Samsung Tablet / phone problems (Combined) [Archive]

archae86

25th Sep 2016, 04:44

Do crews receive training on how to handle a burning lithium battery as the metal can be very reactive and placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery. Also some metals can ripe the oxygen out of the water and keep burning. Just wonder if any research has been done on the best way to extinguish one.
I happen to have a friend who happens to have an advanced degree from a serious school, who happened to spend a substantial part of the last few years of his working career tormenting various sort of lithium batteries, often to the point of destruction, occasionally to the point of violent, catastrophic destruction. The did so in the employ of a major organization with the clearest possible reason to seek the correct answer.

I asked him this question just a few days ago, and he was utterly unambiguous. According to both direct experimental test and physical understanding the best way to handle a smoldering lithium ion battery gadget is submerge it in water. The basic mechanism is cooling. There is no lithium in metallic form present in the battery. People citing their high school chemistry to claim danger from the use of water for this purpose are dead wrong.

None of this was any surprise to me but apparently the word still has not spread to some of those spreading their wisdom here.

Of course, neither he nor I are pilots, so mere knowledge of the subject may not count here.

Aluminium shuffler

25th Sep 2016, 05:26

The procedure is written into the Part E manuals, and submersion in water is correct to most effectively reduce the temperature. Our Part E is quite emphatic about not using ice as it is far less effective and could in fact provide some level of thermal insulation.

My concern is more where they put it - the galley is an easier place to maintain observation of the item than the toilet, and the environment in the galley is less combustible than the toilet area.

INNflight

25th Sep 2016, 06:08

Our flight attendants are trained for this annually, since it has become a bigger issue. Any fluid will help really. Coke, Sprite, water, gin, you name it. Pleeease not the gin tho. ;)

ACMS

25th Sep 2016, 07:54

We have these, or something similar

Firebags Can Snuff Out Onboard Li-ion Battery Fires | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2011-12-01/firebags-can-snuff-out-onboard-li-ion-battery-fires)

Local Variation

25th Sep 2016, 09:55

DaveReidUK

25th Sep 2016, 12:02

At the start of a flight yesterday, the cabin crew made specific reference to the Samsung device battery issue, concerning it's use in the cabin, not charging it on board and alerting staff if any such device was in hold baggage.

What, I wonder, would have happened in response to a passenger advising that they had a phone on their hold baggage ?

AtomKraft

25th Sep 2016, 13:52

Well, I was once summoned by our cabin crew to speak to a lady who insisted on talking to the captain.

'I've left my mobile phone in my hold baggage, and it's switched on', she honestly stated.

India Four Two

25th Sep 2016, 14:32

Well worth watching:

vS6KA_Si-m8

pilotmike

25th Sep 2016, 16:15

One never ceases to be amazed at what we can 'learn' on these fora:

@horizon flyer how to handle a burning lithium battery as the metal can be very reactive How exactly does that work then? There is no metallic lithium in the battery!

placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery. How exactly does that work then? A 'short circuit' is a zero Ohm load on the battery - water cannot possibly do that!

Also some metals can ripe the oxygen out of the water and keep burning. How exactly does this work then? The only thing 'ripe' in all this nonsense appears to be your imagination!

Why make up this nonsense? Why present your misunderstandings and false theories as facts? I'd keep them to yourself if you don't want others to 'ripe' the p1$$.!

Ian W

25th Sep 2016, 19:33

At the start of a flight yesterday, the cabin crew made specific reference to the Samsung device battery issue, concerning it's use in the cabin, not charging it on board and alerting staff if any such device was in hold baggage.

Never heard that before, but was very pleased to hear them covering this in the saftey brief nontheless.
Yes, on a flight on Friday the gate agents prebriefed that Samsung note 7s must be switched off and not charged during flight. That was then repeated by the FAs prior to the safety brief

core_dump

25th Sep 2016, 20:03

One never ceases to be amazed at what we can 'learn' on these fora:

Indeed! Like this gem:

A 'short circuit' is a zero Ohm load on the battery - water cannot possibly do that!

Take a wire and 'short out' a battery until the wire melts. I think you'd agree this is a 'short circuit' by any reasonable person's definition. The resistance can NOT be zero ohms, otherwise the wire would not heat up. Think about it.

pilotmike

25th Sep 2016, 22:23

OK, just for you, core dump.

horizon flyer was trying to teach us that "placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery." That is utter nonsense.

Your efforts to liken water's effect on a battery (many hundreds or thousands of Ohms, and negligible Wattage) to a wire ( a few tenths of an Ohm, and many Watts) is as flawed as horizon's thinking. Water across the terminals of a battery behaves nothing like being shorted with a wire whatsoever.

Your further quibble about whether a wire is effectively zero Ohms is a totally bogus argument which detracts from the very important issue of how to deal with such a dangerous situation in flight.

Putting a smouldering runaway Li Ion battery in water is EXACTLY the right move, for the very reasons given by numerous more knowledgeable contrinutors than either horizon or yourself.

core_dump

25th Sep 2016, 22:51

Your efforts to liken water's effect on a battery (many hundreds or thousands of Ohms, and negligible Wattage)

I made no effort to liken water's effect on a battery. I made no comment about water nor Li Ion batteries in this thread.

But since you brought it up: The resistance of water depends on the distance between the battery terminals and the amount of contaminants in the water. Since both are variable, it would be improper to say that water always has a resistance of "hundreds or thousands of ohms" when surrounding any given battery. Short terminal spacing and salty water (margarita? who knows) would result in far less resistance than you think. But still I never claimed it was a bad idea to dump a li ion battery in water.

A little off-topic, but interesting tidbit: On every one I've tested, the little light on the Mae West doesn't activate in fresh water. Only saltwater.

peekay4

25th Sep 2016, 23:02

Don't try this at home:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcrY59nGxBg

(at 110 volts and much higher amperage than typical batteries)

SLF3

26th Sep 2016, 11:07

Heard a briefing last week where we were told 'please tell a member of the cabin crew if you have a Samsung 7 in your hold luggage so we can delay the flight'.

Unlikely to get the desired result, I suggest.....

Twiglet1

26th Sep 2016, 19:44

Do pax airlines carry IPAD fire bags nowdays?

RevMan2

27th Sep 2016, 16:39

Australian carriers acted speedily to the Galaxy 7 recall by making the traveling public aware of the issue well before the FAA's ruling came into force on 9 Sep.
The carrier I flew intra-EU with was at the time claiming (so their social media feeds) to be making onboard announcement.
Nothing on 11 Sep, they were doing it on13 Sep saying "don't use/load/look at and DEFINITELY not in your checked baggage" after pushback.
During the entire online checkin (or kiosk)/bagdrop process, there was NOTHING to advise passengers of the risks.
Nothing visible on the airline's website (it's hidden under a second layer "Travel Information" heading and then tagged on to a topic addressing hoverboards. )

Which means that no-one knew not to pack a Galaxy 7 in their baggage.

Heaps of slices of Swiss cheese, the holes all nicely lined up....
(The airline involved wasn't interested in looking into the shortcomings in their processes, btw..)

Lancelot de boyles

27th Sep 2016, 17:18

The airline involved wasn't interested in looking into the shortcomings in their processes, btw..

Are you surprised?
In light of the recent revelations, there was a company statement issued regarding these Samsung phones as personal equipment.
I raised a query regarding the potential for transport (as DG) in cargo, with our relevant folks. Specifically, whether there were any extra efforts beyond recording the carriage of Lithium cells in general, in the DG NoToC.
The reply that I got completely missed the point, but I was offered extra training/guidance in how to handle a personal phone using the big red book, when next I'm in the office.

RevMan2

27th Sep 2016, 18:03

Something that's vaguely related to people not thinking processes through tyo the logical end
Samsung's recalling 2.5m phones and requires owners to send them in, upon receipt of which Samsung will forward replacements.
DHL/FedEx/UPS et al are supposedly saying "Transport damaged lithium batteries? Not a chance"
Square 1...

Johnny F@rt Pants

28th Sep 2016, 10:41

Haven't seen anything here relating to another lithium ion battery incident recently that resulted in a Delta flight diverting whilst en route from DTW to AMS into MAN.

Incident: Delta B764 near Manchester on Sep 25th 2016, tablet battery thermal runaway (http://avherald.com/h?article=49e7e5c5&opt=4096)

Seem to be becoming a bad habit of Samsung devices recently:\

safelife

28th Sep 2016, 10:46

My understanding is that the tablet got into the seat. Business class seats with their complicated and inaccessible mechanism are ideally suited to trap mobiles phones and eventually crush them when they are moved once it is somewhere inside. Happens all the time, I retrieved lots of phones out of those seats while flying long haul.

Ian W

28th Sep 2016, 11:05

I was told if phones get dropped down the various spaces around the seat cushion do not use any of the seat mechanisms especially business seat powered controls. There is normally a flight attendant who can disassemble the cushioned cladding and get into the seat to retrieve what was dropped. (Watched this mid-Atlantic a couple of times).

Safe-T

28th Sep 2016, 14:47

ATSB reported today on an actual ignition of a litium battery on a QF 747.
Crushed by seat. Crew handled it by the book it seems:

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=190393

dartmoorman

28th Sep 2016, 15:01

http://i67.tinypic.com/seuesi.jpg

TURIN

28th Sep 2016, 20:44

Just to add that apparently the Delta divert to MAN involved a tablet that had been lost down a seat on a previous flight and not recovered. Hmmm.

dartmoorman

29th Sep 2016, 09:30

With the proliferation of these "smart" devices it seems to me it is only a matter of time before a serious incident occurs . And only a few days ago a news report in the UK about vaping batteries ( cheap Chinese imports ) exploding ......

Ian W

30th Sep 2016, 11:30

Although seats are meant to be fire retardant, considering the potential hazard and demonstrated occurences, perhaps it is time for the seat manufacturers to consider designs that do not allow passenger carried items to 'drop through the cracks' in the seat.

dartmoorman

3rd Oct 2016, 08:43

"As of September 15, 2016, 129 air/airport incidents involving lithium batteries carried as cargo or baggage that have been recorded since March 20, 1991"

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/aircarrier_info/media/Battery_incident_chart.pdf

deeceethree

3rd Oct 2016, 10:03

Heard a briefing last week where we were told 'please tell a member of the cabin crew if you have a Samsung 7 in your hold luggage so we can delay the flight'.
Australian carriers acted speedily to the Galaxy 7 recall by making the traveling public aware of the issue well before the FAA's ruling came into force on 9 Sep.
......
Which means that no-one knew not to pack a Galaxy 7 in their baggage.

A couple of the posts here have used the term "Samsung 7" or "Galaxy 7" when referring to the recent battery fire and recall issues experienced by some Samsung device owners. Be very careful with the terminology you use when describing the actual problem device because the problem exists specifically with the Samsung Galaxy Note7. Samsung has two other similarly named devices that are not subject to the problems and recall action, these are the Galaxy S7 and Galaxy S7 Edge.

It is the Samsung Galaxy Note7 with it's stylus pen that you need to be careful about, and I believe it is the versions purchased before 15 September that have the faulty battery. Samsung has begun an international recall program to exchange potentially faulty Note7 devices with new ones that have a reliable battery. Of course, it will likely be some time before regulatory authorities and airlines revise their newly-announced rules to deal with the carriage of the Galaxy Note7, so even versions that have the newer battery will undoubtedley get swept up up in not being allowed to be carried or turned on etc.

The Samsung Galaxy Note7 is easily identified from the other two devices because it has a stylus pen that is stored by sliding it up into a receptacle hole on the bottom right-hand corner of the device. So, just be sure you know which particular device you are actually referring to before anyone is accused of maligning owners of the Galaxy S7 or Galaxy S7 Edge smartphones. ;)

PS: No, I am not affiliated with Samsung in any way, but I do own a Galaxy S7 and I do fly large passenger-carrying airliners for a living. :ok:

SMT Member

3rd Oct 2016, 12:09

Samsung's recalling 2.5m phones and requires owners to send them in, upon receipt of which Samsung will forward replacements.
DHL/FedEx/UPS et al are supposedly saying "Transport damaged lithium batteries? Not a chance"
Square 1...

What makes you think the faulty units will be shipped all the way back to Korea? The logistics cost would be astronomical, and for what gain? Harvesting a processor or some other fancy bits? The 'new' Note7 has changed it's internal architecture, so you probably can't swap things over easily. But, that's besides the point. Point is, it'll cost a serious lot and be a major hassle, shipping a couple million units back to the mothership for little, if any, gain. They'll be tossed on-site, crushed properly at re-cycling centres. Which, incidentally, will also cost them a fair deal of money - but far, far less than shipping them home.

Ian W

4th Oct 2016, 00:47

deeceethree:
It is the Samsung Galaxy Note7 with it's stylus pen that you need to be careful about, and I believe it is the versions purchased before 15 September that have the faulty battery. Samsung has begun an international recall program to exchange potentially faulty Note7 devices with new ones that have a reliable battery.

I seriously doubt with the number of different PEDs and cell phones around that cabin crew will be able to identify the Galaxy Note 7 from a Galaxy 7 or a Galaxy Note 5 or even an LG or HTC phone. There will even be some pax that are uncertain what phone they have. Although Samsung have had around 40 problem devices per million of the type with a misdesigned battery, they are not the only company to have had incendiary phones or laptops.
It would make sense to have standard rules for all devices with lithium batteries. For example devices should always be completely shut down if put in the overheads or in underseat luggage space. The only time the devices can be on or be charged is when the pax have them out. All flights should carry containers or bags that can be filled with water to immerse an e-cigarette, a PED or a laptop with a runaway battery. The cabin crew should be trained in actions in the rare event that one of these devices overheats.

Expecting crew and pax to identify particular models of PED is asking a lot.

Lancelot de boyles

4th Oct 2016, 23:44

Question-

A galaxy Note 7 which previously would be covered in one way or other, under handling guidelines of dangerous goods due it's battery. Now under recall, can you reasonably say it's still covered under the same guidelines as the same device/risk?

Answers on a fire retardant postcard, please.

Personally, I'd say it no longer complies, simply because it appears more likely to present a (rather serious) problem than other similar devices. Hence the recall.
And equally personally, I'm not too keen on them being included in freight somewhere just behind me, whether I know about it, or un-declared.
:ouch:

Noxegon

5th Oct 2016, 19:57

Meanwhile, an apparently safe replacement Note 7 bids goodbye cruel world:

Replacement Samsung Galaxy Note 7 phone catches fire on Southwest plane - The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/5/13175000/samsung-galaxy-note-7-fire-replacement-plane-battery-southwest)

pax britanica

5th Oct 2016, 20:19

A very unpleasant thought , and I am not sure of the chemistry and physics involved but bringing one of these devices aboard an airliner is essentially bringing and incendiary device on board, whether the otherwise harmless device randomly decides to cook off on its own or not are they not a risk in the event the bad guys find a way of making sure they do go into thermal.

obviously you would need some form of complex manipulation of the battery and its its power output needing a computer to manage , but then they are encased in a computer anyway. Seem very scary to me and I have to say i am not sure they belong on an aircraft if penknives, bottles of water and tubes of toothpaste are all banned.

olandese_volante

5th Oct 2016, 22:31

in the event the bad guys find a way of making sure they do go into thermal
Forcefully bending or crushing the device will most likely cause enough damage to the battery to persuade it to short out and catch fire. No complex manipulation or computer skills required.
However, such fires are easily dealt with by cabin personnel as has been pointed out earlier in this thread. I'd dismiss the threat of a "bad guy" trying to bring down an airliner with his smartphone battery as "not very credible".
As for eventual attempts to have a device cook off while in checked luggage in the hold, I understand that most airlines already have a policy that dictates such devices be carried in cabin luggage only.

Airbubba

5th Oct 2016, 23:42

An update on today's Samsung replacement phone fire on a Southwest plane:

Note7 owner says smoking phone was a replacement from Samsung

Wednesday, October 5th 2016, 6:40 pm EDT

By Katie Bauer, Reporter

LOUISVILLE, KY (WAVE) – Southwest Airlines flight 994, destined for Baltimore, never made it off the tarmac at the Louisville International Airport on Wednesday. The plane was grounded when a cell phone caught fire and filled part of the cabin with smoke.

The owner of the phone, Brian Green of New Albany, said he was very well aware of the potential dangers of the Samsung Galaxy Note7. He said he did everything the company asked him to do.

“You just never think those things are going to happen to you,” Green said.

Green said he had just boarded when flight attendants gave specific instructions for certain Samsung cell phone owners.

“They asked everyone with a Note7 to power down their phones,” he said.

Green said he did just that.

“Within a few seconds I heard a pop, similar to a zip lock bag popping open,” Green said. “I kind of looked around to see what was going on and I had smoke just billowing out of my clothes.”

Worried it may explode, Green didn't know what else to do, so he threw it on the floor of the plane.

“It was electronic smoke, it was that brown, green-gray, real ugly stuff. But it was pretty thick coming out of the device,” Green said.

Green said he'd had this phone for only two weeks after he turned in his previous Note7, as urged to do so by Samsung. He got a loner phone and then upgraded to the newest model.

“It had a green battery indicator, which was supposed to say this was a replaced or known good phone,” Green said. “On the box, there was a black square with serial and IMEI number information, which is supposed to indicate it was a known good phone. I did everything I could. I even looked at the IMEI number at home real quick and it said, 'Great news you're in luck, you're not on the recall list.”

Green has owned Samsung cell phones for almost five years. “I loved that phone. I will say that. It had a lot of nice features on it."

Now he's not sure if he will get another one, not ever wanting to go through this again.

“All indications said I've had one of the replaced phones and it still has its issues,” Green explained.

Green did reach out to Samsung, but said he hasn't heard back. In the meantime, he switched to another brand of cell phone and caught a different flight to Baltimore.

Arson investigators held on to the Samsung phone as evidence.

Pictures in the article linked here:

Note7 owner says smoking phone was a replacement from Samsung - wave3.com-Louisville News, Weather & Sports (http://www.wave3.com/story/33326561/note7-owner-says-smoking-phone-was-a-replacement-from-samsung)

Alanwsg

6th Oct 2016, 08:13

The replacements may have the same problem (But Samsung say 'NO') ...
'My REPLACEMENT Samsung Galaxy Note 7 blew up on plane' ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/05/replacement_samsung_galaxy_note_7_aircraft/)

dartmoorman

6th Oct 2016, 10:54

Back to the undisclosed exact quantity of lithium-ion batteries in the MH370 cargo manifest ..... ?

Quantum of Solace

6th Oct 2016, 13:01

Recent flights late September United Newark, NJ to SFO specific announcement about not turning on, using or charging new Samsung Galaxy Note 7. Sa. me announcement on Air New Zealand San Francisco-Auckland. Auckland- Melbourne.
Flights on Sichuan Airlines in April Melbourne to Chendu-Beijing and Hong Kong -Chendu-Melbourne with an internal Beijing-Chonqing flight had a tough rule on virtually all batteries. Had to be in carry-on only. I had a blister pack of a dozen non rechargeable alkaline batteries in my suitcase that was opened and inspected. I had a small coin pouch discovered and inspected as if it was not coins but button cells. Any recharge or battery extension rechargeable battery packs was inspected and the voltage and current had to be on the pack or it was seized.
On board the flight no smartphone could be used. even in flight mode but once at cruise the Chinese passengers took out their expensive iPads and could use them even if they had the same phone capabilities as my simple android phone I wanted to use to listen to music on my entertainment limited Sichuan flight.

ORAC

15th Oct 2016, 08:51

https://www.engadget.com/2016/10/14/us-bans-samsung-galaxy-note-7-on-all-flights/

"In the wake of Samsung's global recall of the Galaxy Note 7, the US has now banned the device on all aircraft, even if it's turned off. Previously, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) only issued a warning to have passengers keep the phones powered down during flights. But now, Bloomberg reports, you can't bring it on the plane at all.........."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/business/2016/10/13/alex_14102016.gif

PoppaJo

15th Oct 2016, 09:29

Qantas and Virgin Australia follows suit from midnight this evening, total ban.

Good luck enforcing this.

Noxegon

15th Oct 2016, 13:08

I guess the way to do it is to look for it at security. They probably won't stop them all, but I imagine most will be caught that way.

Boss429

15th Oct 2016, 13:42

Not in carry on. Not in checked bags. Nada.

FAA banning Samsung Galaxy Note 7 from all flights - Oct. 14, 2016 (http://money.cnn.com/2016/10/14/technology/samsung-galaxy-note-7-flight-ban/)

NWA SLF

15th Oct 2016, 13:44

Headline is misleading - it is the Galaxy Note 7 as stated inside, not the Galaxy S7 which is a completely different phone and not part of the ban.

Denti

15th Oct 2016, 13:48

Found it kinda amusing last night when the announcement was made on board banning all samsung phones ;)

Not a good thing for samsum happening there.

Richard Taylor

15th Oct 2016, 13:54

As Neil Diamond once sang: Sam Sung Blue..............everybody burns one.............. ;)

Longtimer

15th Oct 2016, 14:18

The ban has now spread to Canada but as with the US, enforcement will be the key, as passengers will likely try to smuggle their phones on-board particularly when returning home after being able to take them on their first leg. The only "real" way to enforce this ban is to have all phones vetted prior to boarding.

xray one

15th Oct 2016, 15:05

So now it's highly likely some of these phones will end up in the hold which is a far more dangerous situation

Car RAMROD

16th Oct 2016, 09:51

Happening in Australia too.
V Aus had a Samsung representative in the MEL terminal who I think was giving refunds or other phones to those with the note 7.

Many announcements in the terminal and in the aircraft that the phone was in no way allowed on the aircraft.

lomapaseo

16th Oct 2016, 14:33

Well the long haul over water flight I was on today, simply did a cabin announcement stating not to use them or to put them on charge.

I guess that will work for awhile while the Feds and airlines get their act together.

My wife couldn't understand why/how so I explained to her in homemaker terms that while on-charge was like having a dripping faucet, a drop at a time, and putting your thumb over the tap, after a while the pressure builds up and the water will spurt out in one big shower

SMT Member

16th Oct 2016, 14:33

What will happen, in this world of self-entitled delicate little flowers, is mayhem. They won't keep themselves informed, and when answering positive to the question 'are you carrying a Note 7' at check-in/in the gate*, their world will collapse. These are not people who can be far detached from their insta/twitta/face accounts for any length of time, and removing the mobile from a millennial is akin to slicing their wrists open.

Has Sam's son offered a full refund to all unlucky owners of the Note 7?

* Not onboard PAs. They are not heard by the aforementioned demography.

b1lanc

16th Oct 2016, 15:22

Meanwhile, airlines are beginning to deploy 'fire containment bags'.

https://www.cnet.com/news/airlines-fire-containment-bags-overheating-devices-samsung-note-faa/

G-CPTN

16th Oct 2016, 17:11

That's fine unless the device is in the hold baggage.

XX621

18th Oct 2016, 08:35

I've been following this debacle carefully as both a pilot and a Note7 owner. In the article below, a Samsung rep suggested "smuggling" the device back in a sock...

Horror Stories From the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 Flight Ban (http://gizmodo.com/horror-stories-from-the-samsung-galaxy-note-7-flight-ba-1787857399)

Obviously, this report could be a load of old smelly socks, but the article itself highlights the inevitable confusion at airports.

I don't believe there has been any incidents with a powered down device of course, but it's a cleaner message to just ban them from flying obviously.

I have bought many Samsung phones over the years, especially the Note series, and would be prepared to overlook this clearly unintentional and unfortunate failing in quality control/testing, but the way Samsung have conducted themselves could well be the sword they fall on. 4 weeks on, 6 calls to Samsung, and still no idea how I will be able to replace my device (for example).

KelvinD

18th Oct 2016, 09:47

XX621; Would it not be better to contact your supplier/service provider? My son (previously an iPhone slave) went to the Note 7 and received his the day before the official release here in UK. And very pleased he was with it too. Then the first issue with the battery was announced and after a day or 2 his service provider contacted him to say they will replace it with the latest version. They made the replacement very quickly and then came the latest series of announcements, culminating in the withdrawal of the Note 7 altogether. His service supplier immediately supplied him with the latest iPhone. A shame really, as he liked the Samsung. I, my brother and nephew have all been Samsung users for quite some time and are running the Galaxy 7 Edge. Great phones.
I tnink I would get on to the supplier and get a bit loud with them!

olandese_volante

18th Oct 2016, 11:11

Samsung is now setting up booths at airports (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/18/samsung-airport-booths-passengers-galaxy-note-7-phones) where travellers "stuck" with the Note 7 can hand it in for a refund or exchange on the spot.

XX621

18th Oct 2016, 13:27

KelvinD Yes, indeed...it was purchased brand new from eBay from a "reputable power seller" (I wanted the dual sim variant - hence eBay)..Who refused to accept it back and insisted I take it up with Samsung. I'm currently stuck in dispute process on that eBay front...and also pursuing Samsung on another as no courier firm will officially accept it for transportation. eBay said Samsung will provide fire proof boxes, but it turns out that is for the US market only. eBay are now saying they will refund me if the seller doesn't collect it and / or Samsung don't get in touch within the next few days. So good on eBay, shame on Samsung. It's been 4 weeks now since I purchased the phone, and actually would have been happy to swap it for an S7edge; but now I'm far from sold on Samsung as their actual actions on this have been almost incompetent. The people manning the support lines seem very confused themselves..and just promise a callback which never happens. They just haven't got their s**t together on this at all..stalls springing up at airports to provide replacements is just a media/PR side show. Twitter is full of people who have been left high and dry on this despite being loyal customers.

The Samsung brand is very much tainted now in my mind, and in the mind of many others, I'm afraid. Heard about a Lufthansa pilot yesterday announcing that the S7 was banned on his aeroplane, clearly an honest mistake, but the contagion to the whole range is sadly inevitable.

G-CPTN

18th Oct 2016, 13:43

I've been following this debacle carefully as both a pilot and a Note7 owner.
4 weeks on, 6 calls to Samsung, and still no idea how I will be able to replace my device (for example).
Samsung is setting up Note 7 exchange booths at airports around the world (http://www.theverge.com/2016/10/18/13314864/samsung-note-7-flying-safe-airport-exchanges).

XX621

18th Oct 2016, 13:53

That article says "..allow Note 7 owners to swap their phone for an unspecified exchange device".... when you've paid £750 for a smartphone an "unspecified exchange device" sounds a little vague...and it doesn't look like these booths are in many places yet (UK?). Sorry to sound a little cynical, but it seems like its a PR damage limitation stunt to me; but I'm now a grumpy customer of course!

KelvinD

18th Oct 2016, 14:52

XX621, Don't give up on the brand (I never thought I would find myself defending a brand of any sort!). I think their record up to this debacle has been pretty good. I don't know the numbers but it seems to me the incidents involving these phones is pretty low considering the number of phones sold. If you compare Samsung's handling of this compared to various models of car that get out there with latent defects and the record of the manufacturers dealing with these defects, there is no comparison. Look at how Vauxhall dealt with Zafira fires. Even a couple of years after customers, BBC Watchdog etc highlighted this, Vauxhall kept to their denials. Then they admitted there really was a problem, issued a recall to fix them and then had to issue a second recall shortly after that! Then there was the Ford Pinto scandal in the 70s with rather a lot of people killed by the known shortcomings with fuel tanks. So, balanced against that sort of thing, Samsung have reacted quite well.

XX621

18th Oct 2016, 15:22

True, all accepted. But the main perception issue of course is that they were sure the issue was purely isolated to the battery; when it now seems it's much more complicated. So questions are being raised with regard their engineering and QC processes. Personally my money is on a combination of issues; one of them being the fast charging and buggy implementation of the USB-C power specification (the Note7 is the first Samsung phone to use a USB-C socket).
Such a shame, it really is a great device.

G-CPTN

18th Oct 2016, 15:37

As someone who spent much of my working life investigating 'failures' of newly introduced products, it is extremely difficult to determine when you have covered all possibilities and when you decide that there is no further information (which might contradict your conclusion) to collect.

It is only when you can predictably reproduce the 'failure' (which, by its nature was intermittent) that you can begin to be complacent.

By the nature of these Note 7 events, it is unlikely that much can be determined from examination of the remains - even if the evidence can be recovered and returned for examination.

XX621

18th Oct 2016, 16:09

Agreed - and I've read that Samsung engineers have been unable to reproduce the failure. In my line of work, if you haven't reproduced the issue you haven't fixed the issue - so this leads to questions about the judgement surrounding the first recall in my mind if they hadn't reproduced the thermal runaways. My unit was (initially) deemed "safe" due to the battery manufacturer being ATL, and I've never seen the battery rise above 31degC even during fast charging. It must be a very specific set of swiss holes lining up to result in the failures observed, perhaps the owner(s) dropping the unit in a certain way could be one variable?
I note Samsung have said they will throw everything they have at identifying the fault and ensuring no repeat in their future products, but what if they fail to for possibly the reasons you outline (they give up to reproduce the fault)? The big burning (pun intended..) question in the battery industry is will they share the results of their investigation. I think they have no choice. Trust has been lost, they need to rebuild it, and transparency is a pre-requisite in the trust rebuild. They've already lost massive ground to Apple now and the new Google Pixel phone...I hope they pull it back from the brink; they were clearly leading Apple in terms of innovation (Apple have been on the back foot for a while now to Samsung imho).

horizon flyer

26th Oct 2016, 16:22

Being flamed for wondering if placing a battery in water was such a good idea without research I thought was logical. Being an electronics engineer with some experience in metal working I do know some metals will burn fiercely, powdered aluminium with an oxidiser is an explosive. So my question was answered cooling is needed and the conductivity of the water is not a factor. But Lithium ion batteries do have a history of thermal runaway when shorted. Sony found that out with its laptop batteries a few years ago and that was due to internal shorts plusTesla cars in crash situations do catch fire but other Lithium chemistries do not like LiFePO4 but not so compact. So I guess based on the information the battery becomes so hot that the plastics in the phone catches fire rather than the chemicals in the battery which go exothermic when shorted, so the only way to contain it is plunge it in water.

It would seem Samsung have not isolated the problem as yet, so how can they give out known good phones. With Sony the problem was micro shorts across an internal insulating membrane, believe solved by improvement in manufacturing control.

This smells of a similar problem, with a little in use mechanical stressing, bang. So Samsung may have pushed the internal limits to far to up the capacity.

Ian W

26th Oct 2016, 17:08

There is another possibility. Some third party software 'app' suppliers are selling 'fast charging' software. It may be that this software bypasses or disables built in protections in these phones and pushes the charging rate to an unsafe level. This could immediately cause problems or more likely after several cycles of charging and overheating then cooling. the stresses cause a failure and thermal runaway.

peekay4

27th Oct 2016, 15:14

Those "fast charging" apps do not increase charging rates or bypass protections in any way. They simply work by reducing consumption, e.g., by temporarily suspending background apps, disabling WiFi & Bluetooth, reducing the LCD brightness, etc.

The actual battery charging logic is managed by a dedicated IC that's hardwired for thermal regulation, over-voltage conditions, etc., and thus these protections cannot be removed via software.

lomapaseo

27th Oct 2016, 19:34

The actual battery charging logic is managed by a dedicated IC that's hardwired for thermal regulation, over-voltage conditions, etc., and thus these protections cannot be removed via software.

too bad they don't work so well

peekay4

27th Oct 2016, 23:46

These ICs actually work extremely well and are designed to remain safe in case of a failure (e.g, blowing an irreversible fuse if a problem is detected).

Plus modern battery system designs usually incorporate secondary over-voltage protections, and then layer in software protections on top that (such as charging timeouts).

In fact I've never heard of a widespread battery issue due to complete protection system failure. Not saying it can't or has never happened, but that it would be quite rare.

There are however many cheap products built without any protection ICs, or with inadequate or counterfeit ICs, etc. Many cheap e-cigarretes and so called "hoverboards" fall into this category. I've even seen protection devices on boards that's not connected to anything -- designed to fool casual inspection by customs officials, etc.

But assuming proper design, battery failure is more likely to be caused by a manufacturing defect inside the battery itself, or due to a physical damage of some sort, or due to some sort of misuse.