Ryanair to recruit 1000 Pilots [Archive]

SpannerInTheWerks

5th Oct 2016, 16:34

Trouble is, unlike a lot of other airlines, they will have to overcome the stigma that has grown up around working for MOL before they will attract the mainstream pilots ... and with other airlines recruiting too, will there be the long (20 years) predicted shortage of pilots now .. ?!

This would seem a good time for any pilots who think Ryanair needs to up its game in terms of management attitudes to rekindle the debate and let the airline show that it is prepared to change. Or is it the same old MOL and hard management which has, by all accounts, been the hallmark of Ryanair in the past?

172_driver

5th Oct 2016, 17:16

They shouldn't have made it so obvious that Uncle Sam Needs You :ok:

SpannerInTheWerks

5th Oct 2016, 19:41

... I've read elsewhere that around 100 pilots have been leaving a month ... ?

So, if the net requirement is for 1,000 pilots, it seems as though they are talking about having to recruit over 2,000 pilots in the coming year ... ?!

I appreciate that pilots can't continue to haemorrhage at that rate, however it does show that my previous Post has some relevance insofar as attitudes are going to have to change with MOL et al in order for the stigma to be first overcome and before substantial improvements will be realised.

Other Threads indicate that Ryanair isn't the best deal, so where are all these experienced type-rated pilots expected to come from ... ? Not the UK it would seem ... ?

Oh, and then there's the Sword of Damocles hanging over Ryanair's and its Agent's corporate heads in the form of ongoing tax investigations. Now that will put many pilots off. A friend of mine who flew for them said years ago: 'I'm a UK pilot working for an Irish airline based in Spain, let the tax man try and find me ...!'. Well that tax man does seem to be using best endeavours to unravel that tangled web - and in the case of the HMRC and IR35 regulations it will indeed be difficult for pilots and their employer to convince them that they can be 'substituted' in accordance with the regulations.

Interesting times ahead and, as MaverickPrime has suggested, time to buy an extra large tub of popcorn ...

Let the story begin ...

INKJET

5th Oct 2016, 19:53

FR have always been ahead of the game in terms of Ryanair if not its pilots staying on the right side of the law tax wise at least legally.

A 1000 pilots for 50 aircraft is 20 pilots per aircraft which can't be right so the gross figure probably includes attrition. In any event with with other operators adding aircraft is there that much sim capacity out there given most of the national legacy airlines are flying airbus in Europe ?

jayc004

5th Oct 2016, 20:19

Just like when Ryanair buys planes, they don't actually own them. They are all leased in to the company (or so the ownership placards on the aircraft would suggest).
Expect 1000 new zero hour agency contracts to be available.

doniedarko

5th Oct 2016, 21:28

Expect 1000 new zero hour agency contracts to be available.

Adding further pressure to existing T&C's in other airlines.
Europe is pointless in the short term until Ryr's pay policy comes full circle and creates a shortage due to lack of entrants. There are signs it's happening already and it's the only scenario where employment conditions will improve in Ryr. Market conditions may effect change it certainly won't be the myopic employees.
"Always getting better "
....For MOL
....For Shareholders
....For all the other airline bean counters

BluSdUp

6th Oct 2016, 19:32

This is good news for terms and conditions, me thinks.
Senior first officers, if I can call a chap with less than 4 years in the industry , are leaving in large numbers.
I have seen many go to Icelandair , Finnair and SAS lately. Not so many to Norwegian.
Also talked with a Dutch FO going BA longhaule, that is a first.

The selection of FOs in RYR that are ready, able and willing to upgrade is rapidly diminishing .
It is going to be an interesting winter for the trainers,I wish them good luck.

I-AINC

7th Oct 2016, 11:35

Lot of people are leaving of course for better life and better contracts.

SpannerInTheWerks

7th Oct 2016, 15:40

You reap just what you sow ...

Boeing 7E7

7th Oct 2016, 19:41

You're all talking nonsense. Ryanair are not going to change their T&Cs because there is a plentiful supply of cadet pilots coming out of flight schools to fill FO positions. While many FOs are and will leave to other airlines, there are still enough suitable FOs to undertake the required upgrade courses and become captains. To think otherwise is simply wishful thinking. But do carrying saying otherwise, as others have been saying for years, cause it's great to see such optimism!

MaverickPrime

7th Oct 2016, 19:52

Really? :confused:

I think the combined output of CTC/OAA/FTE is something like 600/yr, plus some of those are bound straight for ME or FE carriers.

1000 for RYR
400 for EZY
Not to mention the rest

Eventually they will run out of people with £130k lying around, think there was something like 31% less CPLs issued in 2015, people have bound to have got the message that the cost of training outweighs the 'rewards'.

The chickens will come home to roost someday in the boardroom in some shape or form, life has a nasty way of finding equilibrium to put it mildly! :E

Boeing 7E7

7th Oct 2016, 20:12

Really? :confused:

Really!

The chickens will come home to roost someday in the boardroom in some shape or form, life has a nasty way of finding equilibrium to put it mildly! :E

The old fabled pilot shortage...Don't take this the wrong way, because there is no malice intended, but how long have you guys who think things are on the cusp of change, been in the industry? A few years perhaps? The economic cycle goes up and down the airline industry is hugely affected by it. The good times generally don't last more than 3 years and we are over 18 months into the good times. The bad times are just around the corner and they last longer than the good times. As I say, no offence intended. But you guys really don't know your (our) economic history. But good luck!

SpannerInTheWerks

7th Oct 2016, 21:54

Boeing 7E7

I read recently that someone stated that they had survived 3 recessions in their career.

Life is one long recession with a few good times in between ...

It seems the past 40 years have been like that for me ... lol

MaverickPrime

7th Oct 2016, 22:20

I don't mean to come across as a naive starry eyed wannabe, I went to the integrated schools at the ripe old age of 18, I passed the easy aptitude tests and was fed all the PR, my wise and cynical family rightly steered me away and low and behold the crash happened a few months later. I thankfully escaped unscathed to train another day.

I'm fully aware of the cycle system in aviation. Although, I'm in it for the long haul excuse the pun. The stock market is the reference point if you like and it works the same way. If you look back the last 100 years the markets have went in cycles, but overall they have steadily grown. So, in theory, I'll catch the upturn eventually.

Cue Ryanair,

MOL, amongst others, business strategy is generally expansion, expansion, expansion, stop expanding and the shareholders will get cold feet. In the long run FR and others will have to recruit pilots for the pointy end if they want to keep afloat; despite what the markets do, short of a nuclear meltdown. Thus, with the amount of a/c orders so big versus pilots available this is why I think RYR and others are in for a crewing problem.

In around about way I've just explained the old looming pilot shortage theory I will concede, yea it will probably turn out to be less dramatic in reality. What I'm saying is they can't keep reducing salaries and inc training costs infinitely, there is a bottom line....somewhere!

Depone

8th Oct 2016, 06:43

The good times generally don't last more than 3 years and we are over 18 months into the good times. The bad times are just around the corner and they last longer than the good times.

Very true.

However, the one European airline that has a history of expansion in recessions is Ryanair.

While it is understandable that young FOs see the likes of BA, Virgin, Thomson, Monarch and Jet2 as career airlines, one ought to look at how those airlines have been effected by past recessions.

The 'greener grass' is more likely to be mown than the 'hardy, stubbly' variety. Remember: first in, first out.

MonarchOrBust

8th Oct 2016, 07:50

More than 2/3 of RYR hirers are European and coming from countries where €4000 per month is a salary that let's them live like kings and where attitudes to home ownership are not like ours. These terms are bad for British nationals and the Irish along with a few other countries but the tax dodging young FOs from Italy, Portugal and Spain (they know who they are) will relish the salary and payment method for many many years to come. These are countries with completely failed airlines. They can supply the young FOs for RYR's needs forever.

Boeing 7E7

8th Oct 2016, 08:49

These are countries with completely failed airlines. They can supply the young FOs for RYR's needs forever.

And there lies the fact that our young and inexperienced pilots (I was most definitely one of them once) have failed to grasp. There is a plentiful supply of experienced Captains and FOs in numerous airlines around Europe that will come on to the market, desperate for a job. Ryanair will be their saviour and the T&Cs offered to them will not be the ones on the table now. You guessed it. They will be lower, significantly lower.

Boeing 7E7

8th Oct 2016, 08:57

In around about way I've just explained the old looming pilot shortage theory I will concede, yea it will probably turn out to be less dramatic in reality. What I'm saying is they can't keep reducing salaries and inc training costs infinitely, there is a bottom line....somewhere!

For the reasons I and others have suggested, the bottom line is much lower than here. I wish you luck in your naivety and wish I saw things your way. But that would be to ignore the lessons of history.

RAT 5

8th Oct 2016, 09:04

But you guys really don't know your (our) economic history.

The current economic climate for becoming a pilot has a very short history.
What has changed dramatically in then past 15 years; and it is really only that short, is the financial entry point for pilots to airlines. At the end of the 90's the TR was often paid for by the airlines. You gambled with paying for the CPL and looked for a job later. Another option introduced in 90's was bonding. That didn't cost you anything, only time.
Then the huge expansion started at the beginning of 00's. The traditional CPL was being replaced by MPA schemes. Airlines were overwhelmed with cadet applications and introduced self-funded TR courses. CTC schemes grew up, P2Fly, CPL + TR + 6 months line training schemes popped up. The whole market place changed hugely. Entry costs went up and rewards went down. The growth of LoCo's changed everything, even for the big players. But the big players didn't dumb-down completely, not yet. There is a very transparent relationship for a wannabee to see between self-funded entry costs and what career and rewards one might hope for. IMHO the % of cadets flocking to join the self-funded schemes, AND who expect to spend >10years in that same company, is quite small. I'd expect many to grab whatever lifeboat is passing to 'get on the ladder' and then search for more glamorous or financially rewarding pastures ASAP.
I think cadets who want to gain an MPA CPL and huge debt, and then hope they can find a job later to repay the debt, are dwindling because the money source to lend the money is dwindling. I know of many who finished CPL flight school >3 years ago and are still waiting for interview, anywhere. It doesn't send signals of confidence to the next generation.
As has been said survival of the LoCo is via continued expansion. RYR and the other big ones are like fish, they have to keep moving to breath.
To crew that expansion they need to introduce schemes taking a cadet from zero to type rating to RHS within a given time frame and known transparent financial package. They order a/c many years ahead, they need to do the same with home-grown pilots. If they don't it would not be a surprise to find a/c sitting on parking waiting for crew. The idea that expansion could be crewed by the airlines that were driven to go bust is long gone. The expansion needs to be managed in total. That requires vision and commitment. The cadet joins the scheme knowing what is involved and what they will get out of it over a given period. It's an eyes open entry rather than groping in the dark and hoping for the best.

HidekiTojo

8th Oct 2016, 09:12

The bottom will line will look something like this:

200k to train
Pay for all training everything Inc recurrent
Floating Base
Salary of around £800-1000pcm net
Variable roster

That's for Fo in today's money. Just wait until the next recession and the screw will tighten. So far ryr have made it through the good times with no improvement.

HeartyMeatballs

8th Oct 2016, 09:27

I don't think you're far from the truth to be honest.

Floating bases already here.
Some pay for recurrent.
Variable rosters are more the norm rather than exception.

The financials aren't quite there yet. However I'm now seeing £120,000 mentioned as training costs on here. In my day it were around £90,000-£100,000. No double Brexit will be used as an excuse to increase prices. I suppose there would be a genuine cost base increase to FTOs.

The scary thing is that if £200,000 was the price tag you'd still have a queue round the block. You've got the social media aspect and you can't put a price on that. Most of the kids I see joining have their phones glued to their hands taking selfies. There's an EK pilot with a vast amount of followers selling the dream.

RAT 5

8th Oct 2016, 10:58

And then there is HMRC delving into the past tax affairs of BBC presenters who claimed self-employment via 'service companies' and thus dodging huge tax bills. The newspaper article suggests that HMRC, if it finds guilt on the part of the presenters, will also find culpable guilt on behalf of the BBC. Sound familiar? Added to that the attack PM. May says she'll make on bogus zero hour contracts. It would seem the future of 'self-employment' of pilots might soon be a thing of the past, and that will change the playing field future wannabes.

Mikehotel152

9th Oct 2016, 18:21

Nobody will pay £200k to earn £1k pcm.

RAT 5

9th Oct 2016, 18:36

desperate to sign up because "I just want to fly".

Eventually the message all get through that the days of 'flying a jet-liner' are dwindling and in the next generation it will be over. Then what? Those of us packed up recently had the best of it.

MaverickPrime

9th Oct 2016, 20:20

RAT 5, is sadly right. Although, when I choose to finally go for this industry I accepted that RYR/EZY was the probably the best I'd get, that's probably why some of you think I'm nuts!

However, paying for education, training and healthcare etc etc is something we are going to have to get used to in life, especially if your are in my generation, if you think otherwise then I'm not the deluded one.

safelife

9th Oct 2016, 21:47

Yes, you are nuts.
Because LoCo for life is just not sustainable. Health wise.

RAT 5

10th Oct 2016, 04:25

Because LoCo for life is just not sustainable. Health wise.

True. The LoCo's will need more pilots as many of the older more financially secure ones will go part-time. They will demand 50-80% rosters; hence more pilots. LoCo's have relied upon self-funded cadets; that may change as funding dries up. They also benefited from qualified pilots being on the market as they drove less flexible airlines to the wall. So they benefit from greatly reduced training costs from the old traditional model.
The major more traditional airlines are also expanding and looking to cut costs. They seem attractive career moves for those near burn-out in LoCo's. There is a belief that those guys are well trained and well experienced, so easy to recruit into the long-haul/short-haul operators. The majors now have a source of ready trained pilots at reduced training costs. It will depend how soon the change their philosophy of preferring home grown talent from zero in their own flight schools. Can they teach old dogs new tricks. Will it be a sound idea to have a LoCo captain as a 2nd officer in a seniority system? This will further put a load on LoCo's recruiting numbers.
It is very difficult to predict what the pilot market will be in 20 years; indeed what a life-long career will look like. Will sacrosanct seniority still rule in the traditional majors? 30 years ago pilot mobility was very limited. Look at it now. There are many various options to switch employers; sometimes with little or no backward step.
I think the LOCo's need to step into the homegrown training market and accept that many pilots will stay with them for max 10 years. The majors might need to change their recruitment strategies. Time will tell and it will be the bean counters who decide.

RAT 5

10th Oct 2016, 19:11

You need a good union or good negotiating powers. I too fell foul of this abuse of part-time. I worked a 50% roster in days of duty, but because I did no SBY's I achieved >60% productivity for 50% pay. After I left the said abusing outfit a union arrived and 50% roster was just that. It was a shared roster but the total FTL for any period was maxed at 50% of the limits and they received 50% pay. I was the pathfinder and, as often is the case, got shafted. I have mates in BA, KLM, who work a union agreed 50%, 66% 80% roster for the ratio rewards.
If you allow yourself to be shafted by doing 100% work for 80% pay then.............

Mr Boombastick

10th Oct 2016, 20:08

Plenty of guys working in ryr part time, 13 off 5 on and still flying 800+ hours. On self employed contracts so still earning the same amount of money for lots of days off. Just expect to be flogged on the 5 days on.

RAT 5

11th Oct 2016, 08:14

Plenty of guys working in ryr part time, 13 off 5 on and still flying 800+ hours.

That would be possible, and perhaps desirable, for 'self-employees'. However, I was the victim of that attitude as an employee, non-union. 50% pay for 65% productivity. The advent of a union made it more honest. 50/50. Let's hope the contractor has a nice winter sun escape to enjoy, recover and spend the money.

eduelp

11th Oct 2016, 21:52

Sadly all these ever decreasing T&C don't have a guiltier party than the pilot community itself...

We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.

Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...

And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...

Reversethrustset

12th Oct 2016, 00:04

eduelp, you are absolutely spot on.

MonarchOrBust

12th Oct 2016, 06:36

Eduelp might be right but do you honestly expect 21 to 25 yo who have only ever flipped burgers for a living to know and understand legacy terms and conditions?

HidekiTojo

12th Oct 2016, 09:05

No monarchorbust but the older established pilots did and didn't do a thing. Now some of them get upset at the thought of a 25 year old captain who does the job better than they do.

RAT 5

12th Oct 2016, 12:16

Did REPA achieve anything? Did IALPA, after the huge increase in subs from RYR pilots, achieve anything? Why not? If either of those organisations could not coordinate any action then an ERC has no chance?

Jimmy Hoffa Rocks

19th Oct 2016, 22:57

eduelp

Right on.

Time for pilots to stop accepting poor conditions, pay to fly.

Price is what you pay. Value is what you get.

What we think, we become.

We all need to play our part and be responsable to that the ones who have their asses on the line get the pay they deserve.

Remember the CEOs get bonuses to negotiate our pay less.

Until pilots stand up like men....

Not easy but worth fighting for better conditions and get the respect back. As the Sully movie comes out

MaverickPrime

20th Oct 2016, 07:53

Just got this off ppjn:

"new agency called bluesky set up with much lower pay rates. Capt rates 125e per hr vs 145 storm, top fo rate 63e per hr vs 83 on brookfield or 75 with storm..."

Any truth to it?

If true it, its in stark contrast to the record profits Ryanair are making at the minute.

ExDubai

20th Oct 2016, 10:14

According to an german newspaper that's correct. It's mentioned in the Sueddeutsche

In einem internen Bluesky-Schreiben, das WDR, NDR und SZ vorliegt, werden die Details der neuen Arbeitsverträge dargestellt. Demnach werden die Piloten weiterhin nur nach Stunden bezahlt, Kapitäne bekommen rund 125 Euro, Co-Piloten 63 Euro, hinzu kommt noch Urlaubsgeld. Erreichen die Piloten die maximal zulässige Zahl von 900 Stunden pro Jahr, verdienen Kapitäne etwa 125 000 Euro, die Co-Piloten etwa die Hälfte. Allerdings zahlt Bluesky dem Schreiben zufolge kein Basisgehalt und will nur 450 Flugstunden pro Jahr garantieren. Bei Krankheit verdienen die Piloten nichts.

Guaranteed are 450 hours, holiday pay and no sick pay
Ryanair will Piloten nun doch anstellen - Wirtschaft - Süddeutsche.de (http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/scheinselbstaendigkeit-ryanair-will-piloten-feste-jobs-geben-aber-kein-festes-gehalt-1.3163173)

RAT 5

20th Oct 2016, 10:15

ExDubai

20th Oct 2016, 10:29

I would say they offer only a contract from this particular agency. So no choice between the different agency's

MaverickPrime

20th Oct 2016, 10:51

MP. Are you suggesting that an airline can force a self-employed contractor to be provide their services via one agency instead of another, with no choice, when one agency is offering lower rates than another?

Just to clarify, I'm NOT stating or suggesting anything, the info is nothing to do with me. I've pulled the info in my previous post from ppjn.

Ryanair pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Ryanair)

Pretty drastic reductions if indeed true, to spell it out:

Storm Captain E145 x 850hrs = E123,250 gross pa
'bluesky' Captain E125 x 850hrs = E106,250 gross pa

Brookfield SFO E83 x 850hrs = E70,550 gross pa
Storm SFO E75 x 850hrs = E63,750 gross pa
'bluesky' SFO E63 x 850hrs = E53,550 gross pa

172_driver

20th Oct 2016, 11:00

Is the employment model with Bluesky the same as with Brookfield/Storm?

I have a gut feeling this model is similar to the cabin crew arrangement (and Norwegian), i.e. direct employment with the agency. Would it not be suicidal to put up another self-employment scam after all the fuss that's been with that employment model in Germany?

MaverickPrime

20th Oct 2016, 11:04

If that is the case, its arguably a step in the right direction, although the rates of pay are a step in the wrong direction!

I-AINC

20th Oct 2016, 11:36

Brookfield -> Investigation -> Brookfield closed.
Storm Mc Ginley (lower pay) -> Investigation -> Storm closed.
Bluesky (lower pay) -> guess in a couple of years.

And so on.... Congratulations.

RAFAT

20th Oct 2016, 13:58

As eduelp eloquently said on the previous page:

Sadly all these ever decreasing T&C don't have a guiltier party than the pilot community itself...

We have seen and accepted all these ever decreasing T&C for many many years with no action whatsoever. This is even more true in airlines of the likes of RYR.

Don't blame recessions, don't blame the lack of European Commission support, don't even blame MOL. In the end it is just us the pilots having no balls at all the utter culprits of this situation. It really pisses me off...

And until that changes, the T&Cs all over Europe will keep going down...

...........and now we see this new agency arrive with markedly lower levels of pay which, let's not be naive about this, some pilots will accept without question.

We, as a pilot community, are indeed the "utter culprits of this situation."

RAT 5

20th Oct 2016, 20:04

Indeed. What is very sad is the reversal of old edicts. I have an old mento from my father which he had on his desk throughout his management career. "Things go wrong from the top down." It used to be true in the days of respectful ethics. It related to internal workings of the company and any effects on productivity & profit. It was the chiefs who had the greatest effect on those not the indians.
Sadly, the same can not now be said of T's & C's. Under pressure from the top the lower levels have capitulated and allowed things to to go wrong from the bottom. Back to the future and the middle ages of peasantry and land owners.

Damianik

21st Oct 2016, 13:50

I came across some info about the bluesky, apparently they were forced to create this setup as they now will have to pay a certain amount of social contribution , not much but some, and give holiday pay and son on to be able to be legal in Germany , this setup of course required to move the money from pilots pocket to company as to be the same cost overall. In all honesty , a direct employed pilot with Ryanair can't be expected to pay all taxes and legal social security and earn -50% net of a contractor that refuses to pay , in most cases , the most basic contributions and laught his way forward (ex. 3700 FO Ryanair , 7800 FO Brooksfield, seen with my own 2 eyes) . Still not ideal but this is slightly more plain field . But I may be wrong, all this info was from a forum of pilots working for the mentioned company .

SpannerInTheWerks

7th Nov 2016, 18:12

I'm always surprised that the UK HMRC hasn't clamped down heavily on contract pilots.

This must be a political expedient rather than one based purely on regulatory considerations.

Self-employed people must, together with other considerations, have the opportunity to substitute themselves and should be able to show that they do not have a fixed location to carry out there duties. Otherwise it could be construed that they are 'employed'.

How a pilot could 'substitute' their services (by allowing another, similarly qualified individual, to carry out their duties in their absence) is hard to imagine - and the left or right hand seat of a jet is a pretty 'fixed' as their base through which they carry out those duties.

This employment -v- self-employment arguments are ongoing in many industries - maybe the HMRC aren't really that bothered after all.

But it is a real concern and any decent contract for professional services will make it VERY clear that you are NOT an employee by expressly stating that it is not a contract of employment.

Maybe the airlines make that very clear too - the problem is that the manner in which the service is provided contradicts any terms and conditions stated to the contrary and the regulations of the HMRC.

I've stated in the past that one English pilot I met, who flew with an Irish carrier, openly stated that if the HMRC could track him down as a UK pilot, flying for an Irish carrier and based in Spain good look to them. They haven't so far, so lots of tax evaded there ... !!! lol

Kim Jong Il

7th Nov 2016, 18:22

Out of curiosity. If one would join now non type rated with 2800 TT of which 2000 Jet. How long before a shot at the left seat?

I-AINC

7th Nov 2016, 18:27

For the command you need:

- 2900h TT
- 1300H on JAR25 aircraft
- 500h on 737
- 1 winter with Ryanair
- 2 sim with grade good or better

Do the maths

gtseraf

7th Nov 2016, 23:14

in everyone's rush to get a left seat in a shiny new jet, they are accepting reduced/lower contracts and terms to get the left seat. They have achieved, in aviation terms, instant gratification.

Where to from there?

NOWHERE!!!

After a short time in the industry, a mid twenty something pilot is in the left seat of a shiny new jet, on poor conditions. Now the trick is to find a job with the great package the kid saw when he/she was young. Ooops, that package no longer exists.

I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better

RAT 5

8th Nov 2016, 09:23

I think the big change will come when the present group of younger pilots realise this, see what the next 40 years in the industry at these poor conditions will be like and start demanding better

There are those who opinion that this realisation will cause young aspiring pilots to change course and not sign up. Supply & demand forces might then come into play. China seems to be throwing money like confetti. There must be a reason for it. Will it ever happen in the western world? Doubt it, but there does need to be an adjustment.

doniedarko

8th Nov 2016, 14:09

McJobs :ugh:

ExDubai

19th Dec 2016, 13:33

Interesting development in Germany.

Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Details (http://www.vcockpit.de/en/presse/pressemitteilungen/details/news/piloten-der-ryanair-in-deutschland-schliessen-sich-zusammen.html)

Pilots of Ryanair in Germany join together

The German based pilots of the airline Ryanair founded a Company Council today under the umbrella of the German Airline Pilots Association (Vereinigung Cockpit) (VC).

For the first time, Ryanair pilots are organizing themselves in Germany in order to avoid the airline's questionable treatment of its employees. The goal will be to positively influence Ryanair's employment conditions. "What is self-evident for other employees in Germany, we must first achieve at Ryanair," says a member of the Company Council. "Decent employment contracts instead of atypical employment is one of the main goals of the Company Council."

Based on the principle, pilots for pilots, the Company Council is composed of active Ryanair pilots representing all groups. Members include Captains and First Officers who are directly employed as well as working for Ryanair on the so-called "Contractor model". To protect the Company Council from possible reprisals from Ryanair, the members of the Council will remain anonymous for the time being.

The current situation at Ryanair creates uncertainty within the pilot body and puts unusual pressure on the employees. The on-going court trials and investigations, including many house searches in Germany, show just how dramatic the situation is for the Ryanair pilots.

"The founding of the Ryanair Company Council clearly shows that the airline's pilots are no longer willing to accept the doubtful methods used by their employer. In the future, they will act united to achieve their basic employee rights," says Ilja Schulz, president of the German Airlines Pilots Association.

"In Germany we have workers' rights which apply to all pilots based here. Ryanair must finally acknowledge this. Ryanair pilots must be able to express their wishes and concerns about working conditions and salary without fear of discrimination from the management, " says Schulz.

The newly formed group benefits from the long-standing experience of the German Airlines Pilots Association in aviation safety and employee representation within the aviation industry.

This could be very interesting....

Direct Bondi

24th Feb 2017, 18:24

Germany is a signatory to the conventions of the International Labor Organization. Those representing Ryanair pilots in Germany should read the ILO Guide to Regulating the Employment Relationship in Europe:-

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

“GERMANY– “Employee-like persons” (or quasi workers) are recognized in Germany (so-called arbeitnehmerahnliche person). Labor courts have jurisdiction in relation to employee-like persons and the general terms and conditions of their contracts are subject to judicial supervision.
Employee-like persons are entitled to collective bargaining. The essential features of the category of employee-like persons are statutorily established in Section 12a of the Act on Collective Bargaining Agreements”

The same ILO conventions defining the ‘employment relationship’ and associated collective bargaining rights apply to pilots at another low cost carrier. For whatever reason, those chumps would rather pay union dues for representation to the service provider agency, rather than representation to the airline controlling their working and “family” life.

Piltdown Man

24th Feb 2017, 22:51

Ignoring the race to bottom in T's & C's, one thing has been over looked. And that, very simply, is Ryanair's training and operating methods. They turn out good if not excellent pilots. But their lack of loyalty to their staff means their experienced ones will leave as soon as they are unhappy with their lot. Their loyalty to RYR is at the same level as their customers - little more than one flight. That has to be an expensive way of doing business.

RavenOne

24th Feb 2017, 23:45

..................

172_driver

25th Feb 2017, 14:25

As long as they're left to pushing buttons in the right sequence.
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I am one of them. But it wasn't thanks to their rigid SOPs and scare mongering over FD-off approaches that got my hand-eye coordination back from instructing days.

Nil further

26th Feb 2017, 09:32

Piltdown Man & Raven 1.

"Good if not excellent pilots"

Genuine questions
1. What is an excellent pilot? What sets him/he apart from their peers?
2.What is unique about FR training that they turn out so many of these excellent pilots ?
3.which airlines are not turning out excellent pilots ?
4.do you both work for FR and what other major airlines have you worked for that would give you the experience base to make the above statement ?

172_driver

26th Feb 2017, 11:04

The excellent TREs are a key part of that. And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite. However it is a pity that proper 'Mk1 eyeball' circuits are verboten, as that really does show up a good pair of hands, and saves fuel. (And a bad pair of hands, so I guess that's why)

Both of it, raw data and eye balling a visual, are required skills don't you think? After all the recruitment team thinks so as they test you on a raw data at the interview.

The visual requires finesse, but the raw data requires more mental capacity as you are bouncing around, in and out of clouds, configuring, slowing, changing winds. And regular practice is required to hone those skills. Unfortunately we really only have one chance during line flying, as any company likely takes a dim view at unnecessary go-arounds. At least we could be honest about it and say "we're only as good as the automatics".

Blue06

26th Feb 2017, 14:17

Well, I have worked at several different airlines in 25 years or so, so I think that would give me the experience base to confirm that Ryanair copilots, and presumably Captains are very good indeed; certainly well above the average in Europe. Good handling, good SOP adherence, and not least, good airmanship.

I think you (and others praising FR pilots skill level) might be somewhat confused... there is a difference between a pilot, and what you seem to applaud, a system operator, which is what FR creates.

I agree, FR pilots might be excellent at operating the systems, with one of the most comprehensive SOPs in Europe. Everything is controlled to the tiniest detail. And with good reason, as they employ hundreds of low-time people with 200hrs. When they finish their simulator licence (MPL), they know how to push the buttons and what speed/config to have at the different phases of flight.
However I have talked to several ex-FR Captains and DY-instructors (DY has hired quite a few FR F/Os the last few years) and they tell a different story. Ask a FR F/O to do a visual approach and see what happens...
Of course this doesn't apply to every FR pilot, but many did not know how to fly a visual, even with autopilot basic modes. And flying manually was almost regarded as something "dangerous" and not to be done unless they really had to.
What kind of "pilots" is that?! Excellent system operators? Pherhaps... Excellent pilots? I beg to differ...

I'm not blaming the pilots themselves, because anyone can do anything with training. This is a management issue, and as a result of hiring pilots with no flying experience.

And in my book, a propensity to hand fly to 20000 feet, or pester to fly raw data does not impress me much. Done at an inappropriate time, it frankly does the opposite.
I totally agree with you, if done at an inappropriate time is may increase the risks, but your "either/or" mindset is unfortunate. A pilot should be proficient at both aspects. Yes, we have to know our SOP, FMS, automation etc, but we must also know how to take over and do things manually, if/when things fail.

JaxofMarlow

26th Feb 2017, 16:06

And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ?

lederhosen

26th Feb 2017, 19:39

I am not an apologist for Ryanair. But there are definitely worse contracts around. You get to fly newish airplanes with what most consider good training and sops. If you pass muster you are be pretty much guaranteed an upgrade and can move on to the sandpit/China or your national carrier in due course. I do accept that forty years of this is probably not sustainable. But 100k plus after three plus years is hardly exploitation.

172_driver

26th Feb 2017, 21:17

And Blue06, do these guys move right to left with the same level of manual flying skills ?

On a recurrent sim I unfroze my ATPL. The TRE for the day told me how he had to fail a guy the previous day for cocking up three raw data ILSes from intercept heading.

To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner

Sounds like the typical Ryanair excuse. Other airlines actively encourage manual flying and has no limit on FD on/off or weather requirements. They trust their crew to excersise good judgement. I always ask my colleauge if he's up for a bit of manual flight. I think everyone should be able to coop with a raw data ILS to a five hundred foot ceiling. Of course it is more workload than riding the autopilot, but not beyond manageable. The thing is, one day you might need it...

Nil further

27th Feb 2017, 10:02

No answers then ?
Perhaps you will retract ?

Been at this for a bit now , as for excellent pilots . Mmmmm
Self praise is no praise

Elephant and Castle

27th Feb 2017, 10:23

Oh dear, the "hand flying is unsafe / puts a massive strain on the Pilot monitoring" brigade is back. Ask the passengers of the Air france A330 or the Air Asia A320 or the FlyDubai 737 (to mention but three recent examples) what they think of their pilots manual handling skills. As with any skill, use it or loose it. Loosing it is not very wise if you fly aircraft for a living. As far as practicing in the sim we all know that 15 minutes once every 6 months (if that) is simply nowhere near enough to maintain the required level of proficiency.

All pilots MUST be able to hand fly their aircraft without any noticeable reduction in safety or an unacceptable increase in workload, with regular practice it really is not that hard. If they cannot the solution is certainly not to stick the autopilot on and hope their skill shortage is never needed. Does that mean doing raw data holds at Heathrow? certainly not but it does mean manual flying should be encouraged when appropriate.

Officer Kite

27th Feb 2017, 11:02

When they finish their simulator licence (MPL)

You had me until I read this, how familiar are you with training in the modern age?

An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A.

akindofmagic

27th Feb 2017, 15:15

To unnecessarily increase workload and risk of error, both for PF and PM, is quite simply poor airmanship, on a revenue flight full of passengers who have paid to have the flight operated in the safest possible manner.

Utter tosh. The benefits of regular practice in raw data flying far outweigh any minimal (perceived) increase in risk.

RAT 5

27th Feb 2017, 15:56

Go practice raw data, crosswinds, OEI, etc in the excellent FB SIM facility

How on earth can you practice/improve/maintain handling skills to cope with challenging manoeuvres in a Fixed Base sim?

KayPam

27th Feb 2017, 17:24

You had me until I read this, how familiar are you with training in the modern age?

An MPL is not a simulator license. Further to that, Ryanair do not run an MPL scheme, none of their pilots would have an MPL, it isn't recognised in the Ryanair OM A.

LOL, how else would you call this license ?
Please remind us how many simulator hours and how many real flying hours are there, in an MPL training ?

A modular fATPL will give you a minimum of 200 hours of real flight and a maximum of 50 hours of simulator.

samca

27th Feb 2017, 17:32

The reason becouse there is so many SOP's in the company is to protect against the low experience pilots or cadets mistakes. No more no less.
There is no better pilots in Ryanair than in my previous company. I would love to fly a "real" visual circuit in this company or a "raw data" app but I have to accept the rules of the company. It is not a company for "play with the aircraft" for me is my job and I just follow procedures. They pay me and tell me how they want to do things and I just follow their SOPs.
But I have to say that some pilots here think they are at the top and never have flown in other company, continent or airlines...