Chuck Yeager dislikes the British

[the_boy_syrup]

It would appear the General has a dislike for the British.
From what I've read of him he has a decent knowledge about being arrogant himself.


British people are 'nasty' and ‘arrogant’ says WWII flying ace Chuck Yeager (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/05/british-people-are-nasty-and-arrogant-says-wwii-flying-ace-chuck/?WTmcid=tmgoff_soc_spf_fb&WT.mc_id=sf37946688)



Chuck Yeager ‏@GenChuckYeager Oct 4 (https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/status/783353816259321856)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2016/10/05/chuck1-large_trans++_Bp_cim2KqNPQvEVF_nkI7_IlNBlSCb_Oz2ImoLQwE8.PNG

[Fonsini]

Having met the man himself in Phoenix, and as an expat Brit I can give some weight to this.

Yeager was one of my aviation heroes along with a long list of people like Robin Olds, Pat Pattle, and Werner Voss. A personally signed photo of him crouching in front of a B2 sits in my study with a large framed print of Glamorous Glennis sat on the wall above it. He was due in town to open a large sporting goods store and I felt the need to meet one of my icons - what's that old saying, pray you never meet your heroes - I should have listened.

On shaking his hand, the hand that held the stick of the Bell X1 as it broke the sound barrier, I introduced myself like a giddy schoolgirl. He looked up from his seated spot at a signing table, gave me a quizzical look and asked "that accent, you British?", when I replied in the affirmative he added "boy, we hated you people more than we hated the Germans". At first I thought I misheard him, no one could be that ignorant, right ? Wrong, he was just getting started "real pretty girls though, we sure liked them" (err thanks I'll let my mother know) and then capped it off with "and she ain't too shabby neither" nodding in the general direction of my wife who he clearly took a shine to. With that my 60 seconds of insults were over and I was shuffled away from his magnificence.

Quite honestly he just isn't a very nice person and yes he has a very low opinion of the British.

[stilton]

He' s always been a prick, after 'Voyager' circled the world non stop he stated any one could have done that, just like filling your minivan up with gas..


He broke the 'sound barrier' so what ? he's an a**hole.

[TowerDog]

I read his biography and no longer admired him.
A good stick for sure, but with a personality problem. :(

[Stanwell]

We used to have a funny radio serial over here...
It was called .. "Chuck Chunder and the Space Patrol".
I'm now wondering if he could have been the inspiration for that.

[t43562]

While you are enjoying your righteous anger about Chuck Yeager, which may well be justified, I remember my mother quoting a popular saying that the Americans were "oversexed, overpaid and over here." That doesn't sound too friendly.

[R755]

At least the world now knows that George Welch beat Chucky to the sound barrier. He even dived past the mother ship as it was lugging the X1 to height....and left a nice.....BOOM!
Civilian pilot George, in the P86 was first.

[wiggy]

Yeager has a history of being spiteful - possibly driven latterly by the fact he had a massive massive chip on his shoulder because he didn't have the educational qualification to apply for the Mercury program, no doubt a reason for his pop at Neil Armstrong in his bio, and the reason why, according to some accounts, he personally tried to intervene to stop Bill Anders from joining the astronaut corps (Chaikin, "A Man on the Moon).

Despite the "Right Stuff" depiction of a daring record attempt gone wrong according to some sources he was having problems flying the standard zoom profiles for the NF-104 and some claim he "screwed the pooch" with regard to that accident, but used his contacts to shift blame.


I don't doubt he had a great pair of hands and was certainly brave but he's never come over to me as being the most pleasant of individuals ( and TBF he didn't need to be in his early days, after all he was a fighter pilot :oh: ... but later on he just became plain vindictive).

[BEagle]

Read NF104 | Birth of a Spaceplane (http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_01.html) to get an accurate view of the overconfident, arrogant and vindictive Yeager...

His incompetence and failure to follow the mission profile led to the destruction of the NF-104A. Following which, his influence with the accident investigators ensured that no verdict of 'pilot error' would be entered.

Scott Crossfield once described him as 'that well known novelist'....:hmm:

[msbbarratt]

While you are enjoying your righteous anger about Chuck Yeager, which may well be justified, I remember my mother quoting a popular saying that the Americans were "oversexed, overpaid and over here." That doesn't sound too friendly.

It was a culture shock for everyone. A young black USAF chap once told me of some of the experiences of his Grandfather in the UK in WWII. The act of Brits brawling alongside black US personnel against white US personnel who wanted black people barred from pubs had clearly made a deep, multigenerational impression.

[Dundiggin']

Neither Yeager nor Welch would have been the first through the sound barrier had the Americans not STOLEN the all moving tail idea from Miles aviation....As for fighting 'our' war - you did it for your own interests too so don't try that one you muppet.

[megan]

Neither Yeager nor Welch would have been the first through the sound barrier had the Americans not STOLEN the all moving tail idea from Miles aviationThat I'm afraid Dundiggin' is one of the greatest aviation myths of all time. See my post #72 here

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/356885-miles-m-52-x-1-again-4.html

No brief for Chuck :yuk: but would like to know why Eric Brown had his X-1/M.52 story so screwed up. Bitterness at being robbed of a claim to fame? He certainly more than hints at that mind set in his M.52 book.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

oversexed, overpaid and over here. That doesn't sound too friendly.


Banter often doesn't. And I always thought the American riposte was rather good.

[tartare]

BEagles link is very interesting reading.
Confirms many stories about Yeager... not a pleasant (or indeed competent) individual.

[Basil]

Yeager is clearly unusual since, as a child, I recollect the USN visitors to my home port were great ambassadors for their country.
When the fleet was in I also recollect a trainload of ladies arriving; or so I overheard my parents saying :O

I guess ol' Chuck is still sore about the White House. Don't know what the problem is; it scrubbed up very nicely ;)

[wiggy]

not a pleasant (or indeed competent) individual.

I think he was much more than competent intially, during WW2 and and shortly thereafter.

But from what I have read I think the feeling is that as test flying became less of a case of daring dos and going up and trying to "pull the wings off" and much more a case of flying a specific repeatable profile, accurately, often on instruments, often for the benefit of the engineers (who you then need to communicate with in technical language, and Yeager didn't have an academic engineering background) ), he perhaps found his competence in some critical areas lacking ...but he then used his high ranking military and poititical friends ( who he had cultivated in the immediate wake of his X-1 exploits ) to ensure he maintained his mythical/elevated status, sadly and most inexcusably it seems often at the expense of other people.

[Davef68]

At least the world now knows that George Welch beat Chucky to the sound barrier. He even dived past the mother ship as it was lugging the X1 to height....and left a nice.....BOOM!
Civilian pilot George, in the P86 was first.

No, he wasn't

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?139932-Chuck-Yeager-Types-Flown&p=2336053#post2336053

[dagenham]

I understand from those around the time of the last big shin dig, that the ill feeling came from history repeating itself in ww1. Turned up late again, only after some direct action ( pearl harbour and in ww1 shipping losses) and now that they are here everything is won and ignores the price paid by the allies so far and painting everyone in an incompetent light.

Given that background I think some of the animosity is Understandable

[TelsBoy]

Famous people are often put on pedestals by everyone else (and sometimes even by themselves), but what everyone seems to forget is that these people are in fact regardless of their exploits in life ordinary Humans, with very Human flaws.

Some rocket ace who busted Mach 1 70 years ago thinks we Limeys are nasty and arrogant. Can't really see what the big deal is. The man's got an opinion like everyone else does and I can't say I am offended. In fact he's not far wrong in some cases, we Brits can be arrogant in some ways.

That said, a man's real personality can be seen by the fruit of his actions, and if he wants to make himself known by rants then sadly that is how he will be known and remembered...

[onetrack]

Silly old bugger must be suffering from a bit of age-related dementia. At 93 his brain function and frontal lobe damage from being banged around so much during his life, must be starting to affect his social and communicative skills. But then again, it appears he always was an abrasive personality.

[Krystal n chips]

Should make for an interesting eulogy.... and obituary's ..when the time cometh.

[maliyahsdad2]

Just reading through his twitter feed - wow - surely someone else has hacked it because I cannot believe anyone (even an American :) ) would come out with so much cr@p on purpose.

[Evalu8ter]

I think Wiggy has hit the nail on the head. Yeager's best years where at a time when his natural talents (hunting, shooting, mechanics, eye/hand co-ordination) gave him several advantages in his early career but, increasingly, his "Good 'ol boy" nature couldn't cut it as technology and test methods increased in complexity. He was not alone in sneering at the Mercury programme (several TPs feared their military careers would be compromised), but the day of the engineering Test Pilot had arrived and his lack of education (a fault of his time not of his innate intelligence) held him back - hence he went back to the "real" USAF to get his star. It's said he cared little for the space programme until the Shuttle, which he grudgingly accepted was a "real aircraft" and supposedly met his good friend Joe Engle at Edwards after STS-2 (where Engle flew the only fully manual re-entry of the entire Shuttle project) and gave him a thorough "well done". In hindsight, I'm surprised he didn't pull strings to get a ride in the Shuttle (like Glenn) - but he'd probably have insisted on flying it......He's entitled to his opinion on us Brits; but we did make a better impression on Robin Olds and I know who I'd rather have at a "dream dinner party".....

[Good Vibs]

I know who I'd rather have at a "dream dinner party".....
Definately not Chucky.:=
I would invite Amelia Earhart and ask her where she has hidden herself all these years!
Same with Charles Nungesser.
The list would be long....:ok:.

[Planemike]

Obviously NOT out of the same mould as our own Eric (Winkle) Brown, a real gentleman by all accounts............!!!!

[Hempy]

His twitter page is a train wreck. I wouldn't have thought it was possible, but it's even more juvenile than Donald Trumps.

[DirtyProp]

It would appear the General has a dislike for the British.

Who doesn't?
:E

Anyway, in his book he said it openly that the locals were not that nice to them during his WWII tour. Guess he still got a bit of a chip about it.
As a pilot I have the utmost respect for him, although if I remember correctly Bob "The Magician" Hoover was the first choice for flying the orange beast.

[NutLoose]

Brits come in many shapes and form, I blame the Scots, Irish and Welsh for giving us such a poor rep.:E

[tucumseh]

Nutloose, everyone knows a certain local spat started one Friday night in the 12th century when some yobs from Carlisle went north to rape and pillage, followed by some Scottish gentlemen going South the following night to make love and borrow things.

[PDR1]

While you are enjoying your righteous anger about Chuck Yeager, which may well be justified, I remember my mother quoting a popular saying that the Americans were "oversexed, overpaid and over here." That doesn't sound too friendly.

It was music-hall banter which was almost invariably parried immediately with the risposte "while you are underpaid, undersexed and under Eisenhower".

Yeager was a farm-boy from Smalltown, Nowheresville whith the limited education that went with that background in the 1930s, so it's not really that surprising that wartime UK was a bit of a culture shock to him. His inferiority complex in regard to the more educated and intellectual pilots of later generations is a matter of record. I guess it has continued to rankle and eat away at him like a cancer. I've often felt he may be one of those people whose professional capabilities one can admire while almost despising them as a person - like John Wayne and Michael Schumacher. The exact opposite of (for example) Tony Benn, whose political stance I disposed on almost every topic but when I met him I found to be a charming and engaging man who I would have valued as a friend.

PDR

[Expatrick]

Brits come in many shapes and form, I blame the Scots, Irish and Welsh for giving us such a poor rep.:E

& the English for making it worse!

[Hempy]

As an Aussie, I have to say the stereotypes are as follows;

Irish: Mad, heavy drinkers, would back you up in a fight.

Scots: Mad, heavy drinkers, tight-arsed, would back you up in a fight unless you owed them 5p.

Welsh: Slightly mad, would probably stop a fight in its tracks by simply yelling out 'Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch' .

English: A bit slow, pasty, couldn't drink a nun under the table, would run from a fight even if it was their best friend.

Just a stereotype, but half of that word can be read as 'typical'

[VX275]

Obviously NOT out of the same mould as our own Eric (Winkle) Brown, a real gentleman by all accounts............!!!!


Not according to an old work colleague who had been an Observer on the FAA Sqn he commanded.

[Flap62]

He is entitled to his opinion and, frankly, I couldn't care less about it but respect him as a pilot? Not a chance. Arrogance and a complete disregard for people who knew better would perhaps have stopped him jumping out of the 104. He was an idiot then and he's still one now.

[Tankertrashnav]

We Brits also have a couple of examples of aviation heroes who had a reputation for being a***holes of the first water. Naming no names, but at least one bomber pilot and one fighter pilot from WW2 spring to mind - PPRuNe members will have their own ideas who I am referring to.

Delighted to see the reference to Winkle Brown who could no doubt have outflown any of them and was a true gentleman to boot.

[ShotOne]

IT's not necessarily a Brit thing with Yeager. After his sneering dismissal of the outstanding round the world flight of the Rutan Voyager it's clear he had enough in his arrogance bucket for everyone.

[Basil]

PPRuNe members will have their own ideas who I am referring to.
Too easy, but they were brave and effective gentlemen who not only did the deed but were useful on the home PR front.

Don't forget the gallant RN officer who comes in for some castigation in these pages (largely of his own making).

As is said: 'Don't meet your heroes'
Met a rock legend once - she was a whacko.

[Airbubba]

Read NF104 | Birth of a Spaceplane (http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_01.html) to get an accurate view of the overconfident, arrogant and vindictive Yeager...

His incompetence and failure to follow the mission profile led to the destruction of the NF-104A. Following which, his influence with the accident investigators ensured that no verdict of 'pilot error' would be entered.

The portrayal of Yeager is indeed less than flattering in this online version of events.

Here's an account of Yeager's NF-104A crash and ejection in these chapters from Bob Smith, the lead Air Force test pilot for Aero Space Trainer program:

NF104 | Unwanted Record for Chuck Yeager (http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_11.html)

NF104 | Spin, Crash & Rescue (http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_12.html)

NF104 | Accident Board (Strike Three for Me!) (http://www.kalimera.org/nf104/stories/stories_13.html)

Bob Smith's assessment of the cause of the NF-104A crash:

The facts are clear. Chuck Yeager proved incapable of doing the job. He was totally outside his element. He was a natural pilot who had learned by experience and feel, but never really understood stability, just ‘sensed’ how airplanes would act, but aerodynamics and space dynamics are night and day. If he was to fail, I expected it to be outside the aerodynamics region.

But not even that can excuse his accident, which was his fault, alone and was an error of bad pilot technique during normal, aerodynamic flight. His shortcoming was inability to gain and maintain the 70 degree climb angle. That required strict and delicate airplane control. No more and no less.

His failure to do that made the space flight moot. He made the mistake, not once but on each of his four zooms, exaggerated on each until his accident was inevitable long before he departed his familiar flying region His failing started at the moment he began a 3½ g pull up to the required 70 degree climb. He never once made his immediate angle close to 70 degrees thus losing so much energy that he could not fly high enough to stay out of trouble. Worse yet, he repeatedly started climb at a lower angle, then pulled the nose up later losing energy even faster and making the situation far more critical. He needed time outside the atmosphere to use the reaction controls to nose over and he denied himself that time with poor piloting in his element of expertise, aerial flight.

In effect, what he did was climb far too shallow and then pulled up very steep in aerodynamic flight to a hammerhead stall, which in any F-104 meant an irrecoverable pitch-up and likely spin.

[wiggy]

Thanks for posting those Airbubba, I was aware of Bob Smiths blog a while back but was darned if I could find the links ( bit of a rush this AM ) and they were the basis for some of my previous comment,

I have always beeen struck by Smith's comment that :

"but it became clear that events and Col.... involvement in them, took full toll on my career."

It's clear (IMHO with a lot of justification) that he felt that he and a few others carried the can for the accident for a long time, whilst others got away with it.

Of course "The Right Stuff" version of the accident doesn't hint at any of the above, and just embellishes Yeagers image further but seeing as Yeager himself was one of the cast (minor role) perhaps no surprise.....

[NutLoose]

Nutloose, everyone knows a certain local spat started one Friday night in the 12th century when some yobs from Carlisle went north to rape and pillage, followed by some Scottish gentlemen going South the following night to make love and borrow things. Well if I have said it once, I have said it a million times, it needed our family, ( amongst all the other Border Reiver families ) to go North and attempt to f*ck some sense into them.. :p

[Brian 48nav]

My No1 son, a British test pilot, was in the departure lounge at Blagnac, some 3 years ago, waiting for a flight and spotted Yeager who is one of his heroes. He went over and exchanged pleasantries which culminated in them posing together for a photo. I don't think there was any evidence of anti -Britishness by Yeager on that occasion.

As for heroes who were despised by their colleagues, Max Hastings in his book 'Warriors' has a bit to say about it - one of the subjects is the WW2 bomber hero, not Cheshire of course.

What a lot of 'The Cousins' either forget or did not know in the first place, is that Hitler declared war on the USA after Pearl Harbor (I Grudgingly use the American spelling as it is a proper noun! ) and not the other way around.

[GlobalNav]

I respect Gen Yeager's accomplishments, and his military service. But as a retired USAF officer I do NOT share his opinion of the British. I am grateful that my country has such a friend in this troubled world.

We truly are "divided" by somewhat different cultures and a common language. The way one handles such differences demonstrates his world view, whether provincial or sophisticated. But I have had no trouble making friends and enjoying the company of British citizens.

[charliegolf]

I've often felt he may be one of those people whose professional capabilities one can admire while almost despising them as a person - like John Wayne and Michael Schumacher.

Douglas Bader wasn't the nicest chap a person could meet. Allegedly!

[PDR1]

I could believe it. OTOH I met Jeremy Clarkson and found him to be an intelligent, erudite and well-read chap who made the 4-hour delay in the upper class lounge at LAX just fly by. Not at all like his on-screen persona.

I've also met Gyles Brandreth and (again) I do not agree with any of his political views, but would very much enjoy his company at a dinner party.

PDR

[Fonsini]

After my initial post going "below the line" about my personal interaction with Yeager I'm going back above the line because the "dinner party" with aviators comment struck a chord.

I would go with:

Hanna Reich (yes, even with her post-war comments about Naziism)
Werner Voss
Bill Beaumont (so we could argue about the Lightning)
Bill Gunston (so he could argue with everyone, about everything)
Robin Olds (what a life that guy had)
Barnes Wallis (because every pilot needs to be reminded that they don't actually make the planes, they just fly them)

Each to his own.

[Danny42C]

Chuck Yeager dislikes the British

I dislike Chuck Yeager.

(reminds me of:

"God is dead - Nietzsche"
"Nietzsche is dead (d.1900) - God"

(supposedly graffiti on London Underground)

In the course of my long and undistinguished "career", I have met many American Gentlemen (and I use the word advisedly). I am for ever grateful to General "Hap" Arnold for givimg me my flying training in the USAAC, and have grateful memories of the hospitality lavished on us by the American people when we were there.

I am sorry for the wartime sneer "Overfed...etc". Was it their fault that our Government would not pay its troops properly ? (note that the RCAF paid just as well as the US - but the slur was not applied to them).

Was it their fault that our Government would not kit ours out with smart uniforms ? And why should they not be well fed, coming as they did from a land of plenty (we have plenty of food now - and just look at us !)

It was pure "sour grapes" of course. They got the girls because they had the money (and the Marlboros, the Hershey bars and the nylons helped), they were smart, they could jitterbug - and they were simply [I]different.

We were in a life-or-death struggle together in those years (and may yet again be so); we were basically the same people; it cannot be wished away now.

Danny.

[MPN11]

I spent many of my 'Cold War' years working with/controlling Americans, and have subsequently a lot of time on 'vacation' in the USA where I have acquired several ex-US Mil buddies. They seem[/ed] like fairly normal people to me, and we tease each other appropriately all the time about our various differences. Of course, these are 'normal' people, not high-flying super-stars.

I found the reading about Yeager rather sad.

[Lonewolf_50]

Danny42C: nice to see a bit of wisdom dropped into a thread full of nonsense.


A few points to remember (as Chuck was of Danny's vintage):
Yeager's career began in World War II as a private in the United States Army Air Forces. After serving as an aircraft mechanic, in September 1942 he entered enlisted pilot training and upon graduation was promoted to the rank of flight officer ... He finished the war with 11.5 official victories, including one of the first air-to-air victories over a jet fighter (a German Messerschmitt Me 262).
Another point: early in his service in the war, after his first air to air victory, he was shot down, evaded, and made it back and rejoined the fight. (He had to "fight city hall" and army Brass to get back into the fight, with a war going on. Weird world, it is).


That, ladies, is enough for me to suggest that some of you need to re-cage your gyros.


The points on his not transitioning well into the jet age test pilot requirement strikes me as something wrong with the USAF at the time. Here they had a talented pilot, who was reasonably intelligent. Maybe they offered him a shot at a degree, maybe they didn't. (Maybe he wasn't interested). The quoted criticism on the NF-104 strikes me as a fair critique of not flying the test profile that was planned. That will get anyone into trouble in a flight test program. (And there were a lot of dead bodies among test pilots in the 40's and 50's ...) Maybe it was just as well that he went back to the regular Air Force.


=====


So he's now a grumpy old man. FFS, he's 93. He's earned the right. For those who argue that style counts, it does, and that goes double for colonels and generals.


Mixed bag, but some of your vitriol is misplaced.


My own experiences: I've worked with officers from many countries, and plenty of Brits. In the main, the Royal Marines and Naval officers (save for one insufferable git) have been great to work with or for. RAF mostly good experiences. The Army? Two insufferable arrogant jagovs, (one LTC and one COL) the rest great.

[Stanwell]

Yes MPN, so did I.
Seems he ended up with a bit of a chip on his shoulder.

Danny42C's reference to the "Overpaid, etc." brought to mind certain events here in Australia - most notably the "Battle of Brisbane" in November of 1942.
Wikipedia covers it fairly well under the above title.

I must say though, that during a certain unpleasantness in South East Asia around the 60s and 70s, the Yanks and us got on very well together -
both over there and here.
It was indeed our privilege to show them some hospitality when we were on our home turf.
.

[Geordie_Expat]

My first real contact with Americans was while stationed in HQAFCENT. I found them just like us with different accents and slightly better pay (the Canadians were the ones with the big loot).


I think the average American tourist gives the rest a bad name (generalisation I know but speak as you find). One of the worst I ever met was my sister-in-law and she is a Brit who has lived in the USA for years. Total PITA.

[sitigeltfel]

Douglas Bader wasn't the nicest chap a person could meet. Allegedly!

I could personally discount the "allegedly", but maybe I got him on a bad day! :hmm:

[Hangarshuffle]

CY is not the first US officer to form a "hate at first sight" opinion (if that's the right word, I'm struggling again) of the British. The USN's own Admiral King hated us after being disabused by some RN officers allegedly. We can snobbish, cold, aloof and especially in the military. Wasn't a laughing party for those Americans based here in WW2.
Doesn't really change my opinion of Yeager- a tough old SOB who fought it out against the Nazis, on our side. What do we want-snow white? Let him be.

[flash8]

Don't forget the gallant RN officer who comes in for some castigation in these pages (largely of his own making).

He was gallant? Big on ego sure...

[dragartist]

I remember Eric Brown telling me he did not like Chuck much. not sure if this stems from the M52 experience. There may have been a bit of history between them.

[NutLoose]

I could personally discount the "allegedly", but maybe I got him on a bad day!

He used to have about 365 of them a year. It has been covered before in depth, but just read up on how he treated his batman in Colditz. It just about sums the man up.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Welsh: Slightly mad, would probably stop a fight in its tracks by simply yelling out 'Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch' .Living Welsh is the best revenge.

[India Four Two]

I am sorry for the wartime sneer "Overfed...etc". Was it their fault that our Government would not pay its troops properly ? (note that [I believe] the RCAF paid just as well as the US - but the slur was not applied to them).

A very good friend of mine was an RCAF radar mechanic during WWII. He was with a Beaufort squadron at Leuchars, before going to India.

He told me that the Canadian government decided that it would pay its troops in the U.K. the same as British troops and the balance of their pay went into a bank account in Canada.

[reynoldsno1]

A young black USAF chap once told me of some of the experiences of his Grandfather in the UK in WWII. The act of Brits brawling alongside black US personnel against white US personnel who wanted black people barred from pubs had clearly made a deep, multigenerational impression.
"The Chequer Board" by Nevil Shute is a worthwhile read ...

[PDR1]

Living Welsh is the best revenge.
A few years ago we spent our summer holiday on Anglesey. We spent hours driving around trying to find this huge beach that was on all the signposts all over the island, but we never did find Traeth Beach.

We also saw the signposts for the Ysbyty hospital, and wondered if there was a corresponding Errbytys hospital, and why these STD clinics were segregated...

PDR

[West Coast]

Bob Hoover

Now there is an ambassador for US military aviation along with just being the personification of class.

A number of years ago a pilot I know had Yeager onboard heading into Sacramento. A little over the top perhaps but as part of the welcome aboard PA, reference was made to Yeager and his accomplishments. Well after the fact, the company received a warning letter from a lawyer representing Yeager instructing the company to cease using the Generals name. He was/is a regular on the airline, he gets his wish, no one acknowledges the git.

[onetrack]

Re the "overpaid" reference. I seem to recall the bitterness by the Tommies in WW1, towards the Diggers, as regards pay.
The Aussies were well-paid for the era (6 shillings a day - as compared to I think it was around a shilling, or a shilling and sixpence, for the Tommies.)

As a result, the Tommies coined the term for the Diggers - "Six-bob-a-day tourists", with the accompanying ill-feeling.
As Danny42C says, the pay grievances are more to do with a British Govt that was miserly in the extreme - and always seems to have been, as regards their servicemen.

[Basil]

a British Govt that was miserly in the extreme - and always seems to have been, as regards their servicemen.
Yup, whilst at Wyton we went over to the bar in RAF(USAF) Alconbury one evening - impressive!

[pulse1]

Probably about 40 years ago, BBC Panorama did programme about Americans based in East Anglia. They interviewed one old Codger and asked him what he thought of the Americans. For his answer he described an incident when a US airman was standing on the corner of the street eating fish and chips in the traditional way. Seeing that his private parts were exposed a local policeman accused him of being improperly dressed. The airman looked down and said "Oh. She's gone has she?".

[Geordie_Expat]

Basil


I'll second that. Many great nights at Alconbury when I was stationed at Wittering..

[Heathrow Harry]

"Quote:
Originally Posted by charliegolf http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/585349-chuck-yeager-dislikes-british-3.html#post9532302)
Douglas Bader wasn't the nicest chap a person could meet. Allegedly!

I could personally discount the "allegedly", but maybe I got him on a bad day! http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif"

Must have been the same two days I met him.... irritable didn't really cover the situation...........

[BEagle]

Westie, you're dead right about Bob Hoover! Didn't he once take on the FAA and win? I saw him display the Shrike Commander at Paris in 1969 - simply stunning!

As for Yeager, why couldn't he just have sent a little note up to the flight deck to say "That was nice of you, Captain, but actually I prefer to travel incognito".

No doubt the flight attendants made sure that he wasn't given any special treatment from then on.... At least, none about which he might have been aware :E

Chaps, generalising about WW2 experiences is hardly fair, given the large number of guests who made the hazardous journey across the pond to help kick Adolf's ar$e. In any case, when you get people in groups of 9 or more, they can be rather a pain - just look at the Reds ;) ! But comments about a certain fighter pilot and also the famous bomber pilot with the unpleasant dog are, I gather, on the money!

[treadigraph]

Westie, you're dead right about Bob Hoover! Didn't he once take on the FAA and win?


Not quite, The FAA took on Bob Hoover and lost! :ok:


Saw Yeager fly a P-51 at Oshkosh once, not sure he actually knows how to smile. His WWII squadron mate Bud Anderson flew another Mustang on his wing, that man was very clearly enjoying himself. Hoover's the same, saw him fly his Shrike at Reno, huge grin after he landed!

[sharpend]

'Fighting the war for us'? Like hell. Moreover, read up about Lease-lend. The US lent us ships & aeroplanes. Thank you. But they were only lent to us. After the war we had to give them back. Trouble is, the obsolete ancient warships had sunk and many aircraft were shot down. So we had to mortgage GB up to the hilt to pay back the USA for all what we had 'lost'. No wonder big business in the USA got very rich out of WW2 and we got very poor. They were smart and we were desperate.

[hoodie]

Further to sharpend's pertinent post, the also necessary post-war Anglo-American Loan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan) was finally repaid by the UK in 2006.

No typo.

[The Oberon]

Say what you like about Yeager, I don't know, but he is almost saintlike in the USA. In 1993 I went to see the Indy 500 and the pre-race flypast was 5 x P51s led by Yeager. To a man 470,000 Americans stood and cheered, I'd be surprised if he didn't hear it.

The same 470,000 also stood and cheered Nigel Mansell when he went from 6th to 1st with a perfectly timed run following a safety car restart, but that's another story about another awkward ace.

[Sleeve Wing]

Nigel an awkward ace, The Oberon ?
Nah, lovely chap. Down to earth “Midlander”. Totally focussed - probably like CY - and with a similar education I feel.
Nothing wrong with these blokes. Just a different attitude to their careers which they were both very fortunate to achieve…….

Once met NM in the lounge at Heathrow in the 80s. I was deadheading and he was on his way back to the IOM. He’d just been to give a presentation to Durex for some funding. Laughing his socks off, he was, that they hadn’t got it and so he wouldn’t have to have the logo on his car ! …..and so pleased to have some company during his delay.

The “allegedly” "famous fighter ace" was a different situation.
I was in his presence at RAF Gaydon years ago when I was a cadet. Having patiently waited, I wanted just to shake the hand of a bloke who had been my hero since about the age of 7. I was in uniform and politely asked if this could be so. Without a word, he looked down with a frown and turned his back !

Since then I have been fortunate enough to be introduced to a good few, renowned aviation “legends”. For example, Ray Hanna was never like that. Nor Geoffrey Quill. Nor Neville Duke. Nor our own JF. All these were confident gentlemen, comfortable in their own shoes, who were all too willing to encourage young whippersnappers like me. It doesn’t take much effort.

[teeteringhead]

All these were confident gentlemen, comfortable in their own shoes, who were all too willing to encourage young whippersnappers like me. It doesn’t take much effort. And of course the late great (in every way except height) "Winkle" Brown.

Had the privilege of sharing a glass or two of red with him a few years ago. Don't think I qualified as a "young whippersnapper" even then, although he was 30 years and about 12,000 hours my senior! Still find it amazing that I had a drink with someone who debriefed Hermann G just before he topped himself, and had his first flight courtesy of Ernst Udet........

ISTR he - Winkle - did a tour at Pax River on the 50s. Must have met Yeager - wonder what HE thought of him....

[SASless]

Yeager is well balanced...with a chip on each shoulder.

Perhaps that is part of the reason so many Brits take exception to the Man as they cannot tolerate competition.

I always heard the Brits during the War were under paid, under sexed, and under Eisenhower!

Heading to the bunker in anticipation of some "Oh Yeah's!".

[Danny42C]

sharpend (#99),

It wasn't quite as bad as that. At the end in India I had three Vultee Vengeance Mk.III (so all Lend-Lease) on inventory.

Then there were three options for our LL aircraft:

(a) Anything the US wanted (eg: Daks - refitted as DC-3s would be the mainstay of immediate post war civil aviation for years to come) had to be handed back.

(b) Anything we wanted to keep, we must pay for (at a heavily discounted price).

(c) The rest must be completely destroyed, so that no part of them (eg cockpit instruments) could come on the market to compete with US sales.

I'm fairly sure we were not charged for battle or accident "write-offs" ! - that would've been a "bit much".

Wiki says:

"....The terms of the agreement provided that the materiel was to be used until returned or destroyed. In practice very little equipment was returned...."

I would assume we bought all the RAF's postwar Daks under option (b).

Danny.

[Tinribs]

Do not be sad that this man doesn't like us
That is what the British are for
Our function is to be not liked, without us it would have to be someone else

[His dudeness]

Bob Hoover

Now there is an ambassador for US military aviation along with just being the personification of class.

+ 1

That is what the British are for
Our function is to be not liked, without us it would have to be someone else

And I thought thats our (the Germans) job ?

[zero1]

I don't think the big yank has forgiven us for all the advance aerodynamic secrets they stole from the brits before the X1 did her M1 flight. I can't blame him for that.... still it's a bad show, but what can you expect from a yank.

[Fareastdriver]

the pay grievances are more to do with a British Govt that was miserly in the extreme - and always seems to have been, as regards their servicemen.

I, with many other British servicemen of all arms, was detached to the United Nations peacekeeping force in Cyprus. Peacekeepers were entitled to UN pay when they had thirty days continuous service on the Island.

Our Lord and Master at that time was Harold Wilson and he decreed that every British serviceman had to proceed to an Sovereign Base Area, which meant that they were technically outside the Republic of Cyprus, before that thirty days, to ensure that they were not entitled to UN pay.

[Pontius Navigator]

Met Gus Walker before I knew his story.

Met Harry Bendorf as a mere major.

Both good guys.

[NutLoose]

Fighting the war for us'? Like hell. Moreover, read up about Lease-lend. The US lent us ships & aeroplanes. Thank you. But they were only lent to us. After the war we had to give them back. Trouble is, the obsolete ancient warships had sunk and many aircraft were shot down. So we had to mortgage GB up to the hilt to pay back the USA for all what we had 'lost'. No wonder big business in the USA got very rich out of WW2 and we got very poor. They were smart and we were desperate.

Didn't we also have to surrender some of our overseas territories to them as well.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/lend-lease

On September 2, 1940, as the Battle of Britain intensified, United States Secretary of State Cordell Hull signaled agreement to the transfer of the warships to the Royal Navy. In exchange, the US was granted land in various British possessions for the establishment of naval or air bases, on ninety-nine-year rent-free leases, on:

Newfoundland (today part of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador)
Eastern side of the Bahamas
Southern coast of Jamaica
Western coast of St. Lucia
West coast of Trinidad (Gulf of Paria)
Antigua
British Guiana (present day Guyana) within fifty miles of Georgetown
The agreement also granted the US air and naval base rights in:

The Great Sound and Castle Harbour, Bermuda
South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland
No destroyers were received in exchange for the bases in Bermuda and Newfoundland. Both territories were vital to trans-Atlantic shipping, aviation, and to the Battle of the Atlantic. Although enemy attack on either was unlikely, it could not be discounted, and Britain had been forced to wastefully maintain defensive forces, including the Bermuda Garrison. The deal allowed Britain to hand much of the defence of Bermuda over to the still-neutral US, freeing British forces for redeployment to more active theatres. It also enabled the development of strategic facilities at US expense which British forces would also utilise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement

[pax britanica]

A lot of Americans share Yeagers view and why not -we are a bunch of duplicitous , arrogant people who live in the past.
On the other hand many of us dislike the Americans as fat stupid boorish and ignorant .

However many Americans like us and there is much to like in many of them, Donald Trump being something of an exception though

Yeagers entitled to his opinion in the same way the 'Ryder Cup golfers brother ' is entitled to his. Its very childish to get hugely defensive when people run your country down because it is stereotyping on a huge scale and just shouldn't be taken seriously.

[mopardave]

Once met JEJ......he posed for a photo and was very civil with me but the colleague I was with had his nuts ripped off by him! He must have been having a bit of a moment but he went from hero to zero in a split second in my colleagues eyes! As for Yeager......read his autobiography and thought he was clearly talented and brave but had an inflated ego. As for fighting our war......Christ they made us pay for it......No one else did though! Having read this thread, the charity shop can have his book.....he sounds rather odious. Don't care what he did......manners cost nothing! A*sehole!

[CONSO]

In 1972-73 I was working at Rockwell on the B-1A Bomber in redondo . Final assembly was at palmdale. Thus several trips wsere made via rockwell aero commander from LAX to Palmdale plant 41. One of the ' corporate' pilots was Bob Hoover. Was interexting when he taxied to end of runway and waited for clearance from tower. As soon as he spoke- tower response with takeoff clearance was given in the normal manner followed by (paraphrased ) have a good day BOB ..

One person in my group ( Bill ) was flying back from palmdale with Bob, and as he cleared the mountain ridge prior to descent to LAX, Bill looked out and was startled to see a few trees not too far off of one wing.. seems that Bob remarked he thought he saw some aircraft wreckage in one of the canyons running southward and wanted a closer look. Shurre ...:D

In 1973- Bob was hired by Northrop to demo the Northrup F-5 ( later T-38 ) Tiger at the paris airshow. Of course Northrop filmed his demo and the Russian SST flyby. Got an inviute to see the film at Northrop- after a spectracular flight demo ( probably film somewhere ) Bob parked the plane put on his Cowboy straw hat and motored back on a mini mini scooter !

The film ended as the SST made its pass and started to climb- and the film faded out. We asked the photographer if he had censored the film to avoid showing the SST crash. He said no- what happened is that he figured a closing shot of the russian SST flyby was appropriate, so he simply faded out thecamera and stopped filming, bent down to put his camera away - and missed the resulting ' stall' and crash.

[mopardave]

Quote:
Fighting the war for us'? Like hell. Moreover, read up about Lease-lend. The US lent us ships & aeroplanes. Thank you. But they were only lent to us. After the war we had to give them back. Trouble is, the obsolete ancient warships had sunk and many aircraft were shot down. So we had to mortgage GB up to the hilt to pay back the USA for all what we had 'lost'. No wonder big business in the USA got very rich out of WW2 and we got very poor. They were smart and we were desperate. Didn't we also have to surrender some of our overseas territories to them as well.

https://history.state.gov/milestones...945/lend-lease (https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/lend-lease)

Quote:
On September 2, 1940, as the Battle of Britain intensified, United States Secretary of State Cordell Hull signaled agreement to the transfer of the warships to the Royal Navy. In exchange, the US was granted land in various British possessions for the establishment of naval or air bases, on ninety-nine-year rent-free leases, on:

Newfoundland (today part of the Canadian province of Newfoundland and Labrador)
Eastern side of the Bahamas
Southern coast of Jamaica
Western coast of St. Lucia
West coast of Trinidad (Gulf of Paria)
Antigua
British Guiana (present day Guyana) within fifty miles of Georgetown
The agreement also granted the US air and naval base rights in:

The Great Sound and Castle Harbour, Bermuda
South and eastern coasts of Newfoundland
No destroyers were received in exchange for the bases in Bermuda and Newfoundland. Both territories were vital to trans-Atlantic shipping, aviation, and to the Battle of the Atlantic. Although enemy attack on either was unlikely, it could not be discounted, and Britain had been forced to wastefully maintain defensive forces, including the Bermuda Garrison. The deal allowed Britain to hand much of the defence of Bermuda over to the still-neutral US, freeing British forces for redeployment to more active theatres. It also enabled the development of strategic facilities at US expense which British forces would also utilise.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destro...ases_Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyers_for_Bases_Agreement)


and didn't Churchill have to send the then Chancellor of the Exchequer to Washington to beg for aid in 1945? "Special relationship"......give me strength!!

[NutLoose]

Wasn't it a bunt, caused they think by it trying to avoid a French Mirage supposedly getting a closer look.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/579773-bbc-tu144-konkordski-article-interest.html

[onetrack]

Nutloose, I seem to recall Britain handing over Diego Garcia was part of the 1940 warships deal?
On top of that, the warships handed over were the equivalent of 100,000 hr aircraft, nearly at the end of their life, and full of antiquated technology.
The deal was the equivalent of Honest John Used Cars exchanging a yard full of rusty clunkers, for some prime Kensington real estate.

[megan]

I don't think the big yank has forgiven us for all the advance aerodynamic secrets they stole from the brits before the X1 did her M1 flight. I can't blame him for that.... still it's a bad show, but what can you expect from a yank. To repeat myself, that is a story that has gained currency and has been accepted as the "truth" because it's a tale promoted by Eric Brown. One thing wrong though, it's all bollocks, never happened.

[West Coast]

Like liberals over here, expecting stuff for free.

[SASless]

Perhaps we should bring all of our Military home and leave you be.

[t43562]

It's interesting how all this crap snowballs. Face it, Both the British and the Americans are arrogant arsholes no wonder they sometimes tick each other off. Us other colonials know. ;-) (lets see if we can start up a multi-way fight).

[57mm]

And we haven't even started on the French yet.......

[goudie]

.......or the Germans, they bombed our chippy!

[Pault]

Roland Beamont describes in his book ‘Testing Years’ how Yeager refused to shake his hand. It was 1948 at Muroc Lake and Beamont had just ‘guest flown’ the North American XP86 (later to become the Sabre). Yeagers beef was that a ‘Limey’ had been allowed to fly it when he had not.

That said Beamont didn’t do any favours for the possibility any other ‘guest’ pilots when he decided to explore two corner points on his first and only flight. He said afterwards that it had not been specifically briefed that he should not do so although he did add that that it had also not been specifically briefed that he could.

[ShyTorque]

This topic is about grumpy old men (one in particular). It has brought out grumpy old men on both sides of the discussion, many with an axe to grind. I thought we were meant to be Allies, gentlemen.

[PDR1]

This topic is about grumpy old men (one in particular). It has brought out grumpy old men on both sides of the discussion, many with an axe to grind. I thought we were meant to be Allies, gentlemen.

If you'd ever seen how the sharp end of the ITAR regulations are implemented you might wonder whether that's really true.

PDR

[Union Jack]

The deal was the equivalent of Honest John Used Cars exchanging a yard full of rusty clunkers, for some prime Kensington real estate. - Onetrack

You probably would not have said that if you realised how highly the real Honest John (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/) is regarded in UK, and indeed further afield.....:=

Jack

[noflynomore]

Yeager's perception of the British as unwelcoming is of course a very personal and narrow perception as they were almost uniformly welcomed with open arms (sometimes a bit too literally) as they were clearly going to be our saviours.

His rather sour attitude, I suspect, may stem from where he was based. Leiston was then a small and somewhat remote but very rural backwater in Suffolk where most of the people would never have been to London and many possibly not even to Ipswich 15 miles away. Most of those that had travelled had probably only been to Flanders and back. It was a very conservative, traditional, quiet and settled community where everyone knew everyone else for miles around and nothing much of interest ever happened. The compulsory purchase of a vast acreage of their prime farmland for an airfield will have caused massive social uprooting and upset and the arrival of a bunch of noisy, foreign uproarious testosterone-fuelle hooligans taking over the quiet, civilised village pub and complaining about the beer would not have endeared them to the locals one little bit. The US are not well known nowadays for cultural sensitivity and back then I doubt the concept even existed.
I don't doubt for a second that the sort of boorish, noisy, testosterone fuelled alcoholic excesses visited on the surrounding villages wold have been received favourably by the quiet local populace any more than we welcome the braying hordes from the city who infest our beautiful countryside now.
E Anglia is a friendly place as long as you don't try to impose your noisy city ways on us, and if you do we're rather likely to let you know our feelings, sometimes quite subtlly.
Thus I contend it wasn't the English being unfriendly per se to the Great Ego, rather the insensitive behaviour of him and his colleagues not being well received in a place of traditional rural quiet.

[charliegolf]

I just read about Bill Anders' journey to astronauthood. He failed to get into AARPS (Yeager was the boss), but was invited to fly for NASA. He met Yeager in a corridor somewhere, who told him "You didn't get in." Anders told him he was ok with that 'cos he was leaving for NASA anyway. Yeager's reply: "I'll see about that!" His interference was for nought though.

CG

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutloose, I seem to recall Britain handing over Diego Garcia was part of the 1940 warships deal?
On top of that, the warships handed over were the equivalent of 100,000 hr aircraft, nearly at the end of their life, and full of antiquated technology.
The deal was the equivalent of Honest John Used Cars exchanging a yard full of rusty clunkers, for some prime Kensington real estate.
No, this was a different deal in part because we were withdrawing our forces east of Suez and the US wanted a politically secure base. See

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia

This was under the Wilson Labour Government.

[MSOCS]

It may be that he's very ill and not the one posting. Rumours abound that his wife (Jean?) is responding and she may now be lashing out at the vitriol in reply to the original (poor taste) Twitter post.

Either way, this thread is a waste of outrage.

I try not to bite as he's but one person with an opinion, in a world full of them.

[megan]

The US are not well known nowadays for cultural sensitivity and back then I doubt the concept even existed.That certainly applied to the US Army in Vietnam. Can't speak for the other services.

[TURIN]

As an Aussie, I have to say the stereotypes are as follows;

Irish: Mad, heavy drinkers, would back you up in a fight.

Scots: Mad, heavy drinkers, tight-arsed, would back you up in a fight unless you owed them 5p.

Welsh: Slightly mad, would probably stop a fight in its tracks by simply yelling out 'Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch' .

English: A bit slow, pasty, couldn't drink a nun under the table, would run from a fight even if it was their best friend.

Just a stereotype, but half of that word can be read as 'typical'

Indeed.
Aussie: Hard drinking, BBQ taming, loutish, hate the royals etc.

Until you actually go over there and find that they are church going, lightweights who go to bed at 9pm and love the Royal Family.
I couldn't believe how quiet Sydney was on a week night after about half past nine. :E

[GeeRam]

Nigel an awkward ace, The Oberon ?
Nah, lovely chap. Down to earth “Midlander”. Totally focussed - probably like CY - and with a similar education I feel.

Hardly......'Our Nige' was a qualified Aerospace Engineer......gave up his job with Lucas to pursue a full time racing career.....which possibly gives him the very knowledge that CY lacked :E


I wonder if CY has ever wondered if the attitude of the Brits he met in WW2 was just them reacting to his own arrogant persona ...... nah of course it wouldn't :rolleyes:

[Pontius Navigator]

Turin, remember the six o'clock swill.

They would get ratted by 6 then we would carry on till midnight, as for pints, I think they had 3-4 glasses to the pint.

I think the Americans had smaller pints but 4 to a pitcher. Saved on refill time.

[BEagle]

Personally I thought that Chuck's cameo appearance in The Right Stuff was very amusing:

?v=sgYH64y8DgU

Question is, how much acting was he actually doing....;)

[langleybaston]

Until you actually go over there and find that they are church going, lightweights who go to bed at 9pm and love the Royal Family.
I couldn't believe how quiet Sydney was on a week night after about half past nine.

Church? Are you kidding?

When in Oz I have helped ring the bells for weddings.

No hymns in any of the services.

So I asked one vicar. He said "no point: they don't know the tunes, or they won't sing. They just come for the wedding". Short service though!

[Stanwell]

Turin,
I don't know where or who you stayed with when you were in Sydney - but I think I could guess.
Anyway, if Chucky-boy lobbed into town here with that attitude, he wouldn't have lasted long.
We have enough w@nkers of our own, thanks.

[SASless]

The Americans....terrible folk they are....always taking advantage of the British!

Perhaps a quick read might refresh some memories here.

A fellow named Churchill was not so dismissive of aid and assistance provided to the British during World War Two.

You might consider the legal issues FDR had to confront when trying to provide assistance to the British.

You harp you had to "pay" for that assistance...but you conveniently overlook you had not paid the Bill from WWI when you once again came with your hand out for assistance in the Second World War.

In December 1940....you were skint for funds to provide for your own defense.

FDR found a way to continue the military and economic aid to Great Britain.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1937-1945/lend-lease

[Chris_H81]

Wealthy, white nonagenarian in 'crotchety old git' shocker.

[Shack37]

During my time in the RAF my then sqn (206) took part in an exercise on detachment to Pax River USN base. On arrival we found that we had, in groups of 4 or 5, been allocated host families of members of the local sqns.


We were treated as family, invited to eat with them in their homes and taken sightseeing locally by said hosts.


Yeager is entitled to his opinión, based on his own experiences but from my personal experience I don´t believe it was widely shared.

[Pontius Navigator]

Shack, we had an extended time in Offutt. We were hosted by Harry Bendorf in return of previous hosting with John Pack. There were two other USAF majors there. Just before we returned to UK we hosted them in the O Club. While there we went u/s again. Immediately Ralph Kelly told us to go to bed, we were to fly as pax in his C97 to Riverside. On return they had to shut down an engine but he pressed on as we were a VIP deterrent crew. When we landed it was to find a very worried and now relieved DetCom as our jet was now serviceable.

The following day it went u/s again but that's another story.

[DC10RealMan]

All British people are awful with terrible teeth and warm beer shocker!

[The Oberon]

I have always found Americans to be amongst the most friendly and cooperative people I have ever met. Their husbands are a different matter.

[Shack37]

Posted by PN
The following day it went u/s again but that's another story.
Never happened in Bodo or Machrihanish;)

[onetrack]

PN - Thank you for the correction, I didn't have time to research the Diego Garcia deal, when I posted previously.
However, I note that even the Diego Garcia deal was still pretty one-sided, and the U.S. Diego Garcia deal negotiators must still be clinking champagne glasses over their "steal of a deal" ... :(

No monetary payment was made from the United States to the UK as part of this [Diego Garcia] agreement or any subsequent amendment. Rather, the United Kingdom received a US$14-million discount from the United States on the acquisition of submarine-launched ballistic missile system Polaris missiles per a now-declassified addendum to the 1966 agreement

[John Eacott]

Getting back to the "first past Mach 1" issue; whilst there is little in the nonsense about the F-84 on the first flight there seems incontrovertible evidence that it subsequently went supersonic well before the X-1.

I must have lucked in when meeting Bader (another childhood hero) as he was quite pleasant and affable; his autograph is tucked away somewhere safe, unlike the complete Beatles set which my sister has lost!

The hospitality from my many encounters with Americans has always been superb and I like to think it has always been reciprocated, but to be concerned because one elderly famous man may have a bee in his bonnet just whiles away the hours, I suppose ;)

[SASless]

Brother Eacott.....the truth is you always know where to find Cake and that mitigates your rough edges that are not worn down by your long tenure in Oz.

[Fieldmouse]

Americans - Late for the wars that mattered - started the others.

[megan]

it subsequently went supersonic well before the X-1The first flight of the F-86 to be monitored by NACA recorded Mach 1.03 on 21 November 1947. Welch had been flying the same profile on the days prior to the X-1 flight, although they were unmonitored. The X-1 flight was annotated "the first in level flight". Recognition perhaps that they were not the "very first"? Officially the 86 didn't make it until 26 April 1948.

[Joellouis]

I respect Gen Yeager's accomplishments, and his military service. But as a retired USAF officer I do NOT share his opinion of the British. I am grateful that my country has such a friend in this troubled world.

We truly are "divided" by somewhat different cultures and a common language. The way one handles such differences demonstrates his world view, whether provincial or sophisticated. But I have had no trouble making friends and enjoying the company of British citizens.

You Sir, are a gentleman.
I met an American some years ago and he was brash, rude, loud and self opinionated. I really disliked him and that set my own opinions of Americans right there. I'd literally spit venom at the sound of their voices.
Then a few years later, I travelled round Australia and met a family of Americans on holiday - sorry, vacation! They were the nicest people I'd met there after four months. We enjoyed eachothers company and we're still in contact today.
See? My incorrect view of all Americans just because I'd met one was righted after meeting another.
Mr Yeager is entitled to his opinions, but it probably would've been more acceptable if he'd worded it differently. I don't know the guy so I'm not going to make the same mistake again of generalising a nation.

[SASless]

Americans - Late for the wars that mattered - started the others.

How would the last two European Wars have turned out had we not shown up?

[PDR1]

Hard to say for WW1, but for part 2 one can only speculate that Japan and Germany would have followed through with their declared war and annexed the american colonies.

PDR

[SASless]

Seems to me the Germans could not cross the English Channel...so their coming to America seems a bit far fetched don't you think?

History reminds me that the British, with German(Hessians) help, could not hold on to the American Colonies.

[Genstabler]

Don't we think this is becoming rather childish, boys and girls? There are nice people and complete tossers in every organisation and every nation. Stereotypes are not a basis for sound judgement.

[PDR1]

I'm just countering the fallacy that somehow the USA joined WW2 to support Britain. The USA joined in because it came under direct (and unrelated) attack by Japan and shortly afterwards was the subject of declarations of war from both Japan and Germany.

PDR

[Heathrow Harry]

Genstabler is correct - not only silly but serioous thread drift

There's no law that says a great pilot or a brave pilot has to be pleasant or a role model- think Hermann Goering......................

It would be nice they WERE good people but it's not a requirement for the job

[Stanwell]

Oh, I don't know..
Reading between the lines, Winkle Brown seemed to think Hermann was sort of alright as a person.

[Haraka]

Possibly Hermann did rather more for his air force in his productive years than CY did for his ?

[West Coast]

USA joined WW2 to support Britain.

The US along with other nations were supporting Britain long before declaration of war.

[Pontius Navigator]

PDR, the US did not have to join in the war against Germany in the same way that Russia did not join the war against Japan.

As a neutral the USA did not supply war material directly to the UK. Had they remain as a friendly neutral they could have built Liberty ships but not tanks. The air war against Fortress Europe would have been a night war with Germany still committed to maintaining day fighters lest we switched tactics.

Africa could have dragged on much longer but logistics would have remained the Achilles heel for Rommel. D-Day would not have happened in 1944.

The atom bomb would not have been developed when it was.

The US would have been down to one aircraft carrier in 1943.

They would not have developed H2X when they did. Packard would not have built Merlins.

Russia would not have had the convoys.

Stalin would have been defeated.

Germany would control Europe.

[Ormeside28]

I was lucky enough to be trained as a pilot at I BFTS at Terrell in Texas. I had nothing but kindness from the locals and most of the instructors and certainly had first class training. I was "adopted" by a family and was in contact for many years post war. Travelling as a cadet was easy and I never experienced anything but kindness and hospitality. Later, taking a Shackleton to various US Naval bases on their east coast, we were treated extremely well and as fellow comrades in arms, shown everything. We are lucky to have such a good ally and I for one, hope that our special relationship holds, despite various folk, on both sides, trying to sow discord. It is a great pity that we do not have a joint operations room in the Middle East with US,UK and RUSSIA. ,!!

[Expatrick]

Stalin would have been defeated.

Germany would control Europe.

I challenge this assertion. The events before Moscow of December '41 illustrate that the Germans could never finally defeat the Soviets.

[Pontius Navigator]

Patrick, moot point. Stalin, personally, might have gone.

[Rigga]

Of course we had our own equivalent arrogant geezers the best example I can think of being in Dougie Bader - Arrogance personified.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rigga, and of course each Army had one VSO the same.

[dragartist]

Stanwell Re your #128
Not True at all. Eric refused to shake his hand when being interviewed as he was waiting for the Hangman. Eric described him as a terrible Nazi. When Eric asked him who he thought won the Battle of Britain, Herman said he thought it was a draw!

[Haraka]

Herman said he thought it was a draw!
As did Adolf Galland. With some reason.

[SASless]

Possibly Hermann did rather more for his air force in his productive years than CY did for his ?

Did not Goring contribute directly to the failures of the Luftwaffe as head of the organization as compared to Yeager who was just a Fighter Pilot in the US Army Air Corps.

[noflynomore]

Did not Goring contribute directly

No doubt just as much as Reading and Didcot...

[Genstabler]

If your aim is to achieve a particular goal which is essential if you are to be able to continue a further operational line of action, and you are prevented from achieving that goal, that ain't a draw. It's a defeat.

[onetrack]

One has to remember that cultural clashes are common, and that many people hold a, "one size fits all", opinion of other cultures that are substantially different to their own - which of course, is not true.

There's arrogance in every culture - but the Saxons seem to have had more than their fair share of it. There are many people with Saxon ancestry in America - but there are also many British people who carry Saxon ancestry, and practice a good deal of arrogance.

I recently crossed swords with a couple of "good ol' boys" on another forum - who were bragging about how, in WW1, (Gen.) John Joseph ("Black Jack") Pershing told them Brits where to get off, when he withdrew all his troops from under British control at the start of the real action for the American Doughboys in July 1918.
These "good ol' boys" were relishing how Jack Pershing told the Brits the Americans were going to fight WW1, on their terms - and they weren't going to be told what to do militarily, by any of those stinking, tea-sipping, Brits!

I had to point out to them, that the true story is actually a whole lot different. The Americans rocked up to WW1 simply without any real fighting experience.
In Army terms, they were "green reos", with no knowledge of infantry tactics, no knowledge of the cunning tactics used by the Germans - but full of gung-ho bravado.

The British were rightly concerned about the lack of tactical skills possessed by the Americans, and accordingly decided to "embed" (to use that very-recent, cute word) 10 companies of the Americans, with the Australian Diggers, to give them the very necessary grounding in basic infantry tactics, that the Americans needed.
Pershing was outraged about this, as he claimed the original agreement was the American Doughboys were to be kept in reserve as emergency forces to contain the Germans in case of a German breakout, or overrun of the Allied forces. Accordingly, he threatened to withdraw all his troops.

There were some more strained negotiations between Pershing and the British Generals, and Pershing finally realised, that the British plan probably did have merit - so he relented and allowed 4 American companies to be embedded with the Australian Diggers at the Battle of Hamel, to bring them up to speed.

Now, there wasn't the undercurrent of ill-feeling between the Australians and the Americans - just a degree of curiosity by the Diggers, at the difference in the way the Americans operated.
The Diggers were surprised at the lack of infantry tactics knowledge and training preparedness of the Americans - but they also quickly realised the American Doughboys didn't lack courage - in fact they were too "gung-ho", and the Diggers often had to pull the Doughboys back from getting themselves killed, by being too enthusiastic, or falling into cunning German traps.

The Diggers were quite happy to train up the Doughboys in effective infantry tactics - and the Doughboys were quick learners.
In fact, the infantry tactics taught by the Diggers to the Doughboys in 1918, have remained the world standard for effective modern infantry tactics, ever since.

The Battle of Hamel, organised and overseen by Gen. Sir John Monash, remains a classic of perfect co-ordination of men and equipment - of co-ordination of infantry, artillery and air forces, that set the basic principles of modern warfare in stone.
Even the timing of the action at Hamel was set to the minute. Monash planned the battle to succeed in 90 minutes, it took 94 minutes to carry it out, to its stunningly successful conclusion.

The AWM has a lot of information and photos of the interaction between the Diggers and the Doughboys during 1918. The relationships between the Diggers and Doughboys was more cordial and respectful of each other, than the relationship between the Doughboys and the Tommies.

It appears obvious there was still an undercurrent of lingering bitterness towards the British by a number of the Doughboys - and no doubt, some of that was due to a Tea Party event, that was still fresh in the minds of many Americans - and no doubt due to a large number of Americans having very recent Germanic ancestry.

A striking feature of the understanding of relationships by the Americans in WW1, was their failure to understand the cultural ties between the Aussies and the British. It appears many Americans thought the Aussies regarded the British as a former enemy, too.
They obviously failed to grasp the fact that many of the Diggers were of British birth, and Britain was still regarded as the Mother Country - even though the Diggers considered themselves substantially different, and believe they possessed more initiative than British Tommies - and of course, the Diggers didn't have the total deference to rank and class, that the British soldiers had.

To conclude, the "good ol' boys" never replied to my history correction - it probably made them choke on their grits and gravy, to find that they didn't invent modern infantry tactics, and go on to teach them to the rest of the world!

I won't even start on how the Americans took French tanks home at the end of WW1, and copied them!! :)

https://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j35/blair/

[TBM-Legend]

My first day in 1976 in London...

Head to train station enroute to RAF Museum. descend escalators. Cannot fathom the network. See a long haired chap masquerading as a railway worker...

"Q. sir how do we get to Hendon from here? A. __Take the train!'' and he scurried off....

[teeteringhead]

Surely if the B of B had been a draw, the Brits would have lost on penalties (sorry Cousins, that's a soccer joke.......)

[charliegolf]

"Q. sir how do we get to Hendon from here? A. __Take the train!'' and he scurried off....

That's unfortunate. Surly as some of the buggers are, they usually give spot on directions.

As to Yeager and the thread drift that's occured, a couple of things... First, accomplished as he is, he's an old git, and entitled to act like one in my view. Do accomplished people never talk shoite? Course they do (keep reading!). Do fighter pilots know everything- of course they think they do! The things he has over me..

Fighter pilot
War ace
Test pilot
Record breaker
Wife half his age

... don't mean I have to agree with his every utterance. Putin's view of Brits is probably more important to us.

CG

[SASless]

To be correct....Soccer is a joke!:E

[engineer(retard)]

To be correct....Soccer is a joke!

It is in the USA, they play it like a non contact sport. I'm surprised they don't wear crash helmets and padding ;)

[Robert Cooper]

Getting back to the OP, we British have been disliked for hundreds of years and we don't give a ****!

Bob C

[Shack37]

Getting back to the OP, we British have been disliked for hundreds of years and we don't give a ****!

Bob C




No, I think that´s the English:E


Tin hat..................goooooooooooo.

[Lonewolf_50]

At least this pissing match has been better than the usual Jet Blast fare ...

[Stanwell]

Agreed, Lonewolf.
I do, however, feel that someone will shortly be along to claim that either the Irish or the Austrians should bear responsibility for any discord.
(Incoming!!)

[Bevo]

From BBC America:

"Several months ago, I was intrigued to read the following comment in The Economist, (December 20, 2014): “To be snooty about Americans, while slavishly admiring them; this is another crucial characteristic of being British.”

While technically a quote about Brits, I do agree that we can be terribly snooty about Americans and their culture. Many of us arrive here with the belief that our English is the real English; we invented it, for Pete’s sake! Brits revel in endless discussion threads about the American use of “I could care less” instead of “I couldn’t care less,” while conveniently ignoring the fact that many Americans are equally appalled by this. And as this BBC article shows, we Brits often attribute “new” (and unwelcome) words to the American influence on our culture when, in fact, the word at fault originated in the U.K.

“Slavishly admiring them”? Hmmmm.. With Brits in the mother country, I usually sense more of a grudging appreciation of some aspects of American life—the cheap jeans, the summer weather or the fantastic natural sights, and there are always people who see the U.S. through Florida-vacation tinted spectacles. (There’s also a general pervasion of American pop culture in Britain.)

American Idol and X Factor creator Simon Cowell’s reflection rings rather truer for me: “I think America is a hard nut to crack. But once you get a toehold, it’s a great place for an entrepreneur because people are so enthusiastic, and you have the most enthusiastic audiences in the world.”

Obviously, most of us don’t have TV audience numbers to worry about, but we usually agree that the U.S. is much more of a “can do” place than our homeland, with its “Yes, but…” attitude, putting the dampers on anything that might get us ahead of ourselves, so to speak. People like Simon Cowell, might have been criticized for being insulting on American Idol, but his rags- to-riches success story never led to accusations of being “jumped up,” as it often does in the U.K. Ironically, much of Cowell’s vast success and wealth was achieved in the U.K. before he ever set foot across the Pond.

Ricky Gervais agreed with Cowell in this 2011 interview: “It’s often dangerous to generalize, but under threat, I would say that Americans are more ‘down the line.’ They don’t hide their hopes and fears. They applaud ambition and openly reward success. Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers. We embrace the underdog until it’s no longer the underdog. We like to bring authority down a peg or two. Just for the hell of it … Failure and disappointment lurk around every corner. This is due to our upbringing. Americans are brought up to believe they can be the next president of the United States. Brits are told, ‘It won’t happen for you.'”

Gervais’ point, that Brits are more comfortable with life’s losers, is also seen in comedy, according to Stephen Fry. In this 2012 interview, Fry draws a distinction between American and British comic heroes, believing that the American comic heroes are smart talkers who “can wisecrack their way out of anything,” while typical British comedians “try to be decent and honest” but are all essentially an “utter failure … on whom life craps from a terrible height,” such as Basil Fawlty, Del Boy from Only Fools and Horses or David Brent from The Office. One could argue however, that some American comedies such as Curb Your Enthusiasm, more closely resemble the British version, since Larry David‘s character could hardly be described as a winner.

Gervais has also talked at length about the differences between American and British humor, as many of us do. According to Gervais, in the 2011 interview, “There’s a received wisdom in the U.K. that Americans don’t get irony. This is of course not true. But what is true is that they don’t use it all the time. It shows up in the smarter comedies but Americans don’t use it as much socially as Brits.” And indeed, many Brits in the U.S. drop irony and sarcasm on arriving, finding that Americans take the comments seriously, which of course, ends up making us look mean-spirited." LINK (http://www.bbcamerica.com/anglophenia/2015/08/in-quotes-what-do-brits-think-about-americans)

[Art Smass]

Does anyone really give 2 hoots what Yeager thinks of the Brits??:rolleyes:

[SASless]

Most Americans could care less what Yeager thinks about anything!

[Underbolt]

Most Americans could care less what Yeager thinks about anything!

I see what you did there. :ok:

[megan]

Have a video of CY and Bob Hoover on stage together at a Society of Experimental Test Pilots convention story telling, and CY is quite entertaining. Of course, CY being in the presence of his peers was unable to pull any of his usual ego massaging elements. Remember CY (in his book?) berating a pilot, who he taken out in a T-33 over the Edwards lake for area famil, for landing on the lake and getting the aircraft bogged. Turned out CY had told the pilot to land there, such is the game he played, oneupmanship.

[charliegolf]

berating a pilot, who he taken out in a T-33 over the Edwards lake for area famil, for landing on the lake and getting the aircraft bogged.

Armstrong, no less.

[Stanwell]

Correct, CG.
While Yeager was notable for a couple of things, I'm afraid he seems to have become a bit of a 'legend in his own lunchtime'.
Not the kind of person I'd care to have around to dinner with friends.

[PDR1]

Most Americans could care less what Yeager thinks about anything!

Actually to learn there is a claim that he thinks is probably newsworthy...

PDR

[Hempy]

I had the pleasure to speak briefly to Bob Hoover in Tasmania after he'd been checked out and licensed as fit to fly in Australia after his licence had been revoked by the FAA.

An absolute and thorough Gentleman. My only beef was that he was so intent on asking me questions that I didn't get much of a chance to ask mine before our time was up.

Along with Winkle, the best aviator to grace the skies.

[PDR1]

I remember reading the comment made by the Australian examiner after giving Bob Hoover his flying test - something along the lines of "You can often learn a lot from the experienced pilot when you do these tests, and I certainly learned from this one!"

PDR

[Mr Mac]

With regards to our own Douglas B my father had in his words the "misfortune" to be in POW camp with him and in his hut. My father was one of the most tolerant and easy going men I have ever had the privilege to meet and to elicit his above comment DB must have been a bit of a handful. Apparently there was a cheer when he was transferred to another camp, possibly Colditz and was not missed at all.
Regards
Mr Mac

[megan]

"You can often learn a lot from the experienced pilot when you do these tests, and I certainly learned from this one!"Barry Diamond by name, ex Oz FAA, Sea Venom and Skyhawk driver, can't recall whether CO or Senior Pilot - SpazSinbad will know.

[AR1]

Overpaid. Oversexed. Overhere.

Well Chuck, I've done some time over there and while I had no nylons to hand out I cashed in mercilessly on the groundwork carried out by Hugh Grant films.

What goes around...

[SASless]

Overpaid. Oversexed. Overhere.

Just the half of it..... "Underpaid, Undersexed, and Under Eisenhower!".

[Brian W May]

Who actually gives a toss what Chuck Yeager liked or disliked?

Besides which it's really old 'news'. Not worth getting out of shape about.

[Rhino power]

...Not worth getting out of shape about.

166 replies spread over 9 pages would suggest otherwise... :}

-RP

[Willard Whyte]

Pretty sure there were (are still, in all probability) plenty of people in The State Department who are none too keen on Limeys either, judging by the dip clear hoops one had to jump through to get a UK Mil aircraft in and out of the USA.

Admittedly the hoops seemed to disappear quite quickly when ASCOT OPs were presented with The Bahamas as an alternative to entering The USA direct from Curaçao at 6 hours notice...

[ShyTorque]

I briefly met Douglas Bader when he attended RAF Linton-on-Ouse to present 15 course with their flying badges (the final course to get them after BFTS). I was disappointed, from his arrogant and seemingly rather bad tempered attitude, because he didn't exactly match the mould I thought he was cast from. He seemed to be most keen to tell young aspiring pilots how much better he was than they would ever possibly be.

[West Coast]

Head over to Jet Blast, you'll find the Brit versions of Yeager.

[SASless]

Errrrr......ahhhhh.....there is but only one Chuck Yeager and at Jet Blast there are....oh never mind!

[pax britanica]

I had heard alot of the Bader stories including one from a friends father who was Flt Sgt on a station bader was at . But given the guy lost both his legs he needed to be a bloody minded man just to recover to the extent that he did -I don't think iwould be Mr Smileyafter losing both legs as a young man either

[Stanwell]

Maybe so, pax b..
But whose fault was it, hmm?
One rampant ego ... 'Watch out, here he comes!'

[BEagle]

Most VC10K captains would share the role of operating pilot leg-and-leg about.

Except, that is, for a certain ex-Victor pilot.

"Morning, Dougie", I once said to his co-pilot.

"Why do you call me Dougie?", he asked.

"Well, you're flying with XXXXXXXXX, aren't you?"

"Yes - so?"

"Well, in that case you won't have any operating legs. Just like Bader!"

[Molemot]

Kenneth Moore was the best thing ever to happen to D-B....

[Martin the Martian]

Being disabled or incapacitated is not in any means an excuse to be a miserable old git.

I've worked with people who had a lot worse physically than Mr. Bader, and for the most part they were the most positive people it has ever been my privilege to associate with.

[Pontius Navigator]

Gus Walker

[Alber Ratman]

I did hear the story once that Bader pitched up at Colt for some function and was rather upset that the guy manning the gate had absolutely no idea whom Tin Legs was and was asking him for ID. Yeager hated Leiston? That is not hard, it is not difficult to understand why the A12 stops being dual carriageway long before it bypasses the place.

[SASless]

I heard a story about an encounter between the two shrinking violets....Alan Bristow and Douglas Bader....when Bader was the Shell Oil Aviation Advisor.

Somehow...for inexplicable reasons the two had some sort of disagreement....who would guess such a thing could happen of course.

At some point during the discussion Bristow is supposed to have chucked Bader into a Swimming Pool....Tin Legs and all and stomped off to quieter places.

It is suggested that may have been the reason Bristow went Years before getting any Shell Contracts.

With those two fellers....it would not surprise me if that yarn was true.