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Dan_Brown
14th Oct 2016, 15:42
Seems we are in deep sh*t, as the retards came to the conclusion it was suicide. He was shot in the chest 5 times. This BS could be expected in a third world banana republic.

Deepcut: Fresh inquest allowed into Pte Sean Benton's death - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37655128)

VP959
14th Oct 2016, 15:59
It's perfectly feasible to fire 5 rounds into your chest with an SA80, so until we know the full details it's hard to reach a proper conclusion.

Anyone who's used the weapon could work out that the barrel is short enough to hold the muzzle to your chest and fire it and the forward grip makes it easy to hold the weapon in this way, with the other hand operating the trigger with the thumb. On full auto it could relatively easily discharge 5 rounds until death/LOC caused him to drop the weapon, releasing pressure on the trigger.

I'm not saying this is what happened, just that it's far from being an unrealistic scenario if someone was intent on taking their own life by a gunshot to the chest, rather than the head.

KelvinD
14th Oct 2016, 16:16
Not sure about Dan's comment. Surely, the original verdict, decades ago, came to the suicide verdict. Today a judge ruled that a new inquest should be conducted as "new evidence" had come to light.

vulcanised
14th Oct 2016, 17:34
Mainly, it's just a nice little earner for m'learned friends.
.

Krystal n chips
14th Oct 2016, 18:05
" Mainly, it's just a nice little earner for m'learned friends"

Is it really ? well that is truly fascinating to learn.

Absolutely nothing then, to do with four tragic and unexplained deaths of four young people, the bullying culture of the Army, the various, from what we read, "less than forensic" investigations.....all of which can simply be dismissed as inconsequential given the content of your post.

racedo
14th Oct 2016, 18:11
Bearing in mind the time was the SA80 capable of firing 5 rounds without jamming when incident took place ?

Something has stunk about Deepcut for a long time and this isn't the only dubious incident.

VP959
14th Oct 2016, 18:24
Bearing in mind the time was the SA80 capable of firing 5 rounds without jamming when incident took place ?

Something has stunk about Deepcut for a long time and this isn't the only dubious incident.
At that time (before the crap mags were bought as spares) the jam rate was around 1 in 30 rounds, IIRC. Later, the jam rate got worse when the cheap and nasty mags added to the plethora of problems that the L85A1 already had. There were around 5 main causes for jams, from stiffness caused by incorrect cleaning through to a poor design of bolt to the need for the buffer to be kept in good condition. There was also a trigger mech design flaw. All told it was a pile of crap.

As someone who endured 30,000 rounds being fired through L85A2's during reliability testing, post-modification, with not a single weapon-induced jam, I can say that the L85A2 is reliable as long as it's properly cleaned (i.e don't use a bloody Scotchbrite pad on any moving parts!). It's still a poor weapon, IMHO, as despite it's high accuracy, short overall length and light weight, it just isn't robust enough to cope with normal service use.

chevvron
14th Oct 2016, 19:59
For accuracy, the Lee Enfield .303 was best but you had to work the bolt for every shot and the emphasis nowadays seems to be to get off as many rounds as possible as fast as possible.
Mind you it was an Enfield bolt and far better than the Mauser bolt used by Lee Harvey Oswald.

KelvinD
14th Oct 2016, 20:09
A stupid idea based on a stupid premise. I think it may have been Gen Horrocks who wrote a piece about it not being necessary to kill an enemy, it was far better to wound him as this takes up to 3 or 4 others to take care of him. Splendid logic. Or not, if you consider that our most likely enemies at the time of his thinking were the likes of Russia & China. Neither nation is noted for compassion and first rate medical care on the battlefield. In the case of USSR in WW2, the wounded soldier was treated as a handy source of a weapon for one of those behind him who hadn't yet got one!
I may be an old codger but I think it was a mistake to get rid of the SLR. Never mind "wounded". If shot with an SLR, one tended to stay shot. I have witnessed shootings where a single round has entered the enemy, leaving a ridiculously small entry wound and exited with a lot of flesh, organs etc on the other side. No Lazarus jobs available there.
The weight of each weapon is similar to the other so no benefit to the soldier there.
As for jams, in Aden at least we avoided them by stuffing 15 rounds in a magazine, rather than the usual 20. That seemed to fix potential stoppages caused by heat and sand. I must admit, at the time we used to envy the enemy with their AK47. The bloody things would never jam!
As for automatic fire, it wasn't needed with the SLR.

BigEndBob
14th Oct 2016, 20:14
Good documentary on youtube some where, type deepcut.
Might be a Panorama prog.

VP959
14th Oct 2016, 21:56
For accuracy, the Lee Enfield .303 was best but you had to work the bolt for every shot and the emphasis nowadays seems to be to get off as many rounds as possible as fast as possible.
Mind you it was an Enfield bolt and far better than the Mauser bolt used by Lee Harvey Oswald.
There were two big problems with long barrel, larger calibre, individual weapons. The primary driver for getting the SA80 into service was because the SLR was so big that guys in NI had to get out of patrol vehicles unarmed, then reach back to get their weapon. This made them sniper bait. The SA80 was designed to overcome this problem, by being able to be slung across your chest in a vehicle, so you could get out and bring the weapon to a firing position quickly (except there was another design flaw originally, which meant the mag release would have been operated while you were seated, so you got out and the mag fell to the ground................).

The other problem was logistics. Having a light weapon with a small calibre and a relatively high muzzle velocity meant that a soldier could carry a great deal more ammunition and other kit, when compared to something like the 7.62mm of the AK47 or the SLR.

The AK47 is a very good close quarters weapon; reliable, easy to maintain and repair, cheap, etc, etc. It is still a pile of crap though. They actually rattle when carried, the tolerances are that loose. They are hopelessly inaccurate, so really only effective at relatively close quarters. The big advantage they have is that there are so many of them around, and so many other weapons that use 7.62 x 39 ammo, that in the sort of conflicts we've found ourselves in recently the AK47 users have been able to use ammo picked up all over the place. There are some very good British made/restored AK47's in use. They retain the advantages and reliability of the original weapon, but have the added advantage of being accurate. A certain Regiment uses them on occasion, I've been told.

Stanwell
14th Oct 2016, 23:34
Good post, VP959.
It is, though, a question of 'horses for courses', eh?
A good SMLE will take someone's hat off at a thousand yards.
Full autos are more useful for people who can't shoot and just need to be able to frighten the enemy.

onetrack
15th Oct 2016, 01:01
Stanwell, don't make your last sentence a statement to the Americans. I read once where 40,000 rounds were expended by the U.S. for every enemy kill in SVN. Oh - and 20% of the kills, were that cutely-named, "friendly fire". :(

Metro man
15th Oct 2016, 04:39
The AK47 has killed more people than any other weapon.

AK-47 Kalashnikov: The firearm which has killed more people than any other - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11714558/AK-47-Kalashnikov-The-firearm-which-has-killed-more-people-than-any-other.html)

A very simple and rugged weapon meant it was favoured by third world combatants who would soon have a modern western weapon rendered useless through poor maintenance or neglect. At least it would still fire in the hands of an illiterate 13 year old Liberian boy soldier.

Better quality troops could handle more complicated weapons.

Krystal n chips
15th Oct 2016, 06:39
Well, that didn't take long did it...as per usual on JB, lets just diversify away from the extremely unpleasant events the OP raised concerns about, and.....get straight on to weapons.

Stanwell
15th Oct 2016, 07:17
Oh dear.
And there was you, breathlessly waiting and hoping for details on how he supposedly achieved it, hmm?
If you can't read the book, you'll have to wait for the movie, I'm afraid.

Krystal n chips
15th Oct 2016, 07:45
" Oh dear.
And there was you, breathlessly waiting and hoping for details on how he supposedly achieved it, hmm?
If you can't read the book, you'll have to wait for the movie, I'm afraid. "

I know...it's terribly remiss of me to hope for the involvement of a whole range of salient and deeply disturbing aspects which resulted in the tragic deaths of four young people when it's far simpler to resort to various weapons and their attributes.....this saves any complications known as intelligent discussion, a concept which is possibly alien to you.

Thus the term "duty of care " may also prove problematic...

Stanwell
15th Oct 2016, 08:19
Well,
For those who seem to spend a deal of their lives 'deeply disturbed', I can only recommend the writings of Enid Blyton.
Noddy's more traumatic experiences are often ameliorated by the wise counsel of his best friend, Big Ears.
That may help.

VP959
15th Oct 2016, 08:46
Well, that didn't take long did it...as per usual on JB, lets just diversify away from the extremely unpleasant events the OP raised concerns about, and.....get straight on to weapons.
Read the first post.

OK, understood the underlying premise?

In case you didn't, the assumption was that 5 rounds fired into the deceased soldiers chest didn't seem a likely way to commit suicide. The SA80 discussion was started by the debunking of that assumption, in that is it relatively easy for someone intent on suicide to fire 5 rounds into their own chest.

As it happens I'm intimately familiar with the SA80 and all 99 of its components, so it seemed only reasonable to point out the above fact about being able to commit suicide in this way with it to the OP.

The question as to the culture at Deepcut, and the behaviour of training staff towards recruits, is something that certainly needs to be thoroughly investigated, but I suspect that any new enquiry now would only reach the same conclusions as before, which was that 20 years ago there was a culture of bullying there.

UniFoxOs
15th Oct 2016, 09:30
about being able to commit suicide in this way

But unlikely, surely, as it must be far easier to hold it pointing up under the chin?

419
15th Oct 2016, 09:51
But unlikely, surely, as it must be far easier to hold it pointing up under the chin?
I suppose it's a possibility that a person may shoot themselves in the chest rather than the head if they are rational enough to consider the feelings of their family who may wish to view the body.

AtomKraft
15th Oct 2016, 09:53
I looked for that documentary on YT, but only found a 13 min segment.

Anyone got a link to the whole programme?

Krystal n chips
15th Oct 2016, 10:02
" Read the first post.

OK, understood the underlying premise?

In case you didn't, the assumption was that 5 rounds fired into the deceased soldiers chest didn't seem a likely way to commit suicide. The SA80 discussion was started by the debunking of that assumption, in that is it relatively easy for someone intent on suicide to fire 5 rounds into their own chest.

As it happens I'm intimately familiar with the SA80 and all 99 of its components, so it seemed only reasonable to point out the above fact about being able to commit suicide in this way with it to the OP.

Actually, I have read all the posts, and generally do when they refer to a topic of interest. This may come as a surprise to you given your inclination to offer us your own perspectives without recourse to the views of others....always an inconvenience I know.

However, I remain unable to correlate the subsequent posts about 7,62mm / AK 47's and Lee Enfields, not forgetting the inevitable digression towards weapons and their capabilities with regard to Deepcut. per se


" The question as to the culture at Deepcut, and the behaviour of training staff towards recruits, is something that certainly needs to be thoroughly investigated, but I suspect that any new enquiry now would only reach the same conclusions as before, which was that 20 years ago there was a culture of bullying there" .

This is your saving grace so to speak because, you will be saddened to learn, we agree with each other.

That said, it's no real surprise that. despite the best efforts of many to establish the true depth of the causal factors that led to these deaths, the state are remarkably adept at being reticent to become open about such events, relying on that tried and trusted asset, the passage of time to dull memories and implicate those involved who may be culpable and thus potentially guilty of criminal offences.....Hillsborough, Orgreave, and as many miscarriages of justice as you care to search for.

VP959
15th Oct 2016, 10:35
But unlikely, surely, as it must be far easier to hold it pointing up under the chin?
I agree. I think that if I was in the frame of mind where I wanted to commit suicide I'd choose a head shot.

Perhaps this young man thought a chest shot, or multiple chest shots, would be "better"?

We'll probably never really know, unless some new evidence comes to light, but that seems to be unlikely after more than 20 years.




" The question as to the culture at Deepcut, and the behaviour of training staff towards recruits, is something that certainly needs to be thoroughly investigated, but I suspect that any new enquiry now would only reach the same conclusions as before, which was that 20 years ago there was a culture of bullying there" .

This is your saving grace so to speak because, you will be saddened to learn, we agree with each other.

That said, it's no real surprise that. despite the best efforts of many to establish the true depth of the causal factors that led to these deaths, the state are remarkably adept at being reticent to become open about such events, relying on that tried and trusted asset, the passage of time to dull memories and implicate those involved who may be culpable and thus potentially guilty of criminal offences.....Hillsborough, Orgreave, and as many miscarriages of justice as you care to search for.

I'm not at all saddened to discover we agree about this. It's hard to see how anyone could ignore the findings of the inquiry, as they were pretty clear.

Having worked inside the state machine for most of my working life, I do know that it is generally far from adept at anything. The majority of the time things postulated as a state conspiracy are, in fact, just incompetence and cock up, perhaps combined with poor judgement by a small minority of individuals.

I can say that, at a reasonably high level in government, there seems to be a genuine desire to be as open as possible and not give any ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. My boss at one time was Richard Mottram, who you may recall was reputed to have said "We're all f*cked. I'm f*cked. You're f*cked. The whole department's fu*ked. It's been the biggest cock-up ever and we're all completely f*cked." when a middle-ranking idiot in Stephen Byers department issued an email advising their PR people that "It's now a very good day to get out anything we want to bury. Councillors' expenses?" immediately after hearing the first news of the 9/11 tragedy. Having dealt with the man, I genuinely believe that he made those comments, out of a sense of exasperation over the insensitivity and incompetence of an individual in a department that he oversaw.

I've seen countless examples of idiocy and incompetence in government, but have never once heard of a genuine conspiracy. Government generally just isn't sufficiently joined-up to make conspiracies easy, with each and every department virtually at war with it's fellows.

Tankertrashnav
15th Oct 2016, 12:19
For once I am with K&C on this one. Yes the rate of fire of the SA80 is relevant, but I dont know what the heck the accuracy of the SMLE, etc, has to do with this.

Having a son who served in the ranks from 1990 to 2012 I am absolutely certain that the a climate of bullying existed at Deepcut, as it did elsewhere. At 6' 3" and built like a brick outhouse my son tended not to be on the receiving end of much bullying, but he certainly witnessed it. My gut feeling is that these unfortunate individuals probably did kill themselves, but the question is who drove them to it? My own feeling is that the blame very much lies with mid ranking officers who must have been aware of bullying NCOs but chose to turn a blind eye to them.

VP959
15th Oct 2016, 13:41
For once I am with K&C on this one. Yes the rate of fire of the SA80 is relevant, but I dont know what the heck the accuracy of the SMLE, etc, has to do with this.

Having a son who served in the ranks from 1990 to 2012 I am absolutely certain that the a climate of bullying existed at Deepcut, as it did elsewhere. At 6' 3" and built like a brick outhouse my son tended not to be on the receiving end of much bullying, but he certainly witnessed it. My gut feeling is that these unfortunate individuals probably did kill themselves, but the question is who drove them to it? My own feeling is that the blame very much lies with mid ranking officers who must have been aware of bullying NCOs but chose to turn a blind eye to them.
What we'd now call bullying was pretty much normal behaviour for many training NCOs for decades. It may well have changed now, but there was, without a shadow of doubt, a policy of "break to make" for many years in terms of bullying behaviour that was intended to break a recruit's "spirit" (can't think of a better term) and then remake their characters into people with a high degree of discipline who would instinctively follow orders, without question.

Hopefully things have changed, but, to be blunt, I think basic training always needs to be pretty tough, and there will always be some who just can't cut it. It's a fine line between the need to enforce needed discipline and what many would call bullying behaviour. I'm not sure we should try to compare military training policies against the standards of behaviour that we'd agree were acceptable in, say, a civvy job training environment.

chevvron
15th Oct 2016, 14:01
But unlikely, surely, as it must be far easier to hold it pointing up under the chin?
I thought that with another 'suicide' case.
President Giutelio Vargas of Brazil supposedly commited suicide with a pistol in 1959 in the then Presidential Palace which is now a museum.
When we visited Rio back in 2002, we took a look at this museum which is situated in an area where whilst it is OK during daylight, I wouldn't recommend going at night.
Vargas' bedroom is exhibited together with the pistol, the bullet and his pyjamas. The pyjamas have a bullet hole right in the middle of the pocket.
Now think about it. The easiest way to shoot yourself with a pistol is surely under the chin or through the mouth or some other 'head' shot; you wouldn't contort your wrist so as to be able to shoot yourself in the left side of your chest.

charliegolf
15th Oct 2016, 15:01
I suppose it's a possibility that a person may shoot themselves in the chest rather than the head if they are rational enough to consider the feelings of their family who may wish to view the body.

That rational a person knows that they can free themselves of the alleged bullying simply by saying, "I'm leaving, sue me!". I am coward enough to shoot one of the bullies rather than myself. Have a look at the sh1t under THAT spotlight! Unlike the Bloody Sunday debacle, I'd be happy to see any guilty so and sos lose their pensions 20 years on.

CG

419
15th Oct 2016, 15:33
That rational a person knows that they can free themselves of the alleged bullying simply by saying, "I'm leaving, sue me!".

Life unfortunately isn't as black & white as that.
The reason I worded my post as I did was due to a friend of mine committing suicide.
He was in a well paid job in the family business and to be blunt, he was in a position that he wasn't cut out for and it was obvious to everyone around him that he was very unhappy.
He could simply have left the job but kept saying that to do this would let his family down so he took his own life instead.

What may be logical and rational to me any you may not be the same to someone who is severely stressed or depressed and under pressure from others.

VP959
15th Oct 2016, 15:55
Life unfortunately isn't as black & white as that.
The reason I worded my post as I did was due to a friend of mine committing suicide.
He was in a well paid job in the family business and to be blunt, he was in a position that he wasn't cut out for and it was obvious to everyone around him that he was very unhappy.
He could simply have left the job but kept saying that to do this would let his family down so he took his own life instead.

What may be logical and rational to me any you may not be the same to someone who is severely stressed or depressed and under pressure from others.
Very true.

Years ago a former colleague, who'd married a much younger woman, was constantly afraid that she'd run off with someone else. It was completely irrational, as she was clearly devoted to him.

One day he drove over to where I worked, quite unexpectedly, and just chatted for a minute or two before saying goodbye. After the event we discovered he'd spent the whole day doing this, with everyone he knew.

That evening he had his supper, told his wife he was going out to do some work in his workshop, and hanged himself.

Many, many, times I, and others, have wondered if we could have spotted something that day and stopped him killing himself, but even now, nearly 20 years later, I can't think of any clue from his behaviour that he was going to commit suicide.

People who are so distressed as to feel that taking their own life is the only way of escape aren't at all logical or rational in their behaviour, I'm sure.

KelvinD
15th Oct 2016, 15:57
First; I am the guilty party for going off on a tangent with the weapons thread. I apologise for that.
Next; the constant refrain of a "bullying culture" baffles me. I joined the Army in the 1960s when it was allegedly a brutal organisation. Yet I never saw anything I would have construed as bullying. Certainly, things could be made hard for you at times. More than once I had to run around the square or do a number of press-ups on the spot. I once had to stand with a small rock in my hand and with my arm outstretched, parallel to the ground. And I can assure you that hurts after only a couple of minutes! Still, I never considered any of this stuff bullying. I came across one example of an attempt at bullying. This was an older soldier than me (I was 17) who had deserted during his basic training, had been rounded up and put back through the system. He thought he was Jack the Lad. One day, while waiting in a corridor for something, he had a go at me, possibly because I was the smallest lad in the troop (I just found my old Army papers which show I weighed 129ibs when I signed up!). Anyway, when I got him in a head lock and punched him in the face, he gave up. Our Troop officer saw this from his office and called me in. I was sure I was off to the guardroom for a few days but he said "I saw that and I have to punish you. So take my sword and polish it for me". As he passed the sword to me, he whispered "well done, he asked for it". And that was that. Nobody else, either trainees or staff stepped out of line and nobody packed in training and ran off home to Mum either.
Having said that the Troop that was training in parallel with mine were having a parade one day and the Colonel asked one of the trainees how he liked it. "Very good sir and the rent is very reasonable" came the reply. "Rent?" One of their training Corporals was soon in jail; he had been conning the lads into paying rent for their barrack rooms!
But, back to bullying; I think the term has a different definition now to what it once was. It seems that shouting at people can now be considered bullying whereas in my youth, it usually had a physical aspect to it.

Stanwell
15th Oct 2016, 16:04
Yes, VP959.
A few years ago, I had a good friend from the army days come around to visit.
We shared a couple of beers and had a good mag, during which time he confided to me that he'd been having some problems with his lady-friend.
OK, hmm, I thought.
Then, after he'd taken his leave, he went home, 200 metres away, went down to the basement and shot himself.
How do you think I felt?

Well said, 419.
Sometimes we don't stop to think about things like that.
As far as I'm concerned, though, do what you will .. just don't take others with you.
.

radeng
15th Oct 2016, 16:17
Probably a na´ve question. Did they not take the rifle and lock it away so the bullet striations could be compared with the bullets removed from the body? It would appear to be basic forensics to do that.......as well as checking the rifle for the fingerprints of the victim? Presumably RMP were the first ones on the scene....

G-CPTN
15th Oct 2016, 16:23
Probably a na´ve question. Did they not take the rifle and lock it away so the bullet striations could be compared with the bullets removed from the body? It would appear to be basic forensics to do that.......as well as checking the rifle for the fingerprints of the victim? Presumably RMP were the first ones on the scene....
AFAIK, none of that was done.

radeng
15th Oct 2016, 16:25
AFAIK, none of that was done.

That suggests a remarkable degree of incompetence - or a deliberate cover up.

VP959
15th Oct 2016, 16:47
There was a massive cock up with the investigation. A former RMP friend told me years ago that they hadn't even attempted to gather basic forensic data, until the scene and articles were so disturbed as to be useless for forensic purposes.

My own view is that this wasn't a deliberate cover up, it was just incompetence. That view is supported by the evidence in the enquiry report that Deepcut was, at that time, dysfunctional, in effect. The other thing that convinced me that it was incompetence was talking to others that had been there. The overwhelming view was that there was no proper investigation into this death, or the other deaths. The view seemed to be that the odd recruit killing themselves was just part and parcel of training.

I think the incompetent way these deaths were "investigated" is one reason why the Army and MoD haven't been overly willing to release information. They are almost certainly aware of the full extent of the way the investigations were mismanaged and are reluctant to admit to it.

chevvron
19th Oct 2016, 18:48
Probably a na´ve question. Did they not take the rifle and lock it away so the bullet striations could be compared with the bullets removed from the body? It would appear to be basic forensics to do that.......as well as checking the rifle for the fingerprints of the victim? Presumably RMP were the first ones on the scene....
At that range and with an MV exceeding 3,000 ft/sec, I hardly think the bullets would remain in the body. True they should have tried to retrieve the bullets, but did they? They were probably unable to deduce what way he was facing when the bullets were fired so they could literally have gone anywhere.

ex_matelot
19th Oct 2016, 19:42
This thread on arrse is quite informative, with people who have empirical knowledge of Deepcut and the then "regime":

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/deepcut-revisited.211743/

racedo
19th Oct 2016, 22:30
This thread on arrse is quite informative, with people who have empirical knowledge of Deepcut and the then "regime":

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/th...isited.211743/ (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/deepcut-revisited.211743/)

Thanks

A thoroughly depressing thread which (IMHO) shows there was a clear lack of leadership right through the chain of command.

Clearly there has been attempt to hide this and the other bases failings and coverup for years.

In short if this is the way that the chain of command treated Volunteers who signed up for Queen and Country. Perhaps those in Chain of Command need to be publicly named and treated with the contempt that they deserve.

Senior Officers Medals, MBE's and OBE's carry a stain and a stench when they have been got by overlooking what happened on their watch.

G-CPTN
19th Oct 2016, 22:51
I have no doubt that the behaviour of the NCOs was institutionalised and 'inherited' from generations of such people.

The Air Training Corps that I joined in the late 1950s was run like that by the NCOs (though the officers were gentlemen).
It seemed to be accepted that 'discipline' was inflicted on the cadets as an essential part of the training.
If you arrived after the parade had begun you had to be prepared to catch the Lee Enfield that was thrown towards you as you entered the door of the drill hall.

Tankertrashnav
19th Oct 2016, 23:09
A thoroughly depressing thread which (IMHO) shows there was a clear lack of leadership right through the chain of command.


I have no doubt that lack of leadership is at the heart of this matter. It may well be that the actual bullying was being carried out by JNCOs, but what were their SNCOs and officers doing about it? If they didn't know they were incompetent. If they did know and chose to look the other way then that is even worse.

I am sure we are not just talking about the traditional shouting and bawling which has always been part and parcel of any training regime, but something much more physical, and in the case of female recruits, sexual.

No wonder the army has been slow in getting the facts out in the open - nobody involved is going to come out of the affair smelling of roses

Blacksheep
25th Oct 2016, 14:03
A Brunei policeman was found dead near the town reservoir in 1986. He had been stabbed six times and the coroner found it was a suicide.

Even though three of the injuries were in his back.

Either the coroner was mentally disoriented or else...

...he had been spoken to.

RAT 5
25th Oct 2016, 16:43
I have no doubt that lack of leadership is at the heart of this matter. It may well be that the actual bullying was being carried out by JNCOs, but what were their SNCOs and officers doing about it?

The old (good) managers' edict of "things always go wrong from the top not the bottom" comes to mind. I amy have missed it, but did not hear anything about, nor interview with, the CO of Deepcut.
Considering other similar scandals going on, e.g. in The Met after the refusal to release the report into the VIP pedophile investigation, we at least knew the name of the high ranking individual and his head has been asked for on a stick. Not all such police scandals have allowed such identification and we suspect there is much under the rug to be revealed. How is it that the national institutions, military & police, in which we are expected to have implicit trust, treat the general public with contempt, and sometimes are allowed to get away with it? We have often seen the ferocious tenacity of family or public expose the truth and most shameful coverups when it is the government, governing authority or legal organisations who job it was to do just that.
Could this be another example?

VP959
25th Oct 2016, 17:47
I have no doubt that lack of leadership is at the heart of this matter. It may well be that the actual bullying was being carried out by JNCOs, but what were their SNCOs and officers doing about it?

The old (good) managers' edict of "things always go wrong from the top not the bottom" comes to mind. I amy have missed it, but did not hear anything about, nor interview with, the CO of Deepcut.
Considering other similar scandals going on, e.g. in The Met after the refusal to release the report into the VIP pedophile investigation, we at least knew the name of the high ranking individual and his head has been asked for on a stick. Not all such police scandals have allowed such identification and we suspect there is much under the rug to be revealed. How is it that the national institutions, military & police, in which we are expected to have implicit trust, treat the general public with contempt, and sometimes are allowed to get away with it? We have often seen the ferocious tenacity of family or public expose the truth and most shameful coverups when it is the government, governing authority or legal organisations who job it was to do just that.
Could this be another example?
In my limited experience (as a reluctant DO for a bunch of sailors years ago) it is very easy to just rely on your most senior NCO. In my case I had a Fleet Chief with years of experience who ran things, and for the short time I was supposedly in charge of two detachments the reality is that I did very little other than paperwork, reports and the odd bit of discipline (under the wise guidance of the Fleet Chief!).

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find that there was a culture established at Deepcut amongst the NCOs, passed from one bunch to another over time, with the various officers in charge of the place over the years not really knowing, or wanting to know, what was going on "at the coal face".

It was never an illustrious posting, from what I can gather, and so would have been unlikely to attract good quality officers (or NCOs for that matter). There's a strong pecking order in the Army, and the RLC have always been close to, if not at, the bottom of it.

It's not fair, or an excuse for what went on, but is probably close to the truth. A Lt Col I shared an office with years ago reminded me, when I commented that my wife, who was admin officer for the commander of a local infantry base, and used to have to type up Courts Martial papers, was surprised at the level of stupidity shown by some young soldiers, that the Army recruits from some of the worst sink estates in the UK, and we shouldn't be at all surprised to find that they bring with them a host of issues that are a consequence of their upbringing, often very stressful early lives and generally poor level of education.

For many it seems that joining up is a way to escape from their hopeless home life, so they need care, education and confidence and character building to function well. The recruits at Deepcut started off being from a more vulnerable part of our society, and sadly the attitudes of some at that place could easily have pushed them over the edge.