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NowThatsFunny
17th Sep 2016, 08:32
Two "experienced" Q400 FOs from South Africa started a few weeks ago at QantasLink.

Interesting.

SHVC
17th Sep 2016, 09:32
why is it interesting?

Ollie Onion
17th Sep 2016, 10:51
I wonder how many 'experienced' aussie pilots have started at overseas airlines this year?

Square Bear
17th Sep 2016, 10:55
And you back up your "457 Visa" headline with....????

Not to mention the fact that many, many, many Aussies have a job flying in just about every country in the world on some kind of Work Visa or Permit.

Citation2
17th Sep 2016, 11:03
Reciprocity applies

pilotchute
17th Sep 2016, 11:08
Well usually when a country let's in expat pilots there is a shortage of locally qualified people. There is certainly no shortage in Oz of CPL holders with varying levels of experience.

Toruk Macto
17th Sep 2016, 11:11
It's a brave new world .

Snakecharma
17th Sep 2016, 22:12
Regardless of the various cries of there are Aussies in all sorts of countries across the world, the 457 visa program is supposedly intended to only allow experienced workers in a selected range of fields entry into Australia only if a test has been applied that demonstrated that there were no suitable applicants from within Australia.

Skywest did it with the ATR introduction for a bunch of experienced ATR crew and the hook there was there were very few experienced pilots with ATR time and it was a new type and therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.

I don't think that reasoning could be applied to the QantasLink case and given that they have a well established check and training system experienced in training all manner of pilots, including cadets with sod all total time on the Dash, then I can't see the justification for allowing the 457 visas.

With regards Aussies in different countries, most of the countries are ones where the pilots are needed not wanted and they would give the expat pilots the push with the blink of an eye of they could.

Many are in Europe and a much smaller number in the US as a result of family ties that give them passports/right of residency in the respective countries and they have to do all the licensing like normal residents. No free passes in the easa system even for experienced pilots, so for those that went to those countries they worked for it, so good on them.

The US is easier from a licensing perspective but more difficult from an immigration perspective. Even more difficult from a seniority perspective. From what I read on another thread, if you don't have an aviation related bachelors degree you need 12 years of relevant industry experience to qualify for an E3 view, which I gather from my non existent research :) is the US equivalent to our 457. Because of the way the industry works there you are not going to get much credit for your experience in terms of the positions available to you, so you start at the bottom of the list like everyone else and get shit money and shit rosters working for the regional feeders into the mainline carriers and work your way up from there. In fairness it is probably much the same as here in many ways except the salaries paid here are much more substantial than those paid to 'junior' pilots in the US.

I would love to go and be a wide body airbus captain in Europe and take the family and see out my career there but it just ain't going to happen. I don't have the family heritage that gets me an EU passport, I couldn't be arsed doing all the subjects again, and starting as a FO again, so it just ain't going to happen for me, but there are those that are happy to take the bucks in China and not sure why the sandpit is attractive other than shiny wide body aeroplanes but people go there too, but make no mistake if the Chinese or the Emiratis could get rid of expats and crew all their aeroplanes with locals without huge dramas the expats (of all nationalities) would be gone in a heartbeat.

ramble on
18th Sep 2016, 00:03
There is no way that any Australian operator would see the 457 Visa as a way to get experienced and qualified crew at lower wages than paying qualified Australians appropriately.

And similarly, no experienced pilot in their right mind would come to Australia willing to accept work on 457 Visa at wages lower than a qualified Australian would/could accept. Oh, hang on, did you say that after 5 years on a 457 at crap wages I get Australian citizenship? Gee, let me think....

These things just wouldnt happen in Australia.....

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 00:33
Any one on a 457 visa must be paid the same as an Australian, if not report the company. So they will be on the same Qlink award.

South Africa has some smart folk, I assume only both pilots are male. I don't know if they are married to a professional with an occupation on the skills shortage list that qualify for a 457 visa, certainly possible from my understanding of SA.

If the partner of the pilot is issued a 457 visa, the pilot is also issued a 457 visa with full work rights (any kids too). More than half 457 visa holders in Australia are partners and siblings not skilled workers.

So things may not be as they seem, what do your partners do for work, is it a Skilled Shortage area?

Metro man
18th Sep 2016, 00:53
Many countries won't allow foreign first officers or have strict limits on them as F/O positions can be filled by locals eg Malaysia. India doesn't allow upgrades to Captain.

Experienced Commanders are a different matter as often there are very few locals in developing countries with the necessary hours, and big orders for aircraft which need start flying as soon as they arrive in country eg Indonesia.

Was this job advertised and no suitably qualified locals found ? With a minimum of CPL I/R M/E required for the right seat I doubt it it.

Berealgetreal
18th Sep 2016, 01:01
therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.

No, that's not the version I got from a Virgin mate that was on my induction way back. He was an experienced ATR driver along with others that had ATR C&T that wanted to be involved for whatever reason. There were 50 applicants all up.

I guess the big issue is that if you or I go to the EU with 10,000 hours on a 737 we will have to start the licence from scratch with zero prior experience recognised. I think EU to AU is a case of a Air Law, medical and a sim ride for the conversion.

My number one gripe with the industry is the lack of portability of the licence and medicals. It's pretty pathetic.

Berealgetreal
18th Sep 2016, 01:07
Off topic for Snakecharma. You could always work with Korean that base you where you want in Europe a fly you business to and from work (Seoul). It's a contract that's come a long way.

Metro man may know more than me however.

Snakecharma
18th Sep 2016, 01:31
Thanks Bereal...

I have a few mates in Korean.

I have a left hand seat in a wide body in an Aussie airline so until our exalted leadership send us broke I will stick around but it was an ambition to fly out of Europe.

I am too old and too set up with kids and schools etc and frankly too lazy to do all the work required :)

Re the ATR experienced people in Virgin - if I understood what you wrote you had some mates already in virgin who wanted to be involved but didn't get an opportunity. Skywest was the company that set up the operation with the 457's and they were not owned by Virgin at that stage, so the whole leave without pay, training up replacements in virgin stuff would have been far too hard given the other stuff going on at the time

Berealgetreal
18th Sep 2016, 01:48
EASA:
Likewise, books out for 15 Easa ATPL's only if I have to. Ridiculous scenario. Been like that for decades, it's getting worse. They don't even recognise left seat jet time anymore.

ATR:
At the time there was a request for expressions of interest for the ATR. 50 applied, some with ATR experience some not. 457 visas were the end result.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 01:52
I stand corrected by Fact Checker on more unskilled 457 visa holders than skilled visa holders.

But the point is if these 2 pilots got 457 visa because their spouse's qualifications and experience, these two pilots have the exact same right to any job any other Australian has. Be sure they will have spread the word back in SA.


What are the work entitlementsfor immediate (accompanying) family members?
Whilst subclass 457 primary visa holders areapproved to meet specific skill needs, their spouses (http://www.immi.gov.au/skilled/skilled-workers/sbs/) and other working age dependentsmay work across industries in skilled or unskilled occupations during theirstay in Australia.
At the endof the most recent quarter, March 2016, there were 97,766 primary 457 visaholders and 79,624 secondary visa holders — a total of 177,390.

VH DSJ
18th Sep 2016, 02:02
As for the South Africans coming to Aus to fly a turbo-prop, it's an 'interesting' choice as there are many other options out there these days to move into a jet from a turbo-prop such as CX, EK and the US regionals if they can get the work visa.

Perhaps QLink's thinking is that if these guys forego these other opportunities to come to Australia to work for Qlink, then they most probably will be long term stayers at the Link and will get years out of their service than someone from Aus GA who will use Qlink as a stepping stone to CX or EK.

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 02:51
The same rule should apply worldwide.
"If" the Airline cannot find suitable applicants to fill the seats then they can offer it to foreigners.

That's why Aussies are working overseas, because CX EK etc cannot find enough locals either suitable or indeed willing to fly, end of story full stop.

Now, are you really telling me there are no suitable applicants to sit in the right seat of a Dash 8 in Australia?

Rubbish.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 03:52
ACMS,sSo if your wife is a heart surgeon and yourself experienced pilot and your wifegets a great opportunity to work in Australia on a 457 and you both decide tocome to Australia.

Although you have full work rights, you cannot work because you are a foreignerand Australia has pilots thus and get priority?

Basically shutting down any "married skilled workers" ever coming to Australia bringing the skills we need -yep that's smart.

PoppaJo
18th Sep 2016, 04:05
Don't need much of a stepping stone to get into the likes of EK now.

I know of two who went from a Metro and Saab to 777 FO.

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 06:02
Band a Lot----well that would be a family decision you would have to weigh up and no different to the decisions Australian families make when the Husband/Wife get a jobs in CX, EY, QR, KA, EK or NH.

Oh and is Heart Surgeon on the 457 list? Would the foreign qualifications for that even be recognized in Australia? There must be enough qualified Australians to fill the positions anyway.

Nope I'm sorry but you just can't use that excuse, if your wife can get a nice high paid job in Australia great, but that shouldn't give you the right to come here and disadvantage our young struggling Pilots out of a good Job.

Maybe after a couple of years in Australia you and the family might then get a residency visa to enable you to stay permanently and work? Then no problems.

Life's tough, make your choice.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 06:26
Crickey some very self-centred interests here. Australia is built on immigration it requires immigration and often they get PR but never take up citizenship.

In some counties an expat partner gets work rights others not. Some need to offer work rights and other benefits like tax others not.

The decision on what is best for country will benefit some sectors and not others in the bigger picture the object is get the best outcome for country not a very small sub group of the country.

Now we from op we only have to go on 2 South Africans, no conformation they are 457 holders (Primary or Secondary) or maybe they are married to Australian citizens we don't know.

I do know I am a bit disappointed in self-centred interest from pilots that have about zero understanding of immigration and work rights laws of Australia, I assume with same position that my adopted kids should be kicked out of Private Education as soon as a Australian citizen wants a place at that school as the class is full - they have been here 2 years and 3-4 years until citizenship is possible.

I have no idea what is on the list, it was used as an example.

rmcdonal
18th Sep 2016, 07:48
QLink went to SA specifically to recruit, these are not just random pilots who happen to be from SA. This is also not the first time they have been over there to recruit.
I certainly get that immigration to fill certain roles is a good thing, but roles at QLink can be filled by local pilots without needing to go overseas to find them.

AerocatS2A
18th Sep 2016, 08:00
Are there actually suitably qualified pilots who want to work for QLink? I was contacted out of the blue by QLink and asked if I would be interested in flying a Dash 8. Given that I have had no contact with them before at all, and that they only found me by trawling through LinkedIn profiles, I would think they are genuinely struggling to get people.

Berealgetreal
18th Sep 2016, 08:05
EK? Do people still go there?

Work like a slave, pay that's hardly life changing and days off in 40c heat.

Sue Ridgepipe
18th Sep 2016, 08:15
Perhaps QLink's thinking is that if these guys forego these other opportunities to come to Australia to work for Qlink, then they most probably will be long term stayers at the Link and will get years out of their service than someone from Aus GA who will use Qlink as a stepping stone to CX or EK.
If they offered people a decent career path maybe they wouldn't have those problems.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 08:21
Ok,

Time for a little bit of proof, not I heard.

"QLink went to SA specifically to recruit"

Certainly no fact here other than what I posted about IMMI stuff.

Love to see fact and figures than un-employable pilots crying. (Some are exactly that)

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 08:33
Qlink bond - Successful Trainee applicants will be required to enter a Deed of Agreement with QantasLink in relation to the costs of the Trainee Program and will be bonded to the Company for a period of four years.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 08:51
This from another forum as to why a bit of depth maybe good for all. (it is copy paste)


** It is an interesting topic to debate,but the answer really is that there are good pilots from most countries just asthere as bad pilots from most countries. At my present company there are pilotsfrom 70 different countries and I train many of them so I do see a good crosssection of pilots.

Pilots from the USA ( I am one ) tend to have better systems knowledge ofaircraft and better handling skills. They can, however, be very sloppyprocedurally and less careful in normal operations.

Pilots from Australia and New Zealand are very good procedurally and good athandling with excellent theoretical knowledge, but can be too uptight in thecockpit and too procedural during non-normal or emergency situations. This canresult in "out thinking " themselves to the point that they are slowto get the airplane on the ground or brief you to death as they fly right intoa mountain.

Pilots from the UK and South Africa are a good compromise between the abovetwo. The British pilots I fly with are great guys, very professional yetrelaxed.

Contrary to some of the above comments, UAE pilots ( and pilots from the MiddleEast in general ) are quite competent. The areas they could improve on arelateral thinking and handling.

Pilots from Asia are very good procedurally and know the manuals thoroughly,but again handling is often weak and they tend to underperform in an emergency

** While I have not been as directly involved with training multi cultures asyou have, my experience in working with pilots from around the world on variousprojects leads me to similar conclusions. I am a bit surprsed that the Kiwi andOz pilots are not higher, as their culture has such low"power-distance" standards, that I would think they would not behesitant to do what is necessary to get on the ground.

I think a real advantage that the U.K. pilots have is, beyond their culture,their training at a basic level is so far superior to ours. I have sat in onprivate pilot oral exams by U.K. examiners, and I was pretty impressed. Theyreally get a very solid foundation, and do not seem to be fed so many of themyths that U.S. general aviation is full of, when it comes to aerodynamic theory,etc., etc.

** I agree the Ozmates and Kiwis and a bit of a conundrum. So relaxed and laidback on the ground, yet so uptight at work. Granted that is a widegeneralization and there are certainly exceptions to the rule. Yet it can beseen in other aspects of Australian life ( ever gone through customs searchesthere ? ). It's not the " put another shrimp on the barbie " countrythat so many think it is.

I prefer flying with the Brits far more than the Aussies. Make a little mistakewith aAn Aussie sitting next to you and it's, " Mate, that isn't how thebook says to do it. We might have to write a report about that ". Thatcreates an air of tension in the flight deck. While flying with a Brit it wouldgo more like, " ha ha, I did that myself last week, your buying the firstround at the pub now ". Far better CRM environment and far more relaxedwork atmosphere.AA

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 08:57
This has nothing to do with the relative abilities of different nationalities.

Stop the superfluous crap.

It's nothing new for Nations to protect their own people with regards to work in their country, as they should.

This comes down to facts about Australian Pilot availability to join QLink in Australia to fly a Dash8 as an FO. It has nothing to do with a International Willy waving contest.

Snakecharma
18th Sep 2016, 09:16
Band a lot, very interesting précis of the various nationalities.

As an Aussie I unfortunately have to agree with your assessment.

I think this is indicative of our whole society not just the pilot group. Drive 1km/h over the speed limit and you are killing baby seals. Have a cold and flu tablet before you go to work and you run the risk of being zapped by casa random drug testing.

You can't go into a kids playground if you are a male as you are a pedo, and kids can't go into a playground unless they are wrapped in a sumo suit to protect them from skinning a knee or breaking a nail.

Pilots can't go through security with a nail clipper as they may hold it to their own throats and "take control" of the aircraft - reminds me of the scene from blazing saddles "drop it or the pilot gets it!" As he holds a nail clipper to his own throat.

We (in this country) have become so scared of breaking the rules that we have effectively trained lateral thinking out of everyone, airline crews in particular. A generality I know but apt nonetheless.

The country's screwed as is the airline industry and many other industries.

Personally I blame the lawyers.

It sounds like I have a big downer on the country, but it is home and I need to live with it as it is as I can't change it

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 09:27
All very nice and possibly true sentiments but they are not relevant to the thread topic.
Let me ask you this, would you like your Kids to be able to get a flying job in an Australian Airline ahead of someone from another Country?

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 09:58
"Would you like your Kids to be able to get a flying job in an Australian Airline ahead of someone from another Country?"

I have some kids from Africa, one born here and 2 from Ukraine, my wife currently not working is very well educated and at uni here in AU all my kids in private school.

I plan and hope that my kids get a job on merit, in any country they can legally work.

My comments started on topic of 457 visa and have stayed mostly to that, not many have posted much here other than pure Australian Pilots Protection Environment Needed.

Oh yes I am born bread Australian citizen.

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 10:15
Yes fantastic, they have residency and a right to live and work in Australia I assume, that would be their earned right.

Not everyone in Australia aspires to work overseas and many many cannot anyway simply because they are NOT allowed to.

We should look after our own Citizens first no matter what their chosen profession, that's not racism or discrimination in any form at all. If we legitimately cannot fill those positions then yes we can look overseas.

It's not a hard concept to grasp surely, other countries do just that.

I find it very hard to believe there are no suitable Australian Pilots around that would be quite competent flying for QLink, I know a lot of Pilots that would love the job.

rmcdonal
18th Sep 2016, 10:28
"Time for a little bit of proof, not I heard."
And how exactly should I go about that? Provide receipts?

How about I know who they sent, and I flew with some of the guys they recruited from the first time they did it.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 10:30
A secondary 457 visa holder has same rights ACMS, you just can not concept that - sadly.

Look after a country, not a big headed sub sector of industry - that could if required be filled 100% with 457 visa holders in about 6 months if required.


Possibly that way due stubbornness of the 80's of pilots and their special rights above all others back then as a back up for governments now.

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 10:33
Honestly hear say, a few emails or an ad is required.

"Time for a little bit of proof, not I heard."
And how exactly should I go about that? Provide receipts?

How about I know who they sent, and I flew with some of the guys they recruited from the first time they did it.

rmcdonal
18th Sep 2016, 10:49
"Honestly hear say, a few emails or an ad is required."
Then I guess it will just remain a rumour on this rumour site...

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 11:06
With a strong hint of - Australian Pilots Protection Environment Needed.

Other industries know as poor bugger me.

Sicofit
18th Sep 2016, 11:33
What's the issue, foreigners have been in ever since the 80's and there hasn't been any worries about displacing Australian nationals.
I don't think the public could care less and nor would you unless you lost your job.Get over it.

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 11:49
Well then, that makes it alright......

Band a Lot
18th Sep 2016, 12:09
"notrelevant to the thread topic."

457visa FOs started at QantasLink


42 posts I think ACMS should list what posts are relevant to post "457 visa FOs started at QantasLink"

Simple question not a trick one. when one can not answer, is why they are often over looked for a position, they just don't understand they will never be suitable but believe have a right.

Snakecharma
18th Sep 2016, 12:54
ACMS, the discussion has diverged a bit, but to answer your question I would prefer my kids get preference for a job in this country over someone specifically imported from overseas.

I don't have an issue with anyone who is legally here, whether they have citizenship, right of residency or a spousal visa, because they are residents of this country and therefore, in my opinion, able to compete on the same basis as everyone else.

A company going to a different country with the specific intent of shopping for employees to fill a position back home is an entirely different story and if there are people in this country who can do the job it shouldn't be allowed. It would appear, on face value, that QantasLink specifically went to South Africa to recruit SA Express pilots to fly as first officers in Australia. If this is actually the case then I don't believe it should have happened and the government should not have granted visas to the pilots concerned - no offence to the individuals.

Same applies to another airline that had a habit of importing COO's from the good ole US of A. There are plenty of people in this country that could have filled the role but the government granted a 457 for the people concerned.

ACMS
18th Sep 2016, 14:17
Yes! I agree with most of what you say.

Other people in here seem happy to see our kids lose out to foreigners for their opportunity or shot at an Airline dream job in their own country.

Sad, just sad.

tail wheel
19th Sep 2016, 00:45
Three pages of posts and no comment that conclusively confirms these alleged QantasLink FOs are here on a Temporary Business (Long Stay) Sub Class 457 Visa?

A 457 Visa is not the only key to Australia's front door. Between 1996-97 and 2014-15 Australia accepted 2.8 million permanent immigrants (http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1516/Quick_Guides/MigrationStatistics) in the following categories:

Family........................822,079
Skilled.....................1,597,192
Special Eligibility.........347,759
Humanitarian..............259,269
Total.......................2,767,030

Additionally, 5.2 million temporary entries were granted:

Overseas Students....3,904,664
Sub Class 457...........1,286,840
Total........................5,191,504

Despite the protestations of various organisations including the Union movement, Greens etc, only 16.2% of all those who entered Australia with temporary or permanent residential status, entered on a 457 Visa.

Statistically these alleged overseas FOs may very well be permanent immigrants, spouse or partner of skilled workers, spouse/partner of tertiary students or extended family of Australian citizens?

And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia; be paid at or above the remuneration of a similarly qualified Australian pilot doing the same job; pay their own private medical insurance (as they do not have access to Medibank); be competent in English; and pre qualified license requirements with CASA.

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 01:28
Tail wheel, almost correct.

"And if they are in Australia working as pilots on a 457 Visa, to comply with Visa requirements they must have special skills in demand in Australia"

All members of the family get the 457 visa, only the primary applicant has to have special skills and meet other requirements. The rest of the family are secondary holders of a 457 visa, the husband or wife (or adult kids) as it maybe have full work rights and can work in skilled or unskilled jobs.

I am not saying that is the case here, but it is certainly possible.

I would like to see more transparency on 457 visas applied for and issued perhaps on a dedicated website. But then I would like the 400% increase in last few years be removed from the Partner Visas fees.

I did see on a QLINK add that minimum requirement was Australian citizenship/passport or a Kiwi with residence - sort of hard to comply on a 457!

Dark Knight
19th Sep 2016, 02:14
Further more the Australian company must have in place training enabling Australian citizens to improve their skills, upgrade or undertake such training to fill any positions.

The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.

It is a BIG competitive world out there, accept or adapt

True however, protection of a countries citizens and a country is a primary duty/obligation of Government and via their Government citizens may grant others the privilege of entering their country first giving these aliens permission to do so.
Such permission is incumbent upon these persons entering a country is in accordance with the permissions given and their respect and obedience of the laws and customs of the country.

The same provisions apply to Australians going or attempting to work in an overseas country.

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 02:56
The Temporary Work (Skilled) (subclass 457) visa is designed to enable employers to address labour shortages by bringing in genuinely skilled workers where they cannot find an appropriately skilled Australian.

or

The primary objective of the 457 Visa scheme is initially to protect Australians and Australian employment however, where there is a GENUINE need provision is made allowing employment of persons from another country for a specified period of time.

I guess it is hard to find if as my wife say's it's a man look. The reason 457 visa's were introduced was for employers particularly remote that could not get staff even when many of the "skills" shortage were on the dole in the city. The number of 457 cooks (not chefs) says it all.

A reason that some Australian applicants are found not satisfactory could be due the large number of personal in the selection process and the small number of feeder companies left. If I ring a director of one of these feeders to the regionals airlines, I don't know how truthful the reference is, if I know the director possible worked for them I will be more likely to get a straight honest answer. Busting bonds or leaving shortly after a type rating a few jobs back, might not go down very well. I guess pprune and FB catch a few out too.

I did search for a master list of Companies able to sponsor 457's it is not available to public sadly.

VH-FTS
19th Sep 2016, 03:06
FACT (1) QantasLink went to South Africa to head-hunt 'experienced' individuals to fill forecast future Command shortage, not CPL/IR
FACT (2) Individuals have significant experience, including Q400 and Jet Command
FACT (3) QantasLink need more than what they initially found and are on their way back to interview more...and offer 457 Visas


It would be interesting to know what promises have been made to these South Africans about commands. Are they willing to sit around for a few years as an FO, or is there an expectation (spun by the recruitment team) of a quick command? Despite the forecast exodus, I believe there are still a long list of FOs available for an upgrade - will the SA guys with experience be promoted out of seniority? That's when things will get very interesting.

Dark Knight
19th Sep 2016, 04:39
will the SA guys with experience be promoted out of seniority? That's when things will get very interesting.

By which time it will be to late!

Reference to SA and without being unkind, SA is rooted (the SA people will confirm this) and the Whiteman wants out as preference for all jobs is given to others with the living situation having deteriorated such that living there is considered more than unsafe.

The SA's have set up a significant networking system throughout the world and within the many companies around the globe where employment has been obtained. This system is such it advises where employment is available, how to obtain this and all the necessary ways and means of obtaining immigration approvals including the circumvention of any rules as required, etc. It additionally provides all other information re salaries, housing, education, etc, etc.

Where SA's are employed they ensure where possible, infiltrating into management using this knowledge or positions to further assist SA's to leave SA.

Any or all of this may be researched where Google is your friend.

There is more than sufficient evidence to support Australian companies are circumventing the 457 Visa process allowing significant cost savings. Additionally, having an employee under a 457 visa allows the employer to dictate the employment terms with the underlying threat of non compliance meaning withdrawal of employer sponsorship.

It is all very well to debate this issue within PPrune ad infinitum however, unless Aussie pilots recognize they are again (continuing?) to be screwed and make an effort to prevent this, the situation will continue to deteriorate.

Writing, interviewing your local MP is a good start (include all your State Senators) however, a more positive action will be to use your professional association, the AFAP, which has the ways and means to undertake positive action.

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 04:53
Dark Knight, this part is not correct it was a claim prior to Abbott being elected and no evidence put forward to support it.

There is more than sufficient evidence to support Australian companies are circumventing the 457 Visa process allowing significant cost savings. Additionally, having an employee under a 457 visa allows the employer to dictate the employment terms with the underlying threat of non compliance meaning withdrawal of employer sponsorship.

Why wont bold undo?

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 05:00
Writing, interviewing your local MP is a good start (include all your State Senators) however, a more positive action will be to use your professional association, the AFAP, which has the ways and means to undertake positive action.

This however could get some transparency that is much needed. After reading the last rant from AFAP on 457's I suggest they need a few facts and figures next time if they can - no wonder it was dismissed at a very least a number (34) know pilots have been employed or something without simply having a unfounded cry.

Dark Knight
19th Sep 2016, 06:04
BaL: I can give you a prime example of where this is happening daily in a closely associated workplace. Reading the comments here indicates the 457 Visa system is certainly being circumvented and if researched in the correct places the evidence will be found.

AFAP on 457's I suggest they need a few facts and figures next time if they can The facts and figures need to come from pilots/members; if they do not give them only ranting on PPrune then little will be achieved.

I trust you noted the comments how the SA fraternity operating?

no wonder it was dismissed at a very least a number (34) know pilots have been employed or something without simply having a unfounded cry
Should this be correct (I know of others where circumvention is occouring) then pilots should be hammering on the door of their local Member/Senator and the door of the AFAP getting them to uphold the legislation. If they are not then when their jobs are not available they will have no one to blame but themselves.

Whinging without doing anything does seem to be an Australian trait.

I certainly have given my MP/Senator a good heads up which will be followed up and advised the AFAP.

It is your Job!

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 06:43
Off topic but important to know.

I will be honest and often I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system often. Our group being about 850,000 people far more than 4,000 pilot members and trust me that is not enough votes for your MP or Senator to care. 850K across Australia is not enough.

I did indeed see comments on SA fraternity, about the same as any other group operates. I would expect that new Qantas recruits would have similar education, training, back ground and experience to the ones employing them it is human nature to pick what you know.

Often people don't get a job because they think "I deserve it".

I help people circumvent certain parts of the visa system because - two Senators offices told me "we need to leave a kid behind" as security deposit for reason to return for my fiancé and kids to visit Australia (we had 2 previous refused)to meet my kids and Australia.

So I know there are problems with the system, but the 457 area is not the main problem being told to leave a kid behind is worse IMO.

neville_nobody
19th Sep 2016, 08:04
It is a BIG competitive world out there, accept or adapt

Except Australians have very limited access to other pilot labour markets, especially USA and Europe. Add to this the availabity of jobs in Australia is quite limited and jobs at airlines competitive. Making them even more competitive by accessing pilots which can obtain experience alot easier than anyone in Australia can turns the whole situation into a farce.

ramble on
19th Sep 2016, 08:44
Many corporate GA operators take advantage of this and employ "experienced" foreign crews on the 457 Visa/ 5 year and one day long leash.

Driving the conditions and opportunities for young locals down the drain.

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 08:50
Neville, your post sort of says we are a bit slow here and it takes us time to get experience, we don't have the exposure of international pilots .


So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".


I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.

Band a Lot
19th Sep 2016, 08:54
Ramble it is 4 years, they need to be paid under same conditions and pay as others, if not it is massive simple back pay even after they leave (ask Fairwork).

Conditions can not be driven down - if you have facts REPORT it.

neville_nobody
19th Sep 2016, 12:07
Neville, your post sort of says we are a bit slow here and it takes us time to get experience, we don't have the exposure of international pilots .


So wait for us or pick us because we are less exposed, and it is our right and we know better than "them".


I actually believe if 457's in Pilots (not aviation) were standard for all airlines in Australia, aviation in Australia would be a better place. Seniority and rights never out way top person for the job, our government(s) of many years now are prop of that - we have for some leaders now CP's Career Politicians find them on CPRuNe, sadly no rewind button on that mob.

We are not slow we just have a deep labour market relative to the jobs on offer hence the higher total time requirements to be competitive.

The issue is now, as shown by the Skywest exercise, is that the regulator seems to view time on type in isolation. Hence you have the situation where someone comes from a country where jobs are easy to get with say 500 total time and walks into an airline because 300 of that is on type. Meanwhile Australians have no access to that experience. Your average pilot in Australia is not going to be let near a big turboprop with a few hundred hours.

If we do as you say and allow foreigners in it will subsequently destroy flying training and GA in this country as people just won't learn to fly if the chance of getting an airline job is so slim

StudentInDebt
19th Sep 2016, 13:51
Are you claiming that pilots with 500 hours TT and 300 ATR were employed by Skywest on 457 visas or is that a hypothetical situation based solely on your fears?

Toruk Macto
19th Sep 2016, 22:43
Solution would be to travel to that country and do 300 hours on type and apply to Skywest ?

Out_Bush
19th Sep 2016, 22:43
Slight topic drift.

Another visa issue is within the GA industry. I know there are some so called "backpackers" working as pilots. These pilots have gained their CASA CPLs in Australia and do not have the right to work here after their student visas expire. The "loophole" is to apply for a working holiday visa (417/462), so that they are have the rights to work. What's wrong with that I hear some say? But they have a working visa right? Well as a 417/462 visa holder:

- must be a genuine visitor who wants to have a holiday in Australia
- it enables young travellers to have an extended holiday and earn money through short-term employment.

Key word is "extended holiday", not make a living in Australia working for more than 6 months with any employer because they are a BACKPACKER. To be eligible for this visa they are meant to travel the country as a tourist, according to the department of immigration.

How many CPL holders have done it tough? Waiting it out for a start? It just bugs me that this is even happening at the bottom of the barrel. There are already plenty of CPL holders out there will to go through GA, not to mention sausage factories pumping out more pilots via this ridiculous fee-help scheme.

Understandable if they gain the rights to work with a defacto visa BEFORE they start flying, but there shouldn't be a back way via the working holiday visa. I know of a pilot who has no manage to stay in the country indefinitely initially through the 417/462 visa at the GA level.

As for those Aussies working overseas, the majority would be working in a country that employs expats because their own qualified citizens wouldn't be able to fill the positions, OR, these pilots have American/European heritage (dual passports or though parents and grandparents).

pacman3
20th Sep 2016, 03:45
I don't see the fuss about the visa issues how many ozi pilots are working overseas

Band a Lot
20th Sep 2016, 05:50
Out Bush, you must have stumbbled across about the only case of this in relation to a pilot.

I think I know the full story. My guess a love story that started whilst an Australian was in another country with reciprocal "Work Holiday Visa". She met this guy (now a pilot) shortly before the end of her WHV in X country, they want to continue being together but she must return to Australia.

He then applies for a Student Visa in Australia to do CPL and can legally work 20 hrs a week. At the end of CPL and Student Visa about to expire, they still have not raised the $7,000 to apply for a Partner Visa.

WHV visa is cheap and then couple still get to live in the same country, so they apply and are granted, working "Bush" can increase the WHV by a year. So the couple now have up to 2 years to save the +$10,000 required to live together on a permanent basis.

The requirements of meeting the Partner Visa either married or defacto are very tough and require living together for 12 months. So the above case is often used.

It is very sad that an Australian Citizen fell in love with a pilot, for you - but to get multiple employers (none more than 6 months) he must be a hell of a new CPL guy!!!

Out_Bush
20th Sep 2016, 07:27
Close but not quite. The order of events are as follows:

Gains CPL on student visa
Works on a WHV as a pilot
Then meets partner after a decent stint as a pilot

The loophole with the 6 month restriction for any employer is that if it is casual, it does not apply.

Band a Lot
20th Sep 2016, 09:55
"The loophole with the 6 month restriction for any employer is that if it is casual, it does not apply."

Incorrect info here - it is both the employer and employee to know the rules of engagement (employment). Under no circumstance can a WHV holder work more than 6 months for the same employer, not even can a waiver be issued for this.

Still seems a one of event. Not to mention a fresh CPL on a temp visa getting a start so fast, I know guys wait years (missing a few facts I think).

My friends go to places like Hawaii for flying lessons at a much cheaper rate than here in AU.

Out_Bush
20th Sep 2016, 11:06
Incorrect info here - it is both the employer and employee to know the rules of engagement (employment). Under no circumstance can a WHV holder work more than 6 months for the same employer, not even can a waiver be issued for this.

Now, I'm not saying you are wrong but I have seen this happen first hand of a pilot working for 12 months or so on a WHV. So either it is a loophole or the employer had employed an employee on the went visa. Said pilot has now moved onto bigger and better things back home.

But I do agree with you and know of a few Aussie pilots waiting 12 months plus for an interview and position.

tail wheel
20th Sep 2016, 23:49
Working in Australia - six months with one employer (https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Work/Empl/WHM-six-months-one-employer)

If you hold a Working Holiday (subclass 417) or Work and Holiday (subclass 462) visa, the main purpose of your visit must be for an extended holiday. You can do any kind of work over the course of your 12 month stay in Australia, however the conditions of your visa limit you to a maximum period of six months work with any one employer, unless you've been given permission by the Department of Immigration and Border Protection to work longer.

First Working Holiday visa (https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/417-):

No, a Student Visa can not be "converted" into a WHV within Australia:

You must be outside Australia when you apply for your first Working Holiday visa and when the visa is decided.

Band a Lot
21st Sep 2016, 01:52
I think not applicable to extend unless he applied a Partner Visa? WHV is an offshore application 10 days in Bali is long enough to apply and be granted (seems they removed the express 48 hr option).

Extending the work limitation
Requests to extend the employment period beyond six months are only granted inexceptional circumstances. An extension may be allowed for a very short periodof time (less than one month) and only if there is very strong justification togrant it.

Exceptional circumstances must be extraordinary andunforeseeable, and relate to an Australian permanent resident, citizen orbusiness.

Exceptional circumstances might include:

•Remaining in your current job for a very short time (less than one month) asyou are critical to the completion of a specialised project that hasunexpectedly gone over time. This generally only relates to highly skilledactivities.
Example: A lawyer in the middle of a trial.
•Performing disaster recovery work following a major disaster.
Example: Clean-up, re-building or emergency management activities following amajor flood.

I have no problemwith this guy doing his CPL here on a student visa, nor do I think anyone has an issue with him paying to fly in Australia! During this he is permitted to do any type of work and be paid not less than the award, for not more than 20 hrs a week.
Depending on what field he does this paid work in will depend on who objects and is offended.

Like wise if same guy then after a brief OS trip, obtains a Work Holiday Visa depending on the field he decides to work will depend on objections in this case the offended group will be pilots - but the fact is he is completely legal for up to 6 months at same employer.

If prior to the 6 months a partner visa application has not been lodged (12+ month process time) and this WHV holder is still working for the same employer the offended group/s of people rapidly grows and said worker is illegal and both worker and employer should face the penalties as applicable.

Anyone that suspects any visa abuse including the 2 cases here should report it to DIBP because if it does get abused it makes it much harder for future genuine applications.

StudentInDebt
21st Sep 2016, 02:08
If you're sure of your facts Out Bush here's how you can report itHow do I report migration fraud?

​If you suspect someone of migration fraud and want to tell us about it, you can:

telephone the Immigration Dob-in Service on 1800 009 623—if you need help with your English we can get an interpreter
fill out the Immigration Dob-in Service Online Report (https://www.border.gov.au/about/contact/immigration-and-citizenship-online-report)
fax your report to 1800 009 849
post your report to:
Information Collection Unit
Department of Border Protection
GPO Box 241
Melbourne VIC 3001
go to any Australian office of the department and make a report in person.Please let us know how you get on.

Band a Lot
21st Sep 2016, 02:53
No need to be sure only suspect - DIBP are quite professional about it, I have only heard that they cross check government departments like ATO first, then check bank deposits. Often the accused are cleared by this time and nobody even know about the report.

Yes I also would encourage to report, but I don't think the reporter gets feed back?

JAMUP
22nd Sep 2016, 09:27
457 Visa has the same right as a PR holder and Qantas Link flies domestic where Aus passport is not needed.

In this case these Two SA pilots must be having Type with more than 1000 hours where they are lucrative for any employer to hire , its true there are more than enough Frozen ATPL holders in Aus looking for jobs and have been applying for QL cadet 1 and 2 programs but unable to land a job, but Type and hours make a massive difference anywhere you go.

I know a Brit was married to a Canadian lived in UK who flew Q400 for for a UK company then Wet leased to an African operator. He based his wife and family in Canada and flew in Mongolia ( commuting ) to build up his hours eventually got his command and moved to Canada on a Spouse visa and joined West Jet. Key there was his hours on type ! This is what young CPL holders lack and will be lacking in future. Untill the operators come up with a solution ( this saves the company lot of training money and adhere to insurance requirements and FOM ) this situation will not change. Thats why p2f has come and marketed so strongly in Asia and the Middle east and Asian carriers train their in house cadets on MPL , Operators cannot wait anymore from the traditional CPL to Type -Line experience.They want Cadets with jet experience to occupy the right hand seat.

Another C208 Amphibian pilot was recruited by a Sea plane company in Australia on a Spouse Visa , he had 800 hours on type in Maldives.
Couple of Philippine pilots on A320 command hours joined Jetstar on Spouse Visas as well.

Band a Lot
23rd Sep 2016, 01:27
This is where I got it from.

"Hold and maintain a current Australian or New Zealand passport with access to all Qantas ports."

QantasLink Recruitment: Attention (http://qantaslink.bfound.net/det-entry.aspx?jobid=123248&CoId=189&rq=1)

Dark Knight
23rd Sep 2016, 02:18
Standard business sponsors:
To sponsor a worker as a standard business sponsor, you must:


be a lawfully operating business
have no relevant adverse information against your business.
If your business is in Australia, you must also:
meet training requirements
demonstrate your commitment to employing local labour
not engage in discriminatory recruitment practices.

Dark Knight
23rd Sep 2016, 02:19
Training requirements:


You must show that you have contributed to the training of Australian workers by providing evidence of meeting the training benchmarks. These benchmarks were introduced to ensure that the employment of workers from outside Australia is not seen as an alternative to training Australian workers.
To be approved as a standard business sponsor, you must either:
meet the training benchmarks if you have traded in Australia for 12 months or more
have an auditable plan to meet the training benchmarks if you have been trading in Australia for less than 12 months.
If you negotiate a labour agreement, your business will have to meet a similar training requirement as part of the agreement.

Dark Knight
23rd Sep 2016, 02:21
Industry training funds:

I
ndustry training funds are statutory authorities responsible for providing funding for training of eligible workers in certain industries, such as construction and mining.
You should contribute to a fund that operates in the same industry as your business. If your industry does not have an eligible training fund, you can contribute to:
a recognised industry body that provides training opportunities for its members, provided they reserve the funds contributed for training
a recognised scholarship fund at a university or TAFE college that supports education or training for Australians in the same or a similar industry as your business.


Examples of ways to meet the training benchmarks:

You can show you meet the training benchmarks in relation to your Australian
employees by:
paying for a formal course of study for your Australian employees
funding a scholarship in a formal course of study approved under the Australian Qualifications Framework for your Australian employees
employing apprentices, trainees or recent graduates on an ongoing basis in numbers proportionate to the size of the business
employing a person who trains your Australian employees
paying external providers to deliver training for Australian employees
providing on-the-job training that is structured with a timeframe and clearly identified increase in the skills at each stage, and demonstrating all of the following:
the learning outcomes of the employee at each stage
how the progress of the Australian employee will be monitored and assessed
how the program will provide additional and enhanced skills
the use of qualified trainers to develop the program and set assessments
the number of people participating and their skill and occupation.
Expenditure that cannot count towards this benchmark includes expenditure for training that is:
delivered on the job, other than on-the-job training that meets the requirements outlined above
confined to only one or a few aspects of the businesses broader operations, unless the training is in the primary business activity
only done by people who are not Australian citizens or permanent residents
only done by people who are principals in the business or their family members
only relating to a very low skill level having regard to the characteristic and size of the business
wages paid to staff for the time they spend at training.

Band a Lot
23rd Sep 2016, 03:20
I think QL pass for training in the following. I have not seen the requirement that other countries have for training Australian for the "position" the foreign worker will be doing. We just require X $'s spent on "training" within the company. That can be Cabin Crew training, Check In staff training anything "training".




paying for a formal course of study for your Australian employees

employing trainees or recent graduates on an ongoing basis in numbers proportionate to the size of the business
employing a person who trains your Australian employees
paying external providers to deliver training for Australian employees
providing on-the-job training that is structured with a timeframe and clearly identified increase in the skills at each stage, and demonstrating all of the following:
the learning outcomes of the employee at each stage
how the progress of the Australian employee will be monitored and assessed
how the program will provide additional and enhanced skills
the use of qualified trainers to develop the program and set assessments
the number of people participating and their skill and occupation.
Expenditure that cannot count towards this benchmark includes expenditure for training that is:
delivered on the job, other than on-the-job training that meets the requirements outlined above
confined to only one or a few aspects of the businesses broader operations, unless the training is in the primary business activity



wages paid to staff for the time they spend at training

Dark Knight
24th Sep 2016, 00:31
What other countries do is totally irrelevant to this discussion to what happens within Australia; (and a diversionary tactic) we are talking about Australian jobs within Australia.
What happens in other countries is their business under their legislation, laws and rules.

We just require X $'s spent on "training" within the company. That can be Cabin Crew training, Check In staff training anything "training".

No! Misconstrues what is within the legislation and what the Act is all about.

The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled; you cannot just pick a part of the legislation, law or rules applying it in isolation.

Band a Lot
24th Sep 2016, 07:03
Dark Knight, I am not being silly but I have not seen the requirement that training is position relevant. I happy to learn new stuff if you can if you supply where it says position training must be carried out. I only see Australians must get training.

"The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled;"

Other countries clearly say the position filled a citizen must be trained for position work permit issued.

You may wish to know Australia has agreements with other countries in relation to work so it could be relevant.

* meet training requirements
* You must show that you have contributed to the training of Australian workers - employment of workers from outside Australia is not seen as an alternative to training Australian workers.

This is what I mean from Fiji.

the name (s) of the local understudy/counterpart and details of a training programme for the training of a citizen(s) of the Fiji Islands in the work for which the application for a work permit is made;


bold not intended it wont unbold.

Dark Knight
25th Sep 2016, 04:07
The training is, and must be, relevant to the positions to be filled

One would think the word `relevant’ (bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand; pertinent) is highly descriptive, accurate and specific particularly when related to the word `positions’ when the positions to be filled is that of pilots including pilots to fly a particular aircraft.
it would certainly be held as such within a court of law.

What other countries do or say is totally irrelevant to what applies under Australian Legislation within Australia; the discussion is about protection of Australian employment and Australians entitlement to this employment.

I, and others, are well aware there are agreements in place with other countries providing work arrangements for non-Australians to work here (NZ is another) however, these all have detailed and specific reasons for these to be in place. They all have specific restrictions, rules and arrangements totally applicable to each and every one of these.

Again, this is irrelevant to this discussion.

Why would any company train cooks or baggage handlers so they can employ pilots?

Is the training of cooks, baggage handler and counter clerks `relevant’ to pilot requirements?
Many of the cooks, baggage handler and counter clerks are no longer employed by the airlines the work/employees being contracted out.

Again, highly irrelevant.

“457 Visa Obligations:
Sponsor obligations
Sponsorship obligations apply to all sponsors of subclass 457 visa holders. They are in place to ensure that overseas skilled workers are protected from exploitation, and that the subclass 457 visa programme is being used to meet genuine skills shortages, and not to undercut local labour wages and conditions.
Some obligations apply beyond the term of sponsorship approval.
As a sponsor you must:
• cooperate with inspectors
• ensure equivalent terms and conditions of employment
• keep records
• provide records and information to the Minister
• tell us when certain events occur
• ensure the visa holder participates in the nominated occupation, program or activity
• not recover from, transfer or charge certain costs to another person
• pay travel costs to enable sponsored people to leave Australia
• pay costs to remove unlawful non-citizens
• provide training to Australians and permanent residents
• not engage in discriminatory recruitment practices.
• Provide training to Australians and permanent residents

If you are a standard business sponsor and you lawfully operated a business in Australia at the time you were approved as a standard business sponsor (or at the time you had your terms of approval varied). You must contribute to the training of Australians by:
• spending an equivalent of at least two per cent of your payroll in payments to an industry training fund that operates in the same industry as you; or
• spending an equivalent to at least one per cent of your payroll in the provision of training to employees of your business who are Australian citizens or Australian permanent residents.

The obligation begins on the day you are approved as a sponsor. You must meet this obligation in each 12 month period within which you employ a sponsored visa holder (including if the sponsored visa holder is not employed by you for the full twelve months). Where your approval as a standard business sponsor is varied, you must meet the training requirement if you employ one or more primary sponsored persons.”

Dark Knight
25th Sep 2016, 04:14
The Temporary Work (Skilled) visa (subclass 457) allows skilled workers to come to Australia and work for an approved business for up to four years.

You must be sponsored by an approved business. A business can sponsor someone for this visa if they cannot find an Australian citizen or permanent resident to do the skilled work.

You can be in or outside Australia when you lodge your application.
This visa allows you to:
• work in Australia for up to four years
• bring your family to work or study in Australia
• travel in and out of Australia as often as you want.

Before you apply

This is a sponsored visa. Before you can apply for the visa, your employer must:
• become an approved sponsor
• nominate you for a position.
You can apply for this visa at the same time your employer lodges their applications to sponsor and nominate you.

No further stay

You cannot apply for this visa if you already hold another visa that has a ‘No further stay’ condition.

Your passport

You must have a valid passport or other travel document for this visa.

Who could get this visa
To apply you must:
• be nominated to work in an approved occupation on the Skilled Occupation Lists
• meet the skill requirements for the nominated occupation
• meet registration and licensing obligations
• speak vocational English
• have been nominated by an approved business.

Approved occupations

You must work in a skilled occupation that has been approved by the Australian Government.
The list of eligible occupations is available on the Skilled Occupation Lists
Skill requirements
You need to show that you have the skills and experience necessary to work in the nominated occupation. The evidence that you can provide is listed in the Document checklist for visa applicants.
If your nominated occupation is a trade occupation, you might need to do a skills assessment.
If your nominated occupation is 'Project and Program Administrator or Specialist Manager not elsewhere classified', you will need to a skills assessment for migration purposes.

Registration and licensing

If requested by your visa processing case officer, you must provide evidence from the relevant Australian registration or licensing authority that you hold, or will be able to meet, the registration or licensing requirements to work in your nominated occupation.
Your approved sponsor should be able to provide you with the necessary licensing and registration information.

English language proficiency

It is important that you can speak, write and understand a sufficient level of English while you are in Australia. We use the following tests to determine your level of English language proficiency:

Band a Lot
25th Sep 2016, 07:32
Due to the fact it seems 2 guys have 457 for QL, we will have to agree to disagree.

"One would think the word `relevant’ (bearing upon or connected with the matter in hand; pertinent) is highly descriptive, accurate and specific particularly when related to the word `positions’ when the positions to be filled is that of pilots including pilots to fly a particular aircraft.
it would certainly be held as such within a court of law."

I think we also need to agree to disagree on how our legal system works and what would be upheld. I think a fancy Lawyer would have no problem convincing a court that any Pilot training would be classed as "relevant" and look we even has several Check and "Training" pilots employed full time your Honour.

They are employing a "pilot" they have and do give training to pilots already employed.

I have personal experiences with DIBP in relation to with 24 visa applications including 7 refused visas and have dealt with several Registered Migration Agents and am fully aware of what you have copied and pasted - just none of it on paper or in practice states if you apply for a 457 for a Captain position on a Dash 8 -400 then your training must be for that position.

Band a Lot
25th Sep 2016, 08:02
The training benchmarks for an established business are:

A) Recent expenditure, by the business, to the equivalent of at least 2% of the payroll of the business, in payments allocated to an industry training fund that operates in the same industry as the business. {this could be a training fund for Jetstar and still comply}


OR

B) Recent expenditure, by the business, to the equivalent of at least 1% of the payroll of the business, in the provision of training to employees of the business.


Expenditure that can count towards this benchmark includes:


· employment of a person who trains the business’s Australian employees who are Australian citizens and Australian permanent residents as a key part of their job.

Like Check and Training Captains

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2013L01236


http://migrationblog.border.gov.au/2014/06/06/training-australian-workers-an-obligation-for-457-employers/

Band a Lot
25th Sep 2016, 10:28
CCMS the responding person Nick is a Registered Migration Agent since some time in 2006 (first 2 digits of licence number is year they got licence)

So he has about 10 years in this visa field and is a professional in the field including 457 visa's.

457 visa and trainning requirement. (http://www.australiaforum.com/visas-immigration/188290-457-visa-trainning-requirement.html)

Dark Knight
26th Sep 2016, 01:25
`The relevant instrument is fairly general, but I don't believe the training is limited to the actual nominated position only. After all, the training requirement is linked to the sponsorship, not to individual nominations/visa applications.

The business is required to show that the training that has been, and continues to be, provided to employees who are Australian citizens and Australian permanent residents is related to the purpose of the business.’

a) He states he `believes’: belief is not a statement of fact.
b) ` the training requirement is linked to the sponsorship, not to individual nominations/visa applications’: The sponsorship as would be the advertising for the positions, is linked directly to the requirement for pilots in a specified position i.e. in the case mentioned Dash 7 Captains.
c) Yes, the airlines do train pilots and it has been/is the norm, standard practice airlines to train pilots to upgrade to Captain and transition to different types.
As this is/has been standard Australian and worldwide practice it can be successfully argued that training for these positions should be considered as meeting the training requirements.

`Training Australian workers: an obligation for 457 employers

Since 1 July 2013, the training obligation takes this a step further by requiring businesses in the programme to continue contributing to the training of Australians for the entire time they are approved as a sponsor and employ 457 visa holders.’
`The business is required to show that the training that has been, and continues to be, provided to employees who are Australian citizens and Australian permanent residents is related to the purpose of the business.
Expenditure that can count towards this benchmark includes:
• on-the-job training that is structured with a timeframe and clearly identified increase in the skills at each stage, and demonstrating:

the learning outcomes of the employee at each stage;
how the progress of the employee will be monitored and assessed;
how the program will provide additional and enhanced skills;
the use of qualified trainers to develop the program and set assessments; and
the number of people participating and their skill/occupation’


BaL:
I suggest you need to fully need to state/clarify your position?
Reading through your posts you indicate you are an Australian citizen however your posts tend to indicate due to personal experience (satisfactory & unsatisfactory) you have an axe to grind with the Immigration and Border Protection Department and Australian Immigration Laws?

Therefore, you would rather see the breaking down of Australian Immigration Laws and not have Australian Citizens protected?


The 457 Visa intent and purpose is to provide for the employment of non-Australian citizens where it can be demonstrated there not any, or insufficient qualified Australian Citizens available to fill these employment positions.

The intent and purpose further qualifies Australian citizens must be given every opportunity to apply for and/or be trained for these positions.

The 457 Visa system is specifically designed to allow an employer to source workers from overseas where it can be positively established and shown such workers are not available within Australia. Additionally it should be shown training programs are in place to train qualified Australians to fill any positions.

To participate and use this system it is incumbent upon an employer to meet with specified obligations ensuring no Australian citizen is disadvantaged or the working conditions/salary are not significantly less than would/should be available to an Australian citizen.

There is no dispute or argument the 457 Visa process is a legitimate procedure; it is well understood this contributes to ensure positive growth and progress within Australian industry however, when a system is abused, attempted to be rorted or circumvented by unscrupulous employers with Australian Citizens seriously disadvantaged in their Home country it is incumbent upon the relevant Federal Government Department or regulatory authority to comprehensively, forensically investigate such industry and take full, proper, positive, prompt action.

If Australian citizens e.g. in this case pilots (including Bal), are not prepared to stand to ensuring the Parliament, their elected representatives fully protect Australian Citizens, protect Australian jobs then the total system will break down, there will be not be employment protection of any type.

An open door policy will prevail which has already demonstrated the significant disastrous economic cost.

It is your employment in peril!

Band a Lot
26th Sep 2016, 05:14
BaL:
I suggest you need to fully need to state/clarify your position?
Reading through your posts you indicate you are an Australian citizen however your posts tend to indicate due to personal experience (satisfactory & unsatisfactory) you have an axe to grind with the Immigration and Border Protection Department and Australian Immigration Laws?

*Yes Australian citizen and yes issues with DIBP like being told to leave a 10 year old kid behind to get a visa.

Therefore, you would rather see the breaking down of Australian Immigration Laws and not have Australian Citizens protected?

I do not agree with some of DIBP laws or am I against protecting our citizens. I am simply saying

* 457 visa holders CAN NOT be paid less than an Australian doing the same job/company - people that don't get this will never understand anything.

* Current laws and policy are what must be followed - not wishes or intentions of how law was meant to work in practice.

* It is about impossible to have a law that everybody in everyway intended, someone always gets it worse than others.

I would love to show you PAM3 (Procedures Advice Manual 3) but it is a very secret document/book it contains policy on Immigration law for use by DIBP staff and it is a one size fits all. State library in NSW and Vic have a copy as do 4 universities according to a website, all obsolete I assume.

PAM3 the parts I have seen give statements on what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. It was amended some months back in 457 training section to exclude commissions paid by training companies for referrals, Rumour had it was as much as 40% commission.

"To meet the requirements of Training Benchmark A, the applicant can show evidence of having made a contribution to a recognised scholarship fund that is operated by an Australian university or TAFE college. The scholarship fund should support education or training for Australian citizens or permanent residents in a course related to the business of the applicant, with no percentage of the contributions being allocated to commissions."

from a mate in the know:-


Thebusiness is required to show that the training that has been, and continues tobe, provided to employees who are Australian citizens and Australian permanentresidents is related to the purpose of the business.

13/030 - specification of training benchmarks and training requirements (regs2.59(d), 2.68(e), 2.87B(2), 2.87B(3) and 5.19(4)(h)(i)(B)(I))

Training can take all sort of forms. There is a lot of info on it in therelevant parts of the PAMs. Both the nominated position and the training wouldbe relevant to the business, but training expenditure could also includetraining of staff in supporting/ admin roles etc. , general health and safetyand many other things.

The law is fine but it is policy that needs changing to include wording similar to that of Fiji I posted before. I seem to remember special equipment assumedly with persons to operate them were flown in for the rescue at Beaconsfield will still need an out clause for some things.

Policy is a thing easier for members of government can easier lobby for change than put it on the floor of parliament.

Dark Knight
26th Sep 2016, 06:36
`457 visa holders CAN NOT be paid less than an Australian doing the same job/company - people that don't get this will never understand anything.’

I have not mentioned anything about payment however, similar to all the other Legislation/Rules quoted/cut & pasted the rules are as equally specific: aliens granted a 457 Visa shall not be paid less than an Australian citizen and there should be in place workplace agreements.

In accepting and quoting the Legislation/rules about payment as they are writ why then are all the other Legislation/rules not accepted as writ?

Selective discussion ploy

`Current laws and policy are what must be followed - not wishes or intentions of how law was meant to work in practice’

Have I argued anything but? All I have quoted is essentially a direct cut & paste from the Department – intention, wishes is exactly what you have argued due to disagreement with application of the law or results of application of the law or rules.

`The law is fine but it is policy that needs changing to include wording similar to that of Fiji I posted before. I seem to remember special equipment assumedly with persons to operate them were flown in for the rescue at Beaconsfield will still need an out clause for some things. ‘

Totally irrelevant: What the laws are in other countries has no bearing upon the laws here: equally the Beaconsfield illustration is irrelevant – a special case covered under entirely different Legislation/Rule – another diversionary tactic.

`when a system is abused, attempted to be rorted or circumvented by unscrupulous employers’

This is precisely what is happening not just in QL but other companies/employers within the Australian aviation industry: any employer can set about devising a plausible ruse to circumvent this legislation and unless exposed and investigated Australian citizens are seriously disadvantaged within their own Country.


I will say it again:

The 457 Visa system is specifically designed to allow an employer to source workers from overseas where it can be positively established and shown such workers are not available within Australia. Additionally it should be shown training programs are in place to train qualified Australians to fill any positions.

To participate and use this system it is incumbent upon an employer to meet with specified obligations ensuring no Australian citizen is disadvantaged or the working conditions/salary are not significantly less than would/should be available to an Australian citizen.

There is no dispute or argument the 457 Visa process is a legitimate procedure; it is well understood this contributes to ensure positive growth and progress within Australian industry however, when a system is abused, attempted to be rorted or circumvented by unscrupulous employers with Australian Citizens seriously disadvantaged in their Home country it is incumbent upon the relevant Federal Government Department or regulatory authority to comprehensively, forensically investigate such industry and take full, proper, positive, prompt action.

If Australian citizens e.g. in this case pilots (including Bal), are not prepared to stand to ensuring the Parliament, their elected representatives fully protect Australian Citizens, protect Australian jobs then the total system will break down, there will be not be employment protection of any type.

An open door policy will prevail which has already demonstrated the significant disastrous economic cost.

It is your employment in peril!

Band a Lot
26th Sep 2016, 09:06
The law isnot being broken, if it is then just take your cut and paste and useinformation supplied by StudentInDEBT.

How do I report migration fraud?

​If you suspect someone ofmigration fraud and want to tell us about it, you can:

telephone the Immigration Dob-in Service on 1800009 623http://www.pprune.org/data:image/png;base64,R0lGODlhGAAYAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT 2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAYABgAhgAAAACq/wCz8wCu7wCv8ACu7gCq7gCu8wCq9wC77gC3/wCt7wCv7gCs7gCv7waw7xm28QCs7wSv7wCr7guy8AKv7wCr7xa18Amx8B638 QCp7gux8Bu28Ri28QCz9xS08Aix8AOv7zC98iq88iC58Sy88iC48S298i698 jvB8z7C8zjA8zrA80LD813M9UjF9FbJ9F/M9UvG9EnF9EDC80HC83nV92nQ9WXO9XXT9nnU92fP9nDS9ozb+IDX95zf+YX Y94fZ+I/c+Ina+J/h+bnp+6Li+a7l+q/l+qDh+bTn+7Ln+qHh+b7q+7rp+7Xo+rfo+8Ps/Nnz/c/w/Nz0/ej4/u/6/vT7/vL7/uz5/vz+//X8/vj9/+T2/vb8/uv5/v7//+X3/fH7/v3+//P7/v///wECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECA wECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwf/gACCAAOFAwSDiYqLho2ODIuJjpOOkZSGC5QFiQ6UBg8iLSkQBhGNm4KUEj1V VldYWVEqE6epjhRFZWVaW1y6ZTYVjbaYLrpdNy8wRrpcEMMABI0TR7o4FguZ PmVWF42QhIYTSLpJGBKZEyPeleGFCzG/UkQ5Mhkapu2OG0q/ul5ZinDIVGvSAhxTvmzxR4WdIWLvDEjsMEPHEjC6dOQrBHEACSYlMmUb8ENX E1oPATAQ50SXCZETgOh6grIQIncRgugKs2MFCx5idMUgmLLRhym6tIjBMkYX FAqTBjUCIaQVGTJWqgwJQWlQgUYGJJygUQOFBAOXEn11NPLSgEVrEN22i6RS Lke6ilBFM+QgUSAAOw==1800009 623Â FREE—if you need help with your English we can get an interpreter
fill out the Immigration Dob-in Service Online Report (https://www.border.gov.au/about/contact/immigration-and-citizenship-online-report)
fax your report to 1800 009 849http://www.pprune.org/data:image/png;base64,R0lGODlhGAAYAHcAMSH+GlNvZnR3YXJlOiBNaWNyb3NvZnQgT 2ZmaWNlACH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAAYABgAhgAAAACq/wCz8wCu7wCv8ACu7gCq7gCu8wCq9wC77gC3/wCt7wCv7gCs7gCv7waw7xm28QCs7wSv7wCr7guy8AKv7wCr7xa18Amx8B638 QCp7gux8Bu28Ri28QCz9xS08Aix8AOv7zC98iq88iC58Sy88iC48S298i698 jvB8z7C8zjA8zrA80LD813M9UjF9FbJ9F/M9UvG9EnF9EDC80HC83nV92nQ9WXO9XXT9nnU92fP9nDS9ozb+IDX95zf+YX Y94fZ+I/c+Ina+J/h+bnp+6Li+a7l+q/l+qDh+bTn+7Ln+qHh+b7q+7rp+7Xo+rfo+8Ps/Nnz/c/w/Nz0/ej4/u/6/vT7/vL7/uz5/vz+//X8/vj9/+T2/vb8/uv5/v7//+X3/fH7/v3+//P7/v///wECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECA wECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwECAwf/gACCAAOFAwSDiYqLho2ODIuJjpOOkZSGC5QFiQ6UBg8iLSkQBhGNm4KUEj1V VldYWVEqE6epjhRFZWVaW1y6ZTYVjbaYLrpdNy8wRrpcEMMABI0TR7o4FguZ PmVWF42QhIYTSLpJGBKZEyPeleGFCzG/UkQ5Mhkapu2OG0q/ul5ZinDIVGvSAhxTvmzxR4WdIWLvDEjsMEPHEjC6dOQrBHEACSYlMmUb8ENX E1oPATAQ50SXCZETgOh6grIQIncRgugKs2MFCx5idMUgmLLRhym6tIjBMkYX FAqTBjUCIaQVGTJWqgwJQWlQgUYGJJygUQOFBAOXEn11NPLSgEVrEN22i6RS Lke6ilBFM+QgUSAAOw==1800009 849Â FREE
post your report to:
Information Collection Unit
Department of Border Protection
GPO Box 241
Melbourne VIC 3001
go to any Australian office of the department and make a report in person.

I hope you keep us all informed - I simply stated wording use by a country,same wording Australia should use - then much of what you have posted would becorrect. I find that funny!

Current wording of everything you posted is "interpretable" much likeCASA regs.

Ever know CASA to be wrong? CASA are saints compared DIBP got a bigger budgettoo.


One simple Question and just a short answer please>>>>>


If it is not cheaper (in fact more expensive) to employ a 457 Visa holder compared to a Australian Citizen - Why would company/s employ 457 personal? Must be a reason/s.

Answers along the lines of erode pay and conditions would be laughable given DIBP in strike mode for next 2 week because 3 year ongoing pay and conditions dispute.

Band a Lot
26th Sep 2016, 14:50
This is how things work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zx0vrR2BFp8&list=RDZx0vrR2BFp8#t=39

Dark Knight
27th Sep 2016, 00:27
Reported over 9 months ago; awaiting a decision.

We are not talking about the wording of another country or what, in one’s opinion, should be used; it is entirely about the way the law is currently laid down here.

I totally disagree all is interpretable including CASA regs; the moment anyone starts interpreting law, regulations, SOPs, etc. we immediately have problems deciding the law and in particular standardisation, it just disappears.
(CASA to be wrong: the question answers itself)

Employers, certainly the more unscrupulous ones, do consider there are significant cost savings to be found using 457 visa employees particularly when they undertake a long term view. It is not difficult to provide an appearance of legitimacy and compliance with 457 visa regulations with the aim of circumvention.

457 visa employees are always under threat of withdrawal of sponsorship therefore need to toe the employer line.
SA new hires are desperate to find another country they can live in and will work for a wage considered acceptable enabling escape from SA. (plays into the hands of employers)


The 457 Visa system is specifically designed to allow an employer to source workers from overseas where it can be positively established and shown such workers are not available within Australia. Additionally it should be shown training programs are in place to train qualified Australians to fill any positions.

To participate and use this system it is incumbent upon an employer to meet with specified obligations ensuring no Australian citizen is disadvantaged or the working conditions/salary are not significantly less than would/should be available to an Australian citizen.


First and foremost we should be fully dedicated to protecting Australian employment.

Surprisingly there has been little comment from any directly affected?

Nor does there seem to be recognition by others who may well be affected if use of this i allowed to g unchecked?

Out_Bush
5th Oct 2016, 09:52
"I don't see the fuss about the visa issues how many ozi pilots are working overseas"

Yes, majority I'd say are working for airlines hiring EXPATs or working for an airline in a country where they have a dual citizenship.

Recently spoke to former colleagues who worked up north and have said that the pilot I have mentioned WAS on a WHV with the same employer for more than 6 month because apparently if it's casual you can. Now, I'm not saying that's the law but it is what happened.

I agree with you Band a Lot that it is more expensive or an employer to sponsor an applicant because they need to pay them the same amount as an Australian, plus fees involved with the application. To be approved they need to show evidence that they are not enough Australians to fill the positions.

TaoQ400
7th Oct 2016, 17:34
Interesting perspectives on this thread.I am from SA Express and know both the guys personally who have joined Qlink.I can assure you that they are very experienced.One of them in particular is surely a great loss to us.His expertise and intellect has given our airline a much needed transformation.He has held very high positions in our airline.To put the record straight.They took the positions because for some reason or other they wanted to come to OZ.There were many guys(close to 20) offered the positions,but declined.South Africa is not the place where every white man is desperate to get out.It is a fantastic place to live and our freedoms are unquantifiable.Some of the reasons the guys gave for declining the offer was because of superior lifestyle that they live in SA.Some thought the salary at Qlink was ridiculous.The two genet,mean who are there now had their reasons for going and we would never know unless you ask them.Perhaps they have extended family there and want the opportunity to be close to them.Perhaps they wanted a challenge.

tail wheel
11th Oct 2016, 22:21
The 2016 - 2017 Skilled Occupation List has been announced by the Department of Immigration and Border Protection:

Want to migrate to Australia? 2016-17 Skilled Occupations List (SOL) announced | SBS Your Language (http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/article/2016/05/17/want-migrate-australia-2016-17-skilled-occupations-list-sol-announced?cid=inbody%3Aimportant-changes-to-australias-student-visa-programme-from-1-july-2016)

Aeroplane Pilot is 231111. Helicopter Pilot is 231114. Neither are on the Federal Government Skilled Occupation List.

Aeroplane pilot ANZSCO Code 231111 may be eligible for a General Skilled Visa Sub Class 189 in the Northern Territory and West Australia and is on the South Australia "Supplementary Skilled List" or "Special Conditions Apply" List.

https://www.anzscosearch.com/search/

StudentInDebt
11th Oct 2016, 23:56
Just a quick correction as the table in the anzscosearch website is a bit misleading. Aeroplane Pilot is not eligible for general skilled migration (189 visa) in those states, instead it is eligible for nominated (190) or regional provisional (489) visas.

plhought
12th Oct 2016, 21:52
QLink was up here in YVR (Vancouver, Canada) doing some sim evaluations and interviews for Direct Entry FO's.

Attached is presentation they gave to each candidate.

For your interest....

Dark Knight
16th Oct 2016, 00:26
The abilities, qualification or professionalism of the pilots from SA taking up 457 Visa positions with QLink is not questioned.

Why many, many are leaving SA is a decision each and every individual has to make but of the over 60 or more pilots from SA I have had an association with, some taking 457 visa positions here or others going to work elsewhere, the overwhelming, individual majority decision for their leaving was they considered SA is no longer a place, certainly a safe place, for them to live. This also included some black men.

Living in SA or the politics, policies of SA are not the reason for this thread nor are employment of Australian pilots overseas.

The recruitment pack from QLink clarifies, justifies and confirms all which has been written here where the jobs of Australian pilots are under serious assault.
Airlines, operator management, with the exception of managerial remuneration, are not philanthropically inclined and whilst on the surface it may appear more expensive to hire pilots under 457 visa arrangements in depth analysis or long term objectives will show otherwise.

The apathy, indifference, inaction by those whose promotion, upgrading and jobs are at stake is a serious concern. Equally concerning is the diversionary, irrelevant discussion of working rules in other countries and about Australian pilots working there.

457 visas apply only in Australia, to Australian jobs; there is no dispute or argument the 457 Visa process is a legitimate procedure; it is well understood this contributes to ensure positive growth and progress within Australian industry however, when a system is abused, attempted to be rorted or circumvented by unscrupulous employers with Australian Citizens seriously disadvantaged in their Home country it is incumbent upon the relevant Federal Government Department or regulatory authority to comprehensively, forensically investigate such industry and take full, proper, positive, prompt action. Equally, those whose jobs are in danger should get of their asses taking some positive action.

Dining room table, bar oratory and PPrune discussion may all be highly entertaining but achieves little.

When your upgrade, job is not available it will be too late.

02041402
21st Oct 2016, 00:37
Regardless of the various cries of there are Aussies in all sorts of countries across the world, the 457 visa program is supposedly intended to only allow experienced workers in a selected range of fields entry into Australia only if a test has been applied that
demonstrated that there were no suitable applicants from within Australia.

Skywest did it with the ATR introduction for a bunch of experienced ATR crew and the hook there was there were very few experienced pilots with ATR time and it was a new type and therefore a cadre of experienced pilots was necessary for the introduction.

I don't think that reasoning could be applied to the QantasLink case and given that they have a well established check and training system experienced in training all manner of pilots, including cadets with sod all total time on the Dash, then I can't see the justification for allowing the 457 visas.

With regards Aussies in different countries, most of the countries are ones where the pilots are needed not wanted and they would give the expat pilots the push with the blink of an eye of they could.

Many are in Europe and a much smaller number in the US as a result of family ties that give them passports/right of residency in the respective countries and they have to do all the licensing like normal residents. No free passes in the easa system even for experienced pilots, so for those that went to those countries they worked for it, so good on them.

The US is easier from a licensing perspective but more difficult from an immigration perspective. Even more difficult from a seniority perspective. From what I read on another thread, if you don't have an aviation related bachelors degree you need 12 years of relevant industry experience to qualify for an E3 view, which I gather from my non existent research :) is the US equivalent to our 457. Because of the way the industry works there you are not going to get much credit for your experience in terms of the positions available to you, so you start at the bottom of the list like everyone else and get shit money and shit rosters working for the regional feeders into the mainline carriers and work your way up from there. In fairness it is
probably much the same as here in many ways except the salaries paid here are much more substantial than those paid to 'junior' pilots in the US.

I would love to go and be a wide body airbus captain in Europe and take the family and see out my career there but it just ain't going to happen. I don't have the family heritage that gets me an EU passport, I couldn't be arsed doing all the subjects again, and starting as a FO again, so it just ain't going to happen for me, but there are those that are happy to take the bucks in China and not sure why the sandpit is attractive other than shiny wide body aeroplanes but people go there too, but make no mistake if the Chinese or the Emiratis could get rid of expats and crew all their aeroplanes with locals without huge dramas the expats (of all nationalities) would be gone in a heartbeat.

I'm an Aussie, I have been hired just recently with a regional in the US flying CRJ. No jet experience, on an E3 visa. No bachelor degree, started traning in 08 cpl 09
G3 instructor rating with instrument rating. Charter and skydive experience.
FAA ATP
4000TT
2200 turbine
600 multi
300pic multi
It does happen

pilotchute
21st Oct 2016, 03:04
I know the E3 visa requirements well. A four year bachelors is required or 3 years flying for every year of uni you are short of the 4 years. So if you have no uni at all you must have 12 years flying experience which you do not.

VH DSJ
21st Oct 2016, 03:45
I know the E3 visa requirements well. A four year bachelors is required or 3 years flying for every year of uni you are short of the 4 years. So if you have no uni at all you must have 12 years flying experience which you do not.

Ask the people who have actually been issued with an E3 visa. You'll find that the 4 year bachelor degree is not a requirement for a pilot position because the job does not require it.

pilotchute
21st Oct 2016, 09:55
Envoy has had success with E3 Visas for Australian applicants. The key seems to be a 4 year degree in aviation that is equivalent to a US bachelors degree. Please let me know if you have this degree in order for us to move forward. Any missing college may be substituted with 3 years of aviation experience for each year missing.

So the above quote from a recruiter at that airline isn't true?

Another quote,

e3 Visa Requirements: Qualifying Candidates

First and foremost, you’re going to need to satisfy certain mandatory e3 visa requirements in terms of education and work experience. The e3 visa is a professional work visa intended for professional individuals.

As such, this means that you have to have the equivalent of a U.S. Bachelor’s degree, a great deal of experience in your field (more than 10 years), or some combination thereof (for instance, an associate’s degree and 6 years of education). Basically, your education or work experience have to be enough to make you employable for a “specialty occupation” under the USCIS’s guidelines of “academic or other qualifications demonstrating qualifications for the position.” And not only do you need to be qualified, but the position needs to qualify as well.

bafanguy
21st Oct 2016, 10:16
"I'm an Aussie, I have been hired just recently with a regional in the US flying CRJ. No jet experience, on an E3 visa."

02041402,

Interesting. I've tried to follow this issue of Aussie visas and US employment but haven't heretofore seen anyone document their journey on that route.

Can you offer any more specifics without revealing more than you're comfortable with (PM, perhaps ?) ?

How did you get this visa...on your own individual effort...did the regional carrier offer and/or provide assistance ? Were you recruited by the carrier while living in Australia or did you approach them on your own initiative ?

Thanks...

VH DSJ
21st Oct 2016, 12:42
So the above quote from a recruiter at that airline isn't true?

Another quote,

pilotchute, no it's not true. I have an E3 visa for an airline in the US, so I should know. And there are other Australians I know over there in the same circumstances as me.

havick
21st Oct 2016, 15:05
Plenty of regionals offering E3's in the USA to Aussies.

I've just jumped ship from helicopters to the airlines here in the US with a regional flying Embraer 145 or 175. I've got a green card, but the recruiters asked me if I knew any other Aussies wanting to come over on an E3.

There are a few regionals here in the US that are wholly owned by mainline offering a guaranteed flow to mainline without even having to re-interview.

Food for thought for all the link FO's missing the boat in Australia.

VH DSJ
21st Oct 2016, 16:01
I concur with Havick. If you miss out on QantasLink and would like to get some valuable jet experience, then come over to the US with an E3 visa. I know of 4 other Aussies in the airline I joined who have done the same. The equipment they have are CRJ 200/700/900 and brand spanking new Embraer E175's. Forget about the turbo-props at Qlink, go for the jet time in the US. And time to command is around 2 to 3 years, possibly quicker if you have previous multi-crew turbine time.

The is a quota on the E3 visa however, which is around 10,000 per year. However, at the moment, only half of that quota is being filled. And again, no degree is required from my own personal experience nor do you need the 12 years industry experience. All you need is a job offer from an airline which supports the E3 visa pathway (I personally know of two), and permission from the Department of Labor in the US which the airline will organise for you.

As for minimum requirements, check with the airlines you wish to join, but generally, it's 1500 TT. And you don't need an FAA license when applying either. When you do the checkride for the type rating (which the airline pays for), that checkride can be used to convert your Australian license to the FAA.

bafanguy
21st Oct 2016, 16:56
VH DSJ,

Thanks for the info. It's been said some Aussies were taking advantage of that visa but you're the first to more or less document it.

I've not seen any regional advertise they're soliciting visa holders (although it might help them a bit to do that) so it was hard to tell just what's been happening.

Welcome aboard.

havick
21st Oct 2016, 17:28
They won't advertise it because they don't want to bear the expense of flying the candidate over for an interview.

bafanguy
21st Oct 2016, 17:42
Havick,

Well, would most Aussies interested in this deal be willing to get themselves to the West Coast and let Skywest get them the rest of the way space available ? People seem to be willing to spend a lot more and get a lot less in other ways. ;-)

havick
21st Oct 2016, 17:52
Havick,

Well, would most Aussies interested in this deal be willing to get themselves to the West Coast and let Skywest get them the rest of the way space available ? People seem to be willing to spend a lot more and get a lot less in other ways. ;-)

If you get interested people to PM me I can put them in touch with the specific recruiters with Envoy and piedmont that are familiar with the E3 stuff.

They'all have to pay their own way to the US but the airline then positive spaces them the rest of the way. Envoy interviews at DFW.

I'm just starting with Envoy now. I don't have a college degree so I'll be applying to AA and united once I tick their boxes but most likely will end up relying on the flow to mainline.

Envoy has new hires without any PT121 experience getting an upgrade with 3 years (max) and flow within 5 years. Though this could be quicker as the numbers are based purely on flow and don't take into account normal attrition and future expansion.

I never thought I'd see myself jump ship from helicopters to fixed wing, but this is just the start of the boom over here and there's no time like now to get a seniority number and ride the wave. I've still got my helicopter experience as an insurance/back up plan if I don't like it after 2 years.

bafanguy
21st Oct 2016, 19:44
Havick,

Thanks. I'm only familiar with one guy who'd expressed interest a couple of months ago. I sent him a PM telling him to read this thread and contact you. Not sure if he will.

I'm merely an interested observer but it seems shortsighted of the regionals not to exploit the Aussie connection..."IF" they're as hard up for pilots as often alleged.

Good luck with your training.

Livin
22nd Oct 2016, 23:21
Havick, VH DSJ and Bafanguy,
I am unable to pm due to my recent join date. I would be interested in getting some more info though on the process and whom to contact over there. Could you pm me please?

bafanguy
23rd Oct 2016, 13:00
Livin,

Wish I had the inside track on this issue but I'm just an interested observer watching from the sidelines without the knowledge and contacts that Havick, 02041402 and VH DSJ have.

I talked to someone last night who mentioned he's heard several instances lately of an unmistakable Aussie accent on the radio from a regional callsign here in US airspace.

And if VH DSJ's statement, "And you don't need an FAA license when applying either. When you do the checkride for the type rating (which the airline pays for), that checkride can be used to convert your Australian license to the FAA." is true, the process just got markedly easier.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

havick
24th Oct 2016, 02:57
Hi Livin,

It won't let me PM you because of your new profile.

Livin
24th Oct 2016, 03:33
Thanks Bafanguy, I appreciate your reply.
Havick,
I have sent you an email, hopefully it has gone through. The PM function would be handy at the moment. If not I'll try and contact you some other way.
Livin

pilotchute
24th Oct 2016, 21:02
I can't speak for people who have been hired on the E3 visa previous to now but from a conversion I had this week from a recruiter the situation is now this.

"We will not attempt to sponsor anyone who does not already hold an FAA ATP and a bachelor degree/significant previous experience. To try and get a E3 visa for someone who doesn't already have these prerequisites is incredibly difficult".

bafanguy
24th Oct 2016, 21:14
pilotchute,

Would you be at liberty to say what airline that was ?

Considering the constipated federal bureaucracy one is likely to encounter when dealing with visa issues, it wouldn't surprise me to find that different airlines had very different experiences when trying to help an applicant get the visa.

VH DSJ
24th Oct 2016, 22:03
I can't speak for people who have been hired on the E3 visa previous to now but from a conversion I had this week from a recruiter the situation is now this.

"We will not attempt to sponsor anyone who does not already hold an FAA ATP and a bachelor degree/significant previous experience. To try and get a E3 visa for someone who doesn't already have these prerequisites is incredibly difficult".
Pilotchute, I wonder whether the recruiter you spoke to has had any experience in recruiting someone on the E3 visa? This is a quote is from the US government website for applying the E3 visa.

Do I need a license for a specialty occupation?
An E-3 applicant must meet academic and occupational requirements, including licensure in Australia where appropriate. In certain cases where a U.S. license or other official permission is required to perform the duties described in the visa application, but such permission or license is not available prior to entry into the United States, the applicant must show that he or she will obtain such licensure within a reasonable period of time following admission to the United States.

Have a read of it yourself.Apply for a U.S. Visa | Treaty Traders and Treaty Investors Visas - Australia (English) (http://www.ustraveldocs.com/au/au-niv-typee3.asp)

Livin
25th Oct 2016, 03:29
Hi Havick,
Check your PMs please.
Livin

pilotchute
26th Oct 2016, 00:34
I was speaking to a person yesterday who is going through the process right now. He is the 8th person they are sponsoring. They will not do the visa interview until the FAA ATP has been issued. That was from the US Dept of Labour, not the airline.

VH DSJ
26th Oct 2016, 01:20
I was speaking to a person yesterday who is going through the process right now. He is the 8th person they are sponsoring. They will not do the visa interview until the FAA ATP has been issued. That was from the US Dept of Labour, not the airline.

That's certainly not the case with me and a number of other people I know who have gone through the process and have the E3 visa issued. Which airline are you referring to? PM me if you like.

havick
29th Oct 2016, 20:45
For everyone that has PM'd me, I have collated all your specific questions and have forwarded them all the the head recruiter for the regional I'm starting with next week.

He's got an appointment with their immigration/corporate lawyer and will have solid answers as to the E3 process they will follow with regard to how to apply, getting drug tests and background checks done etc as there are some differences in the way they will face with Aussies not having a US drivers license and SSN (even though you will be able to get one once you have the E3 visa inhand and you're in country).

So bear with me for a weeks or two and I'll post the exact step by step process on here that you should follow.

I know there's already few guys working for them on E3's but the process was not set in stone and every case was slightly different.

bafanguy
4th Nov 2016, 20:29
havick is likely to be rather busy for the next 6 weeks or so. :-)