Checking on a potential 'Mitty'

[Been There...]

I have been asked about how to identify whether a certain individual is who they say they are.

He is signing emails as Wing Commander xxxx xxxx with no (Retired) at the end.
Can find his service number and name in the London Gazette with a promotion to Flt Lt as a short service commission but no letter associated with the number which appears at little odd. Date of entry there is 1979.
Nothing after this date to show his promotion beyond that date.
He is suspected of retiring as a Flt Lt and then working in a civil service role in a commensurate SO1 post and therefore using Wing Commander.

I suggested to my colleague to contact RAF Disclosures at RAF Cranwell who were not interested and suggest that my colleague called the police.

The likely first question will be what evidence do you have...

Linked to this, (Retd) as I understand it, should only be used if the person retired from the substantive rank and not a civil service equivalent. So even if he did retire as a civil servant in a SO1 role, Wing Commander is not correct. And the abscence of (Retd) is a definite no no.

Any other suggestions other than approaching the individual directly as it is a rather delicate position the said person is applying for and want to keep relationships open. However, the alarm bells are ringing that this person isn't who they say they are.

Thanks in advance

[Pontius Navigator]

Actually the correct styles are:

Wg Cdr, RAF or Wg Cdr, RAFR
or when retired Wg Cdr

As an SO1, was he uniformed or not?

[Chris Kebab]

I have seen guys in civil service MSF posts use a rank - and not always with (redt) which is probably incorrect but I have never seen one claim to be at a rank above that at which he retired. That is plain naughty whether he is an SO1 post or not.

[brokenlink]

It may have been a Military Support Function (MSF) post he was in. He may have been required to wear a uniform in that rank even though he was technically CS at SO1 level.

[Cows getting bigger]

Pedant mode - a retired officer should NOT use the abbreviation Retd (or equivalent) after his name unless it would cause confusion within an organisation (for example, ex wg cdr now working within government with the equivalent status of a flt lt). However, a retired officer shall not be identified as Wg Cdr M Mouse RAF, he needs to bin the RAF bit. So, it is perfectly acceptable for a retired officer to call himself Wg Cdr W Mitty as long as he actually held the rank. There's a whole argument about use of rank however I can say, as a retired officer, it is sometimes useful for people to know your 'form'.

Turning to your particular Walt, ask him what was his last tour and when.

Here's an interesting one - ex RAF senior officer who is now an RAFVR(T) fg off. What rank should he hold, and when. :)

[Tankertrashnav]

What about ranks below squadron leader? I was always under the impression that below that rank (or equivalent) it was not correct to use former service rank, but when I was a member of the RAF Club they used to write to me as Flight Lieutenant T. Tankertrash. Was that incorrect? Never use it myself - don't think it would impress anyone!

[Cows getting bigger]

I would have kept the Flt Lt bit and changed away from Tankertrash by deed poll. :)

[Tankertrashnav]

I've got one of those names that you always have to spell for people. Tankertrash would be a much simpler choice!

[NutLoose]

Flight Lieutenant T. Tankertrash. Was that incorrect? Never use it myself - don't think it would impress anyone!


I'm impressed...............

Will pm you the address for the cheque

[Treble one]

TTN I too thought this was the case, but my old man retired as a Flt Lt (RAFVR) and was allowed to keep his substantive rank.


I thought he may be winding me up but it is actually gazetted thus....


He never uses it obviously.

[Pontius Navigator]

I stand to be corrected but once I saw that flt lt was correct but captain was not. Possibly because a retired captain from the Blues and Royals might be confused with a real captain :).

The same source had flt lt RAF to take precedence after Lt RN but ahead of Mr rtd.

BTW, when working with green as CS they were totally confused by our status which was as RAFR and not RAF Retd. We had to keep telling them we were commissioned into the RAFR and had the scrolls to prove it.

[Herod]

Talking of captains, I see that BALPA has now a (presumably) different admin officer. I'm retired now and have associate membership. Every time the BALPA magazine arrived, it was addressed to Capt xxx. The latest one is Mr. xxx. There goes my last link with commercial aviation.

Flt Lt Herod (now I know I can use it)

[Been There...]

Airpolice, no. Completely separate issue, I hadn't heard of your case/issue.

All, thanks for the comments & feedback. Very useful.

[Jimlad1]

Is individual in an RO / MSF or CS post?

If so then a conversation is appropriate. If not, ignore him as a dull mitty.

Job jobbed.

[Melchett01]

It may have been a Military Support Function (MSF) post he was in. He may have been required to wear a uniform in that rank even though he was technically CS at SO1 level.

CS at SO1 level. Hmmm I know a few civil servants insist that as a C1 grade (SEO I think?) they are wing commanders and will be treated as such, with all sorts of foot stomping and other displays of what I recall being described as 'Airmen tendencies' when they either aren't treated as such or are given the appropriate workload.

So just what is the appropriate reposte to such a claim? I know what I'd like to say, but that would probably lead to a complaint.

[Shackman]

Re the service number - officers did not have letters before their number until sometime later than '79. Apparently it was something to do with the introduction of some calculating machine or other that could not cope with people only having numbers (queue 'I'm not a number.......') so we all got 'issued' with a letter as well. I also believe that there is some calculation you (or said calculating machine) can use with your number to come up with the letter. so why we had to have them I never really understood.

[air pig]

Been there and Shackman:

As PMRAFNS officers, we only had a 7 figure number and no letters in 1982.

[Union Jack]

OMG! It must be Groundhog Day.....:ugh:

Jack

[ShyTorque]

My service number has a letter and I was commissioned before 1979.

[Sun Who]

Anyone using their military rank post-retirement form the military, is sad IMHO.

However, someone felt it worthy of an FOI: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/345294/20140815-AF_Ranks_Equivalent_to_Civil_Service_001.pdf

Sun Who

[ORAC]

Joined commissioned in 1974 and my service number has/had 7 digits and a suffix - xxxxxxxT

[air pig]

The PMs were always a separate organisation within the wider RAF and actually did not admit men until 1980.

[ricardian]

The PMs were always a separate organisation within the wider RAF and actually did not admit men until 1980.
When in sick bay at RAF Cosford 1960 the morning "rounds" were done by a Flight Officer from PMRAFNS and a Corporal Technician. Both had the same medical qualifications (SRN)

[FantomZorbin]

Shackman et al


The letter added to our numbers acted as a 'checksum' ie. if the number was entered incorrectly the machine would spot it (hopefully). It was all to do with our records going digital.


Somewhere in FZ towers I still have the algorithm for the check ... now that is sad! :sad:

[Pegasus107]

You need someone still in the MOD who can check their systems ;-)

[Pontius Navigator]

Shackman, the letter follows for officers.
Shy Torque letters were introduced for all serving officers regardless of commissioning date.

What I don't know is where the letter is for direct entry officers before they are commissioned. I believe the case for those commissioned from the ranks the letter is moved from front to rear.

Also a lot can be gleaned from the initial nuymber too - 423 was direct entry whereas 608 was Cranwell - and so on. Changing branches, commissioning etc didn't alter that original number.

[Pontius Navigator]

FZ, the algorithm was aired on Pprune

[Pontius Navigator]

Incidentally we had a C2 retired Lt Col who always answered the phone Colonel. As we were appointed C2 before him and held an active RAFR commission, we never called him other than Tony.

[Sloppy Link]

From the Army view and like the other two services, there are those that can't let go, I've been led to believe you can only use Xxx(Retd) in your substantive rank on relinquish/retire of a Regular Commission. Short Service, Temporary, Emergency, et al don't fit the criteria.

[Jimlad1]

The eternal CS 'rank' debate depresses me. It seems an MOD problem as no other dept I've worked in has ever been rank focused - e.g. I spent months working with someone before discovering they were a 1*.

I think the issue is the military is a visibly judgemental hierachy, by which I mean when people in uniform meet, they surreptitiously check out the rank patches to determine how to act. My experience has been that some areas and military individuals struggle to cope with people who don't wear uniform or hold a military rank - particularly civil servants.

At the same time, the CS has had since its inception a perfectly workable and functional rank/grade structure which predates the current RAF and RN structures, and which shows the level of seniority a CS holds (e.g. an SEO is more senior than an HEO). This allows you to work out who reports to whom, and who is the boss. The problem has come because MOD has had to work out how the CS rank structure corresponds to the military one for reporting purposes. This has led to the abomination of a phrase 'XX Equivalent'. It doesnt mean person X is a Wg Cdr, it means they are an CS SO1 Grade, a subtle but very important difference.

My experience has been the people that say that they are a 'Wing Cdr' are doing it for two reasons. Firstly because they know just how easy it is to wind people up and get a bite with the military by doing so, and its very funny to watch. Secondly its because they are in the very very tiny minority of people who are a little bit strange and probably deserve our sympathy not abuse. A final category is the retired Officer, many of whom seem to make it up as they go (the old uniformed SO1 MSF who insisted on wearing his full Colonels rank tabs and being called Colonel was a classic in my experience).

Basically, extend the professional courtesy due to those civil servants promoted to the position in their system in the way they should show it to military officers in the same way. Then relax and worry about far more interesting things than the CS grade structure.Don't do as the Army has done, which is to recruit a CS Grade 7 (OF5 level) and tell them that their 1RO is a Major...

[charliegolf]

You need someone still in the MOD who can check their systems ;-)

Breaking the law as they go...

On topic, I'm with Jimlad. If a CS Grade 7 needs to call themselves 'Colonel', they have enough problems to be going on with. Should a 'real' retired Colonel try to get Mrs Golf to call him Colonel (him, women are more secure in their skins) he'd be sorry! As for Sgt Golf (Retd), he's hoping for some fooling around with a G7 'Colonel' later!

CG

[oldpax]

I have a GSM and when it arrived the prefix letter was wrong!

[Basil]

I'm not even Flt Lt in a mil organisation to which I belong.
Always said I didn't want to be a fifty year old flight lieutenant.

Interestingly, many believe that only Sqn Ldr or equiv and above may retain rank after leaving service.
MoD sent me a letter specifically saying that, even as a Flt Lt, I could retain the style.
They also said I couldn't wear my uniform to a fancy dress party which got me thinking I'd just spent the last eight years in a great party :ok:

[air pig]

Ricardian:

Indeed, men were in the medical technical branch and male nurse were commissioned into that branch, until the PMs were dragged screaming to commission males.

[Melchett01]

What I don't know is where the letter is for direct entry officers before they are commissioned. I believe the case for those commissioned from the ranks the letter is moved from front to rear

PN,

I believe that is the case. I was attested into the UAS and was told that although we lived in the Officers' Mess, we were officially Airmen in rank terms. My service number started with a letter and then 7 digits. Fast forward a few years and on commissioning I retained the exact same digits, but the letter had moved to the end of the service number.

That would appear to fit your hypothesis, the only caveat being I don't know whether UAS numbers were out of the ordinary in that sense. I presume not as it would get hellishly complicated if UAS numbers differed markedly what with numbers for sponsored / UAS students, direct entry graduates, direct entry and females all having different numbers.

[Wander00]

Many years ago in local government we had a senior member of the County Council, who insisted on being called "Captain". then he was to be appointed a Deputy Lieutenant so they checked his record, to discover that he had been an acting captain, before he lost a foot on the Normandy beaches. We then a received an instruction that "in the interests of democracy and equality" he was henceforth to be known as Mr..... As he was a pretty arrogant person (one quote "I know what consultation mans, it is when I tell my pig man there will be a new pig unit and it is going there") there were waves of sympathy....not. Sad really.

[Baldegret]

Possible legislative action on its way in this area:
Fake military heroes would face jail under proposed 'Walter Mitty' law (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/05/fake-military-heroes-would-face-jail-under-proposed-walter-mitty/)

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, the Cranwell 608 series I mentioned was of course for College entrants for the 3 year course - imagine that now. UAS entrants had a different number but in those days they were a rare beast.

We had one at ITS, used to wander around on his own in a proper uniform just doing the odd thing to complete his training before Nav School. He made sqn ldr in 14 years and was our nav ldr on 201.

Distressing further, he decided he would check our logs and charts and we were to leave them in his office. My Nav 2 and I gave him a stiff ignoring, pointed out they were classified and he could peruse at leisure in Ops. Other juniors complied but he never challenged us nor did he check them.

[57mm]

In KSA we had an ex Flt Lt WSO and noticed that his mail was addressed to "Sqn Ldr xxxxxx". After a severe wigging from us, he reverted to what we mere mortals used.

[ShyTorque]

They also said I couldn't wear my uniform to a fancy dress party......

Fat chance (literally - it seems to have shrunk a few sizes).

[Basil]

"I know what consultation mans, it is when I tell my pig man there will be a new pig unit and it is going there"
Sounds like good firm leadership :E

[Mick Strigg]

It was always my understanding that when you leave the Army or RAF, you resign your commission and therefore you are not entitled to use your rank any longer.

As the Senior Service, when a RN officer leaves the service, he retains his commission and therefore retains his rank. He doesn't even have to use (Retd) as he always holds his commission.

Correct?

[Wander00]

Him leader of the Council - me Staff Side Secretary - loads of fun................could start a whole new thread, but hardly aviation related

[Danny42C]

There are more "true to type" Walter Mittys around, and some of these have awakened interest on the "Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet" Thread. If you go to Page 294, #5864 of that Thread, the first Open Post on the subject appears, and continues sporadically after that for some time. Meanwhile I had a PM from a member who had a 1945 Air Force List: he could not be traced.

The really remarkable thing about the whole story is that the BBC "Look North" Programme and the organisers of quite important events, seem to have taken it at face value without even the most basic of checks.

I would have thought that if a complete stranger turned up out of the blue, claiming to be a WWII Bomber Command hero - a Wing Commander pilot no less, in this case - the first thing to do would be to ask him for his log book. If he's "lost it" or "the dog ate it", he is immediately suspect. Check with the Index to the 1945 Air Force List. If he's not in there, in the Branch and rank he claims, he's a fraud.

It is a salutary tale,

Danny 42C.

[Melchett01]

There are more "true to type" Walter Mittys around, and some of these have awakened interest on the "Gaining an R.A.F. Pilot's Brevet" Thread. If you go to Page 294, #5864 of that Thread, the first Open Post on the subject appears, and continues sporadically after that for some time. Meanwhile I had a PM from a member who had a 1945 Air Force List: he could not be traced.

The really remarkable thing about the whole story is that the BBC "Look North" Programme and the organisers of quite important events, seem to have taken it at face value without even the most basic of checks.

I would have thought that if a complete stranger turned up out of the blue, claiming to be a WWII Bomber Command hero - a Wing Commander pilot no less, in this case - the first thing to do would be to ask him for his log book. If he's "lost it" or "the dog ate it", he is immediately suspect. Check with the Index to the 1945 Air Force List. If he's not in there, in the Branch and rank he claims, he's a fraud.

It is a salutary tale,

Danny 42C.

Indeed. I remember reading a comment, possibly over on ARRSE, that it was easy to out a Walt simply by asking for his service number. Logic being that it's unique to the person and therefore verifiable and it's probably the one thing you will never forget in a hurry, with that specific detail often outlasting the ravages of time. No / incorrect service number is always going to flag up, even amongst the 'Special' types.

[langleybaston]

As a civilian, I saw no problem within the part of the organisation in which I served. As an example, HQ RAFG.

The potential problems were those external to the comfort zone, where I could see who was who at a glance, but airmen at the gates of the Clutch etc were less than courteous on occasion. As my gopher/driver was often in his RAF[VR] Flt Lt uniform, that could grate. And me wearing a tie!

No remedy, just suck it up and look at the paycheque.

[Haraka]

One "ex Meteor Pilot" down my old local.. "Couldn't remember the marks he flew" :)

[ian16th]

Indeed. I remember reading a comment, possibly over on ARRSE, that it was easy to out a Walt simply by asking for his service number. Logic being that it's unique to the person and therefore verifiable and it's probably the one thing you will never forget in a hurry, with that specific detail often outlasting the ravages of time. No / incorrect service number is always going to flag up, even amongst the 'Special' types. There was at least one circumstance in the RAF where an individual would change his service number.

This is when a Boy Entrant transferred to be an Apprentice.

In these cases the B/E's 19xxxxx was replaced by a 58xxxx number.

[Pontius Navigator]

And some officers don't have Service numbers.

Answers on a cheque please.

[ORAC]

Hmmmmm, Padres?

[ORAC]

And if the Queen has a number, is it 1?

[Pontius Navigator]

Gp Cpt and above.

[Il Duce]

Elle Duchese is employed at a local educational institute and related a tale of a recent visitor who had been invited to address the pupils on the subject of personal achievement. This chap claimed to have been RAF then SAS, was an eye witness in New York on 11 Sep, was at S. Hussein's execution and with the SEALs in Abbottabad for the demise of OBL. Now runs his own multi-million pound company. How on earth the school allowed him through the door in the first place beggars belief.

[Melchett01]

And some officers don't have Service numbers.

Answers on a cheque please.

PN, how does that work?

[Slow Biker]

Whilst doing my porridge at HQSTC I had a letter addressed to 'The Chief technician'.......
The envelope was annotated 'I think this is for you chief' signed PSO to Chief Engineer.
On the CS grade thing, I used to attend meetings chaired by an SPTO; his opening statement was to inform us he was a wg cdr equivalent. Got into an ar*e kicking contest when I would not allow him onto a live range and so enjoyed it when he pompously referred to the orders only to find that as the specialist I executive command of that phase.

[EngAl]

I started my service with a 6 digit apprentice number. In 65 I acquired a letter prefix, but it was followed by 0 (zero) to pad it out to 8 characters.
On commissioning the letter was moved to the end and my number usually then had 7 characters, but on some documents it was again padded to 8 by a zero at the front.
Since retiring 16 years ago I have never felt constrained to use my rank although some ex military people will sometimes ask. I don't think it's really relevant anymore. However, it was my understanding that officers of field rank(major) and above could use their rank on retirement if they wished and those below had to apply for permission to do so.
Pedant point: PN it's not the case that Gp Capts and above don't have numbers, just that they are no longer required to be used on lists, etc.

[Old Bricks]

Always good in theory. Having been transmogrified into the hierarchy and being told that I no longer had a Service Number, sent a 1771 in which was smartly returned because it could not be paid without a Service Number! Money more important than status - filled in number.

[Bigbux]

That's your adj's job! Hence, within a few months of promotion Gp Capts forget they ever had a service no. ;)

[Tankertrashnav]

Talking about appearing on lists, I only learned a year or two back (on here) that the RAF list no longer appears in book form but continues to be published online.

Just today I caught the tail end of a news item which seemed to be saying that as publishing officers' details online is now seen as a security risk, they would now be removed. If this is the case (and I may have misunderstood) that means that the RAF (and Navy and Army) Lists will no longer exist, or if they do they will be classified documents. Is this right?

Personally I can't see that simply publishing the name 1234567 Flt Lt T. Tankertrash, Gd (N) in a list of thousands of other names either in print or online assists a potential terrorist, but again, perhaps I'm wrong?

it was easy to out a Walt simply by asking for his service number ... it's probably the one thing you will never forget in a hurry,

I once bought a very nice group of medals to a retired Grenadier Guards officer, with a lot of associated paperwork. Among this was a copy of a letter he had written to the War Office (as it then was) asking them to remind him of his service number, as he had forgotten it. I guess guards officers didn't use their numbers very often!

[Warmtoast]

Medal Wearing Walter Mittys discussed in Parliament on 6th September

Two days ago there was a piece in The Times, the Evening Standard and Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3775608/Walter-Mitty-conmen-lie-military-past-soon-face-jail.html

and here: Government to back jail for ?medal-wearing Walter Mittys? | London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/government-to-back-jail-for-medalwearing-walter-mittys-a3337811.html)
That the government was to back jail for 'medal wearing Walter Mittys'

More here from yesterday's (Tuesday) Parliamentlive.tv where the Defence Committee discus the issue:
Parliamentlive.tv - Defence Committee (http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/197645e3-84de-41e9-a1a6-d34586d0d512)

[Pontius Navigator]

Old Bricks, good point. Now our staish at Coningsby was quite proud of his number, began 4231. It meant he had been able to jump above the 4th missing 3rd rung on his DEC tie and topped out on the 5th - well below a Warrant Officer's climb to fame

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, in the Cold War we expected the Soviets to have the AF List, the Gazette, and any Home Town Boy stories. Match that to your dog tags and they were half way there. WAD, COT, CON etc scrawled inside one's flying kit just about completed your public persona for interrogation.

Now, with Farsebook, BMD records etc they have you cradle to cell - who needs the RAF List?

[NutLoose]

A reply on the link from Warmtoasts post

Do the Royals come under the category of re-enactment or acting?


:E

[Tankertrashnav]

P-N - I agree, with all the other sources you mention potential baddies have all the info they need without having to refer to a simple list of names. If they can check my internet usage, for example, they will find I am addicted to porn (of the aviation and railway variety ;))

I've read Warmtoast's link and I'm not sure that I think criminalising Walt medal wearers is the way to go. Scorn and contempt, yes, but I dont think we need more laws - the blokes that are using a fabricated service career to faciliate fraud are already committing an offence, but I dont think jail is the place for the sad characters who just want to strut around on Remembrance Day parades etc. I understand the Americans have their Stolen Valor laws, but do we want to follow in their footsteps? In the US the military have gone from being objects of contempt back in the 60s to the present state of affairs where a pay clerk at Fort Hicksville, Idaho is treated as a war hero.

Nutloose - do they include Prince Phillip, Prince William, Prince Harry or Prince Andrew in their category?

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm surprised there is no offical guidance - or at least no-one has posted a link to same on here

Suggests there are really no current rules and you can do what you wish........ short of mis-representation in the course of a crime I guess......

[Hydromet]

TTN, I worked with a walt who was passing himself off as a Lt. Col., and was outed after organising a rather large Anzac Day parade. In court, he was fined some small, odd amount - presumably what he had in his pocket.
About 20 years later, he'd promoted himself to Brigadier, and the small country Returned Services League club where he was a member was bitterly divided over whether he was real or not. Of course, the army could not find his records because the WW II operations he was involved in were still top secret.

[NutLoose]

I dont think jail is the place for the sad characters who just want to strut around on Remembrance Day parades etc

I must admit, I have never felt the urge to ever attend one of those, remembrance parade that is, ohh and not a jail either.. polishing ones lonesome medal and turfing up in best bib and tucker simply does not do it for me, I would prefer to simply remember those friends now no longer with us on my own and in my own way.
The last one I ever went to I had too, as the RAF put me on the parade.

I do wonder if some of these sad people are failed military applicants living out their little fantasy world.

[622]

It would be interesting to see how they worded the actual law...
How would a new law cope with people who dress up and go to vintage rallies / re enactments wearing uniforms...I guess that in itself is probably ok...but some do wear medals/ribbons etc....would that be an offence?

[PeregrineW]

The articles I have seen indicate that "intent to deceive" is the key phrase. There will be a specific exemption for actors and re-enactors.

[Sideshow Bob]

I'm surprised there is no official guidance - or at least no-one has posted a link to same on here

Go on then, I'll bite, Section 8 of Chapter 38 of the Queen's Regulations for the Royal Air Force: http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/5C146FE5_5056_A318_A8831351C830E2B4.pdf

In short, Flt Lt and above. Acting rank if held for an aggregate period of at least two years during his service, or continuously for one year immediately before leaving the Active List.

Also, the rules for those who served during the Second World War are a lot more relaxed and acting rank up to 1954 counts.

[teeteringhead]

I come late to this thread, having just returned from some time with a chum who retired to Chiantishire (rather than Teeteringshire). Life halfway up a Tuscan big hill (small mountain?) has many advantages, but Internet connectivity ain't one of them.

I've got few inputs, mostly on thread drifts........

RO/MSF Posts Some of these posts required uniform, for example those full time posts supporting Air Cadets (now mostly FTRS I think). Those guys held commissions in the RAFR, either J Class (same I think as Met Men like Langleyb) or subsequently "CC" (civilian component). They held commissions in the reserve, and had 1250s etc.

Service Numbers and Prefix/Suffix Letters The letters are always there if not used, as they were indeed "checksums". Those of us who joined as "gutter entry" (sorry - Direct Entry) were enlisted as airmen for administrative convenience, and had - in my time - 7 digit numbers, preceded by a letter until commissioned - cos that was the blighters' way. So Q4232123 as an "airman"/officer cadet became 4232123Q on commissioning. The "first 4" betrayed the origin, For DE aircrew, South Cerney had 4231/2xxx, which became 8024xxx when ITS became AOTS at Fenton. Other oddities - sorry ladies - was that WRAF officers had 4 figure numbers; those of my vintage began with 4.

Group Captain (and above) Numbers Always there in there background I suppose, but not used until the advent of computers and numbers on 1250s/MoD 90s. All now have and use numbers.

Air Force Lists Sadly the so-called online version was nothing of the sort; it seemed to be just a list of who was in which post. It was always the "other stuff" in the List that one found most interesting (and often useful). HQ Staff Lists, ADCs (and similar) to HM, names and locations of Attaches, Squadron Battle Honours and prize-winners at Cranditz and Staff College. Plus all the WOs and MACRs. And of course ALL commissions, including VR(T), RAuxAF and the oddities of J Class and CC which I mention above. Also obituaries :( and the Retired List which has also gone. Last published IIRC in 2007..... it seems it would have answered the OPs question easily too....

Walting I think it does need some legislation, but common sense or de minimis defence should separate re-enactors (or actors - Section Officer Harvey anyone :E) from sad gits or real Walts. There is Victorian legislation about wearing uniforms - the Uniform Act of 1894 - but mostly (at present) it requires "intent to deceive" to be illegal.

Notable British "Walts" include Alan Mcilwraith (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Mcilwraith) and Roger Day (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8454715.stm).

The ANZACs are particularly keen "Walt Hunters" too as the ANZMI Website (http://www.anzmi.net) clearly shows....

Sorry to go on so long, but I missed a week!!

[NutLoose]

Day's medals had been bought for him by his younger wife, who believed he was a much-decorated war hero whose medals had been lost in action or sold. She set about replacing them "out of kindness", buying from veterans and online dealers. Poor women, that burst her bubble

LOL

Mcilwraith
An Army spokesperson was quoted by the newspaper as saying, "I can confirm he is a fraud. He has never been an officer, soldier or Army cadet. May I suggest you try the space cadet organisation."

[Heathrow Harry]

Thanks SSBob - it looks like page 38-19 is the one:-

SECTION 8 -
RANK ON RETIREMENT, RESIGNATION, ETC..
Retention of Rank by Officers on leaving the Active List. Sponsor: RAF Employment Policy

(1) An officer of the regular air force placed on the retired list or on the reserve will be shown in his substantive rank. An officer of the rank of flight lieutenant or above leaving the reserve, or having no reserve liability, may be permitted to use his rank as a courtesy title subject to clauses (7) and (8) and to completion of 3 years service on the Active List.

(2) Subject to clauses (7) and (8), with effect from 1 January 1956, an officer of the regular air force, other than an officer serving on a national service commission, may be permitted to retain as a courtesy title in civil life a rank higher than his substantive rank on leaving the Active List, provided that he had held
such higher acting rank for an aggregate period of at least two years during his service, or continuously for one year immediately before leaving the Active List. For this purpose, service in a higher acting rank, may if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower acting rank.

(3) Officers who reverted to the rank of flight lieutenant on entering the former Supplementary List may be permitted to retain the substantive rank they held immediately before transfer or appointment to that List.

(4) As stated in clause (2), these regulations are effective from 1 January 1956, but officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945 and for whom the regulations in force before 1 January 1956, are more favorable, will continue to be treated under the old regulations (see clauses (5) and (6)).

(5) Second World War, 1939-1945. The regulations applicable to officers who served during the Second World War, 1939-1945, are as follows:
(a) Officers, on leaving the Active List, may be allowed to retain their substantive or war substantive rank, or, if more favourable, either:
(i) Their highest temporary or paid acting rank, provided that they have held such rank for an aggregate period of at least six months (for this purpose any periods of tenure of such rank will be reckoned cumulatively, and service in a higher temporary or paid acting rank may, if it is advantageous to do so, be counted as service in a lower rank, eg a flight lieutenant who held the temporary rank of squadron leader for four months and the paid acting rank of wing commander for discontinuous periods aggregating two months, may be allowed to retain the rank of squadron leader)
(ii) Any temporary or paid acting rank held immediately before the beginning of absence from duty on account of disabilities attributable to air force service as a result of which they cease to be employed and relinquish their commissions or are placed on the retired list, etc.

(b) Any period of temporary or paid acting rank held by an officer whilst seconded or attached to another arm of the Service may count as under (a).

(c) An officer who, on being taken into employment as an officer during the war relinquished rank previously held, may, on leaving the Active List, resume that rank or may be allowed to retain any higher rank for which he is qualified under this clause.

(d) To be eligible for the retention of rank, officers must have been in receipt of RAF, as distinct from civil, emoluments during their service on the active list.

(e) The provisions of this clause have retrospective effect to 3 September 1939, but service in a paid acting or temporary rank after 10 February 1954, will not count towards the qualifying period defined in (a)(i).

(6) In all cases permission to retain rank will be contingent upon an officer's service having been satisfactory throughout, and the Defence Council reserve the right to withhold or withdraw this privilege at their discretion at any time. Officers who resign their commissions will be dealt with in accordance with
para 3005.

(7) The counting of acting rank for retired pay purposes is governed by separate regulations (see para 2933) and the grant, under the provisions of clauses 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 of permission to retain higher acting rank on leaving the active list will not effect an officer's rate of retired pay, nor will it entitle him to recall in
the higher rank (see para 3003). It will permit him to use the courtesy title in civil life and to wear the uniform appropriate to the higher rank on occasions of ceremony, in accordance with AP 1358 -Dress Regulations for Officers.3003.

[langleybaston]

For Teeters:

I know of three types of commissions for Met Men.

One, as head of the Mobile Met Unit, said he was RAF Reserve, Wg Cdr, and wore uniform often. This included when he was doing his day job, which was primarily as a civilian.

The Mobile Met Unit were [are?] commissioned in the RAFVR I believe. The early volunteers were given a brief drinking test [port], shown how to salute, and were commissioned. From about 1990 they had to jump through a few hoops including a Vicars and Tarts course. I hope and believe that there are sufficient MMU to obviate any need for the "dormant" category, below.

Lowest of the low were those holding dormant commissions, to be activated by the Sec of State at TTW or thereabouts. These were mostly, if not all, in BFG, and the rank was civil service grade determined except for the boss man.

Thus Flt Lt at Guetersloh as an HSO, then it was Sqn Ldr as an SSO at JHQ as a senior forecaster, then as Gp Capt as a PSO in a "Chief" post at JHQ. A PSO normally attracted Wg Cdr only. All these Dormants had full kit held in stores for them, and their letters of appointment, rather terrifyingly for the proper RAF, gave them powers of command .......... and even a pistol. Regarding messing, I was treated as senior to the Wg Cdrs, junior to the Gp Capts and, inevitably, charged as a Gp Capt.

Fortunately for all of us, the Sec of S never signed the letters.

There is now only one Met Man in BFG [if at all] as adviser to G O C at Bielefeld. I expect he is MMU, sqn ldr.

[Heathrow Harry]

Just another thought - QR's apply to anyone in the Forces - but they have no force on someone who has never served... so W Mitty, Financial Consulatnt , can call himself whatever he wants I think unless & until he commits a fraud

The old Army Act 1955 had such an offence but no-one seems to be able to find it in the current (2006) Act. A quick search of same shows no mention of someone assuming a false rank at all................... even in the Service....... tho' I wouldn't advise trying it on.....

[Pontius Navigator]

The Oberon, that featured in one of the Early Dad's Army episodes.

My wife's grandfather had an interesting career, enlisted in the Army before ending his engagement the day after the Battle of Loos. A short time later he joined the Royal Naval Patrol Service and served until mid 1919. He rejoined the RNPS in 1939 for the duration. Characteristically he said little and what the family thought they knew was both wrong and less than the whole. Similarly my old man said little about his sinking and he was economical with the story too.

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember sometime in the 70s when young lads seeking to ward off the icy winds that blow across Norfolk from the North Sea took the sensible precaution of equipping themselves with ex RAF greatcoats which they bought from MOD surplus stores for very little - certainly under a tenner.

An officers' confidential order came out to the effect that officers were to desist from the practice of buttonholing these long-haired Herberts and demanding to know why they were masquerading as airmen. As the coats had been bought legitimately from surplus stores, and there was obviously no intention to deceive, then the wearers were to be left alone.

TTH - I agree about the "other bits" in the RAF list being more interesting. Also the Army List made good reading, if only for title spotting, particularly amongst the guards and the cavalry regiments. My favourite was one chap I met on a course when I was a Rockape, who rejoiced under the title of Second Lieutenant The Master of Rollo. "Call me Rollo, old chap" was how he introduced himself. These guys, who were nearly always on a short service commission before running the estate or going into the family merchant bank were usually great value, as they certainly didnt take the army too seriously.

[4mastacker]

.............. All these Dormants had full kit held in stores for them, ...........................

...comprising of Smock NBC, Trousers NBC, Hood NBC, Helmet steel, gloves cotton inner, gloves rubber outer, Respirator S6, boots and over shoes. Oh, and bring yer own underwear.

Definitely no Uniform No 1, Officer, gadding about town, for the use of - not at Gutersloh anyway. ;)

[langleybaston]

I didn't get to see my gear at Guetersloh 1967 to 1970, except I did have to keep a full set of combats with Met Office badge and name tape for deployment with HQ 1BR Corps, but I was certainly required to check once or twice each tour at JHQ, and there was a LOT to check, even natty brown gloves. Just as well it was held in store because it would have filled an OMQ wardrobe. No solar topee, as I recall.

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator (your #78),
... enlisted in the Army before ending his engagement the day after the Battle of Loos. A short time later he joined the Royal Naval Patrol Service and served until mid 1919... I'd always thought that, (as Kipling put it in "Boots"): "There's No Discharge In The War " (except, of course, on medical or age grounds - and that seems to be ruled out as he was allowed to re-enlist).

I'm not dogmatic about this - does anyone know the position in Army Law in 1915 ?

Danny.

[teeteringhead]

TTN

I always liked Part 3 (IIRC) of the Army List. Classified Restricted, it had a brief list of an individual's postings and, most usefully, what they preferred to be called.

So one might see: Major the Hon Eustace de Vere Fotherington-Thomas (Biffo).

I guess your erstwhile chum Rollo would be recorded as such too.

[langleybaston]

Danny, your query re. discharge.

Other than those enlisted after the war began "for the duration", as a generality, soldiers on any engagement [regular of varying periods, TF, or Special Reserve] had a Termination of Engagement date which was to be extended by one year in case of war. This was enforced: "held to serve". Even in peacetime a soldier serving in far away places with strange sounding names could be held to serve if suitable transport and shipping was not available. Hence "Doolallytap!", a form of insanity allegedly brought on by being held at Deolali waiting for a ship to Blighty.

For soldiers discharged after their extra year of war there was a Catch 22. The Military Service Acts of 1916 allowed for them to be conscripted.

The Army whispered in the ears of those about to be shanghaied, offered a month's leave, a bounty and a retention of rank and regiment if desired.

If you need more, feel free to ask ......... its my Mastermind second subject. I forget what the first one is.

[Danny42C]

langleybaston,

Thanks ! (isn't PPRuNe wonderful, there's always someone who knows the answer !)

Danny.

[ShyTorque]

Hence "Doolallytap!", a form of insanity allegedly brought on by being held at Deolali waiting for a ship to Blighty.


Every day's a school day! Thanks LangleyB, that's cleared up a question I've had in mind for a long time. We know two Sallys who live locally.

To differentiate between them, we call one "Pally Sally" and the other one "Doolally Sally". We don't use their surnames because they're both divorced but "otherwise occupied". I always wondered about the origins of the name of the latter species.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, in his case, he had joined the Territorial Force in 1911 for 4 years and on request agreed to go to France. This was for a period of one year. He then declined to extend his Service. However if, as LB says, there was the possibility of conscription, this may have influenced his transfer to the Navy.

Distressing even further, on my daughter's husband's maternal side, one relative was discharged, services no longer required, in Nov 14 and played no further part in hostilities.

Another was discharged to HMP Wandsworth although one did serve in the RN but was killed in 1918.

[Slow Biker]

My school science teacher, Mr Davis, would often, without any apparent reason, fly into a rage and just as quickly return to science. Of course we kids saw it as a laugh to wind him up. I mentioned to my mother a joke we had played and she was really, really cross. It turned out that my father knew Mr Davis and she explained to me that he had fought through Germany and was present at the liberation of Belsen and witnessed the terrible scenes there. No wonder, she said, that he sometimes looses himself. My mother then said something that has stayed with me: never, ever mock anyone who behaves in a strange manner, you don't know what they have been through. I think of this when I see those elderly men that gather on a cold November day to march and honour those that didn't come home. That's why I hold in such contempt those who falsely present themselves as military heroes; Walter Mitty seems too mild a term for them.

[tommee_hawk]

My school science teacher, Mr Davis, would often, without any apparent reason, fly into a rage and just as quickly return to science. Of course we kids saw it as a laugh to wind him up. I mentioned to my mother a joke we had played and she was really, really cross. It turned out that my father knew Mr Davis and she explained to me that he had fought through Germany and was present at the liberation of Belsen and witnessed the terrible scenes there. No wonder, she said, that he sometimes looses himself. My mother then said something that has stayed with me: never, ever mock anyone who behaves in a strange manner, you don't know what they have been through. I think of this when I see those elderly men that gather on a cold November day to march and honour those that didn't come home. That's why I hold in such contempt those who falsely present themselves as military heroes; Walter Mitty seems too mild a term for them.


Very well put, sir!

[Pontius Navigator]

On a cold, wet, wind swept hill in France, overlooking the last resting place of their ships, a number of old sailors stood in their grey flannels, blazers and black and green berets whilst a French bugler sounded the Last Post.

This was an intensely personal remembrance ceremony.

It was humbling to observe.

[Wander00]

PN - where was that, which ships?

[Tinribs]

I may be able to shed some light on the final letter quoted by some.

There were many errors in transcribing service numbers with accompanying turmoil in the paperwork. At some time in the sixties a letter was added after the row of numbers. This letter was the result of a check sum of the preceding numbers. I cannot remember the exact process at this distance but it went something like; add all the preceding numbers together and count through the alphabet using the sum as a stopping point. If the final letter did not agree with the location of the checksum then the service number was corrupt and should be checked again.

Further to the discussion about walts, I too have some concerns about a resident near me who claims an army rank of Warrant Officer. His behaviour does not fit the rank he claims and nor does his writing style which is basically v ignorant of punctuation spelling and logic

Without a service number how does one discretely check? I would hate to wrongly accuse him of spurious claims, after all he may be right but there are many brave men who should not be sullied by imposters. Is it a criminal offence to impersonate a warrant officer?

[Pontius Navigator]

Charybdis and Limbourne, 23 Oct 1943, HMS Charybdis and HMS Limbourne - Guernsey Royal Court (http://www.guernseyroyalcourt.gg/article/1940/HMS-Charybdis-and-HMS-Limbourne)
and HMS CHARYBDIS (http://www.raf38group.org/charybdis), this later shows the position. The memorial is on the headland.
The action report is here: HMS Charybdis, AA Cruiser, Loss and Commemoration (http://www.naval-history.net/WW2Ships-CharybdisAsr.htm)

[Wander00]

PN - thanks


Tinribs - that's how I understand it too, except it does not work for me - 608488 should be "H", but my check digit was "F". maybe they coded it by starting other than at A

[Tankertrashnav]

P_N - I was once talking to an elderly lady in my shop. She was telling me that her father had been one of the crew of Charybdis who was lost in the action described in your link. A man who was browsing in the shop came over and after excusing himself for interrupting informed us he was a navy diver, and earlier that year had been one of a team of divers who had gone down to the remains of the ship and attached a white ensign to the wreck, a ceremony which apparently takes place annually, presumably on the anniversary of its loss. The lady was very moved, and the chap promised to get in touch with her and send her a photo of the wreck with its newly attached ensign.

Amazing coincidence, and a very happy one.

[ricardian]

I joined the RAF as a Boy Entrant in 1959, demobbed in 1973. In the mid 1960s a letter was added to my RAF service number. Here is the algorithm that was used to calculate the letter:

Multiply the first digit by 8
second by 17
third by 4
forth by 16
fifth by 2
sixth by 13
seventh by 5

Add these up to produce answer A

Divide A by 23

Chop all the decimal places then multiply by 23. The result is answer B.

Subtract B from A to produce answer C which is a letter of the alphabet where Zero = A, 1 = B, 2 = C etc. But omit "O" and "I" to avoid confusion with "0" and "1".

[FantomZorbin]

Ricardian
Thank you for that ... it's saved me a trip to our attic, a frightening prospect!!

[charliegolf]

In 1973 I was allocated R8108493, the two guys alphabetically by surname, before me were P8108491 & Q8108492 and so on through the rest of the squad.


I'm a Q81 too! 19MP79.

CG

[Mogwi]

It was always my understanding that when you leave the Army or RAF, you resign your commission and therefore you are not entitled to use your rank any longer.

As the Senior Service, when a RN officer leaves the service, he retains his commission and therefore retains his rank. He doesn't even have to use (Retd) as he always holds his commission.

Correct?

Quite right MS. I also retained my flying boots with the pee-flaps!

[NutLoose]

In 1973 I was allocated R8108493, the two guys alphabetically by surname, before me were P8108491 & Q8108492 and so on through the rest of the squad.

Ours in 76 were simply done by bed spaces, ie one guy would be S8125001 the next would be T8125002, my old mate from school in the next room has the next number up from me.

[Wander00]

Ricardian - thank God for computers


Jenkins - I kept same number in the RAF for two regular and one VR(T) commission. Different number as a TA officer in the Really Large Corps

[airborne_artist]

Numbers were allocated by surname order within specialisation as we entered Dartmouth, so my SL aircrew mates are all within 15 of me. The format was CNNNNNX where N is a digit and X is a checksum letter.

The Army gave me a soldier's number when I went green. I've no idea if there's a checksum - 244NNNNN dates me ;)

[pzu]

Jan '66, got off a train in Winchester to join the Army, as I settled in the back of the bus recognised a face from college - transpired that unbeknown to each other we had opted for the same unit
We had been pre allocated service numbers at the recruiting office mine was
240**006 his was 240**008, we never met 007!!! :=

PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)

[ian16th]

I started demob leave in Feb 1965, so it seems that I was one of the last not to have the dreaded alpha character added to my service number.
Unless that is, one was added during my leave, and no one told me :cool:

But I went immediately into the computer business and soon knew what Check Characters were.

[Hempy]

You went into the computer business in 1965? Please tell me you bought shares in IBM!

[Wander00]

J - no problem

[matkat]

Also 1976 (June) S8127661

[Union Jack]

The format was CNNNNNX where N is a digit and X is a checksum letter. - AA

In which case, I suspect that one of your Ns is missing......:D

Jacl

[Shack37]

My number was W1941305 (Total 23)


Using Tinribs system, Post 91, it is correct. (A=1 etc) so (W=23)


Using Ricardian´s algorithm and discarding O and I the number calculated is 17 which corresponds to T




Help!!!

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

1 X 8 = 8
9 X 17 = 153
5 X 4 = 20
0 X 16 = 0
3 X 2 = 6
8 X 13 = 104
5 x 5 = 25
Total = 316(A) / 23 = 13(.73913) x 23 = 299(B)
(A)316 – (B)299 = 16 = Letter S

My letter is W! Where have I gone wrong?

Aaron.

[ian16th]

You went into the computer business in 1965? Please tell me you bought shares in IBM! Unfortunately not. In those pre-Thatcher days of exchange controls, one had to pay a premium for 'investment dollars'. The buyer was taking a bigger risk on the exchange fluctuations that the underlying investment.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, last weekend in September to get a slightly better weather, doesn't always work. Organised by the Guernsey Association RN and RM, used to include RM band until MOD withdrew its support after the 70th, a C d'Honour at Government House, RNLI to a ceremonial wreath laying, a church service and a March to the cemetery with Salvation Army, St John's Ambulance, Police etc. The RN still tries to send a Guardship even though MOD does not support it.

[Underbolt]

ricardian's algorithm certainly wasn't the one used in the 1990s. With that algorithm, the letter will advance by 5 every time the number goes up by one, and by 14 every time the tens digit ticks over (e.g. xxxxx59 to xxxxx60). But in numbers from my era, the letter advances by 1 per number, or 4 when the tens digit ticks over.


2....58J
2....59K
2....60P
2....61Q


etc.

[pkam]

1 X 8 = 8
9 X 17 = 153
5 X 4 = 20
0 X 16 = 0
3 X 2 = 6
8 X 13 = 104
5 x 5 = 25
Total = 316(A) / 23 = 13(.73913) x 23 = 299(B)
(A)316 – (B)299 = 16 = Letter S

My letter is W! Where have I gone wrong?

Aaron.
Aaron O D,
Hereford 1964 ? Mine was1950351with an A added a couple of months later. Using your calculation mine still comes out as A.
Regards
Pete Ross, Supp. Gen

[Auster Fan]

Here's an interesting one - ex RAF senior officer who is now an RAFVR(T) fg off. What rank should he hold, and when. :)
A former Commandant Air Cadets returned to 5AEF as Adj after his flying career ended. While on duty he was referred to as Flt Lt Ford. At ceremonial/formal occasions he was addressed as Air Commodore Ford, which he still is as Hon Wing President of Norfolk and Suffolk Wing ATC. I believe at one time ACM Sir Patrick Hine became Fg Off Hine RAFVR(T) while he was an AEF pilot....

[Megaton]

Saluted Paddy Hine coming out of the Mess at Coltishall by mistake. He was wearing Fg Off rank tabs and I was a Flt Lt at the time.

[Union Jack]

Saluted Paddy Hine coming out of the Mess at Coltishall by mistake.

Don't leave us in suspense, Megaton - what was his mistake?:D

Jack

PS I bet he was wearing or carrying his Air Officer's hat:ok:

[Stuff]

A slight change to the algorithm fixes it. Multiply the last digit by 1 (not 5), discard "I" and "O" in the alphabet and start at zero when counting through.

This works for all examples in the thread.

Service Number
1941305

1x8=8
9x17=153
4x4=16
1x16=16
3x2=6
0x13=0
5x1=5

A= 204
B= 184
A-B= 20

ABCDEFGHJKLMNPQRSTUVWXYZ (Starting with A=0)

Checkdigit W

[Underbolt]

Yes, works for mine and others. Although in maths terms, the last few sentences can simply be replaced with "A modulo 23". ;)

[Sloppy Link]

KISS
The Army just add 1 to the previous number.

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

1 X 8 = 8
9 X 17 = 153
5 X 4 = 20
0 X 16 = 0
3 X 2 = 6
8 X 13 = 104
5 x 5 = 25
Total = 316(A) / 23 = 13(.73913) x 23 = 299(B)
(A)316 – (B)299 = 16 = Letter S

My letter is W! Where have I gone wrong?

Aaron.

For starters 316 - 299 isn't 16 :ok:

[Rossian]

.....is all very well but has there been an outcome from the original poster? Was the chap a wrong 'un or not? I feel we should be told.

The Ancient Mariner

[Underbolt]

Sorry, too interested in all the codebreaking. :) I've just realised that as well as I and O, Z is also omitted (hence the use of modulo 23), so A follows Y, unless Y was suffixing a number ending in 9, in which case the next letter is D.

[Sandy Parts]

he's probably passed away by now.... ;)

[Wander00]

And I thought writing about non-publics on Sunday afternoon (on another thread) might be seen as "anal", although I am sure I am now better educated, but not sure I am any wiser (to paraphrase a comment made in court many years ago by a famous barrister and, no, no I cannot recall who it was)

[Union Jack]

..to paraphrase a comment made in court many years ago and, no, no I cannot recall who it was - Wander00

It was the famous F E Smith, later Lord Birkenhead, and there are two known variations, namely:

“Judge: I've listened to you for an hour and I'm none wiser.
Smith: None the wiser, perhaps, my lord but certainly better informed.”

“Judge: I have read your case, Mr Smith, and I am no wiser now than I was when I started.
Smith: Possibly not, My Lord, but far better informed.”


I trust that you now feel "certainly better informed" - or at least "better informed"....:ok:

Jack

[Wander00]

UJ, thanks, the name came to me later, and I did say paraphrased...........

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

OK. Well done. I wondered who would be the first to spot that.
But it still does not compute.

Aaron.

[Underbolt]

We had a correction in post #120. If you multiply the 5 that your number ends with 1 rather than 5, your total is 296. 296 modulo 23 is 20. The 21st letter starting from A and skipping I and O is W. :)

[Herod]

My God, my brain hurts! I'm glad I was there when it was only numbers. I left in '76, but when I joined the VR(T) in '84 to fly the Chippie, my number was still the same.

[Maxibon]

For what it's worth, and I suspect it's not very much, the letter on the calculation came out as a Q when in fact I was an R. Is there a ServiceNumber4U claim lawyers I can contact? I feel diddled.

[langleybaston]

If we think RAF numbering is difficult, the army changed their sysytem for a "new" one seven times between 1810 [demi-official] and now.

1829, 1856, 1873, 1881, 1920, 1942, 2007 [JPA]

The changes were sufficient and sufficiently often to allow, with ease, several soldiers in the same regiment to have identical numbers. Rather defeated the purpose of a number, I thought.

[Rosevidney1]

I accuse langleybaston of using reason, common sense and logic while commenting on the lunacy of the services numbering system!

[langleybaston]

Guilty as charged.

Send him down!

[Tankertrashnav]

Back to the subject of the thread, at the advanced age of 69 I have become a grandfather for the first time, and my son and his partner have named their son Walter. Pleased to report that when we saw him on our first visit yesterday, the day after his birth, he wasn't (as yet) wearing any unauthorised medals or ribbons on his babygrow ;)

[MPN11]

If we think RAF numbering is difficult, the army changed their sysytem for a "new" one seven times between 1810 [demi-official] and now.

1829, 1856, 1873, 1881, 1920, 1942, 2007 [JPA]

The changes were sufficient and sufficiently often to allow, with ease, several soldiers in the same regiment to have identical numbers. Rather defeated the purpose of a number, I thought.No problem .. the Army's so small they all know each other nowadays. It won't be long before the RAF goes to 4-digit numbers, and the RN use a couple of letters.

MPN11
433nnnnB = GD(Ground) ;)

[Shack37]

Back to the subject of the thread, at the advanced age of 69 I have become a grandfather for the first time, and my son and his partner have named their son Walter. Pleased to report that when we saw him on our first visit yesterday, the day after his birth, he wasn't (as yet) wearing any unauthorised medals or ribbons on his babygrow http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gif



Congratulations TTN to you and the "youngsters" May Walter grow and enjoy less interesting times.:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Shack. Mrs TTN is chuffed too, but is already getting fed up with me calling her "granny"!

[ian16th]

Calling her granny isn't the bad bit.

For you every night is 'grab a granny night' from now on.

Congrats.

[Wander00]

TTN - many congratulations to you all. The best bit is you can hand them back to parents and exit stage left

[Heathrow Harry]

Not these days - half our friends have been strong-armed into Grannying small children - starts as an hour or so a day and before you know it it's full-time, unpaid child care.........................

[langleybaston]

Cunning rule for grandparents:

never but never move "to be nearer the children" because:

1. you will be suckered with grandchild-minding then, just as you become doddery,

2. the children move away from you, leaving you stuck somewhere you did not choose.

Seen it happen time after time.

Our four are 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours and 4 hours away respectively. And the nearest is a bit close for comfort.

[Heathrow Harry]

Yeah - if they want to see us there's a perfectly good long distance railway system or even Ryanair available

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks for the good wishes and advice chaps.

When it seemed as though we weren't ever going to become grandparents we consoled ourselves with the thought that we were saving a fortune and not having to do all the stuff you mention.

All changed now - ah well!

[goudie]

Congratulations to you and Mrs TTN. From experience, we're great grandparents, Nanny is the preferred title among the womenfolk.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, are you signed up for primary and primary star servicing and CCS skills?

[Tankertrashnav]

They are a bit out of date P-N- undoubtedly I'll need a refresher. Mrs TTN is a retired midwife so a bit more current than me. Nan/nanny was pretty standard when I lived up North goudie. In Scotland I seem to remember a granny was something you put on the chimney pot to catch the wind and improve the draught!

[Union Jack]

In Scotland I seem to remember a granny was something you put on the chimney pot to catch the wind and improve the draught! - TTN

Absolutely correct, but here's an Englishman with a draught up his kilt, "walting" as a Scotsman - in order to avoid thread creep you understand:hmm:

https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=avg&hsimp=yhs-fh_lsonsw&type=ch.53.w7.nt.04-03.gb.zen._.0816tb2&param1=rVLLitswFP2VbqydjR6W5Cy0SMYpFIZSplNm6KbocZ2k1I_Kjqf5-145CQ2zKKUMGOte-dzHOcf-EEymnVwpIWit80ppmpdM1_lmW69yrUspOBditZaZDsS3AxbQiqnJcRIMK5VA CIIopSSM5uv2I_lhu52BjrQIlVIpqQMwja104Ba4CEwFC6UIitMcrASqFDSN BBm8Y0CFAgYlrRyTrCqdXnnhgaTBL9ORDNE0kcymLETBC1aRu2OM0E2f7A6-PNyb_TQNmbAZb_BpTyPY6PeFnXeF71u8GhA34nn9MA6_MtEsxDIRLtQyrn5i doKMO2-77oTnuO_nlJ8g4nsXL9d9g4McznPuiH3VaHF86CYMkxAYQ4dxu7R_Mzmwo18 6ZlzqzT_Zh8Aay2YsumqHaRgxR9dSiBGnTOVU5pwiIcawSKylXg4hEDNEBDU x8ewSfj-cKX-zPtFmaa_JL3u5BF92RNsSKmlBPkOcIX6ozeOG5_fr5_zp_ZZy8gANoI3x6uD 4Nwsn69CyG6HjPF2G3w78T4He3qkbjV-pf_uH_JH2agRSpbhWk8yQeMFQFDRD2MWK45mdevXrksNgdFWwUha85AWSI_1 ong5d6F_Gd5o4c7ePfQvEzUaKghIP5jEegXwfz8Fv0&param2=new_tab_search&param3=ch.53.w7.nt.04-03.gb.zen._.0816tb2&p=ye+canny+shove+yer+granny+off+a+bus :ok:

Jack

[olympus]

My favourite was one chap I met on a course when I was a Rockape, who rejoiced under the title of Second Lieutenant The Master of Rollo. "Call me Rollo, old chap" was how he introduced himself.

That would be the last one of this lot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Rollo)

(Mentioned only because I also came across a similarly-named individual whilst at RCB. The PS rather annoyingly kept referring to him as 'the tall Etonian'. We felt this put the rest of us at a disadvantage!).

[Tinribs]

still seeking a way of sniffing out a potential walt without wrongly accusing him.

Someone must know a way

[Heathrow Harry]

I guess the question is "does it matter"? If there is no financial or other legal issue then just park him under "suspicous" in your mind and see what time brings...............

[NickB]

Congratulations TTN - from a fellow member of 1157 D/F when Ian (Iain?) was also a member - not seen him in probably 30 years though! Please pass on my good wishes :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks Nick - check your PMs

[NutLoose]

Congratulations TTN :)

[Hydromet]

Congratulations, TTN. What is your preferred form of address by Walter? I suggested "Sir", but finished up as Pop.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well Walter's father calls me dad and his mother ma, so I guess we will be granddad and grandma, but who knows?

Thanks again for congratulations. I'm getting guilty about starting this thread drift, but I guess its no worse than the arcane discussion on RAF personal numbers!

[Basil]

Congrats, TTN.
It is said that the reason grandparents and grandchildren get on well is because they have a common enemy ;)

[Sloppy Link]

If I'd know how much fun grandchildren were, I would have had them first!

[MPN11]

I have 2 grand-brats, who are both absolutely lovely. Despite the distance between Jersey and N Yorkshire, and infrequent contact, their affection still amazes me!

But it is complicated ... there were 7 (yes, seven) potential 'grandparents' at my son's wedding, due to a bit of recycling by the older generation, and the Reception Dinner seating plan was inevitably a bit of a challenge for the young ones!

I am thus "Grandpa Jersey", and my beloved of 36 years is just <insert name here>. How the kids manage two sets of Yorkshire grandparents, and my former wife, I have no idea!

[Wander00]

France to Copenhagen is a challenge too. When that son (from first marriage) and D I L were married 10 years ago, there were 8 parents/step parents. The real parents were on the top (round) table. each separated by one from their "ex", the second timers were banished to another table. When the photos came out there was gap like a missing tooth - bride's mother had in the meantime sacked her then boyfriend and had him photoshopped/airbrushed out of the pictures!

[NutLoose]

Someone told me he makes more money from retouching wedding photo's than he does from actually taking them, because over the years he gets requests to remove xyz from the shots as they fall out of favour.

He said it used to be difficult to do well in Photoshop and was labour intensive until he hit on a brilliant idea, he now takes a shot of the background before moving the punters into the frame, thus he simply needs to cut a section from his background shot and paste it over the rogue guests as required and he still gets paid handsomely for doing it.

:)

[threeputt]

MPN11

4335791J

3P

[Avtur]

Enough of this nonsense, is the guy a fraud or not?

[Danny42C]

Avtur,

In the case I had (this Thread: Page 3, #45), certainly ! He was not challenged, but must of got wind of the enquiries and has not been heard of since.

The amazing thing is the complete naivety of Press and TV reporters in taking at face value any old cock-and-bull story that comes into the office, without the simplest commonsense checks.

[Union Jack]

I suggested to my colleague to contact RAF Disclosures at RAF Cranwell who were not interested and suggest that my colleague called the police. - Been There...

Now that Danny has brought us nicely back on track after some very enjoyable numerical and grand-parental diversions, I must say that I remain somewhat surprised that RAF Disclosures were less than helpful, particularly in view of the mention that "it is a rather delicate position the said person is applying for". If the situation remains unsatisfactorily resolved, I would certainly consider returning to the charge at an elevated level. When I was in the Naval Secretary's Office, we were always glad to run a check - in the rare event that someone possibly wished to masquerade as an NO!

On a facetious level, you could always say how nice it would be to see a photograph of the individual concerned in his Wing Commander's uniform and see firstly his reaction, and then evaluate any more evidence that emerged, such as wings or medal ribbons. If all else fails, ask him if he ever flew "solo" with Tracey Curtis-Taylor.....:D

Jack

[Avtur]

Thank you Danny and UJ for getting us back on track (hopefully...).

[Sloppy Link]

I suggested to my colleague to contact RAF Disclosures at RAF Cranwell who were not interested and suggest that my colleague called the police. - Been There...

Now that Danny has brought us nicely back on track after some very enjoyable numerical and grand-parental diversions, I must say that I remain somewhat surprised that RAF Disclosures were less than helpful, particularly in view of the mention that "it is a rather delicate position the said person is applying for". If the situation remains unsatisfactorily resolved, I would certainly consider returning to the charge at an elevated level. When I was in the Naval Secretary's Office, we were always glad to run a check - in the rare event that someone possibly wished to masquerade as an NO!

On a facetious level, you could always say how nice it would be to see a photograph of the individual concerned in his Wing Commander's uniform and see firstly his reaction, and then evaluate any more evidence that emerged, such as wings or medal ribbons. If all else fails, ask him if he ever flew "solo" with Tracey Curtis-Taylor.....:D

Jack

Taking us back off track, good use of the word facetious, the only word in common use with all the vowels in the correct order!

[Underbolt]

I'm tempted to name another one, but people might think I was doing so facetiously... ;)

[212man]

I'm tempted to name another one

Me too, but I try to be abstemious in my posts.....

[Sloppy Link]

Thank 212, I knew someone would remind me....

[Il Duce]

Just found out who it was that I referred to in my earlier post: Paul Hughes - a speaker available for inspirational talks in schools etc. Impressive resume on the website to add to the list I reported earlier. Anyone recognise him and his achievements?
School Speakers | Inspiring & Motivational Speakers for Schools (http://www.schoolspeakers.co.uk)

[Sideshow Bob]

Il Duce,

Yes I know him and used to work with him. His resume it truthful.

[Sideshow Bob]

Airpolice

This bit

This chap claimed to have been RAF then SAS, was an eye witness in New York on 11 Sep, was at S. Hussein's execution and with the SEALs in Abbottabad for the demise of OBL. Now runs his own multi-million pound company. How on earth the school allowed him through the door in the first place beggars belief.

I take is Il Duce's idea of a micky take, pretty disrespectful especially if you actually knew what the guy had done for his country. The CV on the school site is accurate.

[Il Duce]

No hint of a micky take. If the resume is genuine, why tell the schoolkids you were at Saddam's execution and with the SEALs when they disposed of Osama BL. I'm only saying those claims are unlikely for a RAF aircrewman. Why not just stick with the genuine stuff on the CV?

[Pontius Navigator]

ID, if my nav studes are anything to go by Saddam is deep history. My studies were 23 and had no knowledge of the 6-day war or Yom Kippur when they were 6 years old.