Qantas Recruitment

[Ollie Onion]

So all Jetstar pilots (and I assume all other group pilots) have just received a link for Expressions of Interest for Mainline jobs. I guess that Qantas must have worked their way through current holders of a Letter of Intent. Seems the recruitment wheels are moving slowly but surely.

[ANCDU]

It's good to see this happening but I think its more for the realisation that less people will be applying for mainline rather than the powers that be being generous.

Getting into Qantas used to be like winning the lottery, everyone's dream job, but things have changed a lot over the past 10 years, to an extent it's really just another airline here, as the "glory days" are gone. There is excitement over expansion and (finally!!) promotions but all it takes is another slowdown and the wheels come to a grinding halt ...and your stuck again. Who would really leave a high paying f/o gig at another airline to take a back seat on a 787 on reduced pay with the possibility of a long wait for promotion.

The people you work with are fantastic, the conditions are mostly better than other airlines in Australia, but the grass isn't probably that much greener than where people are already.

It will be interesting over the next few years to see how many people start here from group airlines, especially Jetstar. Let the good times continue, it's just hard to forget recent history.

[Left 270]

That was my first thought on reading, how many would actually want to go? I'm sure left and right seat guys at QLink would, but J*? I would have thought it would be only the junior FO's and even at that I'm sure many would be settled?

[dr dre]

Getting into Qantas used to be like winning the lottery, everyone's dream job, but things have changed a lot over the past 10 years, to an extent it's really just another airline here, as the "glory days" are gone.
Who would really leave a high paying f/o gig at another airline to take a back seat on a 787 on reduced pay with the possibility of a long wait for promotion


There have been some F/O's go from JQ to mainline in the past as well, plus Network this time around may generate some interest. It's probably just a corporate thing to advertise positions available within the group first before advertising them to the general public.
If you're referring to mainline not being able to attract interest from the wider pilot group, let me ask how many would leave a regional turboprop, or a charter company in a remote community to come to mainline? The mainstay of mainline recruitment in the past really hasn't been current jet F/O's. It's still higher paying than other cruise relief jobs and I would expect a flood of applications from regionals and GA (and probably a lot from overseas as well) when general external recruitment starts.

[Lookleft]

Its the lifestyle that will attract the F/O's out of Jetstar. They might be getting good money at the moment but they can't see a long term career in an airline where all you do is go to work, come home have dinner then go to bed to go to work again. Its why the LWOP pilots are voting with their feet and going back to be S/Os but only for a short time. Career wise your choices with mainline will be a lot more varied than with Jetstar and over the lifespan of your career the money will also be better. The selection process is not going to be a walk in the park though as one of the QF Cadets found out.

[DUXNUTZ]

I reckon it'll be on for young and old!

Qlink/Cobham/Network/Tiger/Deathstar/GA and possibly anyone well down the list at VAA.

[maggot]

It's good to see this happening but I think its more for the realisation that less people will be applying for mainline rather than the powers that be being generous.

Getting into Qantas used to be like winning the lottery, everyone's dream job, but things have changed a lot over the past 10 years, to an extent it's really just another airline here, as the "glory days" are gone. There is excitement over expansion and (finally!!) promotions but all it takes is another slowdown and the wheels come to a grinding halt ...and your stuck again. Who would really leave a high paying f/o gig at another airline to take a back seat on a 787 on reduced pay with the possibility of a long wait for promotion.

The people you work with are fantastic, the conditions are mostly better than other airlines in Australia, but the grass isn't probably that much greener than where people are already.

It will be interesting over the next few years to see how many people start here from group airlines, especially Jetstar. Let the good times continue, it's just hard to forget recent history.
How do you figure that? They haven't yet opened general (outside) recruitment.

And as mentioned, historically QF have recruited from regionals, GA, military and cadets, not other airlines. (Although there are some) it's a different world now but if you're sitting as a Jetstar FO wondering where things are going...

[Rhodes13]

I find it interesting that everyone says they've contacted all LOI holders. I'm looking at mine now from 08 and haven't heard a peep from QF.

Must have lost my contact details down the back of the sofa :(

[Keg]

It's good to see this happening but I think its more for the realisation that less people will be applying for mainline rather than the powers that be being generous.

I think you ever estimate the strategic thinking. The reality is that it's been QF group policy for a while now that all positions are advertised internally.

I think too this is to gauge the interest from the subsidiary airlines and its potential impact on them also. I suspect there will be some emails flying around to the regionals about the potential impact to their respective airlines.

I've not seen the EOI but are there restrictions on how long you've been with the respective subsidiary before you can apply? I reckon that one may creep in to ensure that the subsidiaries get a return on investment.

Rhodes, you're not alone. Make contact with them.

[noclue]

Keg

I think you'll find the policy has the word "should" in it. So it pretty much means nothing.

"From within first - internal employees SHOULD always be considered first for any opportunities, we have to support the career aspirations of our people"

[Mr Leslie Chow]

Well word on the street is that new recruits will have to do a few years at other qantas outfits such as QantasLink and efa etc before moving to mainline.

Should've been done like that before but anyway it is going to be busy. And anyone thinking a lot of guys in Virgin, Cathay, emirates and other jet jobs won't be keen is fooling themselves

Let the games begin!

[Keg]

They'd be ex cadets or LOI holders. No externals have been put through the application process. In fact the system isn't yet open to outside applications.

[Brakerider]

Do we have any idea what education & flying hours they will be looking for?

[Jetstarpilot]

Word on the street is a Charlie Q gig ain't what it used to be.... Jungle drums beating indicate a lack of interest..... People more than happy with work life balance and professional development opportunities here at the Star, Cobham, network, airlines of PNG, Airnorth, Bill Peach air tours etc etc...

QF will definitely struggle to get enough applicants. They'll need to get real and drop education requirements to year 10 equivalent and look at setting up flying school career tents (with free sausage sizzles)

[Keg]

Do we have any idea what education & flying hours they will be looking for?

I suspect they'll be similar or slightly higher than the regionals. I'd be very surprised if they dropped the education requirements from what they were previously.

I'm not sure what jungle drums Jetsarpilot is listening too but I guess time will tell.

[Lookleft]

Or what jungle juice he has been drinking Keg. Maybe Jetstarpilot had an LOI but now has a TBNT letter.

[maggot]

Word on the street is a Charlie Q gig ain't what it used to be.... Jungle drums beating indicate a lack of interest..... People more than happy with work life balance and professional development opportunities here at the Star, Cobham, network, airlines of PNG, Airnorth, Bill Peach air tours etc etc...

QF will definitely struggle to get enough applicants. They'll need to get real and drop education requirements to year 10 equivalent and look at setting up flying school career tents (with free sausage sizzles)
Cute as always and subtle as ever :)

[In the Soup]

People more than happy with work life balance and professional development opportunities here at the Star, Cobham, network, airlines of PNG, Airnorth, Bill Peach air tours etc etc...


Hey Bill Peach air tours I can understand, but airlines of PNG??

I recon it will be on for young and old.

["Littlebird"]

This is the thing...QF SO would no doubt be a good steady job. It really comes down to what you want, and will you have a seat when all the music stops. If Oz goes pearshape, and the market is flooded. Who will be more employable? An ex 787 SO or A320/B737 FO? Do your research. What do the fly in/outs, Asian/European carriers/agencies want? Unfortunately it's a different world out there now days, especially the aviation industry. Long term strategic planning is a must, as cool most probably won't stand the test of time.
L.B ;)

[Stationair8]

When the big Q recruits the applicants will come from Air North, Careflight, RFDS, Hinterland, Skippers, Toll, Hardy's, RAAF, GAM, Pearl, Network, Cobham, Coastwatch, our NZ cousins and every flying instructor in GA with a pulse.

Can't really see Qantas recruiting staff twiddling their thumbs hoping or waiting for applications to dribble in!

[ohfa]

Besides the recent ex cadets that have joined in the last couple of months and in the next couple of months, there has not been recruitment in mainline since early 2009...
Most if not all pilots in mainline are now over the age of 30.
If in the future you are successful in the selection process and join mainline, AND you are around the age of 25 or even less, think long term regarding your career.
Its all about seniority and potential opportunities. If you join in your mid twenties, chances are you could possibly be very senior in your mid forties with a seniority in the vicinity of top 300. That will mean captain on a fleet of your choice. Something for jetstar, efa, jetconnect, network, airlines of png, GA or any other company a 20 something year old is currently working for.
Yes the music may stop, One cannot predict what happens in aviation. We all know it works in cycles but from a long term point of view is there a better gig in Australian aviation?

[ANCDU]

I agree with you ohfa, if you are in your mid twenties and get in at the start of the recruitment wave it's a great career move, but what I am trying to convey is that is a limited pool of pilots these days in this demographic.. With the amount of other Airline jobs around Qantas isn't as attractive as it used to be, and the lower wage for new S/O's on the 787 is part of this.

At the start of the last big recruitment we had ansett fall over, and with it Kendall's and a variety of other small airlines. Every second new person you spoke to here seemed to be from one of them, and the only other option was Virgin Blue which was just starting. Fast forward to today a lot of pilots in their late 20's and thirties are already flying jet equipment on high wages as relative senior F/O's or even Captains. Many are happy with their lot, and don't see any gain in moving to Qantas and taking a demotion and reduced pay for an unspecified period of time.

Look at the posts here with Qlink using 457 visas, there just isn't the pool of pilots there used to be. I think they will get a huge amount of applicants of course, but not the numbers they got 10-15 years ago.

As I have stated before I would recommend to anyone to apply to work here, and it's fantastic to finally see some new faces about to start....it's like a grey hair convention here at the moment !!!

[Tankengine]

Look at the age demographic. Lots of young Captains in Virgin and Jetstar. Qantas has a much older average, even many First Officers will leave in the next ten years or so. About half the FOs I fly with are in their 50s.
Qantas Management always stuff up numbers in a cyclical way. Plenty are getting close to running out of hours, all leave gone etc.
This is likely to be a large recruitment, more 787s will be ordered eventually but over 100 new Pilots are needed for the current fleet without allowing for second officers on the 787.
I would think anyone in their 20s or 30s would do well to apply, I for one will be retiring early in a few years. ;)

[Lookleft]

Interesting point of clarification about the expressions of interest sent by a Manager further down the food chain than the CP. The EOI is only open for two weeks and it is not a guarantee of an interview.

[Keg]

Hawk Circle and others who are interested. These are excerpts of PMs that I have sent to people recently to answer questions about pay and progression.

First year pay is a little hard to calculate accurately as it depends a little on aircraft type, what our divisor (scheduled flying hours) is for each 8 week period and so on. There are slightly different increases year on year for each aircraft too.

As an absolute base minimum, as at 1 Jul 17 a 787 S/O will earn $105K. The 787 rates go up 2% a year for 4 years. The annual 3% pay rises we tend to get will be in addition to this 2% so effectively 5% a year for the first 4 years.

An A330 S/O in the first year will earn $95K. Based on current hours though the 330 S/O will earn an extra $10K- if not more. The S/O rate jumps up by 7% the first half of the 2nd year, and then another 16.5% in the second half of the second year then 3% a year after that. The annual 3% pay rises that we tend to get are on top of this so you're essentially getting a 6% pay rise each year after year 2.

Allowances will add a little bit on top of that- perhaps $15-20K depending on your trips and work rate.

The big unknown over the next few years is progression off the 787 or A330 as S/Os onto the 744 or A380. The overtime on both those fleets can add an additional 30-40%. Of course if the flying mix changes on those fleets- particularly the A380 then that could change things considerably.

If you want to get out of the back seat ASAP then the 737 is likely to be the only short term promotion available. The 737 has bases in all the state capitals around Australia except TAS and NT but don't expect to earn much more than you will be earning as a 5-6 year S/O on the 787 or A330.

Future progression? There are 400 pilots currently on long haul fleets (out of 1300 total) who hit 65 within the next decade- although only 100 or so in the next 5 years with 300 in the five years after that.

I have no visibility of demographics of the 600ish pilots on SH fleets. Anyone else? Is there a SH bid book equivalent?

Anyway, hope that assists.

[Chad Gates]

Thank you Keg. Just a clarification regarding 737 pay. You CAN earn significantly more on the 737 than an A330 (and presumably 787) S/O. Won't be much more than an A380 S/O, but that may change in the future once the 787 takes (again only an assumption) much of the lucrative flying.
The incentive payment is icing on the cake.

Just for clarification.
Its much better financially on the 737 than many realise.

Good luck to all, and I too don't think Qantas will have any trouble attracting suitable applicants.

[Keg]

Thanks Chad Gates. Been a long time since I've talked pay with a 737 F/O.

[SandyPalms]

Rumours around about more international flying for the A330. Increase in frequencies as well as a possible new destination. This will require 100 new recruits to that fleet.

[maggot]

Rumours around about more international flying for the A330. Increase in frequencies as well as a possible new destination. This will require 100 new recruits to that fleet.
Recruits needed for the current flying plan

[dr dre]

Rumours around about more international flying for the A330. Increase in frequencies as well as a possible new destination. This will require 100 new recruits to that fleet.
I think it's been said the first 100 new recruits will be going to the 330 before any are recruited onto the 787

[Keg]

Part of the question is what is happening to the 80 or so S/Os already on the A330. I don't reckon we need 180 of them on the 330 so some of them are obviously leaving the fleet in significant numbers between now and July. Curioser and curioser.

[Transition Layer]

Keg,

I've heard around 30 extra training slots to be announced this week, with the following residuals making a total of about 70. Obviously this will clean out some of the A330 S/O ranks, which in turn makes sense that they are boosting new pilot recruitment numbers.

If I was joining as an S/O now though, I'd forget about a sideways move to the 744 or 380 completely. It seems the guys there will need a crowbar to be prised away from the back seat of those machines!

As for 737 pay, I concur with Chad. With divisiors creeping up and bonus/incentive payments, many 737 F/Os are making $200k+.

Cheers

[brown_hornet]

Currently about 63 or so S/Os on the A330. We realistically need about 80 S/Os for the current flying, maybe a tad more with Melb to Narita starting back up. With only about 6 or 7 A330 S/Os due to leave in the training year (that'll change of course with the new vacancies to be advertised), the fact that they are/will be recruiting quite a large number straight onto the A330 suggests that they are happy to initially have an excess of S/O's on the A330 for a short while and as guys/gals leave in the next couple of years the numbers will sort themselves out, or they are planning on even more international flying for the 330. Brisbane-Seoul is a rumour I keep hearing as is a service back to Beijing.

[Keg]

I reckon it'll be a LOT more than 30 Transition Layer. Rumours suggest a few on the 744 and 20+ A330 commands and 20+ A330 F/O slots as well as potentially some 737 slots. With residuals to flow on from there it wouldn't surprise me if this 'half year' allocation is equally as big (or bigger) than the allocation published in June.

Either way, nice to be talking promotion and movement again rather than the dark days of 2009- 2015.

Completely forgot about the 737 bonus too! Handy little earner the last couple of years.

Heard a crazy rumour of a South Pacific island for the A330 too. I reckon Beijing will happen but possibly not until the 787 can release some capacity from elsewhere.

[maggot]

If only the 200s had a crew rest

And we had more crew

[Capt Kremin]

10-12 per month for "foreseeable future". Impeccable source.

[IsDon]

10-12 per month for "foreseeable future". Impeccable source.

Heard exactly the same.

Could be the same impeccable source.

Bring it on. :D

["Littlebird"]

Any timings for as to when and if applications will open to new externals? :O

[Tankengine]

If only the 200s had a crew rest

And we had more crew

I heard a couple may get a re-reconfig! :)
The look on one of our "leaders" face last year at the "no step" course when I pointed out that the 200 has bigger fuel tanks was priceless! I don't think anyone had told him. ;)

They do seem to be doing something about crew finally.

[maggot]

I heard a couple may get a re-reconfig! :)
The look on one of our "leaders" face last year at the "no step" course when I pointed out that the 200 has bigger fuel tanks was priceless! I don't think anyone had told him. ;)

They do seem to be doing something about crew finally.

Just not 7A

[-438]

Rumours of QF A330 also getting additional JQ 787 routes back. MEL-BKK & SYD-HNL.
Not sure what aircraft will cover the Perth routes when the A330s transfer to LH.
What will come of JQ 787 operation?

[IsDon]

Rumours of QF A330 also getting additional JQ 787 routes back. MEL-BKK & SYD-HNL.
Not sure what aircraft will cover the Perth routes when the A330s transfer to LH.
What will come of JQ 787 operation?

Logically, QF should operate ALL of the 787s. Economy's of scale, easier crewing, etc etc.....

Solves a lot of problems and also corrects what was a poor decision in giving them to JQ to begin with. :ugh:

[SandyPalms]

I've heard around 30 extra training slots to be announced this week

More than double that, before residuals in all categories. 30 Commands?

If only some of the internal rumours turn out to be even half true, it's looking good.
100 pilots on the current flying program is massive indicating that we are 100 pilots short now.
Vacancies in Qantas will in turn create vacancies at all the other Australian airlines (including Jetstar, there is no way no-one will jump ship), which is good for all. Now all we need is Virgin and Tiger to get their act together.

[moneytalk001]

G'day All...:8

Been working overseas for a while now, coming on 10yrs. Love to comeback home.
Looking at this rumour mill Big rat might start recruiting again.
What are the chances for say a 45yrs old over 8k TT , PIC on B738, doesn't have Aus ATPL yet(due new System part 61?!?):sad:, But do have Aus CPL/MCIR. Looking at either converting from current ATPL Lic or do the whole ATPL course?:}

[Keg]

10-12 per month for "foreseeable future". Impeccable source.

Probably a hiatus in December. They'd finish their induction and be trying to do EPs and so on over Christmas/ New Year. That'll never happen! :ok: January course and ongoing after that I reckon is a good bet. :cool: :D

[Ollie Onion]

Any rough estimates on the take home pay of an A330 SO with everything included. I have read he 250 page EBA and it is hard to get a good estimate with all of the add ins without having experienced how the pay is made up. Would it be closer to $100,000 or $150,000.

Cheers

[Keg]

Post 27 page 2 is the gross amounts. ATO website will assist with take home.

Closer to $100K with allowances on top.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Thank you for all the info Keg et al.

What are the "averages" for allowances and what are the average days away from home, sectors etc for the current fleet?

[maggot]

Good summation.
Good variety too is worth mentioning.
I'd view the 100k figure as a starting figure too but not too sure. Would be good for a current 330so to chime in - yearly pay scales.

[Keg]

These are the A330 S/O hourly pay rates for the first few years.

QAL LHP EA 2015 - Classifications and Pay Rates 1 Jul 17


S/O

Year A330

1 $88.91

2A* $95.15 (First 6 months of year 2)

2B** $111.17 (second six months of year 2).

3 $116.96

4 $120.40

5 $126.60

6 $130.05

Min guarantee is 1040 hours per year. You can add at least 30 hours to that with 4 sims, EPs, security, etc. Current divisor equates to 1170 per annum plus the extra hours for sims.

Allowances on top again.

If you want the 1 Jul 18 rate add 3%.

Current 330 S/Os are on the year 7 or maybe year 8 rate so they're going to be earning more than 35% more than a year 1 S/O.

[brown_hornet]

Rough figures only, expect first year gross around $95K, end of year 2 around $115K. On current divisors expect around $160-170K as a year 8 S/O plus allowances.Tops out at year 12, which would probably be another 5-10K. Not much overtime on 330, I average about 5 or so hours a roster (56 days), though some rosters virtually none. Currently work around 25 days a roster.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Thanks for all the detailed responses! :ok:

[donpizmeov]

I still reckon QF would have the best working conditions on the planet at the moment. Good to see some movement.

[OnceBitten]

Totally agree Don! :ok:

[Angle of Attack]

Minimum 200k up to 250k per year for 737 F/O's during Last couple of years. Captains 300-400k on the 737. Fact. Long haul types tend to underestimate Shorthaul Award massively. It's all about me, while we clean up. Fact, I have grossed 75k in the first 3 months of this financial year. Take away the bonus 58k. That's still pointing to 232k next financial year as an F/O minus the bonus. Including bonus I'm looking at 255k for the year, as an F/O. There are a few high hour Captains looking at 430k. And that is with no back of the clock flying. It's absolute gold, so I say go for it, especially if you detest back of the clock long haul crap.

[Capt Fathom]

So humble! :rolleyes:

[Beer Baron]

Well AoA you must be picking up a stack of extra hours per month.
For the uninitiated, you would not earn that sort of coin just working divisor, you must put your hand up for extra work and consequently less days off.
Not disputing the figures, it's certainly possible to earn that much as a 737 F/O but that would be at the upper end of the spectrum, not the average.

[Left 270]

If that's what the NB left seat is getting, I don't think I want to know what the WB rate is!

[ruprecht]

Well it's good to know I've got something to look forward to if the A380 cuts back to routes with no overtime...

Promotion to the 737!:E

[Angle of Attack]

My last 365 days is 730 stick hours, not excessive.

[donpizmeov]

730hrs in a 1930s tech aeroplane is a very good effort. With more hours can you get onto something modern?

[Angle of Attack]

Beer Baron, No it's average at the moment. You must be long haul?

[Chad Gates]

The only thing that makes the 738 the same as the 1967 version is that it's got 737 painted on the side 😊

[Rosso Noche]

My last 365 days is 730 stick hours, not excessive.

Year 4 F/O hourly rate (max hourly rate) ATM is $188.93.

So 58K in 3 months is about 290 stick hours (give or take with passive and paxing credits, allowances etc).

Your 730 hours a year looks more like this:

$188.93 X 730 = $137,918.90
6 weeks leave = $15,913.72
6 training events = $4,534.32
Total is $158,366.94

So for your minimum of 200K a year you need to make up a 42K defecit with allowances, paxing credits (unlikely) and bonus (not guaranteed)....... or HOURS. (Unless you are including company super contributions in your total - that bumps it up a little).

Based on your 58K in 3 months and from my own experience 90-100hrs a month should get you there.

So yes over 200K is achievable, doing about 90 hours month in month out which is approx 500 sectors a year and 8 -9 days off every month and constantly chasing work/putting name in the book. IMHO the LH award gives you time off and guaranteed money and despite the jet lag is a better lifestyle option unless you're happy with the less hours (money) to get the time off in SH.

Edit: I should add, my last full year SH my bonus was paid at 1100 credit hours. Based on current hourly rates that's about 240-250K ( inclusive - allowances, passive and paxing credits and possible bonus but not super) a year but you work for it.

[Transition Layer]

You're forgetting one thing chaps...credit hours and actual stick hours on the 737 can be very different things :} ;)

[Chad Gates]

Days at work?

But it's not true that you work more days in SH. If you like day trips, you may "go to" work more days, sure, but you'll probably be finished by lunch time or, if it's your fancy, not go to work until 2 or 3 in the afternoon and be home to watch the end of that boring English crime drama your wife is watching on Netflix.

Or if your not into day trips and want multi day trips. At the top, you will get your 70 hours done in 9 or 10 days. At the bottom it might be 16. On average you'll actually work the same number of days in SH and LH. It's the length of the trip, and by consequence the length of the break in between trips that changes.

I agree LH is a better lifestyle if your worried about money, as it a guaranteed amount and won't reduce (more or less).

My average last year was 77 hours/ BP and I worked an average of 14.5 days/BP.

[Cessna Jockey]

Well seeing as we are all comparing, the last I measured I'm 2.5 inches flaccid and 6.2 inches when erect.

What's that you say? No one wants to hear about my personal sh*t?

Precisely.

[Chad Gates]

If the info is unhelpful to you. Ignore it.

[IsDon]

Well seeing as we are all comparing, the last I measured I'm 2.5 inches flaccid and 6.2 inches when erect.

Precisely.

And I'll wager that extra 0.2" is vitally important.

What did you measure it with? A laser?

Q. Hey mods, why won't PPRuNe let me use the word L A S ER without putting an '@' where the 'a' should be? Maybe it's an iPhone thing, but it's happening on the full site as well as the mobile site.

[skysook]

So it turns out earning all that money and flying big shiny jets doesn't make your wang any bigger afterall. Appreciate the facts gentlemen, but can we get back on topic? This is a rumour network afterall and I've heard a solid one that recruitment is all internal for the foreseeable future. Can anyone verify this?

[Going Boeing]

The B747 fleet is currently short of S/O's and with some about to leave for F/O training on B737 & A330 fleets, the shortage is going to be critical. Some of the new hires may end up going Boeing instead of Airbus.

The only thing that makes the 738 the same as the 1967 version is that it's got 737 painted on the side

What about the overhead panel on the B738, Chad? It's so ancient, it belongs in a museum.

[Density]

All I am hearing is:

MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY

Tell me. Do your wives feel lonely at night? Do your children miss you? When bowel cancer grabs you at 66 (I see the Vale posts on Qrewroom - it will get you and quickly seems to be the theme. No doubt assisted by sucking air from those diesel powered fans for 40 years, not been able to crap when you want, solar radiation and the salt content in Neil Perry's ponytail garnished crew meals spurred on by your Martin Grant designed slim fit girdle... anyway I digress)/... will you regret having been away so much from your loved ones and will you regret those 26 RDO call outs in a year, or phoning Crewing to snag that double divisor trip in Open Time)??

MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY GIMME GIMME MONEY MORE MORE MONEY MONEY GIVE TO THE DIVORCE LAWYER MONEY MONEY MORE MORE

Typical Australian pilot mentality. F** embarrassment. Humble my ar$e.

Agreed....hell of alot more to life than $.

[SandyPalms]

The B747 fleet is currently short of S/O's and with some about to leave for F/O training on B737 & A330 fleets, the shortage is going to be critical. Some of the new hires may end up going Boeing instead of Airbus

I'd heard that new hires will all start on the A330, as that is the intent of the EA, allowing A330 SO's to move up to the B747 or A380.

[Chad Gates]

Going Boeing.

True. But they are only switches.

[27/09]

$200,000 as a 737 FO? !!!!!!

F**k me. You guys must be among the best paid pilots in the world outside of places where no one wants to live.

[ruprecht]

$200,000 as a 737 FO? !!!!!!

F**k me. You guys must be among the best paid pilots in the world outside of places where no one wants to live.

It's compensation for the stupid hat...

[Berealgetreal]

Angle of Attack, thanks for posting some of your figures. Whilst to some it may come across as an appendage comp to some, to others it's very useful in order to compare the TC's in their respective outfit.

NARROW BODY Q's:
Can I ask, are allowances on top of that? Say 15k cash?
How many days at home per 28 days are you getting?
I assume you'd be clearing about 10-11k a month.
How much duty per month/annum or stick per year?

The issue for me, as someone has already pointed out, is the starting wage on the 330/787 looks to be around a 100k so it's a bit of a haircut to come across to say the least. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that just about every other aspect of your company is far superior to any I know of. I've been reading up and talking to people and its eye opening.


WIDEBODY Q's:
Is it fair to say that if you are on the 330 you are away a lot (no day trips)?
How does it work? Two big trips a month or multiple small trips?
How many days at home?
Will a new-hire sit on reserve or what you call a "blank line" in Sydney the whole time?
When will recruitment to 330 stop and become 787 recruitment?
So a first year so gets 100, could you expect overtime and allowances on top and if so how much? How much would a new hire be clearing?

Anyway lots of questions thanks in advance for any responses.

[ilikecheese]

So it turns out earning all that money and flying big shiny jets doesn't make your wang any bigger afterall. Appreciate the facts gentlemen, but can we get back on topic? This is a rumour network afterall and I've heard a solid one that recruitment is all internal for the foreseeable future. Can anyone verify this?
It will be interesting to see if recruitment is exclusively for group pilots initially? Is anyone in the know? I can imagine there'd be a lot of interested parties from within the group, but release from current employer would be subject to operational requirements. Will they need more pilots from outside to slow the group attrition? Or am I completely overestimating the amount of interest from inside? The email was only seeking an EOI, so recruitment could very well be open to the broader community when it does kick off. Great to see progression to mainline from the broader group!

[MACH082]

Or the fact qantas have some of the most experienced FOs in the world. Sitting there for 15-20 years does that.

In other parts of the world a narrow body jet is doing your time until you get to fly a real one. Which you may find yourself doing with a couple of thousand hours TT.

[ohfa]

Is there an issue with mainline 737 fo's being paid around 200k plus?

Yes the stick hours are up at the moment but the Qantas group has made a record profit and a significant portion of that was thanks to Qantas domestic.

We pilots are a funny breed! Was not that long ago that it seemed other entities within the 'group' who were working 90 hours stick a month deemed not paid enough, but now when we hear the earnings of mainline under the 'short haul' contract illustrated, there seems to be a thought of.....s$it that's seems a lot....

I think its great that thes pilots earn that amount, may it continue

[AviatoR21]

So it begins! It's finally open.

[Keg]

Website now has details (http://www.qantas.com/travel/airlines/careers-pilot-qfdirect/global/en#minimum-requirements) of min requirements, etc.

There is a link to register your interest but direct entry S/O doesn't yet appear. I suspect it will appear on Monday morning as those jobs often have date restrictions on the back end as to when they open and close. Seems to be the website has gone live and the EOI hasn't quite opened yet.

Passes in English and one or more of: Mathematics; Physics; Chemistry; at a level equivalent to NSW Higher School Certificate (HSC) level 4 or Awarded a Bachelor's degree in a relevant discipline in Aviation, Science, Maths or Engineering.
Level 6 English proficiency (Expert)
Australian citizen or Hold Australian Permanent Residency Status
Hold a current passport with unrestricted access to all Qantas ports of call with at least 12 months validity
Hold an Australian Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence, or Passed the Aeronautical Knowledge Examination for the Australian Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence.
Hold a Part 61 Multi Engine Aeroplane Class Instrument Rating (excluding a Private Instrument Rating)
Hold endorsements for IAP 2D and IAP 3D on Australian (Civil) Instrument rating.
Hold a current Instrument Proficiency Check (MEA)
500 hours in Command of a powered fixed wing aeroplane (excluding hours in Command
Under Supervision), or 300 hours in Command of a multi engine aeroplane (excluding hours In Command Under Supervision), or 250 hours in Command of a powered fixed wing aeroplane and 1000 hours as Co-Pilot of a multi crew, multi engine turbine aeroplane (excluding hours In Command Under Supervision), or 250 hours in Command of a powered fixed wing aeroplane (of which up to 100 hours may be In Command Under Supervision) and 1500 hours as Co-Pilot of a multi crew turbine aeroplane or 250 Hours in Command of a powered fixed wing aeroplane and 500 hours in Command of rotary wing aircraft (excluding hours In Command Under Supervision)
Hold a current CASA Class 1 Medical Certificate

[morno]

Why do they insist on those educational requirements? Do they honestly think that it makes a better pilot?

I'm past the point where I'd want to fly for Qantas, but going by those requirements, my >10 years industry experience and thousands of hours in turboprops and jets is useless because I didn't get a pass in a few subjects at school and didn't need a degree?

Outdated indeed.

morno

[pilotchute]

Morno

It's just a filter. Imagine how many thousands more applications they would get if it was just yr10?

Why does Tiger insist on a full Atpl when Virgin doesn't?

[*Lancer*]

Passing high school isn't really an outdated requirement morno!

[dr dre]

Apart from acting as a filter it's also a way to show determination. If you really wanted to fly for QF but didn't have the educational requirements then doing a year 12 Maths/Physics bridging course is a way to show your desire for the role. Don't complain if you don't, plenty of people who didn't meet the educational requirements in the past have been proactive and completed bridging courses in order to meet the minimum standards.

And let's be honest, almost all other professions these days require a degree (and many graduates aren't getting far in their careers in a lot of areas unless they have done post graduate study) so for a position with such a high level of responsibility a year 12 education should be an ABSOLUTE minimum.

[Iron Bar]

Steve Holding very good for Maths / Physics bridging course.

[ExtraShot]

Moron,

It's just a filter.

that it is… Morno.




Oh, for those asking about first year pay, don't forget you have a training wage of around 800 odd bucks a week for the first 3-6 months. So for those first year figures of 'around 100k', they'd be after being Cleared to the line.

[Livin]

I agree with you morno.
If I had of completed year 12 it would've been 27 years ago, how would that be relevant now? I would like to think my recent achievements, work history and experience would hold more weight than what I did in school so long ago.

[bangbounceboeing]

Is a post grad masters degree equivalent of a Batchelors degree ?

[galdian]

QF is a seniority airline.

Expectations are that new external joiners will join at the bottom.

Previous experience is largely, if not totally, irrelevant except to decide whether you may get a shot at QF when they take externals....or not.

They set the experience criteria - and provide info as to how their minimums may be achieved in some areas.

If you are really aggrieved at their minimums/requirements etc then simply don't apply....sure THAT will fix 'em!! ;)

Cheers all.

[Metro man]

Looks like the bench mark in pilot pay has moved up a notch or two, and may result in better deals for those lower down the food chain. Improved conditions may be in order to retain current employees as a pilot joining QF pulls up a chain of people behind him.

It would be nice to meet up for a beer with the pilot who got your turboprop job and the one who got his piston twin job and the one who got his first job on a 206 in the Kimberley, all because you landed an airline job. Drinks on them.

[morno]

I agree with you morno.
If I had of completed year 12 it would've been 27 years ago, how would that be relevant now? I would like to think my recent achievements, work history and experience would hold more weight than what I did in school so long ago.

My point exactly. How is how I performed as a 17 year old any reflection on my professional career now many years and thousands of hours later?

Lancer,
I never said passing year 12 was an outdated requirement. What I said was why are they insisting that guys who are 30+ years old who have been in the industry for years (and so far I haven't fallen out of the sky because I spent most of my maths classes bludging), have this ridiculous requirement to have the education level of a 17 year old?

As I said, I'm not even wanting to apply to Qantas (I see much better avenues overseas!), I just find it ridiculous that they still want that stuff.

morno

[clear to land]

Maybe its the demographic they are after-without obvious discrimination!. They want under 30's with limited experience but who will give them a longer return on investment. In a Seniority based airline such as Qf, experience itself has zero value due to the nature of the system combined with the internal belief that they know better, so any previous experience is without value. It also works for the company rather than the workforce as it creates a captive pilot market, except for the few lucky enough to have timing that allows LWOP so they can go and gain some actual real world experience in far more challenging environments. If experience was valued a new hire with experience would expect a window seat similar to what BA does, whilst the inexperienced would start as S/O's.

[MACH082]

The reason for the minimas is to weed out the unsuitable.

To make it in this game you need to put the work in and continue to do so. The minimas merely reflect this. By meeting them, you demonstrate that you can study and put the work in that is required of an airline like qantas. Doing one TR is hard work on a jet. You'll probably do several in your first decade, then fly a new type for command.

The company doesn't want to waste resources on somebody who could be a bad investment.

[lee_apromise]

Hold an Australian Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence, or Passed the Aeronautical Knowledge Examination for the Australian Air Transport Pilot (Aeroplane) Licence.

Just got curious about "Passed the Aeronautical Knowledge Examination for the Australian ATPL".

I know the traditional route is CASA CPL/MEIR + 7 ATPL written tests. However, for those in possession of ICAO ATPL, they are only required to complete only 2 written tests (AOSA and AHUF) provided they hold CASA MEIR for the purpose of CASA ATPL issuance..

Will QF accept CASA CPL/MEIR with ICAO ATPL + AOSA/AHUF passes?

[Keg]

Will QF accept CASA CPL/MEIR with ICAO ATPL + AOSA/AHUF passes?

Does that mean you hold an Aussie ATPL? If you don't then I'd suggest the answer is going to be 'no'.

Qantas used to require passes in Aussie ATPL subjects irrespective of whether you had converted an ATPL from o/s or not. The way I rea the requirement now is that if you've converted to an Aussie ATPL then that's enough and you don't need the subjects. If you don't hold an Aussie ATPL then you need passes in the Aussie ATPL subjects.

Seems pretty clear really?

[Keg]

I'll have a go at some of these.



NARROW BODY Q's:
Can I ask, are allowances on top of that? Say 15k cash?
How many days at home per 28 days are you getting?
I assume you'd be clearing about 10-11k a month.
How much duty per month/annum or stick per year?


Not sure re allowances or pay. Someone else can cover that.
Depends on where you are in the rotation. I've heard of those at the top,only working as little as 9-10. They're big days no doubt. Those at the bottom can work 18- 19. Rotation is 13 months I think.
Stick is well north of 750. I've heard of some crew pushing north of 900. More stick= more $$$.


Note. I'm not a SH pilot and never have been. I've worked on the LH award for nearly 22 years.


WIDEBODY Q's:
Is it fair to say that if you are on the 330 you are away a lot (no day trips)?
How does it work? Two big trips a month or multiple small trips?
How many days at home?
Will a new-hire sit on reserve or what you call a "blank line" in Sydney the whole time?
When will recruitment to 330 stop and become 787 recruitment?
So a first year so gets 100, could you expect overtime and allowances on top and if so how much? How much would a new hire be clearing?


There are zero day trips as a S/O. Plenty for Captains and F/Os.
How many trips depends on the fleet and your seniority in it. A330 trip length for S/Os varies from 3 days to 9 days at the moment.
S/O trips tend to be a bit more dense so normally at least half days at home.
New hires are likely to do one full roster, then a blank line (8 weeks) of reserve and then it'll be 12-18 months before they're on reserve again. I'd be very surprised if there was much sitting around on it given the shortage at the moment.
Recruitment to the 787 is likely May(ish) next year at the earliest. Approx first 100 new joiners go to the A330.
Pay figures including allowances were mentioned a couple of pages back. There will be a bit of overtime on top but not huge and not worth budgeting for. If shortage continues it could be more. If it eases so will the additional $$$. If you work on $100K into the ATO rates and divide by 26 that will be what you clear. Allowances are essentially tax free on top.

Hope that helps.

[Transition Layer]

Originally Posted by Berealgetreal

NARROW BODY Q's:
Can I ask, are allowances on top of that? Say 15k cash?
How many days at home per 28 days are you getting?
I assume you'd be clearing about 10-11k a month.
How much duty per month/annum or stick per year?

$15k in allowances is about right. Single day trip allowances are taxed, multi day trips tax free. Depending on what sort of flying you do, I'd work on about half of the $15k being tax free. It's not shown separately on our group certificates anymore so hard to work out a yearly amount without adding up individual payslips.

Minimum 10 days per 28 at home, but if you're at the top of the bidding rotation and doing high density flying you can be home for closer to 18/28 and only work 9-10 as Keg said. You can also elect to work on those extra days off for extra $

$10k clear/month is about right for 1st year F/O, can give more accurate numbers if you need them from the EBA.

I've averaged a little under 800hrs stick a year in the past 5 years.

Cheers

[CaptCloudbuster]

I failed Maths /Physics at school.

Getting a job in QF was my ultimate professional dream. I enjoyed the road there,,,, Cape York bush pilot then Regional Turboprop. What I yearned for though was financial security, to fly well maintained equipment, to be trained by some of the best in the Profession, an opportunity to contribute to a proud 90 year history, an Australian Capital City base to finally put down roots, finally be able to commit fully to finding love, get married and live happily ever after. Happy to report 20 years later I still thank my younger self for having the drive, dream, tenacity and courage to put in the hard (but enjoyable nevertheless) yards. It's been all I hoped for.

Whilst others bitched and moaned or partied their young days away I did Steve Holdings Maths over a 4 week annual holiday and completed a Physics bridging course with Rocky Uni via correspondence. I consciously surrounded myself with like minded individuals with positive outlooks and goals.

My personal motto was (borrowed from the World Cup winning Wallabies of the day)

"Long after the pain is forgotten - the quality remains"

A job in QF doesn't come easy. QF wants highly motivated self starting individuals.

Can't be bothered doing everything it takes to get a shot at the title?

(You can't say you haven't had enough time to get everything organised)

You're not what QF is looking for then IMHO.

[EY_Airbus]

QF wants highly motivated self starting individuals.

Hold a current CASA Class 1 Medical Certificate

So how does a highly motivated Aussie individual stuck in the sandpit with a current GCAA medical apply for this position? :ugh:

[CaptCloudbuster]

I don't know.

You're the one with the incentive to find out.

Have you taken the first step and called / contacted the appropriate individuals in CASA / QF to ascertain an answer?

My younger self without hesitation would have booked an Avmed exam online and flew to Aus on days off to tick the box after confirming this was the only option available.

[dr dre]

So how does a highly motivated Aussie individual stuck in the sandpit with a current GCAA medical apply for this position? :ugh:

Motivated enough to check the CASA website? ;)

Designated Aviation Medical Examiners - Overseas (http://services.casa.gov.au/avmed/dame_search/damedisplay.asp?type=DAME&Location=Overseas#30)

[increase.descent]

Keg,

I don't think lee_apromise's query is that clear cut, I have had the same one for a few months.

Holding a CASA CPL MEIR and the 7 ATPL conversion exam credits leaves you with the flight test to sit to obtain the license.

Holding a foreign ATPL MEIR and the 2 ATPL foreign conversion exam credits also leaves you with the flight test to sit to obtain the license.

Two candidates with either qualifications are in same position with respect to obtaining their ATPL when time permits.

Now I understand there is a difference in theory content between the two avenues - not necessarily lesser - just different, depending on which overseas ATPL syllabus you have completed.

The QF website now only states passed the 'ATPL aeronautical knowledge examination' or similar words. This leaves is open to interpretation as to what theory credits are acceptable.

I have queried a number of other major Aussie carriers recruitment departments and their reply has generally been, 'apply and we will consider your application on an individual basis'. Not so clear cut.

It would be great if someone has a definitive answer or has an experience to share regarding this?

[lee_apromise]

Holding a CASA CPL MEIR and the 7 ATPL conversion exam credits leaves you with the flight test to sit to obtain the license.

Holding a foreign ATPL MEIR and the 2 ATPL foreign conversion exam credits also leaves you with the flight test to sit to obtain the license.

Two candidates with either qualifications are in same position with respect to obtaining their ATPL when time permits.

That's what I meant. The wording on QF recruitment website is vague enough for different interpretation.

Just to be clear, to be in the same boat as traditional CASA CPL/MEIR + 7 ATPL subjects, ICAO ATPL holder must have CASA CPL with MEIR with passes in AOSA and AHUF.

When does QF S/O receive ATPL flight test? Is it done concurrently with their type rating if one meets Part 61 ATPL minimum flight experience?

I emailed QF and am waiting for their reply. It would be nice to know a definitive answer for Australians working in overseas with ICAO ATPL for future reference.

[SandyPalms]

I don't think QF do your ATPL flight test. Anyone?

[EY_Airbus]

I don't know.

You're the one with the incentive to find out.

Have you taken the first step and called / contacted the appropriate individuals in CASA / QF to ascertain an answer?

My younger self without hesitation would have booked an Avmed exam online and flew to Aus on days off to tick the box after confirming this was the only option available.

Whoa......saw the expression of interest thing late Friday...it's now the weekend....QF or CASA surely not opened on the weekend. Thought I'd give myself a head start by asking on here first. Thanks anyways for the answer

[motley flight crue]

I'm applying. EK 777 captain. My mates are too.....

[OnceBitten]

Motley,

It would be great to see many of you back here.
Lifestyle is great, money is good, not doing 100+ stick hours, no back of the clock night returns to the sub continent, no armed escorts to your hotel to/from some airports, and you will have a life expectancy past 60years old.

Good luck with the application! :ok:

[increase.descent]

Happy to be corrected, but don't believe any regulatory sims/checks conducted in QF can be counted as an ATPL flight test. It needs to be done off your own back.
If you are working overseas, its not as simple as some make it sound, esp. if your test needs to take place in one of the heavy jet sims.

A mute point, but can anyone shed light on QF staff travel policy / benefits?

[EY_Airbus]

I'm applying. EK 777 captain. My mates are too.....

Hey Motley check your PM

[Tankengine]

Qantas will do the flight test for ATPL when they require one for your promotion course. Longhaul F/O or Shorthaul Command if you have not already got one.

[Keg]

Ok. Thanks for the clarification re the issues WRT the Aussie ATPL. If someone can PM me a synopsis I'll cut and paste it,top and tail it and try and get a definitive answer.

Further, on Friday and this morning the link that says register your EOI doesn't yet show up Trainee S/O when you search it. The intent was to not go live for external applicants until later this coming week. In the mean time the website was updated with current information and was supposed to say to expect the EOIs to open soon. The link was added before the vacancies have been 'opened' in the Taleo job site.

Expect it after Wednesday. I'll update more when I know.

[bangbounceboeing]

Sorry to ask the same question twice but would a post grad Masters degree in a science related subject cover the education requirement without the Bachelor degree?

[V-Jet]

Sorry to ask the same question twice but would a post grad Masters degree in a science related subject cover the education requirement without the Batchelor degree?

Probably wouldn't get through HR. Sorry to disappoint...

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Sorry to ask the same question twice but would a post grad Masters degree in a science related subject cover the education requirement without the Batchelor degree?

I agree with V-jet, merely for the fact you repeatedly spelled "Bachelor" incorrectly.

[clear to land]

On the bright side, for those who leave EK to QF-be it the LWOP guys or experienced Captains, at least there will actually be some international experience in the cockpit again on a QF flight, something that has been sadly lacking in QF since it withdrew from most international routes. :}

[SandyPalms]

On the bright side, for those who leave EK to QF-be it the LWOP guys or experienced Captains, at least there will actually be some international experience in the cockpit again on a QF flight, something that has been sadly lacking in QF since it withdrew from most international routes.

QF flight decks have plenty of international experience.

[OnceBitten]

C2L,

It's a bit of a cheap shot to disparage QF crew because they may not have the network that you enjoy, if it was left to the crew we would be going to every point on the planet, but unlike some other operators owners who think their fleet size is an extension of their appendage, we, as a publically listed company have to be responsible to the multitude of share holders and i guess at this point of time unlimited international destinations isn't a viable proposition.

Oh, and Good luck with getting your dogs home.
http://www.snoopypets.com

[Fuel-Off]

Pilots. What a unique breed we are. Only pilots can turn a positive subject about more jobs for all into pork ruler measuring exercise.

How is it that YOU, as so-called professional pilots be charged with the carriage of hundreds of paying customers (including members of my family) and PAID to not rush decisions, make such awful, flippant, quick-to-judge comments to your fellow colleagues (under the guise of so-called wit?).

And you wonder why pilots are losing professional credibility these days? You only have yourselves to blame.

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Density]

Anyone have any idea as to when it is likely that interviews etc might be offered to EOI?

[Density]

Username: This is is just my own personal opinion without any substantiation however I would be very surprised if Qantas would look at your application unless you have served x amount of time with x subsidiary. I would imagine that mainline would want to best serve those that have provided some service to the company first and foremost.

[atlas12]

I was going to throw an application in and see what comes of it. Not too keen on taking a back seat for x years (feel a bit over qualified for that now), but the job security is very appealing.

Good luck to all :ok:

[Capt Fathom]

feel a bit over qualified for that now
Be sure to mention that during the interview. :E

["Littlebird"]

Atlas12 - if that's the way you feel then I would say trust this. You could always apply to be an SO at a later stage.
A couple of mates flying 737's in NZ for the past 18 months are now flying the 787 as FO's with Norwegian Air and love it! That's only one example. All the best with your decision.
L.B

[Popgun]

You could always apply to be an SO at a later stage.

If you 'think' you might be interested in the QF gig you would be best to apply sooner rather than later. Your professional life will be ruled by your seniority number. Nobody ever wished they were more junior in this game!

Unless you're already in the left seat of an Australian jet (or very close to it) or over about 35-40 years old then you could do worse than a QF SO position.

Anyone going for this position, however, needs to play the long game.

Patience and time invested should reward handsomely one day (as long as you are young enough to be able to afford the wait!) and you will enjoy an extremely enviable lifestyle (think above-industry-average amounts of time off) along the way!

["Littlebird"]

Ok this is the thing...If you think you might want the job, not sure, etc, you are sitting on the fence undecided, and this will without a doubt be conveyed in the psych and interview process.
I've seen many good potential applicants miss out over the years.

One shot one kill...L.B :cool:

[lee_apromise]

Unless you're already in the left seat of an Australian jet (or very close to it) or over about 35-40 years old then you could do worse than a QF SO position.

What is the general consensus for the optimum age for new QF SO?

Early 20s? Mid 20s? Late 20s? Early 30s?

Somebody with uni degree, some work experience, flight training and some overseas work experience who missed 2008 recruitment must be in late 20s now. 28 too late?

Certainly, younger the better but what is the maximum age you guys consider for a new QF SO to be appropriate?

[SixDemonBag]

In the last 'drive' there was at least one guy well into his 50's. hard to quantify a perfect age.

[Omega471]

In the last 'drive' there was at least one guy well into his 50's. hard to quantify a perfect age.

"Late" to the industry and loving it!!! Was worried about my age, but will NEVER die wondering. Surely SO on an A330 has to be better than piston twins!!!

My career goal is to finish with more command than co-pilot.

[Falling Leaf]

My career goal is to finish with more command than co-pilot.

My career goal is to earn the most amount of money for the least amount of work (stress). :8

[Popgun]

What is the general consensus for the optimum age for new QF SO?

Early 20s? Mid 20s? Late 20s? Early 30s?

Somebody with uni degree, some work experience, flight training and some overseas work experience who missed 2008 recruitment must be in late 20s now. 28 too late?

Certainly, younger the better but what is the maximum age you guys consider for a new QF SO to be appropriate?

That's a question that doesn't really have one answer. An intermediate answer would be, "it depends".

It is mainly dependent on who you fly for and what you get paid now as well as what level of importance you place on factors such as pay, conditions, job security, promotion prospects, type of flying etc etc.

From a pure remuneration perspective, if you are earning significantly more in your current job than you'll earn as a QF SO then you need to make a calculation (based on rubbery assumptions) as to how long it might be before you make up the lost earnings and begin to overtake. Is it likely or possible that it will be 2, 5, 10 or even 20 years before you make up the deficit? Know one can predict seniority list progression with certainty so there will always be an element of risk in the assumptions made.

Or, you mightn't even care too much about the remuneration and have decided, for instance, that constant 4 sector days (think JQ A320 Ops), regional flying (think Rex), GA, the Military or a life in the sand (EK, EY, QR) is not for you long term.

Horses for courses. Everyone will have different motivations and goals (career as well as life) but 28 is certainly not too late. 35 is not too late either depending on what you're giving up to go to QF. And of course even 60 is not too old if you're just happy to have a relatively well-paid, low-stress, cushy job to see you out until you hang up your wings!

No one, simple, easy answer unfortunately.

Good luck!

PG

[flitegirl]

Lee,

I have two friends who joined in the 2008 recruitment, both were 30 at the time.

[Keg]

There is an email address on the website. If you're military and don't meet the specifics then it's worth asking the question. I'm pretty sure the intent isn't to exclude MIL crew who may not have MEA on their licenses.

[*Lancer*]

It doesn't state that the current Instrument Proficiency Check MEA needs to be on the Australian licence.

[EY_Airbus]

It does now.
Does it? I see they have just added a link for clarification on the minimum requirements, but it still does not specify that the current IPC MEA needs to be on the Australian licence. If it does, then this rules out all Aussies currently flying in airlines overseas (unless you are willing to perhaps spend a few $'000s for a renewal in a simulator ) which probably is not the intent.

[Falling Leaf]

So when I go onto the website, there is no link to actually apply. Is the EOI closed already?

[atlas12]

I think so, I couldn't find it either.

[ReBjorn]

Link has disappeared, but no SO job was ever in the Careers section it directed you to.
Assuming someone uploaded the new page a little early, as from what I hear internal group applications are still open.

[Keg]

Close to the mark. I did speak to the HR manager on Sunday and let them know the link was live but no jobs were actually showing in the job search. The link was never supposed to go live until the jobs actually opened in the Taleo site.

Early next week was the time frame I was given but that was also subject to change.

[Stardoggas]

Yeah it was hinted to being "maybe in the coming weeks"

[zanthrus]

Maybe QANTAS should sack the HR department for incompetency?
Would free up loads of cash to employ useful employees like.... I dunno Pilots?

[Keg]

OK. An update.
The link should go live again this afternoon.

My information is that it will only be open for 10 days. That means it closes 17 Oct. Of course it will open again at some stage but my guess is depending on demand that may not be until next year.

I also understand that it will NOT be advertised in the Australian (given today's is out already and next Friday doesn't allow much time) but will be on LinkedIn. So if you know of people in the outback who don't have much access to the Internet please give them a call and let them know that they'll need to hustle.

My guess for start dates is February although there could be a couple of earlier placements in January depending on how it plays out with ex cadets being released from their respective group subsidiaries.

Good luck with the process. Remember to 'just keep swimming'. :ok:

[Johnny_56]

Hope their servers are in order. Might be a bit of a rush...

[Density]

Keg: Thanks for keeping your finger on the pulse....so why would they open the EOI when they could easily fill the positions from internal EOI?

[Keg]

I suspect because internals aren't going to be able to be released in the numbers required. They will need to have hybrid courses from internals and externals so as to ensure the subsidiaries aren't left with even more critical shortages of crew.

[ruddegar]

Thanks for the info Keg - do you have any idea of the numbers for this particular intake?

[Talewind]

Hello everybody, wondering if somebody could help me understand these requirements for the position of SO. They want a minimum of 250 hours PIC. Excluding any 'command under supervsion'

It's the 'command under supervision' i'm not sure about, getting different definitions of it from google. Basically as a First officer on a B737-800 can I ever claim to be PIC?? Some definitions say that so long as the Captain doesn't have to intervene I can log as PIC, others say otherwise. Only have 83 hours actual PIC on single engine and Multi engine, acquired through my inital training, the rest of my time is RHS of B738. Does this exlcude me from applying??

Thanks

[PPRuNeUser0184]

"Some definitions say that so long as the Captain doesn't have to intervene I can log as PIC".......

Oh that's pure gold.

[Density]

Talewind:

PIC is exactly that....pilot in command. There can only be 1 pilot in command of an aircraft. For multi crew operations this is normally the captain. As a result the min requirements are 250 hrs PIC (or 150 PIC if you have 100 hours ICUS (typically used for command upgrades etc) and either 1000 or 1500 hours co-pilot time. So in your instance where you have logged the majority of your time as copilot as long as it is more than 1000 or 1500 hours copilot, that box is ticked. Unfortunately given you have 80 odd PIC hours then you either need to somehow work out how to gain the additional 170 hours (in majority of cases) or unfortunately you would not meet the minimum requirements.

All the best.

[Aviatrix91]

Hello everybody, wondering if somebody could help me understand these requirements for the position of SO. They want a minimum of 250 hours PIC. Excluding any 'command under supervsion'

It's the 'command under supervision' i'm not sure about, getting different definitions of it from google. Basically as a First officer on a B737-800 can I ever claim to be PIC?? Some definitions say that so long as the Captain doesn't have to intervene I can log as PIC, others say otherwise. Only have 83 hours actual PIC on single engine and Multi engine, acquired through my inital training, the rest of my time is RHS of B738. Does this exlcude me from applying??

Thanks

Hi Talewind, to answer your question its referring to actual PIC so unfortunately it sounds like you do not meet the minimum requirements

[Icarus2001]

Some definitions say that so long as the Captain doesn't have to intervene I can log as PIC, others say otherwise. Only have 83 hours actual PIC on single engine and Multi engine,
If the Captain has to use anything other than standard calls then you can only log 40% as ICUS, if the PIC raises their hand to point you can only log 30% as ICUS and if the PIC rolls his/her eyes more then four times in a sector less than two hours or more than six times in a sector more than two hours but less than five hours you can log 50% ICUS. I hope that helps?

[Capt Fathom]

Where does this imaginary entitlement to Command Time come from?

[Talewind]

Okay guys thanks for your help.

[VHFRT]

I'm assuming when they ask for an Academic Transcript they're talking about HSC results? (Maths, Physics etc)

[FogBuster]

Maybe QANTAS should sack the HR department for incompetency?


Absolutely. From what I've heard it seems like HR has got QF by the balls though. Nobody should have any confidence in their "merit based" recruitment process after they cut more than a third of the former cadets in the last recruitment drive. Most of these guys have years of experience as FOs at QLink and JQ, some even have commands yet were deemed unsuitable to sit in the back of an A330. Further insult to injury when they were told not to reapply for a year!

Why the cadets weren't just taken in after a quick check of what they'd been up to is beyond me. The treatment of the last decade (plus) worth of cadets has been utterly appalling and nobody involved in recruitment has the guts to honor their commitments to these cadets.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ComradeRoo]

Keg, thanks for keeping us up to date!

Question, if you don't mind me asking:
As I understand - command time requirements are tailored to bring in GA guys with experience. On the other hand - there will be a number of candidates like Talewind or myself who had gone through airline cadet programmes, currently employed overseas, but would like to return home.
Take my case for example: FO A321, IPC/MEAIR current, all required endorsements, flying in Europe, a bit over 1000TT, but only 85PIC. Not entirely the worst possible candidate, but unfortunately unable to apply due to command requirements. I have a feeling that this case could have been overlooked.
Perhaps you could mention this scenario to HR? ....unless it was planned to be this way :E

In any case - best of luck to those who can apply! Exciting times ahead!

[Vetical Limit]

How commutable is an SO position?

[brown_hornet]

How commutable is an SO position?

Very. How enjoyable is the commute? Not very:bored:

Trips are generally dense enough to get reasonable time off in between, though higher divisors and being junior may mean getting more 3 day trips which makes commuting a bit more of a pain the backside.

[maggot]

How commutable is an SO position?

Easy.

Depends where from of course... brissie or melbourne will get overnights etc for 330 crew too

[Keg]

How commutable is an SO position?

I think you have to wait 6 months before you have access to Staff Travel so that may be the only fly in the ointment in the short term. Beyond that, as others point out it's pretty doable.

Blank Lines won't be great fun depending on where you're commuting from/ to but they're only every 18 months or so. With new crew coming on beneath you it could be even longer.

[atlas12]

What is the deal with "7. Do you have the following hours accrued?" I (as many people would) meet all of those requirements and then some (except rotary). I just ended up ticking 250hrs cmd and 1500hrs co pilot box.

[VHFRT]

I picked from the top using the theory that everything below option 1 was a secondary choice?

[romeocharlie]

Capt Fathom - to answer your question - FAM, and the TACM.

Companies such as Qlink, EFA, REX etc. are able to log PICUS from the right seat on PF sectors, provided they meet certain licence requirements, hence the confusion for some people and why it doesn't just state 500hrs multi-command like the good old days (circa 2007 for VB etc).

Clear as mud? Yep...:ok:

[buckray]

Just a reminder for internal candidates and some info for external interest
This from the Chief Pilots Friday message
"The Expression of Interest for internal Group pilots will close this Sunday 9 October and the recruitment team will begin to review applications on Monday 10 October.
Today, I’m pleased to announce we are opening up pilot recruitment to the rest of the industry.
This will allow us to build a pool of external applicants who we can recruit into the business based on course availability, internal applicant release dates, and flying requirements.
If you know anyone who is interested in applying for a position with Qantas mainline they can apply here or simply direct them to the Qantas careers website. If you have any questions about pilot recruitment please send them to [email protected].
Importantly, entry into Qantas for all candidates will be merit based and for internals, commencement dates will be subject to operational requirements from the departing Group AOC. We are working closely across the AOCs to facilitate this process."

[Bug Smasher Smasher]

Absolutely. From what I've heard it seems like HR has got QF by the balls though. Nobody should have any confidence in their "merit based" recruitment process after they cut more than a third of the former cadets in the last recruitment drive. Most of these guys have years of experience as FOs at QLink and JQ, some even have commands yet were deemed unsuitable to sit in the back of an A330. Further insult to injury when they were told not to reapply for a year!

Why the cadets weren't just taken in after a quick check of what they'd been up to is beyond me. The treatment of the last decade (plus) worth of cadets has been utterly appalling and nobody involved in recruitment has the guts to honor their commitments to these cadets.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

What commitment? These pilots were never guaranteed jobs with QF.

Perhaps during the years sitting in an air-conditioned regional jet/turboprop they forgot that that they still had to compete with "real-world" candidates and just dropped the ball.

No sympathy.

[hotnhigh]

Fog buster,
Probably the first taste of real world experience for these ex cadets to be bypassed.
The ones that were given the first go at the cherry should be grateful. The recruitment process should have been opened up industry wide from the beginning.
Merit based........lol.

[Jc31]

Anyone get the feeling qf are trying to do their recruiting inside of Australia only?

[maggot]

Anyone get the feeling qf are trying to do their recruiting inside of Australia only?

Yeah ek dont want em poaching so sent a memo to hr
:p

[Keg]

Anyone get the feeling qf are trying to do their recruiting inside of Australia only?
Lol. Thanks for the giggle.

Arearuleace, at the end of the day you have to make a decision on how to approach this and be comfortable with the outcome. Personally it doesn't bother me- although it'd make sense for you to have an answer prepare were you to be asked at interview about it- but I've no idea as to whether the respective recruiting systems are that closely linked to even be aware. If they were the next question is how it's viewed by the HR boffins that do the initial screening prior to the assessment Center. I'm not sure anyone on PPRUNE can answer either of those questions for you.

Someone asked when the next DE course is. I'm not sure there will be an all DE course. More likely their will be hybrid courses of trainee S/Os from group sunsidiaries as well as DE courses. Given the lead times I suspect early next year ( Feb is best guess) is likely to be the first external applicants to be on course. Of course, if we bleed the subsidiaries too quickly perhaps they'll put on a fluke of external DE courses to ease the burden for a short time but the preference has been stated publicly to take group pilots first.

[Derfred]

... some even have commands yet were deemed unsuitable to sit in the back of an A330. Further insult to injury when they were told not to reapply for a year!

I suspect the answer is hidden in the text of your outburst.

Qantas Mainline has no interest in employing A330 second officers, they are interested in employing future Captains.

Most pilots employed by Qantas, stay in Qantas for the duration of their career.

And, to their credit, they haven't said "no, never" - they've said take 12 months and sort your **** out.

I don't have any issue with that.

[EY_Airbus]

Sorry for the thread drift, but why is QLink recruiting pilots from Canada? Is there not enough young guys and girls in Australian GA who want to progress to turbine/multi-crew?

[Left 270]

The paycheque on offer would be my best guess. I know a few guys who took other offers after being interviewed based on pay and bases and ended up with better gigs.

[Keg]

QantasLink advertising outside of Australia is NOT Qantas.

Qantas does not operate Dash 8s. QantasLink operates heaps of them. They are two distinct and separate recruiting processes.

[keepitrealok]

The recruitment process should have been opened up industry wide from the beginning. Merit based........lol.

hotnhigh - I can't quite understand your logic here. The cadets had been through the Qantas recruiting process before, and as such Qantas had invested time and money into them. In some ways they were already a 'Qantas product' and therefore of course Qantas is going to look at them first before recruiting afresh.

They subsequently made them resit the recruiting process because of the time elapsed and in a display of genuine integrity some were deemed not suitable. That does show people are recruited on merit based performance.

If you don't understand that of course Qantas is going to start with the cadets who had previously been successfully recruited then I suggest you take a breath and rethink it.

[Compylot]

Hi.


A friend of mine who is a pansexual, gender fluid Otherkin is keen to apply but (as seems to be a common theme amongst overseas cadets!), falls agonizingly short of the required PIC time.


Ze does astral travel on a regular basis and during such journeys says that they experience a dimension whereby they do engage in an operation that lets them log PIC time.


While ze doubts that they could include this as PIC time, I guess the biggest question ze has is whether or not designated safe spaces are allocated on board the long haul aircraft Quantas operate?


Any help or advice is much appreciated :ok:

[Capt Fathom]

We're a bit off a full moon yet. Come back next week Compy

[hotnhigh]

Keep it real.
The whole point is the recruitment process isn't a recruitment process, it's a culling process. Merit is difficult to quantify, Qantas has no allegiances to any particular group of pilots. If It was, then of course the ex cadets would all be placed accordingly. And because of this, it must be remembered the process is there to take out or eliminate candidates.
My reference to ex cadets was so they are fully aware of the process.
They will be very lucky to be given another opportunity within a year. It's a deep deep pool that is available to Qf. They wil cull whoever and however. Sadly, good and bad will miss out and good and bad will be successful.
Unfortunately, in this day and age of hr processes, recruitment cannot occur with a chat and afternoon at the pub. Much more revealing in the real word.
I wish all success in their endeavours.

[Jc31]

Lol. Thanks for the giggle.

Arearuleace, at the end of the day you have to make a decision on how to approach this and be comfortable with the outcome. Personally it doesn't bother me- although it'd make sense for you to have an answer prepare were you to be asked at interview about it- but I've no idea as to whether the respective recruiting systems are that closely linked to even be aware. If they were the next question is how it's viewed by the HR boffins that do the initial screening prior to the assessment Center. I'm not sure anyone on PPRUNE can answer either of those questions for you.

Someone asked when the next DE course is. I'm not sure there will be an all DE course. More likely their will be hybrid courses of trainee S/Os from group sunsidiaries as well as DE courses. Given the lead times I suspect early next year ( Feb is best guess) is likely to be the first external applicants to be on course. Of course, if we bleed the subsidiaries too quickly perhaps they'll put on a fluke of external DE courses to ease the burden for a short time but the preference has been stated publicly to take group pilots first.

Keg in regards to the applications being linked im about 98% sure they are. I'm pretty sure that all Qantas group recruiting is done through the taleo website which will have your seperate applications for different group airlines under your one name. If that makes a difference to hr I'm not sure but I myself wouldn't hold back on applying for mainline just because I had an application or was even on the hold file for qlink

[SandyPalms]

I believe HR is a group department.

[Keg]

Yes it is. And individual members of the 'talent acquisition team' (that's their official title) work across the group. There is a chance that some HR people who interview for QLimk F/O positions may also interview for mainline gigs.

However mainline pilot recruitment is run by Flight Ops HR and borrows resources from talent acquisition as the need arises. Flight Ops HR may still have a dotted line reporting chain to Group HR but that doesn't man that they're engaging on a daily (or even weekly) basis with QLink pilot recruitment. From my discussions with them the link seems to be more strategic rather than tactical.

JC31 could well be correct though that the Taleo website automatically 'dogs you in' if you've applied for a couple of different gigs within the group. Personally that wouldn't stop me. I'll ask the question of the HR people next I come across them as to their thoughts on the issue but that's unlikely to be before applications close. I know for sure a number of the pilot assessors consider it eminently sensible but they don't get a say in who gets interviewed.

Good luck everyone.

[gtseraf]

"talent acquisition" fancy name!

[flyingfrenchman]

I wouldn't get worried about multiple applications! In the last round of recruitment (even if it was 8 years ago) people were offered mainline interviews/positions after initially applying/testing for qlink. Wanting any job in the QF group looks good.

The sad reality group airline applicants don't seem to acknowledge is that your chances could be less purely because you are in a subsidiary airline that needs crew too. Some make it across to prove you can but there are heaps of external to QF group quality applicants that don't leave a hole in a subsidiary to fill.

Good luck to all that apply. You won't regret it.

[Keg]

The good news for those that do get into QLink at a relatively young age, the focus on mainline is to maintain group loyalty and you'll be considered for mainline after doing a min time in the Link and going through the mainline selection process of course.

Edging ever closer to a group seniority number system.

[stillcallozhome]

Thought I might repost this here as mods moved my original to GA forum.

Does anyone know if Qantas accepts pilots through their medical screening if they are colour blind but have a Class 1 and passed the Farnsworth Lantern test?

Thanks in advance

SCOH

[SpyderPig]

While that's great news that Qantas is looking to take care of its group it's disappointing that some people who have held out on going to opportunities else where in the group knowing that they would hire soon and held out thinking it was the right thing to do only just to try and leave 12 months in might be held out in the future.

Hopefully there's enough slots for externals that those on the outside have a real chance!

[rmcdonal]

Edging ever closer to a group seniority number system. You have a funny sense of humour Keg, they can't even get seniority to work within the subsidiaries.
The only reason they are even contemplating keeping pilots within the group is they know they will leave if they don't (as the Cadets who were knocked back have), and this way they get a known product and can use the 'promise' of a Big Q gig as a carrot.

[Keg]

You're probably correct Rob. It still seems like they're edging closer to a group list.

[Density]

Anyone got any info on the type of questions asked in the video interview. How does it work, are you prompted with the question and a timer starts??

[Username here]

Anyone got any info on the type of questions asked in the video interview. How does it work, are you prompted with the question and a timer starts??

Have they started the video interviews mate?

[buckray]

https://youtu.be/i4eaDVjStH4

[Keg]

Behavioural interview. Question shows up. You have 30 seconds to prepare before the video automatically starts. You can finish the answer you reel or the video stops automatically afte the allotted time- can't remember if it's 2:30 or 3 minutes.

[SandyPalms]

150 now to the A330?

[Keg]

And potentially 737 F/O slots within the first 12 months for those that join before the end of 2016 is the other part of that rumour.

[maggot]

^^^ Would potentially be perth or adelaide not east coast.

[Jc31]

Video interview. 10 questions. 30 seconds to prepare for each one then 3 mins to answer each one. All behavioural scenario based questions. Good luck

[Keg]

Interesting rumour, I heard something similar. Out of interest, what is the expected progression for someone who joins mid 2017 to go from 330/787 S/O to a 737 F/O?

Virtually impossible to tell. Mid 2017 means possibly 100 new joiners in front of you. Many of those will likely be keen to take promotion but will they be prepared to move? Depends too on where the movement is further up the chain.

Couple of other things worth noting. Expect things to move pretty quickly in terms of the application process. I expect pilot assessment centres (the bit after the online testing) to be occurring between mid November and mid December.

The internal news email broadcast says north of 500 external applications so far so expect it to be competitive.

[Aviatrix91]

Does anyone know if they have started going through applications yet and offered the psychometric testing?

[Username here]

Thanks for the insight Keg, appreciate it.

Second that, thanks for all the info over the last few weeks Keg. It's been really helpful!

[Density]

That psychometric was painful! Think I need a stiff drink and a rest!

[bose1]

Density did you just do the testing for the SO position?

[bose1]

When and where will the assessment centre be held?
The majority of assessment centres will be held in Sydney. Assessment centres are currently scheduled for the below dates;
 07 November ‘16
 15 November ‘16
 16 November ‘16
 17 November ‘16
 21 November ‘16
 23 November ‘16
 24 November ‘16

Found this information on the FAQ's section. Heres the link if anyone wants to read more.

http://www.qantas.com/infodetail/about/careers/qf-second-officer-recruitment-questions.pdf

[Density]

Bose: yeah....it was damn tough

[Keg]

Have yet to speak to a single soul who did the test and felt they passed let alone did well.

[Density]

Keg....hahaha yeah I left the room muttering to the wife....well thats that then :-)....The numeric (being my strongest) was the worst...normally it is multi choice so you can normally eliminate completely wrong answers...in this one you there is a drop down menu with 1000 numbers and you select the one that is closet to what you came up with...within 60 secs. Arghhh

[nefarious1]

Just finished the testing and figured I'm not cut out to be a pilot....but after 20+ years I suppose I'll persist

[Capt Fathom]

I'm not cut out to be a pilot....but after 20+ years I suppose I'll persist

Hard to teach an old dog new tricks! :O

[WannaBeBiggles]

Today's Australian said 500 apps already..

I honestly thought it'd be in the 1000's...

It'd be quite interesting to see how they hire. Talking to QF guys and girls there always seems to be a good split between ex RAAF/Army/Navy and GA, so take it'll be quite similar again this round?

[Username here]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-pilot-recruitment-drive-attracts-hundreds/news-story/43a2d15b9c3fff4ae5c1b3e0370f2022

I agree with you Biggles, I would have thought there would have been double that! Although I'm sure there are a number of people waiting until the last minute to get their MEA IPC sorted or get Medicals sorted.

500 applications for 170+ jobs... that's a 1 in 3 chance...

[Keg]

That was also the number as at Wednesday..... half way through a 10 day window.

[Dogman]

Guys English Proficency Level 6........I don"t ever remember having to take an english test for my license? A friend said I could do it online for $95 or something......is it necessary? If you select "no" on the application does it count you out or does Qantas recruitment give you a chance to complete it?

Cheers

DM

[engine out]

I'm pretty sure that if you say you don't have it you will get an email back saying sorry you don't meet the requirements (based on speaking to a few others who had said they didn't meet various criteria) though to re-apply when you meet the criteria.

[Gligg]

Whoever aces the exam is invited to become an engineer ;-)

[Open Descent]

whoever aces the exam should be prevented from getting an interview!! ;)

[maggot]

:D



....

[Keg]

I was talking to a mate about the skills test earlier today and I thought I'd add a couple of points that will hopefully put some minds to ease.

Its important to note with the skills test that it's any two applicants may not get exactly the same questions. The system is designed to interpret your answers and the next question may be tailored accordingly.

EG: The questions are time limited. The correct answer to Question 1 may be 23.5 but you'll be presented with answers ranging from 18-29 in 0.1 increments. You may not have enough time to get the exactly correct answer and instead ball park one close to the mark. Depending on how close you get to the correct answer on Q1 may have an impact on what your Question 2 may be. Pick 18.2 and your next question may well be easier than someone who picked 23.1. The question that second person gets may well be easier than someone who got the correct answer at 23.5.

Even if the follow up questions end up being the same, the reality is that given you'll have to 'ball park' some answers, even this gives them an indication as to how good your skills are.

The intent as I understand it is for the test to be highly discriminatory. Rather than have 100 pilots of whom all may pass a 'benchmark' assessment but it's difficult to differentiate between 10-20 of them as they all got all the questions correct, this test is designed to try and rate between each individual applicant. The end result is a list from 1-100 of the capabilities of each individual candidate. Maybe as Open Descent has pointed out the intent is to find the real geniuses and tell them they're way too smart to be pilots!

No pilot I've spoken to thought they had done particularly well across any of the verbal, numerical or logical reasoning tests. Despite this, some of the comments made by the HR people indicate that they were amazed at how strong some of the results were from the 120 of us that did it as part of the application process for pilot assessors. 'Rocket scientists' and 'maths whizzes' were the two phrases I recall hearing being applied to everyone across the board. Apparently it even attracted some comment back to Qantas from the people who developed the tests. I don't consider myself any smarter than the average QF driver.

So yeah, it's a dog. It's a means to an end and despite my dislike of how I felt after doing it, every applicant joining Qantas now has been through it so it's obviously delivering the info they need. I'm sure that makes some unhappy- perhaps Mohikan because he or she tends to only post when unhappy (normally projecting their unhappiness towards me but having added them to my ignore list I can't tell for sure)- but it is what it is and it's been approved by the Chief Pilot as the system they're using.

boeinginthewest, I don't know is the honest answer. I'd be surprised if they even knew who was going through the process back in 2008.

[smiling monkey]

If you meet the minimums, then what does it take to get an invitation to participate in the psyco tests? Considering the online application portal only asks you to upload your license, academic records, a CV and a cover letter, what makes them choose one candidate over another for the initial stage? A good cover letter? Hours in the logbook? A nice photo on your resume?

[EY_Airbus]

If you meet the minimums, then what does it take to get an invitation to participate in the psyco tests? Considering the online application portal only asks you to upload your license, academic records, a CV and a cover letter, what makes them choose one candidate over another for the initial stage? A good cover letter? Hours in the logbook? A nice photo on your resume?

Probably everyone who ticks the right boxes will have a crack at the psych as it's done online and I expect QF have an unlimited-use licence from the service provider. Then a ranking can be formed and taken further from this point. Just my best guess...

[OM4]

So seems everyone has completed the first stage now (internals). With assessment dates as early as Nov 5, I wonder how long it will take to hear back from Q?
From what I hear it's done in order of how you went. So the top applicants will now hear back first as they work there way down the list.
Has anyone heard different?

[ReBjorn]

Probably everyone who ticks the right boxes will have a crack at the psych as it's done online and I expect QF have an unlimited-use licence from the service provider. Then a ranking can be formed and taken further from this point. Just my best guess...

Really wish there was a 'I meet all options of your fixed wing requirements'. Picked 300 ME PIC but no idea whether it's better to go for the straight 500.

[MACH082]

I've got this funny feeling that Qantas will announce 320 Neos at the AGM. The Jetstar guys will be recruited to fly them on fixed term introductory contracts before bidding to whatever their seniority gets them after the introduction.

Correct me if I'm wrong.... but seeing qantas checkies and engineer management types snorkelling around the Ansett sims seems to be the smoke for the fire.

[Ollie Onion]

Well, Jetstar has 60 ish A320's and with the Asian offshoots ordering their own aircraft direct from Airbus there is no way Jetstar can take the 120 ish NEO's on order, so I think it is a strong possibility that we will see Qantas coloured A320's sooner rather than later. Jetstar will start conducting their own A320 type ratings next year and the rumour is there will be one or two A320 sims installed in Sydney for this purpose, so more than likely a similar deal to the 787 with Jetstar providing training to Qantas during any aircraft intro.

[ExtraShot]

The Jetstar guys will be recruited to fly them on fixed term introductory contracts before bidding to whatever their seniority gets them after the introduction.

If you turn out to be right, there are probably already enough between those who have taken the MOU/LWOP and returned, and those wishing to use the MOU in reverse; JQ to QF, to cater for any A320 (A321 NEO LR...:E - Id say a better fit for Qantas) experience requirements imposed by CASA.

I wouldn't think any other specific recruitment would be required, let alone possible/acceptable given the above. Guess you never know though.

[cloudsurfng]

Nice try. A decision on a domestic fleet replacement is still a minimum of 2 years away. Those a320 orders can easily be sold if not needed. Fixed term contracts for jetstar pilots? Nope. MOU opportunities for JQ pilots? Quite possibly. Although for anyone eligible, it would get you a 737 FO position.

Good luck to everyone applying. Will be nice to have some new faces around.

[MACH082]

The oldest 737s are now approaching 18 years old. I don't think they can wait another two years before annnouncing it. Combined with the associated lead in times to actually get their hands on some.

I believe they will move on this very shortly.

[ohfa]

If Qantas mainline want to replace 737's with a320's then I suspect it will be crewed within mainline. There are approx 600 737 drivers. If the firm had thoughts of crewing externally or from other parts of the group,why would they be hiring second officers thereby increasing the number of mainline pilots? All pilots within the Qantas group are flying max hours as it is.

If it is their move to have another pilot group fly the 737 replacement, then you would have thought the current short haul pilot group would via seniority just slide back into long haul with the impending 787 arrivals. Otherwise we will have another major surplus of pilots which would lead to another round of rin, vr or even cr. However this does not seem to be the case nor do I suspect it will be.

No doubt though what will probably happen is when the new aircraft type is announced, the company will put pressure on the union and negotiations will take place to determine the proposed conditions. The current short haul contract is efficient enough as it but that is for another discussion.

[cloudsurfng]

The integration award, now referenced in the short haul ea says who will fly the replacement for the 737 - the mainline crew on the SH award.

Whilst Cobham has operated some routes previously flown by mainline, the EA also stupidly recognises that regional flying is a different operation.

The days of the company chasing major conflict are gone. Whilst it could still improve, there has been a marked change in the language. Anyone joining now can look forward to a long and varied career. Whilst Cobham will still always be a thorn in our side (no offence intended to the individual pilots....we'd much rather see you flying the 717 on better terms.....on the list...giving you and q guys access to different career pathways) the general feel is that the mainline career paths are on the up, and in a big way.

[travelator]

we'd much rather see you flying the 717 on better terms.....on the list...giving you and q guys access to different career pathway

So would we.

[WannaBeBiggles]

Now that applications for externals has closed, any idea what the total number of applicants were?

I am assuming the November dates mentioned in the FAQ's would be for internal applicants given the sheer time it'd take for HR to filter through initial applicants, review video interviews etc

[High_To_Low]

Internals got given 3 days to complete the psych test and video interview...I'd say things are going to move extremely quick for externals as well so I wouldn't be surprised if those dates are for externals mostly...start studying up on "tell us a time when...."

[blow.n.gasket]

..........

[blow.n.gasket]

."tell us a time when...."
You had to concoct some inane answer to this HR derived psycho babble BS!

[dr dre]

You had to concoct some inane answer to this HR derived psycho babble BS!

How do you whittle down the applicants then? There's going to be far more people wanting the job than positions available so how can you decide who to take? Are you suggesting just the top 5/10% of performances in an aptitude test or sim ride? Whoever has the most total hours when applying? Maybe the interviews and the "tell me about a time" q's let out the real character of potential recruits and whether or not they are wanted?

[blow.n.gasket]

Real tough question there Doc.
NOT!
Maybe you could start by putting senior Captains and First Officers, particularly those from a training background back on the selection panel!
They appeared quite apt at weeding out sub optimals.
Gee whiz ,it has apparently worked quite well in the past.
Can't see why it wouldn't continue to work into the future ,despite the HR empire aspirations!

[Ollie Onion]

I went to a Qantas run seminar around 18 months ago and a very knowledgeable industrial psychologist gave a talk on the future of training in the Qantas Group with regard to Evidence Based Training. She was saying that there were pockets of the pilot group who did not perform to the required level during their career and it was being looked at how training could be improved to bring these individuals up to a better standard. She mentioned more 'role playing' etc. during CRM and Human Factor days etc. I asked a simple question 'why not change the way you recruit?', she was a bit confused by my question and was less than impressed when I said that surely pilots should run recruitment and we would possible get a better candidate by simply having a good old fashioned two on one sit down where the pilots can judge 'do I want to spend 9-15 hours with this person on the flight deck' during a fairly casual conversation. Follow that up with some basic tech questions and a quick sim where you demonstrate a visual circuit to them and then give them 4 attempts at getting one right! She said that all the HR research and training suggested that the intro of more role playing, tailored training etc was a better approach. I don't as such have a problem with the current state of play as I have always had a good rate of success with the behavioral type selection, so from a selfish point of you it works well. What is starting to concern me though is the new people getting employed do seem to have a great variation in flying ability which suggests to me that not enough emphasis is being put on the true 'aptitude' component in favour of the HR box ticking exercise that some of this has become.

I get the feeling that HR has 'self created' a massive mechanism to support their own need for Corporations. You could whittle down the applicants just as successfully using your min qualifications for application. For an airline like Qantas you could start with, must have a science based university degree and 3,000 hours, if that doesn't generate enough applicants then lower the requirements until you fill the pool.

[Derfred]

You were doing really well until you said "3,000 hours".

Total time demonstrates very little about the quality of an applicant for a career airline job.

[Lookleft]

But it is also not completely irrelevant as some in HR would have you think. Why bother having any sort of hours requirement if total experience is not an important marker of suitability for an airline job?

[Derfred]

Because by setting an arbitrary 3000 hour minimum, you miss out on the really good applicant who only has 500 hours, and instead hire the dropkick with 3000 hours, and spend the next 30 years trying to uptrain the dropkick, while the 500 hour pilot goes and flies for the opposition.

I did mention career airline, this may not apply to all airline jobs. But at this airline they spend the first few years as an S/O, gaining experience. QF mainline doesn't put 500 hour pilots directly into the RHS of a jet.

[bazza stub]

QF mainline doesn't put 500 hour pilots directly into the RHS of a jet

Yet :}


(additional jibba jabba to make up minimum text requirements)

[Icarus2001]

But at this airline they spend the first few years as an S/O, gaining experience.

I would argue that they gain exposure and very little experience as a SO. No take-offs or landings, no approaches to the minima etc. However they do get to watch two pilots working and learn the company ethos, handle the radio, cruise relief, exposure to foreign ATC and procedures, you know away from worlds best practice in Australia.

[ruprecht]

Yeah, all those 10+ year SOs must be super experienced by now. :p

[maggot]

Yeah, all those 10+ year SOs must be super experienced by now. :p

They are and its great
Looking forward to some fresh blood. Maybe someone will laugh at my jokes
:S

[ruprecht]

They are and its great

Oh I know, I'm one of them!

Maybe someone will laugh at my jokes
:S

I wouldn't be too optimistic... :E

[coolridge]

I just got an email as well for an invitation for a video interview. If anyone knows what questions they ask please let me know or pm me

[VHFRT]

Seems like the group email has gone out to the externals.

Is this a purely behavioral questioning session on the video interview, or can we expect technical questions/maths problems etc?

[smiling monkey]

I thought the video interview comes after the psycho tests, like for the Qlink selection process? Or have they done away with the psycho test stage now?

[LeiYingLo]

Psych testing is done after the video interview. It's the same as with the recent QLink traineeship applications.

[Ozavatar]

Any idea as what to expect for the Qantas mainline SO Video interview .is it all behavioral based question one should be expecting or there are more to that as what you know about the company and why u want to work for Q ......???

Would love from someone who has recently completed the online video interview as one don't get too many try's with Qantas .

Oz

[coolridge]

Just got another email for a psych test

[AviatoR21]

Video Interview = Behavioural Questions
Psychometric = Numerical, Verbal and Logical.

Have a think of scenarios, it's very random. We all got asked very different Q's. As for the psychometric, plenty of practice and study material to prepare from online.

Good luck!