26yr old Captain - 19yr old Co-Pilot

[Obba]

Kate McWilliams is Easyjet's youngest Captain, and maybe in the world.


Meet the 26-year-old airline captain and her 19-year-old co-pilot - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/26/business/woman-26-easyjet-youngest-pilot-captain/index.html)

[800driver]

Nope, afraid not. There's younger Captains in Ryanair. Regardless of age or gender, well done anyway on achieving a command.

[sky jet]

Not even close. I have know many pilots (male and female) in the US who had to wait until the legal age of 23 to upgrade to captain and at least one who took a type ride on their 23rd birthday.

[bloom]

People's Express Had a 23-year-old 747 Captain

[Airbubba]

People's Express Had a 23-year-old 747 Captain

Can you offer a name or any other reference for this claim?

More discussion of the topic on PPRuNe and over on a sister forum:

http://www.pprune.org/questions/256646-youngest-747-captain.html

Youngest Captain for B757, B767, B777 and B747 - Airline Pilot Central Forums (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/5983-youngest-captain-b757-b767-b777-b747.html)

[Intruder]

Atlas had a 26-year-old 747 Captain back around 2002. He's at JetBlue now.

[icelandflyer]

Just playing devils advocate as they're obviously both fully licensed and fully current on the Airbus.

However if he's barely out of school and she's got 5.5 years of experience at most (May 11 to Sept 16 . That's a whopping total of barely 6 years experience on that flight deck.

Bucket of luck and bucket of experience springs to mind...

[stilton]

It was People Express, not People's Express !

[piratepete]

Well for INFO I am the oldest Captain in the world! But seriously the age is a meaningless issue as long as the individual can pass the tests and has some maturity to conduct the job well.Well done, Peter.

[Tom Bangla]

It was People Express, not People's Express !
Stylised as PEOPLExpress.

[megan]

Recall FedEX had claim to a extremely young left seater when they introduced the DC-10. Can't recall his age all these decades after. Flew to Vietnam with a 27YO in the left seat of a 707 in 1970.

[Jonty]

I think a large proportion of us were captianing aircraft well before 26.

[ETOPS]

Can you offer a name or any other reference for this claim?



The famous Lynn Rippelmayer...

http://www.republictimes.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/FlightMag1-e1365559341804.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynn_Rippelmeyer

[ATC Watcher]

I am sure they are both very competent at what they do, and that it is all fine . It makes perfect PR ( read and enjoy the article again slowly :E) but is it really wise to pair those 2 like this and expose them to media ?
Leaving school at 17 to go into aviation college and ending up after 2 years of Aviation theory and simulator hours to become the F/0 of an A320 , is technically OK, but putting him under the supervision of a 5 years older Capt with the same cursus ?

I know in Vietnam lots of 19 years old kids flew dangerous combat missions , but that was deliberate ,as at this age one does not ask questions when told to drop napalm on targets if they were civilians around. You do not need experience to do that just technical knowledge. Needs something else to command an airliner with 100+ civilian pax in the back when things starts to go wrong .My view at least.

PS for Jonty : You are right .I was ( like many of us here I guess) "Captain" of a 4 seater at 18, but continued to study and learn. Still learning everyday since... Better pilot technically 50 years later? , maybe a bit, but not that much, but smelling a rat miles ahead and able to say No, you bet !

[Deep and fast]

All part of the plan to dumb the job down. we don't need grizzly hardened pilots to fly our equipment. Children of the magenta are fine.....
Still, the large number of CTC trained entrants didn't save them from the strike vote.

[Heathrow Harry]

You wouldn't have thought twice about that crew flying a Lancaster to Berlin in '44

Except the pilot was rather old.............

[Tom Bangla]

All part of the plan to dumb the job down. we don't need grizzly hardened pilots to fly our equipment. Children of the magenta are fine.....
Still, the large number of CTC trained entrants didn't save them from the strike vote.
Whoever could have inspired that image...?

________________


H H
"Except the pilot was rather old............." Sadly, true.

[Deep and fast]

HH. True, but then a certain amount of loss was expected as military ops usually do. This is civil peace ops so has no relevance.
Actually, good on the pilots concerned but i don't have to like the overt publicity machine running riot or a reduction of the total experience up front when they are working so hard in the summer.

[notapilot15]

I guess technically it may be a valid statement.

Gender: Female
Age: 26 years (On the day this news got published)
Plane: Boeing 737

Is there any other female Boeing 737 captain younger than her flying today?

[Jetpipe.]

One of the ''responsibilities'' of a cpt is to have a wider comfort envelope than the fo. This is the area where the fo grows his own experience expanding his own comfort zone. Automation, ATC environment, strict adherence to SOP and company policies have made it difficult to grow a comfortable skillset. But, it 's all good until you get uncomfortable.. (AirAsia 8501, Asiana 214, Emirates 521, AirAsia 223, etc)

It's come to a point where actual flying of the a/c makes you look like an alien!
Knowing this would make me uncomfortable getting onboard as a pax.

[G0ULI]

They sent crews to same age to war 70 years ago. They flew in overloaded bombers with basic navigation equipment, with people trying to stop them all the way there and back.

Air conditioned cockpit, good communications, radar, GPS, only the occasional SAM to dodge, what's the big deal?

[Doors to Automatic]

I know they have passed exams etc and I am sure they are both technically competent but I'm sorry both are too young. He is still a teenager for pete's sake (and looks just like my 15-year old step-daughter's BF!)

For me 21 should be the minimum legal age for an ATPL and 8,000 hours minimum for Captain - or at the very least a combined total of 8,000 hours experience on the flightdeck.

[Pace]

Jet pipe

Experience is something you cannot learn but experience can also lead to complacency so while a Captain without experience maybe more cautious the Captain with experience has to guard against being less cautious
A less experienced Captain may give weather a larger Berth while the more experienced may take short cuts as he can read and interpret weather ahead better and its not just whats on the radar screen

I knew one Captain who could almost smell ICE where it would form, how fast and where it would not form. He was uncannily right and acted accordingly the same with turbulence. he knew how to get out and when to expect it

The low time Captains may not have quite that level of experience but also fly with a touch more caution which probably balances out

[ATC Watcher]

GOULI : They sent crews to same age to war 70 years ago. They flew in overloaded bombers with basic navigation equipment, with people trying to stop them all the way there and back.
and the attrition rate was 1/3 , even half on some types in space of 2 years.

On the B17 ops ( well documented) life expectancy per airframe was 13 missions.Roughly half due to the Germans, the other half due to in-flight collisions ,nav errors on way back and attempts to land in bad weather. It was even worse in 1944-45 for the Germans where their fighters attrition rate soared to between 1 and 5 missions per airframe due to inexperienced pilots.

But we are comparing apples and pears . You can learn to technically fly any type of a/c in 50h of sim , the WW2 kids and any MPL today proves it.
You cannot shortcut experience.

[Herod]

I'm sure they're both good at their jobs; after all, they are licenced, and she has passed the command course. However, I'm not sure they should be crewed together.

[grizzled]

I agree Herod.

But it's spelled "crude"...

;)

[APU_inop]

From my own experience, the ones neglecting safety, not sticking to procedures, having bad CRM, having rusty flying skills, being infantile and not taking the job seriously have all been older men often with decades in the left seat. Most of them with experience surpassed by few on this forum.

I ain't buying it!

[wiggy]

the ones neglecting safety, not sticking to procedures, having bad CRM, having rusty flying skills, being infantile and not taking the job seriously have all been older men often with decades in the left seat

(My emphasis).

Really? Some of the worse behaviour, I've seen, especially when dealing with Cabin Crew, has come from some in the RHS and the perps weren't always male..but one thing I have learnt over the decades is never ever generalise, because most pilots I fly with of both genders are darned good.

As far as the point of the OP is concerned, the lady has passed the required checks and course so good luck to her...I'm not so sure about the issue of the combined experience level.

[Chronus]

Maybe they will scrap the mandatory retirement age just so as to level out the playing field with all other things such as gender, colour, race, disability, obesity, anorexia, apparel, facial hair, religious persuasion, the list is endless. So that we may all say, all things being equal I too can be a captain, with or without time served. Bad thing this seniority list thing, must mean old, grey hair and wrinkles, walking sticks and things alike. I wonder what Sully would make of it all.

[PlankBoy]

Such is the nature of this industry there's a decent chance that she'll end up one day working in BA/Virgin/EK again as First Officer for a Captain who's 5 years younger but is currently an FO in those airlines. It's great to get a quick upgrade and congrats to her but can one really do that short haul job with all those early starts for 40 years?

Not easy to think ahead that far in younger years when most of us subconsciously believe we'll never get old.

[Dan_Brown]

In the early 1990's an American cargo outfit had a B707 Captain aged 21. Well done to the young lady at EZ but 26 is rather ancient considering the above and bomber pilots in WW2 for eg.

[Twiglet1]

Good luck to the whipersnappers, that's the way it is these days.
My only worry would be despatching either down the back on a Friday night IBZ or a delay of 6 hours when it all goes pete tongue wrong :ouch:

[Spooky 2]

Sorry Dan Brown but here in the stats you need to be 23 to hold a ATP so your story is suspect?

[Dan_Brown]

Sorry Dan Brown but here in the stats you need to be 23 to hold a ATP so your story is suspect?

I stand corrected. The Captain was very young. My memory has detorioted.

[4468]

For me 21 should be the minimum legal age for an ATPL and 8,000 hours minimum for Captain - or at the very least a combined total of 8,000 hours experience
Absolutely not a problem for me.

Passengers just need to get re-accustomed to paying more for their flight than their Uber to the airport!!!

Good luck with that one!!:rolleyes:

People get what they pay for. But when they pay for their ticket, they don't care what they're getting!

[Herod]

In my experience, male pilots fell into three groups. Bloody good, mediocre, bloody dreadful. Female pilots only into the two groups at either end. I'm happy to say that the vast majority that I came across fell into the bloody good category.

[Airclues]

Doors to Automatic

For me 21 should be the minimum legal age for an ATPL

It is;

Airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) common requirements | UK Civil Aviation Authority (http://www.caa.co.uk/Commercial-industry/Pilot-licences/Regulations/ATPL/Airline-transport-pilot-licence-(ATPL)-common-requirements/)

[4468]

But of course you don't need to have an ATPL to act as a copilot in a lo-co (or anywhere)

You can hold a CPL at 18.

[Cmon-PullUP]

It is not always technical when things go wrong during a normal duty. I find that 90% of times the challenges are with human beings somewhere in the system.

Life experience and years of maturity is often the best tool to sort these problems and challenges to the best outcome, but this is not a subject when doing a Command upgrade.

Good luck to this - i am sure - lovely girl.

[runawayedge]

Well done on getting the left seat! Nothing remarkable however at 26. I know from previous that it takes a lot of experience to handle a two bar FO, who despite best efforts needs lots of minding, and is better served by senior captains. As a new captain her day out in the left seat is a lot less stressful when accompanied by more senior FOs. Great news story, but humble opinion is that low and low does not work, many airlines make sure they are not a combination! PR over sense?

[flyingmed]

I wonder why Easy didnt publish the combined total flight hours instead of age.

[Doors to Automatic]

But of course you don't need to have an ATPL to act as a copilot in a lo-co (or anywhere)

I didn't realise that an ATPL was only required for command. Just goes to show that in this industry you never stop learning, even after 20+ years experience and in your mid-forties!

[4468]

I'm in my late 50s with over 35 years in.

I had to google it!:E

[reynoldsno1]

I was put in charge of a nuclear weapon at the age of 24 ....

[Solar]

I was put in charge of a nuclear weapon at the age of 24 ....
Maybe the Labour leader has a point then!!!!!!! That's a joke by the way I'm sure you were well able.
Me I was driving a Chieftain tank at 18.

Well done to both of them.

[Pace]

To the public the picture looks like they are paired together as permanent crew when they are unlikely to fly together often or if based at different airports not at all
are we talking of life experience or flying experience? Had the girl been a bloke of 40 same hours and the FO 30 same hours would this be an issue ?

My guess a publicity stunt to encourage young people into the industry by grabbing a headline? Do we know who if anybody was in the jump seat supervising said flight if anyone ?

things are rarely as they appear

[greybeard]

I have a daughter who was a CFI and Chief pilot at 23, good one for the captain, go for it all the way.

I checked the F/Os Father out on his first Jet in one of our previous lives, if the Lad is near as good, he will go far.

:ok:

[Mooneyboy]

Flying Med total number of hours is misleading. As Pace pointed out its the quality and relevance not quantity that is important. I would much prefer to have a captain flying my family on an Airbus who had 4000hours TT pretty much all on Airbus than a captain who had 10000TT but only 500 hours on type.

Runaway edge. A SFO certainly doesn't always give you an easy day especially if you are a new captain. Some of the biggest mistakes I've seen are from SFO's.

[Spooky 2]

There are more than a few men and women flying the USAF, C17, in their mid twenties with less than 2000 TT and acting as Aircraft Commander in some very hostile flying regions which proves that with the proper training these low time pilots are capable of doing just fine. Training, standardization, and checking will go a long way....

[C172s]

Anyone who makes command deserves a well done, Especially at that age. It's not easy and it requires a lot of dedication and hard work.

However, I think This made the news as easyJet try to recover from the strike threat last week. They employ Seriously hard working conditions with little safeguards to protect their crew from fatigue. It is no laughing matter, in fact It's dangerous yet "safety"is one of their core values.

[Pace]

Profit being their biggest core value :ugh:

[homonculus]

If the two of them have met the criteria then good on them. It is rather acenine to criticise people you have no first hand experience of, apart from being rude. However, it would be different matter if the average age of command were to fall especially if it were due to recruitment need.

We have seen this in medicine: older consultants retiring, significant shortages and trainees being made up with the absolute minimum training. Patients and safety have suffered.

I do hope there are no lessons to be learned here.....

[Wingswinger]

Demographics in the airline industry, rapid expansion in the LC sector and a retirement bulge have given them both the opportunity. If you're trained and good enough, you're old enough. Good on them.

WS (Boy Harrier Pilot at 24)

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Of course it's a PR stunt (whether or not it's timed to deflect from the potential strike, I know not).

But I have flow with her and she is very good, so no surprise she got her fourth stripe. The EZY command selection process is VERY lengthy and thorough - and the course itself is not walk in the park. They're both in their respective seats because they deserve it. End of.

[Hotel Tango]

It's not as if older age automatically makes you a safer pilot. I would even dare to suggest that there's more chance of a young crew being 100% fully concentrated on their task as opposed to an older crew who perhaps unwittingly allow their concentration to lapse a little from many years of routine.

[Pace]

Hotel Tango

I don't think its about absent minded senior moment pilots I know some 70 year olds who still fly non AOC commercial OPS in jets who are very knowledgeable and on the ball

It maybe that they were taught in a different Era? It maybe that with such vast experience comes complacency?
It maybe that the motivation and keenness of young pilots has mellowed somewhat so there is a reluctance and lack of hunger to take on new stuff or not to be quite as focused as their younger counterparts if its true )

[Penny Washers]

My experience in the legal profession is that you don't argue with a recently qualified person. Their knowledge is all at their fingertips and is bang up to date.

However, every job is different, and that is where experience comes in.

Does this read across to flying jobs? Most trips will be the same old A to B flights which do not present new problems or are outside the standard training syllabus. In fact, the aircraft can probably fly itself better than the humans in the cockpit. But when abnormal situations do arise, then I would hope to see a bit more experience up front.

[OxfordGold]

Its exactly like that Penny.

[Chronus]

Cannot fully agree with Penny. Newly qualifieds are knowledgeable but their knowledge is limited to that learned in the class room. Now, who would want to be represented by a lawyer fresh out of law school/college, when standing in the dock of a criminal court. Who would you chose a George Carman QC or your novice lawyer. By the way I understand the youngest ever to take silk was 36.
Though I do agree that you don`t argue with a novice, there is little point in doing that. Arguing does not teach them anything.

[2Planks]

If these two had both gone swanning off found the Far East on a gaap yaaah and then spent 4 years at uni studying Media and then seen the light and gone for an aviation career there wouldn't be a story here, but the experience and ability to fly would be exactly the same.


Move on folks. Congratulations to the two pilots, your hard work has been rewarded.

[SW1]

Could be on of the youngest 4 stripers around under 26!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLsJJd7T8f8

[KenV]

I know in Vietnam lots of 19 years old kids flew dangerous combat missions , but that was deliberate ,as at this age one does not ask questions when told to drop napalm on targets if they were civilians around.I'm quite sure that most (all?) older pilots had the same (perhaps stronger) "no questions asked" mind set during a hot war. I'm certain that lots of older pilots had a "no questions asked" mind set when their finger was over the pickle to release a nuke on a city full of civilians.

[WHBM]

Back when BEA took on pilot cadets, it was apparently quite common for one to come straight from school at age 18 and be on the line when still aged 19.

One of the comments about the Trident accident at Staines was the ages of the crew other than the Captain, 22 and 24, the younger being P2 with six weeks service on the line and 29 hours on type.

[Fire and brimstone]

An interesting debate, largely from the perspective of outside observers.

Another perspective would be that of a passenger.

Take an express train. The passengers have a choice of the guy with an unblemished record of driving the train, with 30 years experience.

Or.

You can have a brand new driver, at the minimum age.

Who would a majority of passengers choose, if you are being honest?

The influx of new blood into the industry is a wonderful thing, but there is a danger here of trying to claim experience counts for nothing.

I do remember a safety system at a previous airline where they ask, in every safety report, what experience levels the crew have. Why is this, one wonders.

Does any new Captain think he would have done a better job than a certain Captain, landing in a river with no engines? if they do, then they would be a fool.

We are all on the same team, but lets keep it real.

[Willy Miller]

Should read

"Youngest airline captain votes to strike over long term fatigue"

[Pace]

Does any new Captain think he would have done a better job than a certain Captain, landing in a river with no engines? if they do, then they would be a fool.

I agree on the experience thing but they will get that pretty quickly flying 4 sector days in a mass of weather also flying as an FO they will experience a lot of the decisions and conditions flying with other Captains

The Hudson event ? I think 99% of pilots given the built up area would have taken to the river a successful outcome being part skill part luck ))

[Chronus]

I agree on the experience thing but they will get that pretty quickly flying 4 sector days in a mass of weather also flying as an FO they will experience a lot of the decisions and conditions flying with other Captains

The Hudson event ? I think 99% of pilots given the built up area would have taken to the river a successful outcome being part skill part luck ))
With all due respect PACE, I really do think if you were to read Sully`s book "Highest Duty ", am sure it will give you a greater understanding of what it means to be a Captain. I am not sure if I am permitted to quote a little from his book, but I will chance it and let the moderator decide.

" With authority comes greater responsibility. A captain needs leadership skills to take individuals on his crew and make them feel and perform like a team. It`s a heavy professional burden on the captain to know he may be called upon to tap into the depths of his experience, the breadth of his knowledge, and his ability to think quickly, weighing everything he knows while accounting for what he cannot know."

By the way, my understanding of the book is that it is not about the so called "Miracle on the Hudson". It is all about what it takes, what it means to be a pilot in command of an aircraft. The title of the book is wholly appropriate.

You think 99% of pilots would have gone for the river as this was the Hobson`s choice and that the ingredients for the successful outcome included luck. Millions believe in luck and for that they bet on the lottery every week. Do they all become overnight millionaires. Do you think Sully bet on luck. The weather conditions were not adverse, it was not night, there was no fire, it did not happen at a lower altitude, it happened precisely at the right time and at the right place. All so conveniently ordered and arranged by the crones of fate who had decreed luck for Sully, his crew and passengers.
I think the only lucky thing for all concerned, in the aircraft and on the ground was Sully in the left seat. A man of great integrity, sound judgement and great experience, completely devoted to his profession as a pilot.
I think all those who aspire to the job should be made to read his book. They will be humbled, just as I was.

[Prangster]

Lets get this young age thing in perspective shall we. Bomber Command was awash with 19yr old aircrews who managed quite well thankyou. Why some of these whippersnappers even managed to stop the Luftwaffe in its tracks in 1940. Non one complained about their ages then. Competency is all whether threading an airliner through crowded skies or braving Bremens flak.

[Chronus]

Prangster no need for time travel back 76 years. Lots of competency going on currently over Syria. Maybe when they have finished with all their competency bit over there they can jump straight in the left seats of our airliners and take us on holiday, giving us a jolly good time looping the loop all the way. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead chaps fashion. Would be great don`t you think.

[dr dre]

A lot of comments here criticising this captain (and maybe 20 something captains in general) for lacking experience, lacking knowledge, lacking judgement etc due to age. The captain in question has been flying as an FO in this company for over 5 years, meaning 4000-5000ish hours in the right seat, meaning they are not exactly inexperienced. 5 years from employment to command upgrade is a substantial amount of time at a lot of airlines (and would be considered long at some), so would these people criticise someone in their 30's or 40's who had started flying later in life, and three done 5yrs in the RH seat before upgrading?

[Kuchan]

As an LAE of 42 experience, I would always welcome an older Captain with debriefing and discussing of any in depth aircraft defects than young captain who would return aircraft to stand with 200 kgs of fuel below min. after engine started. Experience counts.

[atlas12]

Media beat up story, who cares? I had my first command at 24. Nobody said anything, nobody cared.

[swingstate]

I'm commenting on this article from a standpoint of someone who has been in her shoes(ish).

I attained command on the 737NG with a well known European LCC at the age of 24 and at present I have about 3500 hours as PIC to my name with a total 6500 hours at the age of 28.

At certain times in my early career as a captain I have operated flights where the combined flight crew experience did not exceed 45 years of age and 4000 fight hours total. Coincidentally, I have at the age of 24, once or twice, been the oldest crew member on board the aircraft.

I can't make any assumptions on how those facts would be perceived by passengers should they be aware of those numbers.

Looking back at the past four years however I can say, without a doubt, the biggest challenges faced by myself as a commander have been of a human nature.

The practice of operating aircraft, again in my personal opinion, comes down to the application of knowledge and skills. Your success here is directly proportional to how hard one works at improving these skills.

But human interaction is a whole different animal altogether. Conflict resolution, leadership, communication, cultural differences, ageism, the game of tug between empathy and duty, just to name a few things. Every interaction with another human being is unique and the strongest challenges might pop up at the most unexpected moment.

There certainly have been times where I have felt out of my depth due to a lack of life experience. You make mistakes and you learn from them.

[Pace]

Chronus

I wasn't actually referring to him or what he did but to such an event! Yes he was a very brilliant, skilled and competent pilot.
I was talking about choices and the choices of landing into houses or if you have the glide range of putting down into a river.
As in any forced landing without power from a small aircraft up there is a large element of skill and some luck I don't take that back
Even in the Hudson case had the engines stopped at a lower altitude it would have been a different story so an element of luck has to be there

I remember after the event looking at London and the Thames and thinking whether anyone could put down there! Parts yes but there are many curves and bridges closer together as well as boats which could stray into your path so even with the larger, wider, straighter Hudson there has to be luck but at least the Hudson is a wide very long potential runway albeit water

Check this out? Could a 25 year old manage it? Maybe ?

As the public has come to understand it, Sully saved the lives of everybody on board through nerves of steel and superhuman flying skills. The truth isn’t quite so romantic...

[The] nuts and bolts of gliding into water aren’t especially difficult. The common sense of water landings is one of the reasons pilots don’t even train for them in simulators... and nowhere in the public discussion has the role of luck been adequately acknowledged. Specifically, the time and place where things went wrong. As it happened, it was daylight and the weather was reasonably good; there off Sullenberger’s left side was a 12-mile runway of smoothly flowing river, within swimming distance of the country’s largest city and its flotilla of rescue craft. Had the bird-strike occurred over a different part of the city, at a lower altitude (beyond gliding distance to the Hudson), or under more inclement weather conditions, the result was going to be an all-out catastrophe, and no amount of talent or skill was going to matter...

Nothing they did was easy, and a successful outcome was by no means guaranteed. But they did what they had to do, what they were trained to do, and what, presumably, any other crew would have done in that same situation. And let’s not forget the flight attendants, whose actions were no less commendable. Thus the passengers owe their survival not to miracles or heroics, but to less glamorous forces. They are, in descending order (pardon the pun): luck, professionalism, skill, and technology.

There’s little harm in celebrating the unlikely survival of 155 people, but terms like “hero” and “miracle” shouldn’t be thrown around lightly. A miracle describes an outcome that cannot be rationally explained. Everything that happened on the river that day can be rationally explained.
http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/31485/how-miraculous-was-the-miracle-on-the-hudson

[PAXboy]

EZ pick a young FO to match to the new Cpt. Had PR picked a 35yr SFO, the story would not have been so 'sweet' for the meedja.

Experience blows both ways - how old the Captain on Emirates 521...

This is yesterday's news.

[Chesty Morgan]

Media beat up story, who cares? I had my first command at 24. Nobody said anything, nobody cared.

Are you, or were you, female?

[Le Chevalier Noir]

You rise to the occasion. From my experience, limited to a few years as a loco f/o and a few more as a flag carrier ditto, and a little bit of work with flight safety. Having flown with captains ranging from brand new 25 years olds up to 60+ guys with 40 years of experience, it's very rarely the young ones that are the problem. Most of the bad CRM I've seen comes from the older Captains and f/os. The truly brilliant ones is a vast mix of age and experience. My conclusion is that personality is what counts - not how long time you've been incompetent.

[Sleepybhudda]

Its annoying that the PR at easyjet didn't research their claim. She's clearly not the youngest Airline Captain. The internet shows that in a fairly quick internet search and so many posts by people on pprune are offering up names airline and dates, to prove it. The CNN article at the beginning doesn't differentiate with her being female it just says "Their employer, the British carrier Easyjet, believes McWilliams has become the world's youngest commercial airline captain" is it wrong that this frustrates me? I always felt accuracy was an important part of aviation, granted maybe not Airline PR.

[RAT 5]

Had a friend back in the days of Air Anglia and F27. They diverted from Norwich to EMA and were told to rent a car from company partner Hertz and bring the crew of 4 back to base. No car allowed as the whole crew was under 25yrs old. Hm?

[Alan Biles]

I regularly flew as SLF on Garuda F28s in the 1980s and all their aircrew appeared to be about 15. Baseball caps, string-back racing gloves and reflective sunglasses. Curling, Spitfire-type approaches to 6000' runways but only using the first 1000'. For an aircraft without reverse thrust it could stop on a sixpence but if you didn't have your seatbelt on you'd end up in the cockpit. Oh, and navigating by joining up the red dots on the wx radar. Laugh? I thought I'd never start.

[FLCH]

I'm more impressed by a bunch of mid 20 year olds putting a man in space and on the moon.

[Nightstop]

Ahh, Air Anglia and hire cars..those were the days. I had my Command with them on the F27 at age 24 (not female BTW).

[Heathrow Harry]

"SLF on Garuda F28s in the 1980s" - I can remember they had a panel that had acres of empty space - just about the basic T - and they were better than Bouraq or (shudder) Merpati

But the F28 was/is a great aeroplane for that part of the world - built for carrier-style landings on awful airstrips in dreadful conditions.......... Same in Nigeria

[wiggy]

Hi FLCH

I'm more impressed by a bunch of mid 20 year olds putting a man in space and on the moon.

As well as that Titov flew in space at age 25 (Still the youngest to do so).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gherman_Titov

In the context of the thread Valentina Tereshkova was 26 when she flew...

[olster]

Chronus, I completely agree with you. The only luck with the Hudson landing was that the highest professional capability was in the LHS that day. The passengers got lucky, also the F/O was an experienced and capable operator. I do not understand the significance of youthful command. Where I am uneasy is that I moved right to left on a B747 at age 34. I had been an F/O for 11 years prior. I only just felt capable at that age to make the transition from the perspective of experience, flying and life, to deal with the responsibility. We're all different of course and fair play to the young lady. However, I suspect some easy spin: look how easy it is to be a captain at a young age etc.

[Pace]

Olster

Read this and say there was no luck involved or no other crews could have achieved it. Yes he was a very professional exceptional brilliant Pilot and may I add man but not a God
You don't know this 25 year old female Captain would not have pulled it off

emergency - How miraculous was the miracle on the Hudson? - Aviation Stack Exchange (http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/31485/how-miraculous-was-the-miracle-on-the-hudson)

[Right Way Up]

To a certain extent experience is not as relevant as the makeup of the pilot. There are people of Sully's experience and age who would have made a complete horlicks of the situation. There are Captains with 20,000 hours who have been very lucky that they have never been truly tested.

[IcePack]

Or they turned "a trying event" into a non event.

[Right Way Up]

That wasn't quite what I meant. 20000 hour pilots with the right make-up are a god send. There are however a fair few very experienced Captains who are not made of the right stuff and with more luck than judgement have survived their careers!

[Chronus]

There is much tunnel vision on this discussion. The questions and considerations cannot be confined to accidents alone.

Some, if not most know or have heard of the hijacking of the AF 40 years ago. The Entebbe affair. At the time the captain of that flight, Michel Bacos was aged 52. How did he cope with the situation. Capt Bacos and his crew of 12 were offered the chance to go, but refused to leave while people were still being held.
I was a captain of Air France and before that I was in the Free French Forces under Charles de Gaulle during the Second World War - it would be impossible for me to leave my passengers, unimaginable, he said.
I told my crew that we must stay until the end, because that was our tradition, so we cannot accept being freed. All my crew agreed without exception, he added.
Perhaps it was this sort of thing Sully had in mind when he wrote "..weighing everything he knows while accounting for what he cannot know."
Under such circumstances, I wonder what sort of authority, let alone the qualities required to exercise the sort of judgement that can only be acquired by nothing but time, be possessed by a 26 year old captain and a school leaver first officer.

[Lonewolf_50]

Chronus, please us a quote block to differentiate your words from the words you are quoting from Captain Bacos (in re Entebbe_. It took a minute to realize that you had not been in the Free French forces with DeGaulle. :eek:

[Pace]

I was in AWE too :ok:

[Chronus]

My humble apologies to you both, PACE and Lonewolf 50. The only admission I`d make is that I have always remained in Antoine de Saint Exupery`s camp.

[Pace]

Chronus

We can get too serious in these threads at least it brought a smile ;)

[Bill Macgillivray]

Getting a bit serious, I feel!! Good for them (and Flybe, of whom I am not a great admirer!). Age, ability and experience certainly count, but not always in that order!
Many previous posts refer to young military pilots, not the same, I know. However, they did (and still do) remarkably well !
I had my full "Wings" some time before I passed my driving test! Still alive after a life in aviation ( military and civil) and have full confidence in the younger generation!!

Admire them.

[RodH]

Quite some years ago I was flying with an Australian Domestic Airline who had quite a character of a Captain. This very large fellow was determined to be one of the highest " houred " pilots of all time. If I recall correctly he had 30000 + hours . Many people would say " wow , he has plenty of experience " !!!
However---- he flew the DC4 & 6's and a lot of freighters.
Without any exaggeration as soon as the aircraft was " clean " he would hand over to the F/O and go to SLEEP until close to the latter stage of descent.
Sure , this guy had plenty of hours but at least 75% of them would have been whilst asleep !!!!!!!!!!.
Many hours do not make an experienced Captain in a lot of circumstances and this is a prime example.
Experience is learned and can't be done whilst asleep.
A pilots hours are a good yardstick but it's very important to see just what those hours were gained on and under what conditions.

[GLAEDI]

All I can think of is how many 18 & 19 year olds who flew spitfires & hurricanes (ok mustangs if you were Johny come lately Yanks) that led the aviation growth in the 40s & 50s. That's the era when Pilots earned their crust. Today's aircraft have all the help from computers to help pilots in those days pilots really did fly by the seat of their pants!

[macuser]

Haven't read all the posts on this thread but all I can say is that an inexperienced captain on EasyJet does not get rostered with a low hours f/o.

[Willie Nelson]

A better tittle for the article might have read: 'Young female captain and co pilot, pilot Boeing 737', but it just doesn't have quite the same ring to it. Always good to read about though.

I've no doubt that the standards these pilots had to meet were considerable, well done to them both, there are not enough women in the flight deck and the rest of us could benefit greatly from the different perspective that they bring.

In relation to the experience debate, I was a told that I would be at my best and brightest when I first received my command five years ago. I remember thinking that although it was a big achievement to get there, surely this could not be the best that I could be as a Captain, after all I was only 36 and, God willing had a long career ahead of me. So I made sure that this was not true.

Every day I make an effort to learn something new about my craft. Whether it's reading crash comics to determine what went wrong and how I might have coped or looking up something in our procedures that I haven't seen for a while or discussing alternative courses of actions that we might take with other crew, I'm always learning. This has, so far ensured that I am a much better captain than I was five years ago and hopefully will get better yet.

I have no doubt that this Captain and her first officer will endeavour to improve themselves as they continue to gain experievnce, well done.

[Cmon-PullUP]

Haven't read all the posts on this thread but all I can say is that an inexperienced captain on EasyJet does not get rostered with a low hours f/o.

Yes they do.

[Pace]

Sure , this guy had plenty of hours but at least 75% of them would have been whilst asleep !!!!!!!!!!.
Many hours do not make an experienced Captain in a lot of circumstances and this is a prime example.
Experience is learned and can't be done whilst asleep.
A pilots hours are a good yardstick but it's very important to see just what those hours were gained on and under what conditions.

I am not an airline pilot but fly corporate jets as a Captain
I used to fly a number pf piston twins totalling 3000 hrs, often low level ( 10,000 -12000 feet in the worst weather,icing and turbulence! Often single pilot, day/ night, often OCAS and often into airfields which had poor or no instrument approaches. This meant a lot of creative flying.
Now its in jets which climb relatively quickly, are far more reliable than the pistons, go above the weather in CAS from start to finish as part of a crew.
The Piston twins were far more demanding and harder to fly making you think for yourself more especially operating in IMC OCAS than the jets

[dr dre]

Its annoying that the PR at easyjet didn't research their claim. She's clearly not the youngest Airline Captain. The internet shows that in a fairly quick internet search and so many posts by people on PPRuNe are offering up names airline and dates, to prove it. The CNN article at the beginning doesn't differentiate with her being female it just says "Their employer, the British carrier Easyjet, believes McWilliams has become the world's youngest commercial airline captain" is it wrong that this frustrates me? I always felt accuracy was an important part of aviation, granted maybe not Airline PR.


Aren't Easyjet going through an industrial troubles with their pilots ATM? These articles may just be an attempt at good PR to focus attention away from those troubles.
To me this story is more a story about the failure of modern journalism. Any reporter worth their salt could have spent 10 minutes on Google and easily discovered that a 26 year old isn't the world's "youngest commercial airline captain". But in a bid to cut costs newsrooms have been slashed, and resources are limited. Reporters have basically become corporate PR writers, just rewriting company press releases instead of checking facts and sources (ie real investigative journalism). And in the world of twitter, where people want information instantly, media companies are in a battle to be the first to get the articles published, regardless of accuracy.

[RodH]

Surely you must be jesting!!!!!!!
Fancy thinking that any reporter would dare to do a bit of research to validate his/her story .
Heavens forbid---- that would make it accurate and we can't have that in the world of journalism now can we ??
As has been said so many times " Why let the truth/ facts spoil a good story.

[Willie Nelson]

That's True Dr. Dre, but that's really not news either. Journalism worldwide has been deteriorating for some years and the readers are increasingly expected to throw a much more sceptical eye over everything that they read as News versus paid PR.

Many circulars will be happy to publish for a fee articles such as this and I'm sure that Easy Jet would be more than happy to pay. There's still plenty of us talking about the article nevertheless, that's a good result from the publishers point of view.

In Autralia, the largest newspaper publisher, which continues to run at a significant loss, is owned by Rupert Murdoch and titled 'Limited News' (I could have those two words back to front possibly) regularly runs pay for space 'Journalism' and although they have a code of conduct which requires them to disclose when a fee is paid there are a lot of 'oversights' for which they are not penalised.

[triploss]

Are there any statistics regarding the incidence of pilot errors relative to age?

Until I see that, I'll asume that things are similar to the way they are in my profession: older people will get more confident regardless of how competent they are, and young people will be less confident regardless of how competent they are. And the competence is pretty much independent of age. A competent person with a lot of experience will be stronger than a competent person with little experience, but the competent with little experience will still majorly outperform the experienced incompetents.

[Willit Run]

The 737 is THE primary jet trainer now that the 727 is basically retired. OK, some may say the A320 series is, but nonetheless, there is nothing spectacular about this. I'm happy for her and him. lets move on....................

[Biggles78]

First, I am in no way intentionally belittling the wonderful achievement of this Captain (they are a Captain, not a male Captain or a female Captain; just a Captain) and any innuendos that may arise are also unintentional due to my present medical condition and medication consumption. Also the young fella has done very well also at that age so kudos to him as well. :D


However, with all the automation that there is now (and I suppose for quite some time now) how can you rate experience. Does this Captain engage the autopilot 30 seconds after take-off and places their hands on the controls a minute of two before landing. How much actual stick time (manual/physical flying experience) would they have had in those 5 years in the right seat?


I do not question their systems monitoring experience in those 5 years but that doesn't count towards actual hands on experience. I remember my Instructor who sent me solo 40 and a bit years ago telling me about his ride in a DC-8 jump-seat and how surprised he was when the pilot (Captain or F/O, can't remember) hand flew the aircraft on approach from 10,000 feet. Maybe I am just a demented old fool now (ok, so no maybe about it :( ) but to me that is experience. I don't blame the pilots for not having that experience and there have been enough posts that have gone into why this has come about.


There was the case a few years ago in Oz of a pilot in the J* program who could hand fly an accurate and stable approach from 10,000 feet but did not pass line training because he was a little slow on getting into the flow with using the automatics. I know that there must be a balance somewhere between the two but not being a magenta line child I tend to lean towards the Captain or F/O who can actually hand fly the aircraft when the automatics have a hissy fit. Probably AF447, and others, would/may not have had the same outcome if there had been more actual flying experience on those two very important front seats.


That over used and tired, IMO, company catch phrase "Safety is our main priority" would ring more true if pilots became a bit more like pilots and a little less like systems monitors. Yes the automatics are important but so are our hard earned stick and rudder skills.

[I-AINC]

So...what's the news?

[4468]

Triploss

Excellent post!

So, what is 'experience' and how do we quantify it? Well, if you're talking of flying experience, you just add up the total time that the a/c is in motion. For many of us that might include a take-off and landing every hour or two. For others it may include ten hours or more in the cruise over the Atlantic/Pacific/Africa etc, with one take off/landing every 12 hours or so, 3 or 4 hours of which were probably wearing your pyjamas in the bunk!:sad:

A wise person once said: It doesn't matter how many hours you have in your logbook. Only the next one's important.

A previous poster was correct. No female, no story! Maybe Easy don't have many. At my outfit it's becoming more usual all the time. Rightly so.

Just PR. Nothing to see here. Move along!

The REAL story at Easy is the level of fatigue, not the level of experience! But the management want to keep one of those stories OUT of the papers!

[Pace]

Biggles

I know a few Easy Jet Captains and if conditions are correct and the airspace not too demanding they often hand fly below RVSM airspace.
After a spate of accidents due to over reliance on the automatics that is now being encouraged.

I know in my own realm of corporate Jets on short position flights below RVSM for Maintenance etc we will make it a must to hand fly the whole sector as it really keeps to on the ball to match the accuracy of the automatics. I never especially on the Older Biz Jets trust the automatics anyway )

Like the Airlines with PAX and if conditions and airspace congestion allow we often hand fly the departure SIDS and arrivals STARS anyway. The Key is airspace up to RVSM levels

I think you will find the Airlines do similar ? Comments

[ATC Watcher]

Times are also changing: look at this short advert video :
https://www.ispot.tv/ad/ANt5/hainan-airlines-elegance-featuring-lang-lang
The captain featured there is a 20 something kid , not a 50+ as it would be in a similar advert for a mainstream major airline .
We have to get used to it it seems !

[Hotel Tango]

:) Just PR stuff. Although he's sitting in the left seat I'm not so sure that he has 4 stripes.

[icelandflyer]

Personal source but I believe she was the subject of a return to stand after a fellow bus driver made a fuss about her not de-icing a large chunk of ice on the wing.

Anyone heard similar?

[Pontius Navigator]

OK, not passengers but nuclear bomber pilots, 23 and copilot 20. Captain might have less than 1,000 hrs and co as many as 300. Worried?

[SFCC]

Well done Miss McWilliams.
Superb achievement.

[student88]

..but is it?

[SFCC]

Have you done better?

[Silly Pilot]

I hear that Alerion Aviation will upgrade to Jet Captain after two months experience in Jets. Sounds like a financial decision while experienced pilots have left. They offered the First Officer a raise to $55,000 to take the helm and he accepted it. They operate on Air Rudder part 135 certificate.
Desperation kills.

I wish them luck, they will need it.

[megatop747]

People's Express Had a 23-year-old 747 Captain

Wrong. The lady who flew People Express 747 was 30. As a former 747 commander and director of safety, I can assure you no company woul give command of a 747 to a 23-year old kid with no more than a 1000 hours total flight time.

[costalpilot]

People's Express Had a 23-year-old 747 Captain
no thanks.