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SilsoeSid
15th Sep 2016, 15:13
Surely if you are using a banned performance enhancing substance, TUE or not, you are not a 'clean' athlete.

VP959
15th Sep 2016, 15:30
Surely if you are using a banned performance enhancing substance, TUE or not, you are not a 'clean' athlete.
It gets pretty grey when you look at the very long list of banned substances and then realise that things like asthma and hay fever medications are listed. Chris Froome has openly admitted using banned substances under a TUE on two occasions for asthma. The testing regime seems pretty solid now, so if he'd used the banned substance outside those two listed occasions then I am pretty confident it would have been picked up, perhaps all the more so because there was the written evidence that he'd used the medication twice before.

Athletes are human, and will need treatment for illnesses from time to time, and it's unrealistic to withhold medications to treat those illnesses just because they are on the banned substances list.

For example, very many over-the-counter "cold cure" symptomatic relief medicines contain banned substances. The most common is probably pseudoephedrine, a decongestant that is in Lemsip, Sudafed and host of other symptom relief medicines. If this is taken within half a day or so of competing, then there is a small chance that it may act as a slight stimulant. If taken when an athlete is not competing, then it gives that athlete no competitive advantage.

There are a lot of medications on the banned substances list that are like this; they may possibly have a performance-enhancing effect if taken during competition, but don't if they are taken when an athlete is not competing.

Drug testing is random, and athletes are tested whether they are competing or not, hence the reason they are allowed to request a TUE to take a medication when they have an illness and are not competing. My understanding is that they are not normally permitted to take such medications when actually competing, unless the banned substance has no impact on their performance in their sport. For example, beta blockers are banned. Clearly they are not performance-enhancing drugs for sprinters, but they are for shooters.

The whole banned substance thing is a bit of a nightmare to administer, from what I can gather, as there is a wide range of reasons why substances are on that list.

SilsoeSid
15th Sep 2016, 16:00
Fancy Bears' - Hack Team (http://fancybear.net/page-2.html)

I find it amazing that this country's best cyclists of all time, along with the most domineering female tennis players of all time et al, all suffer from exercise induced asthma.

VP959
15th Sep 2016, 16:11
Fancy Bears' - Hack Team (http://fancybear.net/page-2.html)

I find it amazing that this country's best cyclists of all time, along with the most domineering female tennis players of all time et al, all suffer from exercise induced asthma.
TBH, I was a bit surprised when I read about it earlier this morning, but, given the sensitivity around drug abuse and sport I doubt very much that the diagnosis is in much doubt.

After all, this isn't really secret information, it was declared and in the public domain years ago, at least in the case of Chris Froome. If there was doubt as to the diagnosis, then given that the Russians knew full well about it at the time they themselves were being investigated, I think they would have made a fuss if there was any realistic doubt as to the validity of the diagnosis.

SilsoeSid
15th Sep 2016, 16:18
No 'rules' have been broken that's all understood, along with everything our MP's get up to being within the 'rules'. You can't join the military with any hint of asthma in your medical records, however .....

Are all those medals, tour wins etc etc etc really not tainted?

wiggy
15th Sep 2016, 16:31
Of course as far as exercise induced asthma is concerned the vast majority of the population are never stressed enough for symptoms to manifest themselves..

exercise induced asthma (http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/exercise-induced-asthma.html#)

(Apologies for the "pop up" but you can get rid of it)

It gets pretty grey when you look at the very long list of banned substances and then realise that things like asthma and hay fever medications are listed.

+1.

TUEs have their place - Frankly if you look at the banned list you'll see if you ban TUEs you would stop legit competitors in any sport having treament for even the most minor ailment, in or out of competion. Do you want pro sport (any pro sport) to continue?

Are all those medals, tour wins etc etc etc really not tainted?

That's down to you, but I'd suggest these days if you are talking cycling then wins there are quite probably less tainted than the medals and trophies won in sports such as rugby, football, even tennis...

UniFoxOs
15th Sep 2016, 16:33
The most common is probably pseudoephedrine

Not any more, sadly

SilsoeSid
15th Sep 2016, 17:23
Do you want pro sport (any pro sport) to continue?

I remember when then Olympics were amateur ;)

VP959
15th Sep 2016, 17:47
Not any more, sadly
A quick look shows that pseudoephedrine is still in:

Nurofen Cold & Flu
Actifed
Contac
Benadryl Plus
Sinufed
Sinutab
Sudafed

They are all pretty common over-the-counter cold symptom and congestion relief medications here.

Interestingly, I see that a few, like Lemsip, have switched to either Phenylephrine or Dextromethorphan. The latter is not on the current banned substances list (here: By Substance | List of Prohibited Substances and Methods (http://list.wada-ama.org/by-substance/) ), but the former is.

BadgerGrowler
15th Sep 2016, 18:00
Didn't Scottish Skier Alan Baxter lose his medal, because he used an american version of an over the counter medication, which contains a banned substance, but the UK/European version didn't?

racedo
15th Sep 2016, 18:50
Athletes using TUE's just means they found a way around the regs...................... claiming its known about makes it even worse.

Its a abuse of the rules while claiming others are doping.

SpringHeeledJack
15th Sep 2016, 19:00
I find it amazing that this country's best cyclists of all time, along with the most domineering female tennis players of all time et al, all suffer from exercise induced asthma.

As alluded to by Wiggy, most people don't stress their lungs, bronchial tubes, mouth, nose even remotely enough to induce exercise induced asthma…..Imagine in the event that you need to run for a bus, perhaps 50m or even 100m, at the end you'd be gasping for air, heart pounding, but you'd recover quickly (hopefully!!). Now imagine that the bus keeps going and you keep chasing, and then the bus goes up a never ending incline and you keep chasing. The effort of 'digesting' so much oxygen, so quickly and excreting said waste air so quickly not only irritates the whole breathing apparatus, but also the whole blood system and it follows that your poor suffering body will try to 'manage' the airflow in and out by narrowing the bronchial tubes, creating a form of asthma. This effect is heightened or worsened :-) by cold or overly warm air.

That professional cyclists suffer from this more than many other types of athlete should be no surprise, as the bicycle supports the athlete and allows more pure performance (a bit like the rowers) which opens the door to complications that our creators probably hadn't envisaged ;-) As to whether athletes should be allowed medical exemptions to minimise this side effect vs another matter entirely.

ORAC
15th Sep 2016, 19:26
Athletes using TUE's just means they found a way around the regs...................... claiming its known about makes it even worse. Its a abuse of the rules while claiming others are doping. No, just as tax avoidance is not the same as tax evasion.

In sport, as in any other competitive activity such as finance, the best push the limit - without breaking it.

racedo
15th Sep 2016, 19:28
No, just as tax avoidance is not the same as tax evasion.

In sport, as in any other competitive activity such as finance, the best push the limit - without breaking it.

You mean like Apple.................... they didn't break any laws.

UniFoxOs
22nd Sep 2016, 15:45
VP, I think a quick google can be misleading as it can turn up many outdated pages. For example, the Contac web site states:-

Did you discontinue formulas containing pseudoephedrine?

Yes. As of October 2006 all Contac® Cold + Flu formulas which contained pseudoephedrine now contain phenylephrine

I bought a large pack of Sudafed last year, in order to have plenty in stock, only to find that they were not working. I was worried that I had become immune to PE, until I read the label to find there was none in it - it had suffered from what I call Jif-itis; this is where the "new improved" version isn't as good as the original, or doesn't even work at all.

VP959
22nd Sep 2016, 16:25
Interesting, thanks. I wonder why they switched the ingredients?

FWIW, on the few occasions when I've needed a decongestant, I've found pseudoephedrine to be better than the others, primarily because it doesn't make me feel dozy (well, any more dozy that usual). I shall have to read the labels more carefully, because in the past I've used Contac 400 (as it used to be called) and found it to be very effective. If it no longer contains pseudoephedrine then it's probably no better than any of the others, now.

G-CPTN
22nd Sep 2016, 16:39
Common brand names (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#Common_brand_names).

VP959
22nd Sep 2016, 17:46
Common brand names (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoephedrine#Common_brand_names).
Thanks very much for that, I thought I must be losing my sense of time, as I'm sure I'd bought Contac since 2006 and found that it worked OK. As that link says:
Contac (made by GlaxoSmithKline) — previously contained pseudoephedrine, now contains phenylephrine. As at Nov 2014 UK version still contains 30 mg Pseudoephedrine Hydrochloride per tablet.

This implies that the same brand name medication contains may contain different ingredients depending on where it's sold. Out of curiosity, I'd love to know why manufacturers feel the need to do this. It would seem logical, from a commercial standpoint, to manufacture the same medication for the global market, yet it seems that this may not be the case.

racedo
25th Sep 2016, 22:51
Seems like some Cycling heroes are struggling with explaining their TUE's

ShyTorque
26th Sep 2016, 00:16
I took Sudafed last winter and I never got to win any races.

Yamagata ken
26th Sep 2016, 02:49
@VP959. Maybe it's to do with national regulations. I know that pseudoephedrine and codeine (for example) are banned from over the counter medicines in Japan, but I had no problems buying them in Oz.

wiggy
26th Sep 2016, 07:17
Ken

Yes it is, which is why athletes travelling abroad have to be very very careful about even buying non-prescription/over the counter meds when away from base.

It's quite possible a bottle of "superwizzo" cold cure might be WADA compliant in Europe but the same brand bought on another continent might be loaded with a WADA non compliant substance.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/athletes-and-medications

SilsoeSid
26th Sep 2016, 11:24
Sporting drugs test failures: eight most unusual explanations, from veal to Vicks inhalers
Sporting drugs test failures: eight most unusual explanations, from veal to Vicks inhalers - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/drugsinsport/8034608/Sporting-drugs-test-failures-eight-most-unusual-explanations-from-veal-to-Vicks-inhalers.html)

Petr Korda, tennis player
Drug: Nandrolone
Explanation: The Czech left-hander, who was once ranked No 2 in the world, had a novel excuse for why the banned steroid nandrolone was found in his system during the 1998 Wimbledon tournament – his penchant for veal. While young calves are fattened on the steroid, experts said that Korda would have needed to have eaten 40 of the animals a day to have ingested the levels found in his body.
Result: A one-year ban, which effectively brought his professional career to a close.

Javier Sotomayor, high jumper
Drug: Cocaine
Explanation: Sotomayor protested his innocence after failing a drugs test at the 1999 Pan American Games, and won support from his outspoken president. In a televised address, Fidel Castro insisted that Sotomayor was set up by "professionals of counter-revolution" – namely the "Cuban-American mafia."
Result: The athlete was allowed to compete in the 2000 Olympics after his ban was shortened by the International Association of Athletics Federations. But Sotomayor chose to take early retirement after testing positive for nandrolone in 2001.

Daniel Plaza, race walker
Drug: Nandrolone
Explanation: The Olympic gold medal winner provoked prurient giggles around the world with his explanation for a failed test at the 1996 Spanish championships. He insisted that small amounts of the steroid entered his body as he performed oral sex on his pregnant wife.
Result: Pregnant women do produce nandrolone naturally and Plaza did eventually clear his name – albeit 10 years after testing positive.

Alain Baxter, skier
Drug: Methamphetamine
Explanation: The Scottish alpine skier's joy at winning the bronze medal at the 2002 Games in Salt Lake City was tempered by the news that trace quantities of a banned substance had been detected in his system. Baxter claimed, with evidence, that the methamphetamine came from a Vicks inhaler he used to treat a blocked up nose.
Result: Baxter was disqualified from the competition, but the fourth-placer skier refused to accept his bronze medal, saying that he did not believe the Scot was a cheat. The International Ski Federation also accepted Baxter's explanation, handing him a three month ban – the minimum they could impose.

Justin Gatlin, sprinter
Drug: Testosterone
Explanation: The World and Olympic 100 metres champion claimed that he was the victim of sabotage by a hostile masseur, who rubbed a cream containing the banned substance into his legs. According to Gatlin's coach Trevor Graham, the masseur Chris Whetstine held a grudge against the sprinter after being fired from his job. Mr Whetstine vehemently denied the allegations.
Result: Gatlin received a four year ban. He has recently returned to athletics, after flirting with a new career in the NFL.

Tyler Hamilton, cyclist
Drug: Oxygen-rich blood transfusion
Explanation: When The the US Anti-Doping Agency detected someone else's red blood cells in Hamilton's blood, the road racer blood had an imaginative excuse. He claimed that the cells belonged to a "vanishing twin" who died in the womb – an explanation considered theoretically possible but unlikely by medical experts. Sporting authorities were sceptical; the transfusion of blood containing high levels of oxygen-carrying red cells is known to increase athletic performance.
Result: Despite the "blood doping" allegations Hamilton was allowed to keep his 2004 Olympic medal because his second sample was untestable after being damaged in the laboratory. But he was banned for two years in 2005 after a second positive test.

Richard Gasquet, tennis player
Drug: Cocaine
Explanation: The young Frenchman said that the drug found in his system during the Sony Ericsson Open in Florida last year had entered his body through the mouth of a woman he kissed in a nightclub.
Result: The International Tennis Federation accepted Gasquet's excuse and overturned his 12-month ban.

Ross Rebagliati, snowboarder
Drug: THC, a chemical found in marijuana
Explanation: The Canadian claimed that he never smoked the recreational drug and suggested he was a victim of passive smoking. He admitted being in the room while friends took cannabis at party shortly before his 1998 Olympic triumph.
Result: Rebagliati was handed back his medal, partly because cannabis was not on the Olympic list of banned substances.

SilsoeSid
26th Sep 2016, 11:29
Wiggy, the Alain Baxter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Baxter) inhaler was one of those 'be careful abroad' moments. He used a run of the mill off the shelf Vicks nasal inhaler bought in the US that unfortunately was of a different make up than the ones in the UK. :\

wiggy
26th Sep 2016, 11:36
SiloeSid

Ah, thanks for that. When I was typing my post I knew there was classic case of a skier who got caught out buying abroad but due a combination of old age and pure forgetfulness I couldn't for the life of me remember the exact details, let alone the name.....

VP959
26th Sep 2016, 11:46
The listed athletes above don't seem to have had TUE's as far as I can see - they failed drugs testing, a whole different topic.

Athletes with a valid TUE are not cheating and have been approved to use the substances prescribed in the TUEs, so it is fundamentally wrong to link them with cheats.

The bottom line here is that the Russians are hacked off at being caught doping on an industrial scale, and are now trying to smear all athletes, worldwide, by means of hacking into their medical records.

The Russians are doing a very good job of trying to tie TUEs to doping in people's minds, and I don't think it is in any way helpful to international sport to try and help them.

wiggy
26th Sep 2016, 13:36
VP 959

Agreed, and others see it that way as well:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/21/fancy-bears-leaks-athletes-doping-russia-cyber-hackers

Aa far as Bradley Wiggins is concerned he has over the years not gone out of his way to endear himself to the press, so it is just possible he's up for special attention and a bit of payback... OTOH Richard Williams is as good a writer on cycling as any in the UK mainstream media, his opinion here:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/bradley-wiggins-doping-rules-fancy-bears-tues

The Nip
26th Sep 2016, 15:46
VP, Wiggy,

Although I agree with you and you are correct, perception has and will cause damage to his reputation.

David Walsh has one view and Paul Kimmage another.

Irrespective of these, many people will ask the question many asked about V Armistead. If this had been a Russian cyclist, what would you be saying?

wiggy
26th Sep 2016, 16:36
Irrespective of these, many people will ask the question many asked about V Armistead. If this had been a Russian cyclist, what would you be saying?


Oh trust me, despite what some may think I'm not in the business of defending the indefensible ( for those that don't know this is the issue of missing three consecutive out of competition no notice tests)...

As far as Lizzie Armistead is concerned she was, shall we say, "very fortunate", in the way she was handled. I think there are more than a few people far more into cycling/athletics than me with similar opinions, often unprintable. At best she was utterly unprofessional, at worse she might have had err...Russian tendencies.

By way of contrast potential golden girl Christine Ohuruogu got sanctioned a few years back for doing similar (I still think she got off lightly as well, but that's probably subject for another debate)...Of course in Miss Armistead's case I'm sure the fact this all blew up just before the Olympics and she was thought to be in with a shout of winning the women's road race had nothing to do with the decision to discount her first missed test.

Obviously (?) completely different issue from either TUEs or being caught out buying stuff abroad.

SilsoeSid
26th Sep 2016, 17:31
Sorry, I put the 'eight excuses' post up for the interest value, not to degrade or compare the genuine TUE holders to drugs cheats.

However, the timing of Sir Brads injections has raised eyebrows and to say he had them in order to perform on a level playing field, in a sport renowned for its drug usage, seems to me to be a strange thing to say.

Sharron Davies is usually quite vocal on such debates about drug usage, TUE or not ..... she is strangely quiet at the moment.

VP959
26th Sep 2016, 17:38
If there is a consensus view that the TUE system needs to be revised, or even removed (although, frankly, I think that the latter option is near-impossible to do) then I am sure that the WADA will look at it.

Given the high profile of doping in sport in recent years, and the Russians hacking into confidential medical records and making them public, then I doubt that WADA has any alternative but to review the system.

My personal view is that it seems to work fairly well for the vast majority of athletes, but there may well be minor improvements that could make the TUE system more transparent, and so less subject to the sort of silly games the Russians are playing. Although I'm a very strong defender of an individual's right to privacy, there is, perhaps, a case here to make an exception for any sports person with regard to being prescribed medication under a TUE.

If it was well-known which sports people were taking WADA approved medication, and when, then there would be no scope for the sort of exploitation that the Russians are clearly attempting. It reminds me of security clearance, where it wasn't what your weaknesses or proclivities were that mattered, it was not telling the vetting officer about them that was important, as once known they couldn't be used as blackmail.

In the specific case of Sir Bradley Wiggins, I'm inclined to agree with wiggy. He's had a tendency to be brusque with the media in the past, and so now the media think they have something to pin on him they are virtually ignoring the records of the dozens of other sports people that the Russians have leaked and homing in on him, pretty much out of revenge, I suspect.

SilsoeSid
26th Sep 2016, 17:40
Apart from the obvious :rolleyes: What are people's views on beetroot juice?

racedo
26th Sep 2016, 18:03
Given the high profile of doping in sport in recent years, and the Russians hacking into confidential medical records and making them public, then I doubt that WADA has any alternative but to review the system.


The blame the Russians for every leak gets old........Western Media use it as a get out.

VP959
26th Sep 2016, 18:12
The blame the Russians for every leak gets old........Western Media use it as a get out.
Agreed, but in this case there seems very little doubt that "Fancy Bears" is, in reality, a group of Russian hackers. Whether they are acting with the authority of the state is questionable, my personal view is that they are acting out of revenge for actions taken against Russia in the Olympic Games and Paralympics, and may well be unconnected with the Russian government.

It's a fact that some countries have a lot more "black hat" hackers than other countries, and Russia, China and a few other states seem to have more than most.

SilsoeSid
26th Sep 2016, 18:38
Who cares who hacked!
The athletes & teams say that nothing was hidden and all was above board; so why are they worried that everything is now in the open and that the public knows that their heroes and idols were taking performance enhancing drugs ... albeit within the rules?

The Nip
26th Sep 2016, 18:41
There is nothing new in the ex sports professionals, who are now BBC commentators, to ignore (not criticise) British althletes when they are embroiled in drugs rumours. They all were very quiet when all the problems with Linford Christie arose.

Surely Hackers only 'hack' when there is something hidden?

SpringHeeledJack
27th Sep 2016, 10:54
Apart from the obvious What are people's views on beetroot juice?

Well, it turns your pee and poo the colour of claret and you then worry yourself sick thinking that you've got internal bleeding and aren't long for this world :-( Oh! You mean how it lowers your blood pressure, how it help produce the constituents of blood cells thus boosting the body's ability to oxygenate the system and boosts one's sexual stamina should one be so lucky ? Not to everyone's taste, but damned fine stuff and LEGAL ;-) I wonder if Brad&Co have TUE's for the extra extra special brew that is only available to those of the Brotherhood of the Sacred Beetroot ?

gemma10
27th Sep 2016, 14:06
And I thought it stood for Tuesday, which it is.

racedo
27th Sep 2016, 18:23
The athletes & teams say that nothing was hidden and all was above board; so why are they worried that everything is now in the open and that the public knows that their heroes and idols were taking performance enhancing drugs ... albeit within the rules?

Apparently because their lives would be in danger was one excuse..............

Dan Gerous
27th Sep 2016, 19:58
If all these athletes are so poorly and disadvantaged against non asthmatics, shouldn't they be competing in the Paralympics instead?

wiggy
27th Sep 2016, 20:30
That was suggested earlier, seems a bit extreme. TBF you'd have to put everybody, not just those with breathing difficulties but everybody who had ever had a TUE into the Paralympics.....there'd probably be nobody at the main games and I suspect the genuine paralympians would be mighty p******d off ...

Of course the next question would be what do you then do with people who are both paralympian and have had a TUE......

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheating_at_the_Paralympic_Games