Pilot career related degree and appropriate college and/or university

[Romasik]

Hi all,

Need an advise for my son. He wants to be an airline pilot. Good. Now we have to think wider: what to do if one day he is not medicaly fit to fly any more or cannot continue flying for whatever other reason. So we are looking for an idea about a college or university course that 1. Helps him to get a job as a pilot. 2. Helps him in his pilot carreer. 3. Backs him up if he is not able to continue as a pilot at some moment in future. 4. Allows him to built up experience for the new job while flying.
Could be too much to ask for, but why not? The only qualification that jumps to my mind and meets all the above criteria, is air crash investigation. And the place is Embry Riddle. That is with my limited knowledge of western educatuon system.
Appreciate other ideas, gentlemen:).
Specifically looking for canadian options. If not, then anywhere.

[bafanguy]

Romasik,

The question you ask is a good one, worth serious thought and frequently debated with valid cases to be made on the several sides. Below is a link to the website of the recognized accreditation organization for university aviation programs. It might be a good place to start. I see a few Canadian schools listed if that's your priority.

Are you involved in aviation yourself ?


Aviation Accreditation Board International Accredited Programs (http://www.aabi.aero/programs.html)

[Romasik]

Thanks for the good start!:)
Yes, I am involved in aviation as an airline captain. Somewhere in the Middle East. But I came from a very different world (USSR that is) with a very different education system, so I'm not familiar with the other one. Just general ideas at the moment. My son is a product of the British system though. We are looking to continue on the West where he mentally belongs.

[Piltdown Man]

As your son is in the British system, why not keep him there? A strange paradox is that a non-aviation related degree is a better degree for aviation than an aviation one. Why? Because it equips you better for a life outside thus making you a more interesting person to be employed by an airline. Like a diamond, the more facets you have, the more valuable you are.

[SeventhHeaven]

As someone with a master's in engineering & a fATPL, and through speaking with people involved in pilot recruitment, I am not convinced you become more valuable the more facets you have.

It definitely makes you stand out from the pack and makes your CV more noticeable, but the vast majority of pilots don't have degrees. The (people) skills you learn at uni are not per se the same as they want you to display during the interview/group assignments/etc.

For example, I started flying after getting my degree and working for a few years. I have plenty of experience working with professionals/colleagues on long term projects worth millions, but when I was invited to an interview day, I had a group assignment with a bunch of 20-24 year olds. Lovely people, but oh so green behind their ears.. I certainly didn't expect that!

Get a degree because you want a solid backup plan, or because you want to develop yourself and gain a more worldly view. But I'd advise against picking a degree willy nilly just because you think it might lead to a flying job. It most likely wont help (directly), and 'aviation' degrees are a terrible backup plan should the flying not work out.

I hope this does not come across as being negative just for the sake of it. I hope you and your son figure things out! All the best!

[Seabreeze]

The accreditation board referred to by bafanguy only deals with US universities.

There are a number of others in other countries (e.g. the EU, Canada and Australia) , but it depends what nationality your son has. In my opinion, stick to the same nationality. If Russian, perhaps think of changing.....

It is much easier to be employed in the country of your nationality, than in another country (if you are inexperienced).

[Genghis the Engineer]

Before I say anything -a bit of a caveat. I've flown in Canada, and also worked with universities there, but I'm very far from an expert on the specific question. I'm a Brit with a lot of professional links with the USA, and that's most of my expertise.


Firstly, Europe and the USA have somewhat different views on a degree for pilots. In the USA, a very large proportion of airline employers want to see a degree. In reality however, they don't really value the degree - they are simply using it because they're too lazy to assess the fundamental intellect of their candidates. In Europe, including the UK, a degree is largely seen as an irrelevance, as a piece of paper, for pilot job candidates - the only thing that's really being asked about is the experience and skill level of the pilot, assuming that they are suitably qualified.

The US based "aviation studies" or equivalent degrees being packaged often with CPL courses are generally only of use to circumvent the airline application processes. Educationally, they're extremely lightweight and of no wider value.


There are degree level qualifications that are clearly of real value to a professional pilot. Consider, for example, management degrees, languages, or relevant sciences such as psychology. All of these are real solid degrees that provide learning that a professional pilot may be able to use in the future.

The concept of a "backup" in my opinion is flawed. If somebody graduates in, say, biology or accountancy, then goes off and spends several years qualifying as a pilot, but that doesn't work out. Well, they are then trying to enter the science or accountancy job market with academic qualifications several years old compared to their competitors, and potentially with higher salary expectations. I don't see that as an advantage.

There is an exception - aeronautical / aerospace engineering is a very tough, serious degree. A lot of aerospace engineering employers might be persuaded to accept that the flying was valid professional experience and training, and that there wasn't in fact a career break. However, AeroEng (and I type as somebody with two AeroEng degrees and who has been involved in delivering those degrees in several countries) is a very tough subject, taking twice as long to study the basic qualification as it does to study for an ATPL, and requires a high level of interest in the subject and skill in mathematics and science, to graduate from. So it's a very tough route for a "backup".

I think that if the real interest is a "backup" serious consideration should be given to skills rather than education. The qualified swimming instructor or short order chef might be far better placed in that regard, than somebody with a several years old degree. BUT, this advice should be read the context that in the USA (and thus by extension, possibly Canada) does have this not deeply rational requirement to see a piece of paper saying "degree certificate" at the top to render somebody employable to an airline.


Finally - I'd absolutely agree with the people pointing out that a exceptionally important factor is the question of where your son has the right to live and work.

A note on Embry-Riddle. The university sector does not highly rate ERAU, because it is mainly delivering vocational degrees and has very little involvement with research. or fundamental academic subjects For pretty much the same reasons, the aviation industry does highly regard ERAU - but the best degrees there for a pilot career are probably those delivered to people who have already qualified as aviation professions and are now trying to move themselves into more senior roles.

[bafanguy]

"The accreditation board referred to by bafanguy only deals with US universities. "

Seabreeze,

The Canadian universities on that list are on page two. :-)

Genghis makes many good points on this subject.

[Romasik]

As your son is in the British system, why not keep him there? A strange paradox is that a non-aviation related degree is a better degree for aviation than an aviation one. Why? Because it equips you better for a life outside thus making you a more interesting person to be employed by an airline. Like a diamond, the more facets you have, the more valuable you are.
Mainly because it's expensive :(
As for a non-aviation degree. It will degrade over years while being away from the subject. Ideally it should be something closely related to flight operations (accident investigation, CRM, management, aircraft performance, whatever else)

[Romasik]

As someone with a master's in engineering & a fATPL, and through speaking with people involved in pilot recruitment, I am not convinced you become more valuable the more facets you have.

It definitely makes you stand out from the pack and makes your CV more noticeable, but the vast majority of pilots don't have degrees. The (people) skills you learn at uni are not per se the same as they want you to display during the interview/group assignments/etc.

For example, I started flying after getting my degree and working for a few years. I have plenty of experience working with professionals/colleagues on long term projects worth millions, but when I was invited to an interview day, I had a group assignment with a bunch of 20-24 year olds. Lovely people, but oh so green behind their ears.. I certainly didn't expect that!

Get a degree because you want a solid backup plan, or because you want to develop yourself and gain a more worldly view. But I'd advise against picking a degree willy nilly just because you think it might lead to a flying job. It most likely wont help (directly), and 'aviation' degrees are a terrible backup plan should the flying not work out.

I hope this does not come across as being negative just for the sake of it. I hope you and your son figure things out! All the best!
These are the reasons in chronological order:
1. Helps him to get a job as a pilot.
2. Helps him in his pilot career.
3. Backs him up if he is not able to continue as a pilot at some moment in future.
4. Allows him to built up experience for the new job while flying.

First doesn't mean the most important. It may help in some circumstances . I.e. there was a huge aviation boom in Russia over the last 15 years. In so many cases just 3-4 years in the right seat straight from the flight school and you are a 320/737 captain. Guess what - in most companies aviation related higher education degree is a must there...

[Romasik]

The accreditation board referred to by bafanguy only deals with US universities.

There are a number of others in other countries (e.g. the EU, Canada and Australia) , but it depends what nationality your son has. In my opinion, stick to the same nationality. If Russian, perhaps think of changing.....

It is much easier to be employed in the country of your nationality, than in another country (if you are inexperienced).
Thanks. He has two options for now: Russia and Canada. This is to start from. Later on a relevant degree may help him to land a job in so many other places. Of course if he is lucky to quickly get a job in Canada, this will be it, I believe.

[Romasik]

Genghis,

Thanks a lot for taking time to share all these invaluable insider things.

Still, I stand that a thoroughly chosen relevant degree as a back up could be a very helpful matter.

Pilot job could end in a blink of an eye. Mainly for health reason. And all of a sudden you are nobody with no name. All the way from the helm of a superjumbo. It's not wise to miss opportunity to get proper degree if someone is able and willing to finance it.
The back up should be very practical, so that you can stay around it while flying. As I already mentioned: accident investigation, CRM, aircraft performance, general management and, as you mentioned, aeronautical/aerospace engineering. Looking for other ideas.

And, BTW, there is another real threat to the pilot job - automation. I'm pretty much sure in 10-20 years from now new cargo airplanes will fly without pilots, shortly after that followed by passenger aircraft supervised by a single pilot. Technology is already there. Implementation, testing, legal procedures will follow.
This should be a reason for very serious considerations in life and career planning. So, we are probably talking not just about back up...

[Genghis the Engineer]

accident investigation, CRM, aircraft performance, general management

Only the last of those being a degree subject. CRM could reasonably be regarded as an extension of psychology, and the others of aeronautical engineering.

But, as I said, be very aware both of the shelf life of knowledge, and that most degrees are not qualifications to practice. They are essentially routes into the most junior roles of professions, from where someone starts really learning. They are not equivalent to the specific qualification that is a pilot's licence. Hence my advocating skill and licence acquisition, rather than education, for this oft-mooted "backup".

[MaverickPrime]

I think Genghis is right here. I have a honours degreee, but it's not worth much other than being able to say I have a degree!

In the U.K. at least, a degree will not get you much more than an interview unless it is a 'proper' degree i.e. medicine, accountancy, engineering. But, as already stated those types of degrees have a shelf life.

If I could do it all again, take note of my age when I say this, I would not have went to uni. I could have worked for a few years to help pay for my flight training. However, I now have £19,700 in student debt from uni, something the student loans company will take me to the cleaners for when I reappear on the HMRC database, especially by the time I earn a captains salary.

When your son is a pilot, provided he's modest with his income and has LOL, he should have enough financial 'backup' to help him get back on his feet should the worst happen and he loses his job. That sounds a bit flippant, but hey that's life!

[bafanguy]

Romasik,

Many variations on a theme to your questions. I can bloviate from the front porch of Ye Olde Pilot Retirement Home and say what I wish I'd done.

The longer a person like your son, or any of us for that matter, flies for a living the more plausible the avenue of turning flying experience into non-flying aviation dollars becomes should that be necessary. It requires some prep work along the way by getting involved in things like sim/ground instructor, check airman, safety committee work where additional skills and experience can be gained (and contacts made). This may require working for a company (and/or a company having a union where such options exist) large enough to have these functions in-house. One example might be a person with a psych degree getting into the human factors arena in a safety organization. These committees are always in need of volunteers.

Aircraft dispatching also comes to mind. If a license is required in a particular country, the body of knowledge will be essentially identical to ATPL subjects and can be obtained along the way with minimal effort and expense. Just one idea...others may come to mind.

I've known people who did all of the above; they were the smart people.

Having your son aware of this stuff at the start is valuable and he's got the advantage of having you to advise him.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I wonder to what extent that the common reference to a degree as a backup for young people is rooted in parents in their 50s who remember a world where simply having a degree guaranteed a good job?

In my opinion, that world largely ceased to exist about 20 years ago, and both the need for a degree, and whether it's enough to get a professional job, have changed a great deal in the last quarter to half century.

[bafanguy]

"I wonder to what extent that the common reference to a degree as a backup for young people is rooted in parents in their 50s who remember a world where simply having a degree guaranteed a good job?"

Genghis,

Well, it's certainly been oversold in the USA...and continues to be.

As for US airlines requiring it from pilot applicants, it's necessary cuz they SAY it's required. Even with an airline listing a degree as "preferred", one has to ask how many of his competitors will still have one anyway. It's a jungle out there.

[Romasik]

Well, many thanks, dear colleagues.

The picture is a little bit more clear. As I looked through college courses, I found that those of them that stitched to pilot training are indeed of a little use for anything other than flying. And, yes, in many places they give advantage to job seekers. Anything that is not directly related to flying usually requires to continue on the same speciality after graduating from the university, otherwise it will most probably be useless.

[paco]

Other good strings to the bow include second languages - and I'm not talking Aviation Spanish or French (for example) but the proper stuff - spoken is OK, no need for writing.

As mentioned above, weird qualifications can be good - for example, I got hired in one company not because of my type ratings, but because I could write ops manuals.

With reference to degrees, a thought comes to mind that is not often mentioned - I have never needed mine for flying as such, or even to get a job (heck, Alton Towers never even looked at my licences and log books), but they have been useful when handling passengers (typically surveyors) who won't listen unless you have one (we're talking bush flying here - airlines are not the only game in town). In fact, they wash their hands after speaking to you!

A discreet mention of a Ph D on the business card tends to trump them all :)

Given the vast shortage of truck drivers at the moment, I would suggest an HGV would be a good investment as a back up.

[Romasik]

button-push-ignored:

Some very good points. Especially "Live like no one else, so later you can live like no one else".
I have another good example of that - an FAA/Canadian Medical Examiner in Toronto who is Air Canada captain at the same time. It took him 13 years break in flying to get fully qualified as a medical examiner, but now he is, I think, one of a kind.

[Romasik]

Paco:

Well, PhD in the business card looks intimidating:)

Language point is definitely valid.

[Romasik]

Still, gentlemen, the mere fact that so many young people go for a time and money consuming seemingly useless Embry Riddle and similar aviation colleges aeronautical science degree, tells something about it's CV value. Isn't it? So much money for what? Or is it only for those who don't pay by themself but rather their parents, who probably mistakenly think this is the best option for their kids to become professional pilots?

[paco]

I think you will fiind a parental influence.

[Romasik]

Sure parential influence. An 18 years old doesn't normally have clear picture of what is after secondary school. But what is the parent's incentive to spend some 300.000 USD? They suppose to get this idea from somewhere. And it should be a very solid foundation for such decision. Unless they are drug lords and have no clue what's the real value of money.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I suspect that most drug lords have an excellent grasp of the value of money, amongst other things. It's part of how they got to be drug lords.

PhD in the business card intimidating? Not sure that I've ever experienced that - although I have met a lot of people with a very innacurate view of what a PhD really is and means.

[paco]

Yeah, but they don't know that :) - in the US, where the guy with the most qualifications wins the argument (plenty of expert witnesses who will say what you want for the right money) despite the fact that he is a) a complete idiot and b) wrong anyway, it works a treat, even if it is in underwater basket weaving :). Europe is different in that respect.

I think the parental influence involves a lot of compensation for not being there when they were needed as parents. Sadly, it is the modern world, as is taking the quick fix when it comes to exams rather than taking the trouble to learn, but then, human decision making capabilties (or at least the part of the brain concerning them) is not fully formed until 25. I can see why 18-year olds would fall for the glamour of the uniform :) and nip everyone's head until they got what they wanted.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I tend to think it's more than parents who entirely understandably want the best for their kids, also fairly understandably have a 30 year old mental picture of how the world works - because that's how it was then they were trying to first make their way in it.

[paco]

Yes, of course. I have an overly cynical view.....

[Romasik]

I suspect that most drug lords have an excellent grasp of the value of money, amongst other things. It's part of how they got to be drug lords.

They do. The scale is different. 300.000 for them could be the same as 30 for me (I find it sometimes in old jacket pocket):)

[Rottweiler22]

I went to a good British university, but I went out of pressure from my family, and a mentality of "If you're clever, you need to go to uni", which seems to inhabit the mind of most teachers and parents. It was the right thing to do at the time, but half way through, I realised I didn't want to be there, and just grinned and beared it to the end. Since leaving school at 16, I worked part-time in the motor trade whilst at college and uni, and full-time during the holidays, so when I left uni, I had five years of work experience, whereas most graduates had zilch.

I came out with a degree in two languages from a top British university, which effectively makes me formally trilingual, with knowledge of a fourth. I'm embarking on an integrated ATPL course in the next few weeks, so I suppose we'll see if it amounts to anything, but I've always been of the opinion that a degree will be something that stands-out on a CV or application form, but not specifically relate to what you're applying for. I imagine interviewers would be more interested in personal qualities than a degree, although a degree could just make you that little bit more interesting.