marvin_mod ulator.jpg&f=1

vapilot2004
23rd Oct 2016, 01:53
Thank you De flieger.

The ESA methane sniffer is doing ok, so the question is, will the EU fund another shot at at - this time with an even more elaborate (and expensive) lander. They should. That's how NASA did it. You don't give up when it gets hard. You keep trying and make adjustments along the way.

Ogre
23rd Oct 2016, 11:26
On a slight tangent, I was watching that nice Mr Wayne and his musical version of "War of the Worlds" today.

When it got to the very end and it played the clip of the modern mars lander making it to Mars then suddenly going off the air, I wondered if anyone at the ESA thought to look for a green flare coming from mars, with a green mist trailing behind it.....

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
24th Oct 2016, 15:08
and slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us…

Expatrick
24th Oct 2016, 15:26
and slowly, and surely, they drew their plans against us…

Oh please, not another Brexit thread!

hiflymk3
24th Oct 2016, 17:14
Another ESA failure, I mean, it's not rocket scien...

ORAC
24th Oct 2016, 20:53
I still have a gut feeling that the Europeans copied extant NASA software and modified it - and somewhere along the line a FPS to MPS conversion wasn't made.....

G-CPTN
25th Oct 2016, 00:10
I still have a gut feeling that the Europeans copied extant NASA software and modified it - and somewhere along the line a FPS to MPS conversion wasn't made.....
That was my suggestion further up (though I cannot find it now).

Woops! - it was here:- http://www.pprune.org/9547090-post2727.html

Ogre
25th Oct 2016, 10:47
Or tried to run software containing fixed 24 bit numbers when the velocities are real numbers....

http://www.cs.usyd.edu.au/~alum/patriot_bug.html

wiggy
25th Oct 2016, 12:55
I still have a gut feeling that the Europeans copied extant NASA software and modified it

Out of interest why would "the Europeans" need to copy NASA software? There are more than enough Ph.D's at the likes of ESA, CNRS et.al around Europe to write original software, error free or not.

KenV
25th Oct 2016, 13:21
Out of interest why would "the Europeans" need to copy NASA software?Why? There's an ages old saying: "Don't reinvent the wheel."
Need? Zero "need" to copy. But reusing existing software is good engineering practice.

GearDown&Locked
25th Oct 2016, 13:28
Software used in innumerous spacecrafts, both NASA and ESA, comes from the same company: Critical Software (http://www.criticalsoftware.com/en/media-centre/short-news)

GD&L

wiggy
25th Oct 2016, 13:36
Interesting, I would have thought there would have been some logic in not sharing code but what you (all) say makes sense, many thanks.

GordonR_Cape
23rd Nov 2016, 17:46
The ESA preliminary report indicates a problem with corrupted IMU data fed to the GNC computer (resulting in negative altitude calculated), and premature sequence triggered: Schiaparelli: Esa gives update on Mars crash investigation - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38082636)

Schiaparelli's inertial measurement unit (IMU) had earlier sensed rotational accelerations in the probe when the parachute first opened that very briefly stepped outside what had been anticipated. The data became "saturated".

Unfortunately, when this information was then taken in by the GNC system, the probe incorrectly updated where it thought it was in the descent. And when the data from the doppler radar subsequently kicked in, the error already in play was propagated forward.

All this information was discerned from telemetry that Schiaparelli sent back as it hurtled down through the Martian atmosphere.

bbrio1
24th Nov 2016, 16:52
It adds to the sum of human knowledge. It adds to our imagination of what else there is to be found. It adds to the argument for sending men to Mars. Apart from that....nothing.


When the apes came down from the trees, some were curious as to what lay behind some distant hills. Ultimately, we walked out of Africa and populated the planet. Those that did not join them are still sitting at the foot of the tree, pelting each other with dung.
B Fraser, you nailed it. Thank you.