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EGLD
17th Sep 2016, 20:24
How on earth did they get to the top of their support and a position of such dominance when they can barely get through a day without powerful breathing or allergy meds?

ORAC
17th Sep 2016, 21:05
An expert described it today. An average asthma sufferer rarely uses more than 50-60% of their lung capacity, a top athlete reaches 100%, and uses it for extended periods.

Thus even a minor attack has a substantial effect which a normal sufferer would not even recognise, but severely effects an athlete. All such prescriptions are examined by medical examiners who are aware of such circumstances - of whom you clearly are dismissive and have more expert knowledge?

lomapaseo
17th Sep 2016, 21:30
of whom you clearly are dismissive and have more expert knowledge?

I don't agree with your sentiment.

The OP question stands unanswered in my view.

Where is the line between superb conditioning of the human body and external medicines not available to the original athletes of centuries ago?

I'm not saying there should be no medicine, but just expanding the question of how is the line drawn by the experts in the field?

VP959
17th Sep 2016, 21:40
Haven't we already done this to death in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/584488-tue-s.html ?

wiggy
17th Sep 2016, 21:52
Haven't we already done this to death in this thread: http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/584488-tue-s.html ?

Yes we have, including full explanations of exercise induced ashthma for those who've never even run for bus.....but I'm afraid you'll never stop the wittering of the lycraphobes.

EGLD
18th Sep 2016, 13:35
Yes we have, including full explanations of exercise induced ashthma for those who've never even run for bus.....but I'm afraid you'll never stop the wittering of the lycraphobes.

And you're stinking both threads up by trying to create straw man arguments about everyone who's saying this is highly suspicious being unfit.

wiggy
18th Sep 2016, 13:58
OK, it might have helped or been more diplomatic if you'd entitled the thread:

"Who would have thought our elite athletes were were such poorly people", rather than simply pointing fingers at the one sport that has probably done the most over the last 10-15 years to try and get control over it's doping problem.

If you are interested there's 177 pages plus of debate on the way in which cycling continually gets a kicking in the popular media vs other sports here:

Drugs in other sports and the media. - BikeRadar Forum (http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12885414)

As for "stinking up" threads, as you rightly say this issue (in the shape of TUEs) was already being discussed/debated in another thread. If you start another one in parallel you were almost bound to get the same sort of response from the same people.

wiggy
18th Sep 2016, 15:32
lomapaseo

Without wishing to "stink things up"

The OP question stands unanswered in my view.

Where is the line between superb conditioning of the human body and external medicines not available to the original athletes of centuries ago?

I'm not saying there should be no medicine, but just expanding the question of how is the line drawn by the experts in the field?

A tricky one, I don't know where you draw the line ...FWIW a couple of decades back one of my young teenage nephew's was a fairly useful middle distance runner (UK county standard). He started to have wheezing/breathing problems in the hours/day after an event and was eventually diagnosed as having what we would now label as "exercise induced asthma". The options he was given by his Doc were:

1. Give up Athletics.
2. Take no medication and accept the suffering (and it was unpleasant at times).
3. In the event of breathing difficulties, and post the event only use an inhaler ( if competing at a higher level these days that would be one of the classic reasons for needing a TUE).

IMHO option 3 (which is the on he chose to take) is no more sinister or performance enhancing than needing a blister on your foot treated after a long run...I'd also agree that if the inhaler was used just prior to an event that is a completely different matter.

Any thoughts?

EGLD
18th Sep 2016, 17:36
lomapaseo

Without wishing to "stink things up"



A tricky one, I don't know where you draw the line ...FWIW a couple of decades back one of my young teenage nephew's was a fairly useful middle distance runner (UK county standard). He started to have wheezing/breathing problems in the hours/day after an event and was eventually diagnosed as having what we would now label as "exercise induced asthma". The options he was given by his Doc were:

1. Give up Athletics.
2. Take no medication and accept the suffering (and it was unpleasant at times).
3. In the event of breathing difficulties, and post the event only use an inhaler ( if competing at a higher level these days that would be one of the classic reasons for needing a TUE).

IMHO option 3 (which is the on he chose to take) is no more sinister or performance enhancing than needing a blister on your foot treated after a long run...I'd also agree that if the inhaler was used just prior to an event that is a completely different matter.

Any thoughts?

Yep - you're giving anecdotal evidence about one person you know

The sheer number of top level athletes with breathing issues that require treatment from medicines that are also classified as performance enhancing is staggering

Having said that, have the Aussies who were so vociferous about our superhuman cyclists achievements at the Olympics said anything about this? or are they perhaps slinking into the background hoping their records aren't released?

SpringHeeledJack
18th Sep 2016, 17:39
In the 'old days', it was relatively common practice by racing cyclists to suck a couple of strong menthol type sweets before a big effort (time trial etc) to open the airways in the hope that it might reduce E.A.A (sounds official now!). All harmless and legal, but not as effective as a good and thorough warm up, but who has time for that ? ;-)

wiggy
18th Sep 2016, 22:29
Yep - you're giving anecdotal evidence about one person you know

Through running and these days cycling ( I'm bad at both ) I know several individuals who very definitely suffer from exercise induced asthma. The example I wrote about was simply a classic case I knew of of asthma being diagnosed in a young athlete and the options that are available.

The sheer number of top level athletes with breathing issues that require treatment from medicines that are also classified as performance enhancing is staggering



Brings me back unfortunately, and I'll apologise before hand if for some reason if it causes offence, to the running for the bus comment.

Like it or not your average man or woman in the street never pushes/stresses their cardiovascular system to anywhere near the point where post exercise "breathing issues" would manifest themselves... OTOH the pros in many sports certainly do so, so it surely should be no surprise that as a group they are going to be over represented in any survey on exercise induced asthma ( there have been plenty of medical papers published on why this occurs and trigger mechanisms). It then follows from that that if you look at a list such as the Russian hackers did recently you will see a fair number of athletes have TUEs for medication related to "breathing conditions".

Now whether they should be allowed to take certain drugs post exercise probably is a subject for debate (which I think is what lomapaseo was driving at) but if you ban treatment post competition for breathing difficulties you have to consider banning any medical treatment, for any injuries caused in an event or conditions aggrevated by an event, from sore feet (running) or sore backsides (cycling) to medication/treatment for sun burn for the fair skinned...

As for the Aussies (cycling ) I think general feeling is they blew their prep for the olympics by trying to peak twice this year ( for the worlds and then the olympics). TBF a lot of the grumbling was misreported by elements of the U.K. press looking for juicy doping headline. I think the general complaint I heard/saw from their athletes was that the Aussie cycling team didn't have as well a funded system as the UK cycling team has.

As a closing comment if you want to know why I and other's who follow uk cycling get so "excited"about this it is because the UK media are quite happy to ignore the goings on with steroids (rugby, possibly tennis), growth hormones and various training supplements, won't really investigate the interesting training regimes/ training partners used by some of our national treasures, but will hold the front page to break a story about a cyclist having a TUE for asthma.

Long winded, but I hope that helps.

Espada III
19th Sep 2016, 16:14
As someone who does suffer from exercise induced asthma I am disappointed by comments made about our elite athletes who also suffer. Asthma is a disease growing in number and although treatment is improving, it still is all about opening the airways to improve breathing. I can't run for toffee, but I am a useful cyclist if I put my heart into it, and was a competitive swimmer in my youth. I don't need regular medication, but once or twice a year I will have a puff of Salbutamol. However if I was training daily, at the rates our elite competitors train, I would need that puff on a much more regular basis, otherwise I would not be able to compete. So the options are: permit Salbutamol for theraputic reasons or force me into the Paralympics.

LordGrumpy
19th Sep 2016, 16:22
Poorly: that explains why no mudguards or panniers on their bikes.

EGLD
25th Sep 2016, 19:48
A former team doctor of Sir Bradley Wiggins has questioned the decision to allow him to use a banned steroid just days before major races.

Prentice Steffen said he was "surprised" he was prescribed the drug.

He told BBC Newsnight the sport's governing body was wrong to give the cyclist permission to use a powerful corticosteroid before major races.

Tom Dumoulin, who was beaten to the world time trial title by Wiggins in 2014, broke ranks to say the situation around the British rider ‘stinks’.

Explaining why he needed the drug for asthma ahead of his historic Tour victory, Wiggins told the BBC’s Andrew Marr: ‘I really struggled in that period. June-July is the worst period for that. April, June, July, right through those months I was having problems. When you win the race three weeks out from the Tour de France, as I did on the Dauphine Libere, you’re the favourite for the Tour.

‘You have the medical team there; the coaches checking everything, saying: “Bradley you’re on track here, you’re the favourite to win, is there anything we can help with?”

‘[I reply] “Well, I was still struggling with this breathing last week. I know it didn’t look like it but is there anything else you can do just to make sure that this doesn’t become an issue into a three-week race”. ’

In his 2012 autobiography, My Time — a book where he makes no mention of the life-long asthma problems he insists he has suffered with — Wiggins gives a rather different account of his health that year.

‘I had been close to my best in the Dauphine,’ he writes. ‘In the three weeks before I travelled to start the Tour it was just a case of sustaining the form, dropping a tiny bit more weight, backing up a bit in training. Clearly I was in the ballpark. I was very confident.

‘I felt relaxed and business-like. That sense I had that things were going my way was reinforced the moment I landed in Belgium. I’d done all the work, I was fine-tuned. I was ready to go. My body was in good shape. I’m in the form of my life. I was only ill once or twice with minor colds, and I barely lost a day’s training from it.’

A number of medical experts, as well as a doctor from his former team, have questioned why Wiggins would need such a strong drug when inhalers should be able to manage the symptoms listed on the TUE forms leaked by the group of hackers calling themselves Fancy Bears.

He suggested the confusion that surrounded the claim in his book that he had never used needles — he was given triamcinolone via intramuscular injections — was caused by his ghost writer and that particular claim went unchallenged.

Challenged by Marr on the no-needles claim, Wiggins replied: ‘I wasn’t writing the book, I was writing it with a cycling journalist who’s very knowledgeable on the sport and had lived through Lance Armstrong and the doping era. All the questions at that time were loaded towards doping.’

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/08/14/article-2188427-148B9FD8000005DC-907_306x469.jpg

SilsoeSid
25th Sep 2016, 20:10
During the interview he never looks up when recalling something, always down and to the right :suspect:

Possibly a sign of auditory recollection, remembering what he has been told to say?

ORAC
25th Sep 2016, 20:24
The rules are the rules. Don't complain when you don't like them - change them.

In the meantime don't complain when athletes adher to them.

wiggy
25th Sep 2016, 22:02
What ORAC said and also perhaps what lomapaseo alluded to right at the start...and BTW we do all know the background to these leaks, don't we?

Perhaps the best and most honest answer would be to say OK, grant anyone who has ever had a TUE paralympian status or whatever it's called and let them get on with it....can't see that going down well.

FWIW comment from a hockey player ( yes hockey ) caught up in all this here:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2016/sep/20/sam-quek-fancy-bears-wada-hacking-scandal-hockey-gold-team-gb

EGLD
5th Mar 2018, 07:42
Yes we have, including full explanations of exercise induced ashthma for those who've never even run for bus.....but I'm afraid you'll never stop the wittering of the lycraphobes.

Sir Bradley Wiggins and Team Sky "crossed an ethical line" by using drugs allowed under anti-doping rules to enhance performance instead of just for medical need, a report by MPs says.

Sir Bradley Wiggins & Team Sky ?crossed ethical line? - doping in sport report - BBC Sport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43280081)

ATNotts
5th Mar 2018, 09:40
Sir Bradley Wiggins & Team Sky ?crossed ethical line? - doping in sport report - BBC Sport (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/43280081)

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest! WADA has given sports people a way of getting around drug rules, the TUEs, and given the money that is involved in sport in general, why wouldn't any athletes, coaches and management exploit the legalities to achieve the best, and therefore increase their earning potential.

Then, what constitutes performance enhancing. Is keep jockeys un-naturally light weight performance enhancing, or rugby player bulking up (of course with nothing more suspicious that food) artificial performance enhancement?

I don't know, I just posing the question.

wiggy
5th Mar 2018, 09:48
WADA has given sports people a way of getting around drug rules, the TUEs, and given the money that is involved in sport in general, why wouldn't any athletes, coaches and management exploit the legalities to achieve the best, and therefore increase their earning potential.

I suppose one way of looking at it is TUEs are a part of the drug rules, not a way of getting around......(don’t agree with the TUE system as it stands, and I don’t know what to do about it either)

Be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few days. As it stands Wiggins et. al have stayed within the letter of those laws set by WADA and the UCI. I think the way this has come out of Westminster smacks of grandstanding because AFAIK Wiggins has not done anything illegal...”unpleasant/unethical” - perhaps, but I’m not sure it was “ illegal”, which is a term one of the MPs has been using on TV this morning. TBF though I gather at least the report mentions there are serious problems in sports other than cycling, but of course Wiggins, Froome, Sky etc will grab the headlines.

ATNotts
5th Mar 2018, 10:00
I suppose one way of looking at it is TUEs are a part of the drug rules, not a way of getting around......(don’t agree with the TUE system as it stands, and I don’t know what to do about it either)

Be interesting to see how this plays out in the next few days. As it stands Wiggins et. al have stayed within the letter of those laws set by WADA and the UCI. I think the way this has come out of Westminster smacks of grandstanding because AFAIK Wiggins has not done anything illegal...”unpleasant/unethical” - perhaps, but I’m not sure it was “ illegal”, which is a term one of the MPs has been using on TV this morning. TBF though I gather at least the report mentions there are serious problems in sports other than cycling, but of course Wiggins, Froome, Sky etc will grab the headlines.

Partly to get away from the endless oscars garbage I was watching ARD this morning, to get some news (they appear to have the oscars more in proportion) and during the sports segment that I saw there wasn't so much as a mention of this latest "scandal" even though they were covering cycling in some depth.

I'm positive that what is being alleged with regard to UK cycling and Team Sky is prevalent throughout professional sport. it's not right, it's not ethical, but as I mentioned previously, now there's so much money in many sports, it would hardly be surprising.

Buster15
5th Mar 2018, 10:28
The key word here is ELITE, which means achieving a level that few peers can get to.
We all know that to get to and maintain that standard you have to push the boundaries and EXPLOIT the rules to attempt to get an advantage.
The report clearly states that the only thing found was the use of LEGAL substances PERMITTED by a TUE. So what is wrong with that.
And how is that different from an athlete using high altitude training or using a lighter bike than anyone else.
It is typical of this country where we want our sports people to win then criticise them for pushing the boundaries.

ORAC
5th Mar 2018, 10:37
I suppose not crossing “ethical boundaries” would allow you to claim a “moral victory”.

The British press have a history of claiming the latter - invariably after a British athlete/team were beaten and came home with neither victory or medal....

ImageGear
5th Mar 2018, 10:44
A top class marathon runner, who was also a colleague, always said that when one has reached the very pinnacle of your chosen sport, there is no question but you are FULLY informed of every single medication or drug which will render you visible to the authorities. At that level, a defence of "I did not know what I was taking, or that the implications would be", are of no consequence. Simply put, if you claim not to know, you are, or were cheating. You will have been questioning and analysing in detail, the very cornflakes and milk you consume for breakfast.

You will also likely have far more knowledge of what will affect your performance, than any ordinary doctor, and most specialist sports medicine people.
Do the crime, serve the time. Rehabilitation is not an option.

IG

ORAC
5th Mar 2018, 10:56
It’s like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

The first is legal and every single company or individual in the top 1% of earners will legally employ teams of accountants and lawyers to ensure they use the law to maximum effect. They would be foolish and remiss to themselves and their companies if they did not. The second is illegal and deserving of punishment.

I would suggest the same applies to the use of medications, supplements, purpose designed aerodynamic costumes etc etc for the top 1% of athletes - whatever their field.

It would seem, from the reports, that nothing was done that does not fall into the first category.

The same complaints have been made about the suits of the British team swimmers at the last summer Olympics and skeleton/luge athletes at the recent Winter Olympics.

Buster15
5th Mar 2018, 11:10
It’s like the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

The first is legal and every single company or individual in the top 1% of earners will legally employ teams of accountants and lawyers to ensure they use the law to maximum effect. They would be foolish and remiss to themselves and their companies if they did not. The second is illegal and deserving of punishment.

I would suggest the same applies to the use of medications, supplements, purpose designed aerodynamic costumes etc etc for the top 1% of athletes - whatever their field.

It would seem, from the reports, that nothing was done that does not fall into the first category.

The same complaints have been made about the suits of the British team swimmers at the last summer Olympics and skeleton/luge athletes at the recent Winter Olympics.

Agreed ORAC. Regarding the Ethical issue, I would say that whether something is or is not so would be a subjective judgement and people's views might well differ.
Most sports are now competed on a world stage and you cannot become a world champion by simply doing the same as everyone else.
I dislike reports like this which infur guilt without a shred of real evidence of wrong doing.
They achieve nothing apart from ruining someone's career by inuendo.

ImageGear
5th Mar 2018, 11:22
...Most sports are now competed on a world stage and you cannot become a world champion by simply doing the same as everyone else.

I agree, be fitter, have greater lung capacity, better muscle function, better mental attitude, etc, etc.

Do not use performance enhancing drugs or medications. Clothing? well surfing baggies, or Speedo's, tracksuits or running shorts, no contest really, and would not be considered as physically harmful.

IG

wiggy
5th Mar 2018, 11:30
Buster

And how is that different from an athlete.... using a lighter bike than anyone else.

There are rules for that, but it's another can of worms...

Bauke Mollema?s bike makes mockery of UCI weight limit | road.cc (http://road.cc/content/tech-news/197339-bauke-mollema%E2%80%99s-bike-makes-mockery-uci-weight-limit)

It's not unknown for the mechanics to tape weights (or e.g. small spanners) to frames to get the weight up to the legal limit....mind you I wouldn't fancy hitting a pothole at speed on some of the really light weight stuff...

PDR1
5th Mar 2018, 11:32
According to the piece on R4's Today programm4e this morning the particular drug used is extremely powerful (with lots of side-effects) and would normally onl be proescribed to someone presenting with asthma so severe that the restriiction would be life-threatening whilst lying on a stretcher in an ambulence on the way to the hospital. They said there was no medical protocol for using this drug whilst undertaking significant physical exertion.

Sorry, but this just stinks. It's like saying "I do my best rough-weather instrument landings after a couple of double scotches, so the passengers must allow me the booze so I can perform at my best".

PDR

troppo
5th Mar 2018, 11:33
I was hoping an elite cyclist was going to answer this in person however instead of sitting behind a keyboard they appear to be out cycling at limits of human performance most will never comprehend

Buster15
5th Mar 2018, 11:35
I agree, be fitter, have greater lung capacity, better muscle function, better mental attitude, etc, etc.

Do not use performance enhancing drugs or medications.
IG

IG. But the performance enhancing drugs are LEGAL aren't they ?
Yes, become fitter etc, all elite athletes do that but don't infer wrong doing when no such wrong doing was proven. That is my point.

Hussar 54
5th Mar 2018, 11:48
Given that football is the world's most popular sport ( participants perhaps not, spectators most certainly ) I'm surprised that there have been virtually no incidents flagged of football players using performance enchncing drugs.

Having said that, there have been constant whispers for the past 25 years or so that many of the great Italian and Spanish football teams of the past 30 years had their performances significantly 'enhanced' by the same Italian and Spanish 'Medical Advisors' who were also involved in many of cycling's more famous cases of drug-assisted victories.

It seems to me that it can't be only cycling and field athletics where this sort of thing goes on, but give a dog a bad name, etc.....

PDR1
5th Mar 2018, 12:27
I was hoping an elite cyclist was going to answer this in person however instead of sitting behind a keyboard they appear to be out cycling at limits of human performance most will never comprehend

The elite cyclists of the world are stuck at home, unable to cycle to work until the pharmacy opens

PDR

wiggy
5th Mar 2018, 12:37
Given that football is the world's most popular sport ( participants perhaps not, spectators most certainly ) I'm surprised that there have been virtually no incidents flagged of football players using performance enchncing drugs.



Anyone who looks at the Premiership/la Liga etc fixture list, looks at the pace at which many games are played at, and then thinks it's all down to cups of tea and a bit of caffine laced "energy drink" at halftime is in utter denial. I think along with other sports the testing regime for football has (conveniently) been pants for years...

Drugs testing in football: No test for a quarter of EFL players - BBC Sport (http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/43032571)

If anyone is really interested there's a very long and ongoing read on a cycling forum, (warning, 241 page thread and growing) about the whole issue of cycling's bad name vs. the whitewash that has gone on in other sports. Even if you get no further than the very first post from way back in 2012 you should get a clue as to what follows, and as it happens that post starts with a comment about the way a substances story involving the England football team was handled by the UK media (for those asking to hear from the cycling pros, there are some comments contained in that thread from current or former pro riders ):

https://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12885414

As someone said very recently in that place:

"I've always maintained that the best way for a sport not to have a drug problem is to not bother testing properly."

Name a sport not testing "properly"...Football, Rugby, Tennis for starters perhaps?.......

Hussar 54
5th Mar 2018, 13:34
Just to add....

About the 'great' Guardiola and his 'great' Barcelona and now Man City football teams.

If people think that performance enhancing substances haven't been and still don't play some part in this 'greatness' they might want to Googleoo Guardiola, Barcelona, Man City, Drugs... And perhaps think again....

SpringHeeledJack
5th Mar 2018, 14:21
The key word here is ELITE, which means achieving a level that few peers can get to.
We all know that to get to and maintain that standard you have to push the boundaries and EXPLOIT the rules to attempt to get an advantage.
The report clearly states that the only thing found was the use of LEGAL substances PERMITTED by a TUE. So what is wrong with that.
And how is that different from an athlete using high altitude training or using a lighter bike than anyone else.
It is typical of this country where we want our sports people to win then criticise them for pushing the boundaries.

Professionals (in most walks of life) are different to hobbyists, with rare exceptions. They use different methods, different strategies, different products. Professional athletes are, in a way, more a product or brand than human person, certainly once they reach a high level. Without success not only do they risk low pay, but their place in the team and the team's sponsorship money. It makes BUSINESS sense to use every legal method to gain an advantage over your competitors, as in most industries. To the winner the spoils. Professional sport is, in a way, war by proxy, in that it emulates 'warriors' battling and the people supporting them in spirit (and at a safe distance!). Sky and Wiggins have used every legal advantage and for the MP to now ruin their reputations, is fruitless, except to be seen to be doing something. What a shame the time spent by our elected officials wasn't used exposing the stunning fraud and illegalities present in the UK financial industry, truly a world class player.

wiggy
5th Mar 2018, 14:27
SHJ

Agreed, must admit given recent form I’m uneasy hearing MP’s lecturing anybody on ethical behaviour...

As for other sports, Googling “Fuentes and football”, or “Operation Puerto” might be a revelation to some....

wiggy
5th Mar 2018, 16:43
Looks like another sport is now dogged by doping scandals:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/oct/24/iditarod-dog-doping-scandal-sled-race

Hussar 54
5th Mar 2018, 17:35
And as if on cue....

Dr Mark Bonar who is accused of doping stars is now living abroad | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5463841/Shamed-former-Harley-Street-doctor-accused-doping-stars.html)

good egg
5th Mar 2018, 18:30
Love the armchair enthusiasts/“experts” on here.

Especially voicing opinions on athletes when they have absolutely no concept of what it takes to be a professional athlete.

Back in the day I used to represent my country. If I had a body fat percentage greater than 4% come competition time I wouldn’t be considered, pretty much regardless of my performances.

At those percentages your body is far more susceptible to viruses and other illnesses, which is why if we had so much as a sniff in training camps we were kept away from other athletes to recuperate/not infect. But that does mean time away from training.

The life of a professional athlete means walking a tightrope between staying “healthy” and pursuing goals.

Athletes at this level have medicinal, legal, nutritional, coaching, psychology, recovery professionals all working for them.

I doubt there’s a professional athlete who has the mental capability, or the time, to consider every ramification of every decision. That’s what the support team is for.

All it takes is one loose cog to ruin a career.

Everyone in the team has to run it close to the line (but not cross it) to produce world champions - even to medal at major events.

EGLD
5th Mar 2018, 19:18
double post

EGLD
5th Mar 2018, 19:19
I doubt there’s a professional athlete who has the mental capability, or the time, to consider every ramification of every decision.

I think understanding that he's taking a drug that's normally administered as an alternative to a trip to A&E wouldn't be beyond Wiggo, how many scarily powerful drugs was he taking for this one to be beyond his capability of understanding?

The report clearly states that the only thing found was the use of LEGAL substances PERMITTED by a TUE. So what is wrong with that..

He wasn't ill

You're all just fat and jealous!

dook
5th Mar 2018, 19:39
I’m uneasy hearing MP’s lecturing anybody on ethical behaviour...

Agreed.

What does any MP know about ethics or honesty.

DType
5th Mar 2018, 19:42
EG
"He wasn't ill."
But he SAID he was, according to the quote in Post 14.

Buster15
5th Mar 2018, 20:00
He wasn't ill

1. Are you a GP?
2. Define ILL.
3. You don't have to be ill to require a TUE. The basis for a TUE is to allow a competitor the chance to complete without the adverse effects of a particular condition.
4. For something like Bradley Wiggins to be accused of non ethical behaviour by a bunch of MPs is hypocrisy of the highest level. Ethical my axx.

jindabyne
5th Mar 2018, 20:04
Whether or not. But I do recall the night that he accepted the BBC sportsman of the year award (no capitals) from Prince William's wife. His behaviour was ungracious, arrogant and disrespectful. What a Pleb.

charliegolf
5th Mar 2018, 20:07
. The basis for a TUE is to allow a competitor the chance to complete without the adverse effects of a particular condition.


If you have a condition that limits your performance, don't compete. If you suffer from athsma which impairs your performance. Tough.

CG

ORAC
5th Mar 2018, 20:12
If you have a condition that limits your performance, don't compete. If you suffer from athsma which impairs your performance. Tough. The rules are the rules, if you don’t like them, change them, but don’t complain when those who obey them win.

Private jet
5th Mar 2018, 20:50
I'm not surprised. Professional sport is a branch of showbusiness, the business of show. The big rewards in terms of cash as well as kudos come from winning, & continuing to win. The "also rans" are soon dropped and forgotten about to be replaced by new contenders. Look at the recent winter Olympics, the UK won 5 medals at an effective cost of £5.5 million each. Pointless to just about everyone apart from those involved of course. I imagine the womens curling team (who came 4th) are feeling a bit nervous about their future funding i.e they might need to get a real, useful job.

good egg
5th Mar 2018, 20:51
If you have a condition that limits your performance, don't compete. If you suffer from athsma which impairs your performance. Tough.

CG

Hmmmmm, so apply that thought to your life. You start off happy and healthy. You pursue your chosen career path. Just as you’re reaching your peak you are struck by something...

Do you (a) Tough it out but, without faith in your over-riding ability to be a world-beater, know that you’ll effectively be an “also-ran”;

(b) Take advice and choose the best possible course in pursuit of being the best you can be (legally); or,

(c) Something else?

It seems to me that you speak absolute pish CG, and that you have no understanding at all of what it takes to be the best in any field.

Please do correct me if I’m wrong CG but you strike me as another armchair no-it-all who has no sympathy, let alone empathy, for those who strive for more, despite the hurdles placed in front of them.

I like to think I’m a “people-person” and yet I struggle to empathise with you so perhaps you can elaborate?

Why is it that you think it’s OK to quit when the going gets tough? Why wouldn’t you take (legal) opportunities to be better at what you do?

In my opinion it says far more about your psyche than it does about BW, or anyone else who’s career you like to cast aspersions on...

charliegolf
5th Mar 2018, 22:07
The rules are the rules, if you don’t like them, change them, but don’t complain when those who obey them win.

Agreed. But these are supposed to be elite athletes. They maybe should't need medicine?

CG

charliegolf
5th Mar 2018, 22:13
Hmmmmm, so apply that thought to your life. You start off happy and healthy. You pursue your chosen career path. Just as you’re reaching your peak you are struck by something...

Do you (a) Tough it out but, without faith in your over-riding ability to be a world-beater, know that you’ll effectively be an “also-ran”;

(b) Take advice and choose the best possible course in pursuit of being the best you can be (legally); or,

(c) Something else?

It seems to me that you speak absolute pish CG, and that you have no understanding at all of what it takes to be the best in any field.

Please do correct me if I’m wrong CG but you strike me as another armchair no-it-all who has no sympathy, let alone empathy, for those who strive for more, despite the hurdles placed in front of them.

I like to think I’m a “people-person” and yet I struggle to empathise with you so perhaps you can elaborate?

Why is it that you think it’s OK to quit when the going gets tough? Why wouldn’t you take (legal) opportunities to be better at what you do?

In my opinion it says far more about your psyche than it does about BW, or anyone else who’s career you like to cast aspersions on...

Point me to my aspersions you non-reader t**t (that was just me doing the incredibly rude thing btw- like what you did). Now, those aspirations? Oh, who mentioned BW?

CG

PDR1
5th Mar 2018, 22:20
Agreed. But these are supposed to be elite athletes. They maybe should't need medicine?

I would like to compete in the Tours-de-France but I suffer from some cardiovascular conditions that mean I wouldn't be able to compete on an equal basis. So presumably I should be allowed to compete using my old VF750, and when I wipe the floor with Wiggins I'll be a hero...

PDR

racedo
5th Mar 2018, 23:49
Given that football is the world's most popular sport ( participants perhaps not, spectators most certainly ) I'm surprised that there have been virtually no incidents flagged of football players using performance enchncing drugs.
..

Right and no club is involved in "stretching" youner players to make them taller either.

Couple of Arsenal fans flagged up one of their players who seemingly went on injured list unexplained for a number of months, "groin strain" was clubs expression.
Detox from drugs was theirs with indication it is common, once a player goes on a "clubs injured list", no testing is allowed.
Explains many footballers injuries.

racedo
5th Mar 2018, 23:51
Amazing how many Norwegian Winter Olympic athletes are Ashmatic...........

Hussar 54
6th Mar 2018, 00:09
Right and no club is involved in "stretching" youner players to make them taller either.

Couple of Arsenal fans flagged up one of their players who seemingly went on injured list unexplained for a number of months, "groin strain" was clubs expression.
Detox from drugs was theirs with indication it is common, once a player goes on a "clubs injured list", no testing is allowed.
Explains many footballers injuries.


One of my business colleagues is a tennis freak.

He swears the same scenario which you describe is very common amongst the top tennis players also, especially one of the former World #1 who's regularly absent, injured, for a few months at a time, but seems to win quite frequently / easily when he does play.

wiggy
6th Mar 2018, 07:35
I can perhaps see a longish time out being an answer to someone who has had a binge on recreational drugs, but for a lot of performance enhancing drugs - don’t know...

The big problems for the testers was when the docs and chemists twigged how to micro dope athletes with the likes of EPO because with the testing techniques at the time the athlete only remained “hot” for a matter of a few hours.....hence the supposed no notice out of completion testing and the “whereabouts” rule.

Tyler Hamilton’s book “The Secret Race” describes in graphic detail about what can happen in a household if someone does arrive at the front door unexpectedly....read that and you’ll understand why some are a bit sceptical about the “didn’t hear the doorbell” stories you get from some of the BBCs favourites.

Anyhow, in latest news there seems to be a boxer using the “ Contador Defence”


https://mobile.twitter.com/CanvasBoxing/status/970769266185302016/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fuproxx.com%2Fsports%2Fcanelo-alvarez-positive-drug-test-mexico-meat-golovkin-fight%2F...

EGLD
6th Mar 2018, 08:06
For something like Bradley Wiggins to be accused of non ethical behaviour by a bunch of MPs is hypocrisy of the highest level

Hahaha, incredible attempt at a defense - shoot the messenger

1. Are you a GP?
2. Define ILL.

My credentials are irrelevant, a handy report has been produced

“From the evidence that has been received by the committee, we believe that this powerful corticosteroid [triamcinolone] was being used to prepare Bradley Wiggins, and possibly other riders supporting him, for the Tour de France,” the report reads. “The purpose of this was not to treat medical need, but to improve his power-to-weight ratio ahead of the race

ATNotts
6th Mar 2018, 08:31
Amazing how many Norwegian Winter Olympic athletes are Ashmatic...........

Yes, curious isn't it - and at least two (Martin Jonsrud Sundby and Therese Johaug) have incurred bans, albeit fairly short ones, as a result of misuse of asthma drugs, something that Wiggins have never been, and so far as I understand; and something which the parliamentary committee has been careful to avoid alleging.

It would be entirely reasonable to assume that sports people in many high profile, big money, sports such as Football, American Football, Tennis and Golf are also, as it is alleged, of Wiggins in cycling, sailing close to the wind where infringement of doping regulations is concerned.

And anyway, how often to you hear of independent drug testing of football players inside or outside of competition taking place? Do FIFA and domestic organisations such as the FA have their own rules which circumvent testing?

wiggy
6th Mar 2018, 08:37
For those that actually want to read the supposed “handy report”, it is here:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmcumeds/366/366.pdf

It is not just about cycling.....

But on that part of the report: Whilst there are some real real problems with Sky’s testimony and their audit trail, problems that should rightly raise eyebrows, it does seem a lot of the anti-Wiggins sentiment has been stoked by the “evidence” given by a mystery anonymous witness......Of course there’s nobody either in the Sky team or related to anybody in the Sky team who has ever had an axe to grind with Wiggins...is there :oh:

alwayzinit
6th Mar 2018, 09:29
The rights or wrongs of what Mr Wiggins has done do not concern me much, however, what does concern me is it appears that Mr Wiggins is not being allowed to know who are his accusers.
So far what has happened is Mr Wiggins has allegedly done this or that. This has somehow been taken as fact, without proof or redress.
Also, how is it that a group of politicians, people who we all know have the highest moral standing, can effectively slander someone and nobody bats an eye?

PDR1
6th Mar 2018, 09:53
...and now we find he plays fast and loose with his taxes (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-bradley-wiggins-put-money-into-shocking-tax-avoidance-plan-8bljpsxkt) too...

But of course as a professional I'm told he is allowed to do things which if done by an amateur would be classed as "cheating", so presumably this applies to his tax affairs as well...

PDR

wiggy
6th Mar 2018, 10:17
Oh good grief..So lets now jump all over allegations about his tax affairs.......high profile British cyclist takes measures to avoid exposure to UK Taxes..just like (rightly or wrongly) lots of high profile British sports people...

FWIW I know (from personal experience having met him briefly a couple of times) That Sir B W can come across a bit of an a*** at times, but as alwayzinit points out he has been placed in an impossible situation by the Select Committee..and BW does have a bit of a point when he says he seems to have less rights than someone accused of a very serious criminal offence..

The media have never warmed to Bradley Wiggins, a lot of what you are now seeing in print is pay back.....

Buster15
6th Mar 2018, 15:35
If you have a condition that limits your performance, don't compete. If you suffer from athsma which impairs your performance. Tough.

CG

What a profound statement to make. I really think that you are onto something there. You may well have solved the NHS funding crisis at a stroke.
If someone has a broken leg - tough. Don't walk.
If someone has learning difficulties - tough don't learn.
Brilliant. I just wish that I knew your name so I could recommend you for the Nobel Peace Prize.
It wouldn't be Richard Head by any chance aka Dick.

charliegolf
6th Mar 2018, 16:35
It wouldn't be Richard Head by any chance aka Dick.

Yet you're the one being the rude t***. These are the elite, the top of the tree, they get there by being physiologically a cut above the rest of us, and working like hell on top of that. My position is this: if you cannot be an elite athlete with the talents God/Darwinism gave you (like me) you do your stuff at a lower level (like I did-very low). So if you suffer from a medical condition, then sadly, that's life. I'm not interested in legal/illegal/immoral arguments in this thread, I'm saying, do it like Roger Bannister did.

CG

Buster15
6th Mar 2018, 18:26
Yet you're the one being the rude t***. These are the elite, the top of the tree, they get there by being physiologically a cut above the rest of us, and working like hell on top of that. My position is this: if you cannot be an elite athlete with the talents God/Darwinism gave you (like me) you do your stuff at a lower level (like I did-very low). So if you suffer from a medical condition, then sadly, that's life. I'm not interested in legal/illegal/immoral arguments in this thread, I'm saying, do it like Roger Bannister did.

CG

Dick. But fortunately life is not like that. Elite sports people are permitted to compete against their peers on a 'level playing field'. That is the purpose of a LEGAL TUE. It takes more than talent and good genes to reach the top of your sport. Circa 80% of it is dedication to training and without legal medication some would simply not be able to train at the required level.
All perfectly legal and within the rules of the sport. Why should some be denied that opportunity?

EGLD
6th Mar 2018, 18:36
The rights or wrongs of what Mr Wiggins has done do not concern me much, however, what does concern me is it appears that Mr Wiggins is not being allowed to know who are his accusers.
So far what has happened is Mr Wiggins has allegedly done this or that. This has somehow been taken as fact, without proof or redress.
Also, how is it that a group of politicians, people who we all know have the highest moral standing, can effectively slander someone and nobody bats an eye?

It's just sport mate, no-one really cares, not even me and I started the thread