BBMF Lancaster IFR?

[Flugplatz]

Landed circa 14.00 hrs at Southampton (Eastleigh) on Flybe from Dusseldorf and on the way out, whilst admiring the unusually high numer of executive jets, amongst them was the the BBMF Lancaster doing engine runs! Great to see her, particuarly juxtaposed with all the shiny, pointy things.

Weather was pretty crap with a layered drizzly overcast with low cloud-base. Got me thinking about whether some flightdeck originality has been sacrificed in the name of modern practical capability in regards equipment fit for IFR flying? I know there are now two pilots in the cockpit, but does the BBMF Lancaster have any upgraded IFR fit?

I know the air-display season is coming to a close pretty much with the last of the Duxford Airshows happening tomorrow; and I suspect the crew were not even thinking of fying in those conditions and were working out when they might get airborne again. Anyway, a very welcome sight especially regarding the historic significance of Eastleigh :D

Flug

[GeeRam]

PA was due to display at Goodwood Revival today, but weather was atrocious there pretty much all day, so I wonder if she got out of Eastliegh to make the display at Southport or not? The BBMF fighters never got out of Goodwood.

BBMF not listed as displaying at Duxford.

[Treble one]

The Lancaster was unable to display at Duxford today due to weather-is due to display again tomorrow-weather forecast is much better.

[The Flying Stool]

I remember being told a few years ago that all of the BBMF fleet except the Dakota is VFR only. The Dakota can fly IFR but is currently grounded due to engine issues.

[NutLoose]

As it will be maintained to the equivalent of the permit to fly, all aircraft under that I believe are VFR only, however the Vulcan managed to get an IFR clearance I think. The Dak as an ex commercial aircraft will possibly not be operated under the Permit requirement.


I saw some poor Cessna today awfully low (on the way to Cosford) obviously struggling along VFR under a really low and diminishing cloud base.

[Arm out the window]

The old blokes who flew them must have a quiet chuckle thinking the youth of today aren't allowed to go into IMC - 'a dodgy old artificial horizon and DR nav not good enough for you eh!'

[A and C]

The old guys only had to cope with bad weather, night fighters, flack and poor navigation aids............ Modern aviation has Lawyers who spend years looking over a decision that you had to make in a split second to try to ruin your life in order to make a living......and charge the earth for doing it.

[Hempy]

The old blokes who flew them must have a quiet chuckle thinking the youth of today aren't allowed to go into IMC - 'a dodgy old artificial horizon and DR nav not good enough for you eh!'

Given the huge number of aircraft and crews lost due to bad weather during the war, they'd more likely be saying 'think yourselves lucky that you get to stay home'.

[Lima Juliet]

During my time on BBMF we had all the kit for IFR including a VOR/DME - the VOR cunningly hidden at the back of the cockpit. But why risk the old girl when she wasn't that well equipped for IMC flight and bad weather anyway.

[Flugplatz]

Thanks for the info guys, weather much better today so lets hope everyone gets to enjoy the show. I suppose I should have asked what capability to fly precision approaches (ILS) might the Lancaster have, but as has been said on here, why take the chance just to get a bit of extra flexibility.

Hats off to all who fly her as I hear that roll inputs can take quite some time to start happening!

FLUG

[Pontius Navigator]

We didn't have VOR/DME initially but did have a Tacan mounted centrally on the coaming. I am not sure about comms, probably borrowed a PTR 175 and ARC 52. I know we had VHF and didn't need to consider 're-crystalising.

[Arm out the window]

But why risk the old girl when she wasn't that well equipped for IMC flight and bad weather anyway.

Absolutely, I was just being a bit flippant. No offence to anyone, least of all the people who keep these beautiful old machines flying.

[rolling20]

When new and they had a job to do, they were flown in all weathers. Black Thursday Dec16th 1943, some 150 airman lost their lives in crashes over England, due to fog. 97 Squadron lost over 49 men. One of the youngest Wing Commanders also perished, 22 year old David Holford CO of 100 Squadron.

[H Peacock]

Neither the BBMF Lanc nor Dak have any 'additional' flight instrumentation added to their main instrument panels, i.e. they are both 'original'. The Dak does therefore have its twin V/UHF radios in addition to ADF, VOR/DME and ILS, the Lanc only having a VOR then TACAN mounted at the Nav's station but with no bearing readout visible to either pilot.

Both aircraft do have a modern mode-S transponder fitted.

Therefore, from an IMC piloting perspective, in addition to an altimeter, ASI and VSI, both cockpits rely on just an artificial horizon, Turn-&-Slip, Compass/DI. Not much to fly IMC safely in this day and age. That said, both aircraft are permitted to be 'flown through shallow cloud layers that do not constitute any icing risk.'; therefore flown IMC. This requirement being added to help avoid the possibility of getting trapped by an ever-deteriorating weather situation. Notwithstanding any desire not to press on into poor weather, if the 'safest' option remaining is to go up through the weather it is at least theoretically sanctioned.

The idea is to attempt to maintain wings-level flight while climbing straight ahead, not turning. Both the Lanc and the Dak have have made use of this clearance, but the debate about 'shallow layer' continued long after landing! I know of one occasion where the Lanc came out on-top with a quite considerable heading change from when it initiated the climb! With only one artificial horizon fitted there is no redundancy. The Canberra T4 was probably the last RAF aircraft where partial-panel IMC flying was taught!

Despite the warmer conditions expected in the summer display months, engine/airframe icing is the main danger of taking the Lanc or Dak IMC. Whilst the Dak does have carb heating controls, the Lanc doesn't. Neither airframe has any wing anti-ice system, the leading edge boots on the Dak having been painted on following a ground incident many moons ago.

[Wander00]

Well, yesterday at Duxford the weather was pretty awful. Of course the organisers have transferred the risk to the punters now, as you can only get in prebooked, so although the weather was rubbish they still got the money. However, it seemed that although a lot of people there, many had decided that tickets or not, it was not worth turning up

[Dan Gerous]

That's the main reason I don't go to air shows now. All pre booked, and since I go to see aircraft flying, if the weather is no good there's no point going. Ticket prices are steep enough at some of these shows, without the additional travel costs.

[DuncanF]

Accidentally in Southport this weekend on family business. Just back from committing golf at the Southport Links where we had spectacular views of the BBMF and others as they made their turns west to south for the runs along the seafront.

The typhoon will be here in 40 minutes setting off alarms, startling small children and perturbing the wildlife.

[Basil]

startling small children and perturbing the wildlife
Good! :E . . .

[Wander00]

Good job not in Cornwall ......

[andytug]

Best view of the Lancaster ever, they did a flypast over Tarleton for a local man who was involved with the ATC and whose funeral was yesterday. Came right over our car very low, incredible sound!

[dragartist]

I cant remember the exact date or the SRIM number but latest Narco King instrument suite was designed and installed by EWAU at Wyton. probably mid to late 80s. One of the main guys on the Team, Ken Upson died a while back. the design team leader is one of my buddies on farce book. I have seen the two guys who did the electrical design around town recently.
I got to detail up the special camlock fastener that held the instrument panel up between two frames so it was disguised on the ground. This was based on one I designed for a quick change antenna for the Gazelle. The guys also cribbed my IFF antenna installation design for the Andover. Of the 30 of us in the design office most of us got to put our names on at least one detail drawing just so we could say we worked on the bomber. There is a photo of me with hair and flared trousers at BBMF that my mate sent me a few years back. I also remember a later job on the intercom system where Ex Shackleton station boxes with the Bakerlite knobs were modified with new printed circuit boards an solid state amplifiers.
I would imagine the installation has been updated since. particularly with more modern miniature kit available. There was a plan to install a boomerang aerial hidden inside the H2S radome but this never materialised. I do remember one of the proposal to stick an antenna close to the static vents. I went onto do other things part way through so never saw the completed installation. I am sure there will be some photos somewhere.

[Pontius Navigator]

HP, interesting. On the season I flew in here the Tacan was mounted top centre. The whole time we had a coupling unit error with the bearing 40 deg in error. As maintenance was unfunded we carried no essential faults lest the authorities thought her too expensive to maintain.