Norwegian B787 - FLL based

[HurryUp&Retire]

Any details regarding the US contact? All I know is that the contract gives 10 days off per month and 28 days of vacation.

[Iver]

Flight Attendant or pilot?

[HurryUp&Retire]

pilots, both seats

Contracted Captains B787 US, FLL - OSM Aviation Group (http://osmaviation.com/job/contracted-captains-b787-us-fll/)

[Jonnyknoxville]

2 years flying EASA registered planes to Europe for a European airline on an FAA licence ?? Can we do this in the US ? Yet again another sign that our profession is gone down the swanny .

[Fogrunner]

:= What a load of Bovine excrement.

[bafanguy]

FYI:

Norwegian Air Shuttle aims to go intercontinental and hire pilots in US | The National (http://www.thenational.ae/business/aviation/norwegian-air-shuttle-aims-to-go-intercontinental-and-hire-pilots-in-us)

http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8264.html

http://www.latestpilotjobs.com/jobs/view/id/8262.html

[bafanguy]

Just checking to see if I'm understanding this offer correctly as it involves US citizens.

If an applicant only has an FAA ticket, he will get a license validation allowing him to fly EU acft for two years during which time he must get a full EASA license (14 writtens plus other stuff ?) to go beyond that point:

"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."

But he's obligated to a 3 year bond the amount of which I've not seen documented...can't be cheap:

"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."

So, unless a person wants to get nailed for that 3rd year of the bond by bolting after only two years, he'll be studying for/taking those 14 writtens while flying internationally and being jet lagged...to complete the 3rd year ?

I must be missing something here. Please correct my impression.

[Callsign Kilo]

With the majors all hiring, I can't see anyone with a FAA licence and widebody experience (or Boeing experience for that matter) jumping at this. A non starter. Next.

[bafanguy]

Well, I wasn't asking who might accept this position...or refuse it. I was asking about the structure of the offer faced by those FAA license holders who DO take it.

And I can assure you "...anyone with... widebody experience (or Boeing experience for that matter) ..." is not automatically moved to the head of the hiring line at US major. Feel free to dispute that but I know otherwise.

The Norwegian offer may in fact be a non starter for US citizens when all is said and done but it's far too early to make such a pronouncement.

I'd guess it might not take long to see how it turns out.

[casablanca]

Nobody interested? How many US pilots are currently flying the 777 as captain for foreign carriers like Emirates, Korean etc.......there will be interest just not somebody from AA or Delta.
The option to start in left seat of 787 vs right seat of an MD80 has a certain appeal.....at least to an older group.

[Can737]

True if Norwegian shows the money. Who wants to pay an up front cash training bond, get a crappy pay and work ridiculous schedules? Good luck!

[Speedbrakes Up]

Please tho if you do apply, ask one important question...

What will happen if I do not have my EASA ticket after 2 years??

[Direct Bondi]

Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.

Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/43-NMB-No.-35.pdf

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Press-Release.pdf

During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:

“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.

However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:

“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”

The Railway Labor Act states:

“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”

Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/43-NMB-No.-21.pdf

So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.

[Callsign Kilo]

True if Norwegian shows the money. Who wants to pay an up front cash training bond, get a crappy pay and work ridiculous schedules? Good luck!

That's my point. At face value, left or right seat on the 787 with a FLL base looks attractive. A position with no direct employment, massive capital outlay, no recognition and some vague EASA dispensation isn't.

[casablanca]

As a non type rated FO....It doesn't seem to be appealing.
However for a type rated 777-787 Direct entry Captain it will attract quite a few I would think as they don't have to sign a bond and sure many just want to return to states.

[CaptainChipotle]

Emirates Captain here...

I can't wait to sit right seat in a 320/737/mad dog... ...its all about the work rules for me, since we have ZERO work rules at my current employer.

Norwegian sounds nice on paper, but you'll be branded a scab.

To each their own I guess.

[NEDude]

You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?

[Denti]

Well, i believe the mentioned unions, not quite sure about SWAPA and Teamsters, are very strongly involved in the Deny NAI movement. From their point of view they could of course come to the conclusion that anybody working for them is a scab. Not that i like that term at all (and that as a union rep). But from a certain point of view i can understand that.

And it could in theory lead to difficulties in joining carriers where the pilots are represented by one of those unions.

[7Q Off]

just curious, I read that for captain they require X amount of hours as widebody or narrow body in long haul ops? what they consider long haul in a narrow body? Flight of more than 6 hs in a 757/737/A320??

[randompilot]

Calling them scabs, really? Are Emirates pilots Scabs? The ME3 are massively undermining all legacy carriers worldwide, that still doesn't mean that somebody who works there is responsible for it. Dumping hard politics onto the backs of employees - great stuff (sarcasm!). Next thing we know Air Berlin guys are accused of scabing because they will assist in the Eurowings project. I call BS on it!

Short intro:
The US job market for pilots has really picked up strongly, lots of hiring going on at all stages of the industry from 91/135 to 121. Many reach their long aspired career goal of flying for one of the majors. Some guys hold MD-8X Captain at one of the big three after only 1 or 2 years.

Norwegian FLL:
Norwegian is using agency contracts to staff their planes. A (shame on those europeans) standard practice in europe that is unusual in the US. Understandably they'll get some flak for this, especially as there are so many "better" jobs to be had currently here in the states.

To call guys taking those "lesser value" jobs Scabs is absurd. A Scab is someone, as has been mentioned above, who crosses a picket line during a strike to take a position that wouldn't even be available if it weren't for the strike in the first place or someone who willfully flies routes of his striking colleagues.

Are pilots at "bottom feeder" US cargo or regional airlines Scabs? Technically, they are doing the same job a pilot at one of the majors is doing for less renumeration, thereby undercutting the industry, sort of. How come the unions who are so adamant about Norwegian have accepted 15000 USD starting salarys at part 121 regionals? How come the US airlines bitching now employ foreign based cabin that are paid less money than beeing US based?

Who here can, in times of ever increasing "human resources" and at the same time diminishing numbers of jobs overall (look at Europe!), afford the noble attitude of refusing to take up work as the terms are beneath what AA, UA, DL etc... offer. Off course there is always a bottom line, for me that would be straight out paying to fly (Lion Air Indonesia etc..). Take the EU for example. The ME3 are dumping 380s on us like there is no (uhh I mean "Hello") tomorrow. A typical european is usually limited to a handful airlines because of language barriers, whereas a pilot in the US has access to the busiest commercial aviation market in the world. Many in the eu join low cost airlines, and sometimes that first job on the shiny jet feels like a dead end after so many years. Other are laid off, their bases are closed or they just can't stand Turkey (the country!) or the ME3 anymore and come back to the first job they can find.

Yes, the terms for the Norwegian contract aren't on par to what most guys in the US are used too, but for the average non legacy europilot 10k/month is a new, sad reality.

I would like to end with a quote from the other Norwegian thread. It is one thing to comfortably look down from the "good jobs" to those "below". Instead of accusing and confronting one another, those that are in the comfort zone could show a little empathy. Here is the quote, and unfortunately the part about "nobody looking out for you" is true.

Here is a piece of advice for you from nearly 30 years of flying, and well over two decades of doing it professionally on three different continents:

The industry is a mess and there is nobody who is going to look out for you, not your union, not your company, not your colleagues. And every new airline that comes along is ALWAYS accused of "lowering the bar", or "dragging down the profession". Anyone that innovates, regardless of industry, is considered dangerous and faces opposition (look at the opposition to Uber or the issues Elon Musk is facing getting his Tesla cars to the market in a lot of countries). As time passes, the innovator or new entrant becomes the establishment and soon another new entrant is branded as "evil".

Let's look at some of the airlines in North America as an example. In the early 1980s a new ultra-low cost airline called PeoplExpress was founded. Pilots were poorly paid, lacked union protection, and were forced to do jobs like taking tickets, helping to load bags, and clean the cabin. They were considered dangerous and their pilots were often accused by their peers as lower the bar of the profession. Fast forward 30 years and where are all those guys who were working for PeoplExpress? They are all senior captains at United (Continental bought PeoplExpress and now Continental has merged with United). So the guys who were at one point lowering the bar are now the senior ALPA members at one of the largest legacy airlines in the world.

Southwest was also considered dangerous at one point, so much so that the establishment went to court to fight them.

Virgin America was considered the worst airline in North America by the established airlines and the unions. The pilots were treated poorly and looked down upon for..."lowering the bar" (see a common theme here?). Now VX is a proud ALPA member and being merged with another legacy airline.

Southwest airlines required their prospective pilots to get a 737 type rating for nearly 40 years, only recently dropping the requirement. While SWA was never officially tied to the type rating mills, they certainly had a close relationship with one or two, and thousands of pilot shelled out thousands of dollars to get their 737 ratings hoping for a shot with SWA.

So my point is that while the idea of paying for a type rating, or providing a bank guarantee, or paying for training, or paying for line experience, may not be palatable for most of us, the reality is that this is overwhelmingly what the industry is. For every guy that gets hired by a big legacy airline, has everything paid for, and has a nice trouble free 30 year career before riding off into the sunset on his nice pension, there are 20 or 30 other guys who have to bounce around between multiple airlines, working multiple contracts and various parts of the world, or who end up flying for second rate carriers. If you are certain that you are going to land your dream job at Lufthansa, Delta or Qantas, then go ahead and roll the dice and be thankful if you land it. But refusing another job because they are "lowering the bar" will do nothing to change the industry. The only thing that will change the industry is the market.

Here is a piece of advice I got from an acquaintance of mine. At 25 years old he was hired by PeoplExpress and is now a senior 777 captain at United based in EWR. When he was hired at PeoplExpress, friends and acquaintances of his that got hired at PanAm, TWA and Eastern all accused him of lowering the bar. He has ended up having a nice and relatively steady career, while most of them have ended up bouncing around with several different airlines. His advice to me was to always take the best available offer that you have, even if it may not be the best job out there. Because you have no way of knowing what will happen over the next 10, 20 or 30 years. What may be a crap job today can end up being the best job in 20 years, and the best job today may not exist in 20 years.

[randompilot]

Captains: minimum of 6,000 hours total time with 2,500 PIC hours on any glass cockpit Jet aircraft. 1,000 PIC hours on a wide body aircraft.

[7Q Off]

Qualifications
Captain
FAA ATP certificate or EASA ATPL
FAA or EASA Medical Class 1 (EASA Medical Class 1 required before commencing flight duty)
6,000 hours total time
2,500 PIC hours on any EFIS jet aircraft
1,000 hours on a wide body or narrow body aircraft in long haul operation

https://www.webcruiter.no/WcMain/AdvertViewPublic.aspx?oppdragsnr=3220570416&culture_id=EN&company_id=201503&link_source_id=0

[Pontius]

Has anybody established what the US contract is paying? The UK deal is £7470 per month plus £830 per diem. These are gross figures (and by that I mean before tax but I would agree about an alternative interpretation of 'gross'). It would be very interesting to see what they're looking to pay in the US, especially with the lower cost of living there.

[ExDubai]

FO 5.500 USD
Relief Captain 7.500 USD
Captain 10.000 USD
Per diem 1000 USD

[Pontius]

Thanks ED,

Interesting figures. Comparing the oranges you've got £8300/mth versus $11000/mth. At the moment the £ is very weak against the $ and the FLL guys would be on a shade under £9000. With the huge % the UK tax man takes, compared to the US + the lower cost of US living it makes the FLL a lot more attractive than LGW (plus it's a lot more sunny and the fishing is better). Maybe some tea needs to be thrown into the River Thames :)

You can bet your bottom $ that the next cry will refer to the historical exchange rates....when the contracts will probably even out with the tax and cost of living taken into account i.e. how many beers can I buy in Tesco v Pubics (or however it's spelt) :ok:

[ExDubai]

The challenge for the FLL based US Pilots will be to convert to EASA within 24 Months. 14 exams on a 100% roster, 10 days of and a family/social life doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

What happens with the training bond if you miss the 2 years deadline?

[Parkbremse]

@Randompilot

Very true, couldn't have said it any better!! :ok:

[172_driver]

With the huge % the UK tax man takes, compared to the US + the lower cost of US living it makes the FLL a lot more attractive than LGW (plus it's a lot more sunny and the fishing is better). Maybe some tea needs to be thrown into the River Thames

What if you've got kids and need child care? Get sick and need to see the doctor? Loose your medical? What money will you live off after retirement?

Child care ain't cheap in either country, but I think the US takes the price $$. There is no such thing as the NHS in Ft. Lauderdale and expect to pay $130 for a 5 min visit to the doctor and another $70 for antibiotics. LoL is it included in either deal? No 401k pension plan either is there?

My point is; in this net salary hysteria the low cost airlines are often doing pretty well, but the package as a whole isn't always that good.

[Daygo]

Im a UK citizen living in the US currently flying for a regional; I hold both an EASA ATPL and an FAA ATP and I have to say I am intrigued as to what the Norwegian contract will look like. I thought that they might have taken advantage of offering the low annual vacation time that seems to be standard when you first start flying for a company over here. I've applied and completed the online tests and now they have asked to see a copy of my green card, so who knows. I'd be keen to see what benefits package they offer.

[ExDubai]

Don't expect to many... ;)

[BritishGuy]

It's 'Publix', though 'Pubics' as you referred to is very much appropriate:}

[Boeing operator]

I believe the FLL guys that doesn't have an EASA (some of them will already have) will be taken off the roster a few days every month and get teacher based lessons on the 14 ATPL subjects.

How is 28 days annual leave companred to the majors in the US? Do they have a lot more?

[Kirks gusset]

How about the " Right to live and work in USA" ? not so easy!

[Direct Bondi]

I am intrigued as to what the Norwegian contract will look like. I thought that they might have taken advantage of offering the low annual vacation time that seems to be standard when you first start flying for a company over here.Before resigning from your current position and relocating to Del Boca Vista, FLL, carefully read the agency contract to discover the “taken advantage” stipulations and clauses as an outsourced employee. Additionally, when securing your pay-to-fly bank loan (non 787 rated pilots must pay before joining Norwegian), you should check with your bank if temporary and tenuous employment precludes any mortgage loan.

A post on another thread proficiently summarizes the current and unsavory working environment at Norwegian:

http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/502355-norwegian-b737-pilot-selection-updated-40.html#post9542626

The disturbing management culture is not exclusive to shorthaul. Kjos and his henchmen continue to freely undermine labor rights and labor principles via direct employment circumvention. Alarmingly, this abhorrent labor model is now effectively state sponsored. The Norway Transport Minister, Solvik-Olsen, was in Washington last week to promote the Kjos “methods” in Norwegian’s US permit application (the longest waiting period ever):

http://e24.no/naeringsliv/norwegian-air-shuttle/solvik-olsen-tok-opp-norwegian-soeknad-i-washington/23822161

Meanwhile, groups representing Norwegian's agency pilots continue their delusion of management “commitment” to consultation and cooperation. Given the ongoing reports of unsettled labor relations and conditions, I am curious as to any tangible effectiveness of the purported “Trans National Agreement in response to the challenges created by the complex business model that is being developed by Norwegian” - as stated by the Norwegian Pilot Group on its website:

http://norwegianpilotgroup.org/

It’s difficult to have empathy for a pilot group that boasts “an alliance uniting ALL Norwegian pilots” but accepts a continued undermining of labor rights and labor principles without a significant and collective response.

Complex employment circumvention schemes in aviation, as used by Norwegian Group Airlines, are best summarized in an EU Commission funded report:

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/report_atypical_employment_in_aviation_15_0212_f.pdf

“Civil aviation legislation does not take into account the prevalence of different forms of atypical employment and outsourcing in the rapidly changing civil aviation industry. Moreover, social legislation is not able to tackle the new phenomena, leaving room for elaborate subcontracting chains and elaborate social as well as fiscal engineering. As a result, the competition nowadays is a true race to the bottom, which affects fair competition and worker’s rights as well as raises important issues in the field of safety and liability.

It need be noted that lacking general transparency and oversight in the aviation sector by labor inspection authorities render it highly difficult to distinguish between the legal reality and the defacto conditions crew members are subjected to”

Couldn’t have said it any better……

[GoForIt]

I'm curious about schedules. Read this posted by F/A's on glassdoor.com


"Transatlantic flights on 787"

StarStarStarStarStar
Current Employee - Cabin Crew in Fort Lauderdale, FL
Recommends
Positive Outlook
No opinion of CEO
I have been working at Norwegian Air Shuttle full-time (More than a year)

Pros
Great coworkers from all over the world. New large airplanes providing a good work environment. Great destinations in both Europe and U.S.

Cons
Long trips with little time at home in between, hard to balance family and work life. Schedules include positioning after working a transatlantic flight, making duty hours very long. Travel benefits are not great.

Advice to Management
Listen to cabin crew feedback.

Dec 14, 2015 Helpful (2)
Norwegian Air Shuttle Logo
"Cabin Crew"

StarStarStarStarStar
Former Employee - Cabin Crew in Fort Lauderdale, FL
Doesn't Recommend
Positive Outlook

Pros
Great people to work with. The planes were new and nice to be on. Destinations were exciting and new ones were added frequently. As a start-up company, climbing the ladder was an accessible goal anyone could reach for if they wanted. There was NOTHING wrong with being based in FLL.

Cons
Pay was not the best, but is it really ever? Schedules were often 21 days or longer away from home. No union and no easy way of changing/swapping shifts. Hotels left something to be desired and the turn-around time was often not enough to recuperate from a long haul journey across the Atlantic or North American continent.

Advice to Management
Make a better work/life balance.

Does anyone have any info on pilot schedules?

[HurryUp&Retire]

Can someone pls post or pm their monthly schedule

[ExDubai]

Interesting, I wonder why Norwegian do not want to commit on that point. Maybe because OSM offers Asian contracts....
US pilot union would drop opposition to Dublin-based Norwegian Air unit if contract pledge made - Independent.ie (http://m.independent.ie/business/irish/us-pilot-union-would-drop-opposition-to-dublinbased-norwegian-air-unit-if-contract-pledge-made-35160216.html)

“They just need to tell that to the DOT in a filing so that they’re committed to it,” said Mr Canoll, who claimed that ALPA has made attempts to encourage NAI to make that commitment, but that NAI has “refused”.

[ScottyDawg]

Well - For you guys who are not up to date with what's going on the European side ... OSM stands for "Orient Ship Management"
So if you sign up ... you can get the image.
The boss of OSM is a Scandinavian ... who was (allegedly) nicked by the Scandi authorities for being a naughty boy.
If you Google and check out the above and the principle personage.. It might have a bearing on your options and decisions

[4runner]

Why is the pay so low?🤔

[nosmo king]

Because unbelievably pilots will accept it, so why should they pay more?

[ExDubai]

@4runner Why so greedy?

[NEDude]

This was brought up in another forum -

Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.

[Direct Bondi]

Dagens Naeringsliv or DN, Norway’s leading business newspaper, article:

“Kjos aircraft and Spinning Mill Ltd.” – “The boss and spin doctor”

http://www.dn.no/meninger/2016/07/08/2122/Uten-filter/kjos-flymaskin-og-spinneri-ltd

Those seeking an indirect and precarious, but “more prestigious” position with Norwegian, should accept the OSM invitation to submit questions, as stated in their advertisement:-

http://osmaviation.com/job/contracted-captains-b787-us-fll/

“OSM will answer all your queries relating to the contract, employment and training cost bond”

[email protected] - Please provide full details:

A sample working pattern/roster expected with Norwegian.
Roster bidding/request options.
Health Insurance plan for employee and family members.
Retirement plan.
Employee and family travel benefits.
Incremental pay scales.
Seniority list promotion opportunities with Norwegian.
The training cost payable before beginning the assignment, specifically;
(i) Refund should an EASA license not be obtained within the stated period.
(ii) Refund should Norwegian terminate my Service Provider Agreement with OSM for any reason.
(iii) The interest earned.
The affect on my employment with OSM and my options for any alternative OSM airline assignment or notice period payment, should Norwegian terminate my Service Provider Agreement before the 3-year term.
A sample employment contract for review.
You can also keep shtum, apply and join, hand over the “training cost” pay-to-fly cash, roll over and be unpleasantly surprised by copious smiling rock ape hypocrisy.

[sbg007]

This was brought up in another forum -

Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.

Not sure if it is true. These guys can take home up to 10k net per month with 80hrs of block flying.

[dignified]

Great wisdom for a 'RandomPilot', go for it regardless, and just another piece of advise, this one I quote from a brilliant literary man of France:

"Strike out a few sages, and the crowd of human beings is nothing but a horrible assemblage of unfortunate criminals, and the globe contain nothing but corpses....I wish I had never been born"-Voltaire!:E

Whether the Emirates scab is right or pretending a clean background from the U.A.E, I do not buy it, I simply do not care, Voltaire's expression above applies very much to the aviators of this world, there is no dignifying respect for morals or principles, is all about vanity.:yuk:

[iaveight]

I have been watching Norwegian push through Europe and now into the USA. I doubt there are many in my situation that have just moved to Florida from Europe with an EASA ATP and 121 experience on it. While it is below industry standards for the USA there are some attractive qualities in it for me.

Based in Florida, already have a full EASA and FAA ATP, flights to Europe where I lived for the last twelve years. I too was told by an American FO that if someone takes this job they would never work for an American carrier in the future. This has put a damper on it for me, but in the end its not scab labour as no one is crossing picket lines while others protest better pay at their company.

To each their own but we all have different circumstances and reasons certain contracts look favorable. My choices at the moment are this, take a regional job flying an EMB of some sort for a regional, try for a mainline with my existing time which is over 6000 hours and over 2000 on a 737 or look at NAS .

I won't have to worry about study in two years and can stay in touch with Europe where I have lived and flown for many years.

Unless someone here has some good leads in the USA... Guess it all depends how long it takes for me to find employment here. Yes I came here legally :D

[bafanguy]

"Unless someone here has some good leads in the USA... Guess it all depends how long it takes for me to find employment here. Yes I came here legally"

iaveight,

Have you applied to all the US legacies or LCCs ? You sound competitive for both those levels of airline. Do you have a 4-year degree ?

[iaveight]

No degree unless you count EASA License and all the exams a degree. I do however have a 2 year college diploma in Aviation Management. In the 90s degrees were not offered and I am from Canada originally ..... Only just started to push forward with resumes and applications. Thanks for the response

[shedsd330]

If you don't have a degree and are not pursuing one, your odds of a US Legacy position are paltry. Spirit or other LCC are viable options. Instead of asking for leads, why not get going on applying? And for the record, with the retention bonuses offered, first year regional pay is almost competive with OSM's 787 FO offer. Repulsive to say the least.

Unfortunately OSM prob thinks you are a perfect candidate for this horrific contract. And yes those taking these positions will be looked down upon as scum may not scab, but scum. Sorry to say but in US we have zero history of contracting out brand new WB seats for paltry pay and training bonds.

[Direct Bondi]

I too was told by an American FO that if someone takes this job they would never work for an American carrier in the future
You are correct that you would not be considered a scab. The perception might be that you support the inequities of Norwegian's novel and complex labor model. My perception is you are putting food on the table.

Pilots in the US are particularly sensitive to any group that threatens their job security and quality of life - The American Dream. This probably has its roots in the United Airlines 1985 strike. During the strike 530 pilots were hired with a directive from the CEO to cross the picket line (scab). The names of the 530 who scabbed were placed in a book and distributed to all UA pilots. The book is updated even today to include the names of relatives who later joined UA.

I am not aware that a book of US based pilots flying for Norwegian will be produced. I am aware that Norwegian's pilots will not be permitted to take advantage of the US airline jump-seat scheme to commute to/from work. The Known Crew Member jump-seat program requires participants to be employed by an airline, not a staffing agency.

I suggest you explore all options to secure direct airline employment, as opposed to “airline unemployment” via employment with a staffing agency precariously renting pilots to airlines. Your aviation career dream may become a service industry nightmare. Good luck.

[iaveight]

Shed what makes you think I am not applying? I have been in the industry long enough not to use others to get myself a job, but networking always helps.

Paltry without a degree? How would flow through work then with companies like Envoy who say flow though when your number is called without interview

[iaveight]

I agree most should be concerned and want contracts and employment to stay lucrative, I guess everyone in here must be a republican than and want the border wall and strong immigration policies....

Bondi - regarding putting food on table, I think we all are hence why we work for a living.

If you are asking whether I need the cash ASAP then NO, I am on full wack till the end of March, my company was understanding of my move. If that were the case I wouldn't have resigned my 737 position in the UK and moved to the States. We are not hurting for money and my wife does very well. I am merely feeling the water out over here trying to get opinions as I have been in the UK for 12 years. Prior to that I am originally from Canada.

[shedsd330]

Using a flow to get to a legacy is a different matter. Yes you could get to American without a degree in that case. Although in the time it will take you to flow up will be WAY longer then the time it takes to get some sort of online degree and hired at US Legacy.

You are very competive for US legacies now, but I'm sorry to say no 4 year is a huge hole. My friend worked in hiring at a US Legacy. He told me that those hired without 4 year were very limited and had extremely important connections. That said applying now does not hurt obviously. Have a look at Allegiant, JetBlue, and Spirit. I bet you get a call from one of them. All far better positions then the rubbish Norweign is throwing out.

[g-code]

I'd like to echo the above. A buddy of mine also had a 2 year diploma and did the coursework for his 4 year degree online through ERAU. He had a call from a major within 45 days.

[Direct Bondi]

iaveight,

My comment regarding “putting food on the table” was empathy directed at someone I thought, wrongly, may have no other choice than to accept the rubbish OSM offer and Norwegian’s pilot rental, job security fear culture. However, given your condescending reply and statement;

Bondi - regarding putting food on table, I think we all are hence why we work for a living.
If you are asking whether I need the cash ASAP then NO, I am on full wack till the end of March, my company was understanding of my move. If that were the case I wouldn't have resigned my 737 position in the UK and moved to the States. We are not hurting for money and my wife does very well
Clearly, you are not deserving of any empathy. You may even be an opportunist looking to enhance your Norwegian 787 chances by relocating to Florida. If so, you are exactly the type Norwegian is looking for. The earlier character assessment by shedsd330 of those applying may also be applicable.

My “good luck” wishes are withdrawn. Furthermore, it is my hope that unionized US pilots do indeed produce a Norwegian booklet of names for future reference, should you or any others apply to a US airline in the future. Hopefully, your name will be at the top.

[iaveight]

I am merely stating fact nothing more or less, if it was empathy it didn't sound like it. Obviously I would query NAS as I have an EASA ATPL and again wanted peoples input. Not looking for empathy or sympathy just fact and what is going on in the USA.

Not quite sure why a degree is so important though. Go to Uni online take a bird course and that prepares me for life in a legacy carrier. If its to show commitment then I have completed EASA ATPL which is near enough a degree course and on top of that two years college in Canada for aviation management.

Wont argue with the system here just don't understand the degree part.

Thanks for the input Bondi g code and shed sd.

I have a couple of interviews coming up one with a flow through that allows me to commute from my home. Money isn't what I was making in the UK but then again I am not taxed 43 percent on any of my wage and I moved here for a personal reason. Its nice to see many jobs floating around as it was slim pickings years ago. Europe is very busy still with many jobs there but tough to get work permit like it is in the States.

[g-code]

The degree is just "one of those things." It's possible to get to a major through a flow program without one, but when 99% of your competition has one...well you get the point.

Some carriers will hire without one, but American, United, Delta, and Southwest generally won't. With FAA certs and a 2 year degree, it probably wouldn't take more than 12 months to complete as you will receive quite a few transfer credits.

There are other carriers like Atlas and Spirit who pay pretty well who don't require one. Not sure about JetBlue.

I'm not as militant with Bondi, because guys who go work at Norwegian aren't scabs, but I don't look at Norwegian favorably at all either.

Welcome to the States and good luck!

[Direct Bondi]

I would query NAS as I have an EASA ATPL and again wanted peoples input.Presently, you are unprepared to attend an interview. NAS has no association whatsoever with pilot employment contracts with staffing agency OSM for onward, service provider, pilot rental to a Norwegian airline – “airline unemployment”.

I suggest you practice your response to the inevitable question from any US airline interview board, probably including a line captain, as to why, with an EASA license and living in Florida, you have not applied to OSM for Norwegian. Your response may determine your aviation career future.

[iaveight]

If I had that question in an interview, to be honest no preparation required, tell the truth. I have 3 ATPL which affords me a few companies to look at. Regarding OSM , in Europe and the Far East many use these companies for work, PARC is a huge one and a friend of mine is employed with a Japanese carrier through Parc . Difference is , awesome contract and completion bonuses. Unfortunately the commuting contract I wanted wasn't interested , they like young young guys with type ratings . Commuting would have been my first pick.

Its like you Bondi moving to Europe, many carriers , many options, many opinions. At the end of the day each of us has to do what is best for ourselves

[iaveight]

Thanks G Code, feel much more at home back in North America than in Europe. All the best !!!!

[7Q Off]

The problem is not NAS. Are unions and EU law that allows that type of employment.

[iaveight]

Norwegian’s FLL based pilots who will commute cannot participate in any US airline jumpseat program. Approvals require the employer to be an airline, not a third-party agency such as Orient Ship Management. Ongoing incompetence in managing crew resources may preclude the purchase of FLL commuting tickets on anything other than very short notice with associated high cost. Additionally, European pilot unions have not yet considered their response to the proposal allowing FAA licensed pilots to operate European registered and regulated aircraft for the stated period.

Eventually, the situation may improve. By recruiting US based pilots Kjos has invited a very large elephant into the room in the form of the 1926 Railway Labor Act, RLA. The invitation is surprising given the recent victory by US based NAI flight attendants in obtaining union recognition, representation and collective agreement rights directly with their “real employer”, Norwegian:

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/43-NMB-No.-35.pdf

http://cabinassociation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Press-Release.pdf

During the Norwegian Cabin Crew Association application to the National Mediation Board for union recognition, Norwegian and their collaborator in employment circumvention fought tooth and nail against the reality that Norwegian acts as the real employer:

“Norwegian contends that OSM is the sole employer of the cabin crew and that neither NAR nor NAS exercises control over OSM. In addition, Norwegian contends that they lack the continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner in which the Cabin Crew members render their services”.

However, the Agreement for Provision of Services of Aircraft Crew between OSM and Norwegian states:

“OSM, in exchange for compensation, provides employees to perform work as part of the customers business under the customers control and management”

The Railway Labor Act states:

“The jurisdiction of the RLA extends to every common carrier by air engaged in interstate or foreign commerce and, every air pilot or other person who performs any work as an employee or subordinate official of such carrier or carriers, subject to its or their continuing authority to supervise and direct the manner of rendition of his services”

Consequently, both Norwegian and OSM failed, abysmally, in their attempt to obstruct cabin crew being allowed to ballot for union representation as “employees” of Norwegian. The full report may be read at link:

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/43-NMB-No.-21.pdf

So, if you live in the FLL area and are prepared to forego labor rights and labor principles with your “real employer” and pay 30K for the privilege, until such time as your group follows the lead of the US based cabin crew to organize union representation, the smiling rock ape regime may be for you.

Just so you all know - you don't pay for the bond , the bond is only paid - or portion left on it if you leave within 3 years . Bonds are standard in Europe with most airlines but again as long as you stay for the three years there is nothing to pay

[iaveight]

Thanks for your input - not defending , just giving fact about how things work in Europe and Far East . A guy with 250 hours can start at a carrier in the U.K. On a 737 at 70 000 sterling - 35 days off immediately and have a bond . That bond is not paid unless you leave within 3 years . Now how much does American pay first year for a new hire ? It's all relative both with good points and bad points . Personally I like the US model much better than the European . Over there you can have second officers , first officers , senior first officers . You are incorrect though , many airlines in the Far East use recruiting agencies alone .

[FlyboyUK]

250hour f/o starting on £70k? You must be joking

[iaveight]

Joking ? No when I was first employed by a certain carrier there in 2004 it's what I started at including salary flight pay pension brought it up over that amount.

I have a company contacting me currently starting salary is 69.8

[FlyboyUK]

That sort of pay is certainly far from the norm for that level of experience now in the UK

[iaveight]

As I said I have a current contract sitting in my hands from an agency for a 737 job . I am assuming it's Royal Mail and it's starting at just over 70 k . So I have to disagree.

Sigma aviation 70k to start southern U.K. Base !

[JaxofMarlow]

But you say above you started in 2004 so hardly a 250hour newbee. It is just :mad: that such salaries are available to low hours pilots in the UK or Europe.

[Nonni777]

It's funny how people always talk about this and that airline dragging down the standards. It's the people who accept those jobs that are dragging down the standards. These companies would not fly very much if people would refuse to take those jobs.

[Zaphod Beblebrox]

iaveight and Direct Bondi are correct in their analysis of the AFA/CWA drive to gain recognition of the NMB, National Mediation Board. The Board's finding that the contracting company was sufficiently close and exercised sufficient control over employee's so as to be indistinguishable from the carrier itself. NMB recognition triggers:

45 U.S. Code § 152 - General duties
First. Duty of carriers and employees to settle disputes
It shall be the duty of all carriers, their officers, agents, and employees to exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, rules, and working conditions, and to settle all disputes, whether arising out of the application of such agreements or otherwise, in order to avoid any interruption to commerce or to the operation of any carrier growing out of any dispute between the carrier and the employees thereof.

This is a huge win for AFA. While it does not guarantee a contract it places Norwegian under the RLA, which at least makes them play by some rules.

[and]

Gentlemen please any news regarding interview for RCA?

What to expect?

Thanks for help

[Direct Bondi]

Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?

“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:

https://www.aviationanalytics.com/2018/01/09/norwegian-overstretched/

I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).

[Luggage]

Despite great expectations, no 787's are based in FLL. Could it be because the airline is overstretched?

“On 8 December the Financial Times reported investor concerns over profitability and debt at Norwegian Air Shuttle” – Link:

https://www.aviationanalytics.com/2018/01/09/norwegian-overstretched/

I’m no financial wizard and I don’t have a Spanish ATPL, but all those red and negative numbers are not good (Kool-Aid is no substitute for reality).

This was my understanding as well, 787 were suppossed to be based out of FLL along with both FA and pilots. The base was meant to grow substantially.

Something does not seem right here. Pilots are training to be based there but this certainly has the feeling of a position with not a lot of security for FLL based pilots.

I could be wrong and have misread the situation but it does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling one should get with a position like this.

[Meester proach]

No it’s not overstretched.
I’m not sure how 787 could be based at FLL as they are ever going to be N reg.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Most people don't make job decisions based on assumptions, and I don't see any source that there was ever meant to be an aircraft based in FLL, maybe someone can prove me wrong?

Again I ask WHY an aircraft base would increase or decrease job security for those crew based there?

[4runner]

You will not be branded a "scab" in the U.S. The term "scab" in the States applies to to workers who cross union picket lines to work jobs that a union is striking against. It does not apply to people who are working for companies that are not experiencing union action (unless the company is providing workers to cover for another company's struck work such as when FalconAir was brought in to provide lift for Spirit when the Spirit pilots were on strike). It also does not apply to pilots who are working for less money that their counterparts. If the term "scab" applied to pilots who worked for less money and benefits than their counterparts, then ALPA and APA are guilty of creating "scabs" when they agreed to the B-scale wages of the 1980s. If someone refers to Norwegian pilots as "scabs" in the U.S. they are ignorant fools and not worth the time to worry about. Besides, beyond denying use of the jumpseat, which Norwegian pilots would not have access to, there is nothing an ALPA, APA, SWAPA or Teamsters pilot could do, so why would you care if one of them called you a "scab" out of ignorance?

You will not be branded a scab. You’ll be the next lowest and people, including hiring boards will look at you like you’re scum of the earth. You’ll also be blacklisted, blocked on the radio and shunned by your fellow aviators for flying for a union, and contract busting operator. You’ll also have the honor of flying a Boeing for less than a CRJ pilot.

[4runner]

This was brought up in another forum -

Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying. The chance to do some "more prestigious" flying on brand new 787s for a bit more pay could be very tempting to those guys, especially if they already live in south Florida.

I think these operators are all bankrupt. Also, Ommi and Kalitta are hiring. Check their pay rates. Captains top out at almost $300 an hour and Union protection.

[bafanguy]

This was brought up in another forum -

Norwegian could be looking in to syphoning pilots from the many Miami area secondary cargo airlines such as Centurion, Amerijet, SkyLease, or Florida West. These airlines pay less than Norwegian for wide body cargo flying

How many of those pilots are willing to tackle the license conversion that's required coupled with a training bond ? It appears to be a heck of an effort to undertake while flying full time:

Training cost bond

For pilots not current on B737 it will be a Non-Compete clause in the contract for the first three years. If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered Aircraft.
https://osmaviation.com/job/contracted-captains-b787-us-fll/


This from another job post:


"If you hold an FAA flight crew license, Norwegian will support conversion training to obtain an EASA license during a time of up to 2 years. During this period, you will operate under a waiver on European registered aircraft."

"For pilots not current on B787 or B777 there will be a training cost bond, being paid back or decreasing by 1/3 each year over three years..."

[Meester proach]

You will not be branded a scab. You’ll be the next lowest and people, including hiring boards will look at you like you’re scum of the earth. You’ll also be blacklisted, blocked on the radio and shunned by your fellow aviators for flying for a union, and contract busting operator. You’ll also have the honor of flying a Boeing for less than a CRJ pilot.



What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ?

And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries.

[4runner]

What a load of twaddle. “ blocked on the radio “. Are you a professional pilot or a school yard bully ?

And , regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries.

I speak the truth and I don’t care what a non-US pilot think. Look up the number of ads for crj pilots and the bonuses. Also, crj captain pay is ok these days. I’m right and you don’t know of what you speak of.

[Direct Bondi]

And, regional pilots get paid less in the US than a supermarket trolley collector here in the UK, so please explain who pays these massive CRJ salaries.

The sad irony is that in the UK, a supermarket trolley collector has more employment rights than Norwegian’s 787 pilots have with the airline. Via convoluted direct employment circumvention, Norwegian’s pilots on all fleets, have no employment relationship with the airline – their real employer.

Rishworth states on its website they are “the provider” for Norwegian’s 787 pilots and that “Pilots will be employed by Global Crew”.

Global Crew is listed by UK Companies House as an “employment placement agency” with registered offices in rural England – Link:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09543804

Interested parties and potential applicants should examine the company Filing History, in particular the accounts filed on 19 December, 2017, page 11, item 7:

“The company does not have a bank account, therefore, all income and expenditure is collected or incurred by other group companies”.

Convolution and circumvention of undefined proportions surrounds this particular atypical labour model.

There is no reference to any Norwegian 787 FLL or other US base on the Rishworth website.

Despite the facts, it is unlikely Norwegian’s sycophants will offer anything other than their usual playground personal attack.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

There is no reference to any Norwegian 787 FLL or other US base on the Rishworth website.

Why would there be any reference on the Rishworth website? They have nothing to do with FLL.

[Luggage]

I speak the truth and I don’t care what a non-US pilot think. Look up the number of ads for crj pilots and the bonuses. Also, crj captain pay is ok these days. I’m right and you don’t know of what you speak of.

I work in the US as well and you are talking absolute hogwash. Stop trolling you idiot!!

[510orbust]

Having worked both in the UK and now the USA at a 121 carrier I can say this. Some Americans distain for Norwegian is utter BS. Most in the USA will try and compare legacy American / United / Delta with Norwegian and tell you NAS will bring down the US pilot contracts. They are not comparing apples to apples.

Why are they not comparing Frontier's pay or what Spirit pilots were making which was peanuts. Why don't they ever talk about holidays which are no where near European standards. Some airlines in the USA do have bonds, they don't like to mention those either.

Regional pilots are treated like cattle, even the American wholly owned pilots who work for the dangle of " flow " to mainline taking up to 9 years.

Next they will say " but we are talking equipment they fly " Ok then lets look at Atlas cargo flying 747 and 767s .

The fact of the matter is this, supply and demand. Wages are increasing in the USA not because management values pilots but because they can't get applicants through the door unless they bring up T/C .

The one thing NAS doesn't have is pilot commuting which is HUGE in the USA. I can commute home on nearly any airline for free and get jump seat if the cabin is full. This is a huge bonus for being able to live anywhere in the country.

Overall the Norwegian contract needs work but so do many US contracts. Making NAS out to be scabs is wrong but thats how the airline is looked at here and if you want to progress your career in the USA don't work at NAS unless that will be the last airline you want to work for here.

[510orbust]

If you don't have a degree and are not pursuing one, your odds of a US Legacy position are paltry. Spirit or other LCC are viable options. Instead of asking for leads, why not get going on applying? And for the record, with the retention bonuses offered, first year regional pay is almost competive with OSM's 787 FO offer. Repulsive to say the least.

Unfortunately OSM prob thinks you are a perfect candidate for this horrific contract. And yes those taking these positions will be looked down upon as scum may not scab, but scum. Sorry to say but in US we have zero history of contracting out brand new WB seats for paltry pay and training bonds.

Piedmont airlines 121 wholly owned - American mainline flow in 4-5 years no interview. Same with PSA and Envoy ( 9 year flow )

soooo please don't say 'paltry' into mainline. Getting into an American wholly owned is as simple as having 2000 hours on a 172 ....

A guy with 737 time will be scooped up by Eagle and have 4 years to flow to American, all the while getting an American employee number from day 1 at Eagle , getting free passes, buddy passes, and CASS as well as pensionable time. You have to be willing to work at a commuter for 4 years learning American SOP's as they are aligned.

This is the type of misinformation I detest from people. Usually from older bitter types who never made it out of a Cessna caravan or who graduated from EMB Riddle and believe they are the dogs bollocks which they are not.

Next you will be told AA is not a legacy carrier that only applies to Delta and United. "sigh"

[Daddy Fantastic]

Any updates to the FLL contract for NAS 787 pilots?

[Daddy Fantastic]

Desperately short, emails sent to existing pilots at the base asking them to recommend friends. This kind of gig is only attractive to guys with 2 passports or long term desires to be in Europe.

What makes you say that regarding the passports and Europe....just curious and interested t know.

[SextanteUK]

I'm curious too haha. I have a Spanish passport and in a couple of months I should get my American passport. Love the country but taking care of parents in Europe is my priority obviously. So why that attractive?

[sonoma]

Hi. Noted the comment that they are desperately short of pilots. Last year I saw the contract the US pilots had to sign. Unless it has changed since then, the recruitment company virtually owns your career while there and for three years after you leave, even into retirement.
After the initial three years (of no pay increases), you were on a rolling one year contract, which could be terminated at will by them. If you left, you could not work for any aviation entity, which they dealt with, for the subsequent three years. It was so broad a statement, that you could not legally work in aviation for that period of time. It was a one sided contract, which didn't recognize the skills and experience brought to the company by the pilots, and in particular, those with wide body, international experience.
There was no medical coverage for family members, and no retirement provision. I know several people who are well qualified, and who wanted to go there until that contract got passed around.
If you want to work at another airline in the US, you will need to buy yourself out of this contract. Do your research on the contract, as it is quite common in the US for companies to take legal action in these cases.
Should you wish to return to Europe, you can bid to do so after the three years has expired. However, the openings will be based on your seniority. As it stands now, LGW seems to be the most junior base, and as many FO's and Relief Captains have been hired in the interim, and will upgrade, openings may take a while.
This information is from late last year.

[FlyTCI]

Guys do the research, it's supposed to be obvious. Most American pilots and hirers view anyone who goes to Norwegian as "scabs" (it's BS and wrong, I know). Most American pilots do not want to risk their careers so they stay well clear, unless they know their future is not in the US.
Well, it could also have something to do with the poor cotract on offer compared to what is now being offered at other carriers, including LCCs, in the US. What NAS offers a 787 captain is nothing short of an insult. The same applies to the amount of days you are expected to be on duty.