Single pilot helicopter with 2 pilots flying

[berlioz]

Hello to all

I would like to ask you all a question:

When i was flying external loads in EU we use the AS350, a single pilot helicopter in single pilot mission. Sometimes we were using 2 pilots to do the job, either for training purposes or just because the boss said so.

Was this legal? I mean in a single pilot operation having dual controls? And being both pilots rated on the 350.

And about logging time in the logbook? my understand is that you can only log dual time in a multi-crew environment. One as PIC the other as SIC.

Could you aid answering this questions with legal quotes from EASA legislation.

Thanks a lot :ok:

[hueyracer]

Of course this is legal-but you can not (i repeat-CAN NOT!) log those hours as "Multi Pilot hours".

[gulliBell]

1. About "...either for training purposes.." part of your question. Sure it's legal for 2 pilots to be doing training in a single pilot helicopter fitted with dual controls; the instructor pilot logs PIC time, the trainee pilot logs it as dual time.

2. About "..or just because the boss says so..." part of the question. The boss (operator) appoints a person to be the PIC. If the particular operation requires more than one pilot, and it's specified in the operational documentation as so, and complied with, then the guy who is appointed PIC by the boss logs PIC, the other guy logs co-pilot. Just because an aircraft has one engine doesn't automatically disqualify a co-pilot role if a co-pilot is necessary in the operational context.

I'm not citing any reference to regulation as it seems self evident to me that both is logically so.

[SASless]

OK....all that sounds fine.

Now take the situation of a Bell 212 or 412 where I have flown the exact same operation both Single Pilot and Two Pilot. Same Contract, same route, same passengers, same bases, rigs, platforms, and field sites to include airports.

IMC, VMC, Day, Night...nothing different.

The Client changed the Rules to require a Second Pilot.

So...we did....both Pilots "Captains" who swapped duties each fuel load or run, and swapped seats at Lunch Time or mid-Shift.

Now explain how you would log all the time?

[fijdor]

Yes it's legal to have somebody else on board while slinging at least here in Canada.
what we do is this, both pilot can't be flying at the same time, so let say 1 hour of flying is done, if one guy flies 45 min and the other 15 min, they both log their respective time and both names gets in the journey log, one line, 2 names and 1.0 hr flight time.

JD

[roundwego]

During my time offshore, despite the aircraft being certified for single pilot operations, if the aircraft was being flown as a multi crew aircraft in accordance with published multi crew procedures in the operations manual, the copilot would log P2 and the nominated commander logged P1. In SASless's case above, there cannot be two commanders in the aircraft. They may have been captains within the company structure but in the aircraft, one would have to be the nominated commander and the other would log P2 time.

[hueyracer]

The Client changed the Rules to require a Second Pilot.


The client can require whatever he likes-this has no influence in crew designation.

Only the Operations Manual an/or the certification of a helicopter make it a single or dual pilot aircraft...

If you are flying a Bell 212 (Single Pilot as per Flight Operations Handbook, and i bet it was single pilot in accordance with the company operations manual as well), it is a single pilot aircraft-no matter what the client wants.

If your boss puts two pilots into this single pilot aircraft, it is still a single pilot aircraft, hence the second pilot can not log those hours.



Reason for this is simple:
A twin-pilot aircraft has higher requirements than a single pilot aircraft-all instruments need to be installed AND working, and the crew requirements are higher as well (MCC, ATPL.....vs. CPL).

[SASless]

So the Ops Manual gets changed and specifies One Pilot is designated the PIC and the other as SIC....then the logging of time is as Round suggests but without the Ops Manual being changed the logging of time even if done as you suggest less a Manual Change then one Pilot cannot log any time?

What Regulation you basing that your position upon?

Is a Bell 212/412 or an S-76 a Single Pilot Aircraft or a Two Pilot Aircraft.

[Frying Pan]

Easy. No one really cares or knows...but when you crash, then let's see who puts down PIC and who opts not to.

[hueyracer]

You would need to look into the Flight Manual and Ops Manual....but the normal Bell 212 and 412 Flight Manual state that "Minimum Crew required" is ONE pilot only...

Yes-the Manual would need to get changed and approved by the local CAA....then all company procedures would need to be changed to support Multi-Crew (the PIC would need an ATPL, and both pilots would need a multi-pilot type rating instead of a single-pilot type rating-under EASA rules, both exist...).

So you tell me:
Why would a company jump through all those hoops, only to allow the pilot to log the hours?

Especially as in that case, the helicopter would ALWAYS have to be flown by two qualified crew on board (depending upon how the Ops manual is worded.....it can be worded e.g. that "under Night conditions, the minimum crew is TWO qualified pilots, but under Day VFR it is ONE qualified pilot")..

[hueyracer]

CAP 804 in the explanations:

Multi-pilot aircraft
For aeroplanes, it means aeroplanes certi cated for operation with a minimum crew of at least two pilots;
For helicopters, airships and powered-lift aircraft, it means the type of aircraft which is required to be operated with a co-pilot as speci ed in the flight manual or by the air operator certi cate or equivalent document.


And i guess we don´t need to discuss that a CPL-holder can only fly Single-Pilot helicopters as PIC, right?


Just in Case: Cap804, Requirements before you can get a multi-pilot helicopter type rating :Section 4 Part H, Subpart 2 Page 3
(a) Multi-pilot helicopters. An applicant for the rst type rating course for a multi-pilot helicopter type shall:
(1) have at least 70 hours as PIC on helicopters;
(2) except when the type rating course is combined with an MCC course:
(i) hold a certi cate of satisfactory completion of an MCC course in helicopters; or
(ii) have at least 500 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes; or
(iii) have at least 500 hours as a pilot in multi-pilot operations on multi-engine helicopters;
(3) have passed the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations.

[SASless]

Let's really confuse the issue.

The Operator decides to do the Ops Manual changes....which seat does the PIC sit in....when the otherwise Single Pilot Aircraft is operated as a Two Pilot Aircraft but both pilots are equally rated and both approved as PIC's but one is acting as designated PIC and the other as SIC although each is qualified to fly the aircraft Single Pilot when not required to have a second pilot along?

Is there a "pilot's seat" and a "co-pilot's seat" in a Bell 212/412?

[GoodGrief]

There's no confusion aboout that. All things equal at the end it's the guy in the right hand seat.

[ShyTorque]

Confuse it some more by adding in private operations in aircraft of MAUM not above 3175Kgs where there is no requirement for an ops manual....

[SASless]

Grief....what about Underslung work where it is done from the Left Hand Seat be it single or two pilot?

If you are not engaged in Underslung Work...and are single pilot....can you fly a Bell 212/412 from the Left Seat?

What is magic about the Right Hand Seat......ever flown a Hughes 500?

[GoodGrief]

I knew you would come up with that...:sad:

[SASless]

I think what we are seeing in this discussion is the role bureaucracy plays in our daily work lives.

We start with a simple thing....flying a helicopter.

Then....we apply Design Criteria, Ergonomics, Rules, Regulations, SOP's, Law, Ops Specs, ANO Requirements, SB's AD's, and all manner of factors that levy requirements on us that in turn need Waivers, Exemptions, and Modifications.

If you read back over the thread....we not once discussed flying the helicopter.

We got diverted to "Pilot's Seat", Pilot in Command, Second in Command, ATPL vs CPL.....and so forth and so on....with scant concern for what it is all about....safely flying a helicopter.

[berlioz]

Hey guys

Thank you for all your replies.

If i understand correctly....a simple pilot machine can be flown with 2 rated pilots and having dual controls installed. But only one of the pilots can log the time.

If they both want to log the time they would have to "change" to multi-crew environment and the PIC would have to be ATPLH.

So...and now a techlog question...can the second pilot be named on the techlog? And if so ... as what? PIC or Pilot? Crew member?

Thank you all

[fijdor]

One single pilot machine can have 2 pilots on board here is a quote from the B212 FM and it's the same for 204, 205 and probably any single pilot machine out there.
Left crew seat may be used for an additional pilot for VFR day and night operations when approved dual controls and copilot instrument kits are installed.

If there are 2 pilots in there, one can fly the outbound route and the other one the inbound route. Both of them can log the time they did.
When the words " you have control" is given, he becomes the new pilot flying on board.
If you are a pilot and YOU fly an aircraft you can log the time no matter what seat you are sitting in.
For multi crew aircraft is a different story.

JD

[SASless]

One last curve ball.....When can three appropriately rated pilots all log flight time in a single engine, single pilot aircraft during day VFR/VMC flight?






Hey guys

Thank you for all your replies.

If i understand correctly....a simple pilot machine can be flown with 2 rated pilots and having dual controls installed. But only one of the pilots can log the time.

If they both want to log the time they would have to "change" to multi-crew environment and the PIC would have to be ATPLH.

So...and now a techlog question...can the second pilot be named on the techlog? And if so ... as what? PIC or Pilot? Crew member?

Thank you all

[fijdor]

That's a good curve ball, It happened to me where 3 rated pilots were flying 2 single pilot aircraft, we were "double crewing" 2 aircraft 1 B204 and one B205, those 2 aircraft went non-stop for 16 hours a day everyday (short term) we did one entry for the date on one line with our names in each journey log, we were using split duty at the time. Difference here is there was only one pilot at a time in each aircraft with dual controls installed, everybody was flying left seat (Bucketing). Our flight time was recorded in our "Flight Duty" record for the day.

JD

[SASless]

Think about a Check Pilot being checked giving a check ride to a pilot!

[roundwego]

I think some posters are taking the piss here.

[megan]

It can get difficult re who sits where and their respective duties. 76 for example can be flown single pilot, from the right of course. In two crew normally the command guy sits on the right. An operator who uses the aircraft for military SAR work has auto hover capability and procedures require the command to sit in the left.

Never really understood the US Army command guys sitting in the left on Huey slicks. The only explanation I ever received was due to the better visibility with the cut off instrument panel on that side. Me? I always flew right seat, as I wanted to be able to be able to reach everything with the left hand, radios, fuel, hydraulics etc. Even though slicks flew two pilot, it could hardly be called a two pilot operation, merely two for redundancy.

[lelebebbel]

The other day I logged 6.5 hours of thirty-seventh-in-command time (all multi engine turbine IFR), riding in the back of a 767

[megan]

Think about a Check Pilot being checked giving a check ride to a pilot!SIL is doing that this very week SAS.

[Band a Lot]

SASless QF 32 rings a bell.

For customers request, would it not just be a Safety Pilot with no log time?

[hueyracer]

It can get difficult re who sits where and their respective duties


No-its fairly simple-just RTFM.

The RFM clearly states the minimum crew required, and which seat to be flown in.
In the case of a Bell 212, it usually says "Minimum crew is one pilot, flying in the right hand seat".

If you want to fly single pilot from the left hand seat, make sure your Ops Manual says so-and you´re legal to fly.


The "habit" of putting two pilots (or even three) into a single pilot helicopter, all logging "multi PIC time" led to the problems we are having nowadays with two "experienced" crew in the cockpit of REAL multi-pilot operations, both unable to work together, as "CRM" is something they only heard about once...

[SASless]

There are other Authorities than the UK CAA.

Where you are operating and under whose laws/regulations determines the answer to many of the questions posed in this thread.

This being an "international" forum drawing folks from all over this Blue/Green Orb we inhabit...there are more than one right answer to many of these questions.

Sometimes multiple authorities do agree but not always.

[ShyTorque]

SASless, the best clue was the inclusion of "EASA" in the original post. The UK complies with EASA (SERA) rules these days.

[SASless]

Helicopter flying goes on all over the World....most probably outside EASA making EASA just another subset of Codified Rules. Hard to accept I know but that is life.

[ShyTorque]

Helicopter flying goes on all over the World....most probably outside EASA making EASA just another subset of Codified Rules. Hard to accept I know but that is life.
Of course only you knew that....

The original post asked about EASA. Anything else is thread drift.

[SASless]

Since when has that been an issue at prune?



Of course only you knew that....

The original post asked about EASA. Anything else is thread drift.

[megan]

No-its fairly simple-just RTFMDid you read and comprehend the sentence following?