More closures (Sept 16)

[Aggamemnon]

More closures announced at Defence Estate Rationalisation:Written statement - HCWS133 - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2016-09-06/HCWS133), Colerne airfield for the chop. No news on 3AEF as yet.

[Pegasus107]

Could say the same about RAF Henlow and 616VGS. Centralised AEF in the same way they are trying with VGS. :E

Expect more if you read the document - "The remainder of the target will be met through other rationalisation activity including the Reserves estate, the Training estate and MOD accommodation." Potential of even more over the next few months or so.

[Sandy Parts]

I just hope they get the full market value for the sites. Too many get flogged off for bugger all and the developer walks away with millions made in 1 minute by selling them on.

[andrewn]

Scandalous - we should not be forced into a position whereby we are selling off the family silver in order to free up land so that developers can make a fortune!

[Sideshow Bob]

Not just Colerne and Henlow but a number of other well known historic sites: Chalgrove (believe this sale/move of Martin Baker was mentioned on the Meteor thread), Amport House and Prince William of Gloucester Barracks (RAF Spitalgate).

[Melchett01]

I see Amport House has been chopped too. Shame. We'll get rid of all the nice country locations across Defence leaving just the run down stations and barracks and then pay a fortune for senior staff to go to a nice country location for an 'away day' or some conference or such. Should have kept Bentley Priory on for that reason alone; close to London and easily accessible from Fleet, Army HQ or Air, renovate it and invest in it and turn it into a MOD 'corporate' facility. If Amport is going as well, how many of these nicer, historical/country sites do we have left?

[tucumseh]

Henlow has a hangar which is listed, so that'll have to stay. A Barnes Wallis design.

[Innominate]

The group of four hangars at Henlow https://www.historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1391623 date from 1918 and are attributed to the War Office - at that stage Wallis was designing airships.

616 VGS is one of those that were/are due for disbandment, having operated the Vigilant...

[Hueymeister]

Where will CAM go?

[Could be the last?]

Huey,

Last I heard was that RAF CAM was relocating to RAF Cranwell (2018). New build including, potentially, a centrifuge. I can't remember whether it will be near the recruitment building, or across where the Jags used to be.

I have also heard (rumour) that the system is looking at rationalising the SH/AH bases again. When you consider the cost of land and a £1B target, the sale of Benson/Odiham/Wattisham/Middle Wallop and consolidating in Boscombe and Yeovilton (SH and AH) respectively would be easily achieved!

How's it going across there?

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

CBTL, Given the proximity of Chalgrove to the extended centre line of RAF Benson's only runway, and the fact Chalgrove has already been handed to the Homes and Communities Agency, I'd say the writing is on the wall for Benson longer term.
Shame, will be another lovely base gone!

[Cows getting bigger]

Last I heard was that RAF CAM was relocating to RAF Cranwell (2018). New build including, potentially, a centrifuge. I can't remember whether it will be near the recruitment building, or across where the Jags used to be.

That's interesting. I've been on the periphery of an alternate solution, using aircraft!

[brokenlink]

Wish those that made these decisions would make some Impact Assessments first. Only a small point but the local Air Cadet Wing hold weekend training courses at Henlow to ensure the volunteers and senior cadets have the tools to do the job. A number of these are mandatory and require an overnight stay. Having been thrown out of Brampton when that closed I wonder where they can go now?

[Heathrow Harry]

"Wish those that made these decisions would make some Impact Assessments first"

They probably did but inconveniencing the Cadets and others probably had the weight of a pin against the money they hope to get

[Pegasus107]

They did make impact assessments; in the same way someone did in consolidating the ACO Gliding Fleet into regional hubs.

[Melchett01]

Huey,

Last I heard was that RAF CAM was relocating to RAF Cranwell (2018). New build including, potentially, a centrifuge. I can't remember whether it will be near the recruitment building, or across where the Jags used to be.

I have also heard (rumour) that the system is looking at rationalising the SH/AH bases again. When you consider the cost of land and a £1B target, the sale of Benson/Odiham/Wattisham/Middle Wallop and consolidating in Boscombe and Yeovilton (SH and AH) respectively would be easily achieved!

How's it going across there?

Nothing like putting all your eggs in one basket to keep the CI & Sy lot up all night worrying. So once we've been rationalised, just how easy would it be to stop the RAF from being effective? A rhetorical question, but a concerning one.

[just another jocky]

Last I heard was that RAF CAM was relocating to RAF Cranwell (2018). New build including, potentially, a centrifuge. I can't remember whether it will be near the recruitment building, or across where the Jags used to be.

The old Jag hangar has been refurbished and is occupied by 57(R) Sqn EFT and it's probably a little small. Of course EFT will be a different beast by then but it's a nice place to operate from.

[Ken Scott]

When I consider how many of the stations that existed when I joined more than 30 years ago have gone I do wonder how much smaller the RAF can get & still be a viable force? Royal Air Flight or Royal Air Club?

[threeputt]

That's the one with the TSR2 in it (the listed hangar at Henlow that is).

3P

[wub]

3P: The TSR-2 was housed in a building known as The Pickle Factory which is long gone. Urban myth is that the building was built with the doors facing away from the airfield, instead of facing, hence the man in charge of construction was 'in a pickle' The aircraft itself has been at Cosford for many years.

The control tower at Henlow was made from Hurricane packing cases.

[Wander00]

There is my old TA depot there as well, the former RAF Spitalgate

[Could be the last?]

Melchette,

Regarding the 'Eggs', the AT fleet is all in one place, as will be the majority of the ISTAR platforms (if they ever finish the the runway).

[mopardave]

Not just Colerne and Henlow but a number of other well known historic sites: Chalgrove (believe this sale/move of Martin Baker was mentioned on the Meteor thread), Amport House and Prince William of Gloucester Barracks (RAF Spitalgate).


PW of G barracks...........aaaargh, I did my basic there! RCT, not RAF. Don't know why it saddens me.....it just does! It wasn't such a bad place. Ah well.:{

[mopardave]

There is my old TA depot there as well, the former RAF Spitalgate


mine too Wander00......mine too! Happy memories there actually. Memories of watching the "guests" of the tory governments "short sharp shock" justice system..........made me feel a whole lot better about things! At least I was getting paid to be bawled at!


Apologies for thread drift.


MD

[aw ditor]

Night "circuit and bumps" at Spitalgate in 195.. in Piston Provosts. OK until they turned out the street lights in Grantham at midnight. Perhaps that was Maggie Thatchers father saving on the "Rates" as they were then.

[Melchett01]

Melchette,

Regarding the 'Eggs', the AT fleet is all in one place, as will be the majority of the ISTAR platforms (if they ever finish the the runway).

CBTL - I think all capabilities will be in the same boat by the time HMG has implemented it's cunning plan. Not to mention the issue of FAM and the potential for getting rid of SLA/SFA; it might be cheaper to put people out in the community but it also puts individuals outside of the FP bubble on station and therefore at risk - as we have seen all to clearly of late.

But I'm sure all these issues have been recognised, considered and appropriate measures put in place. Right?????

[Could be the last?]

Melchette,

I am with you, it is bonkers. However, I did have a selection of Movers and Snr Logs Os try and explain that operating all AT assets from one base with one rwy was perfectly acceptable - I can't recall whether that was the day before or after the Herc landed wheels up.......................😎

[BEagle]

With all the 'eggs' of the AT/AAR force at one station now, there's even more pressure on the local housing market.

The headline in today's local rag stated "Rental prices are 'spiralling out of control', housing in crisis as cost of town's apartments soar"

Despite poor road links and no rail links to Oxford or London, Witney property prices have risen twice as fast as those in Oxford for the first 6 months of the year.

Doubtless the 'buy to let' jackals and speculators are rubbing their greedy hands with glee, but in the none too distant future, how on earth will any young servicemen be able to afford to move to the area? Even Cartoontown is becoming very expensive - a 2 bedroom flat in Base Hangar View is around £800+ per calendar month to rent, or about £190K to buy (without a garage...) :eek:

[tmmorris]

Aynayda not sure of the logic of that. Chalgrove village is already on the centreline so no real change, and it's a long way out so approaching aircraft aren't that low. In fact it removes a problem in that Chalgrove traffic, if it actually had any, would conflict with the Benson IAPs.

If we lose Benson it will be disastrous for my cadets. Brize are always too busy for a visit and Benson is a perfect station to see the RAF at work. (Halton are accommodating (literally) but hardly a typical station.)

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Approaching aircraft are low enough over Chalgrove to generate noise complaints as it is, building a whole bunch of houses there is unlikely to improve matters. Chalgrove traffic is suitably deconflicted from Benson by mutual agreement, so there is no problem there, but the loss of useful training estate may be.
I seriously hope I am proved wrong, but I think Benson is too much of a valuable asset not to sell off. It is in a lovely location with good links to Oxford, Reading and Henley and with improvement of the roads through Watlington to the M40, could make commuting from it a doddle. From a financial and societal perspective, why would you keep noisy helicopters there rather than on significantly cheaper land closer to their main customers around Salisbury Plain?

[SirToppamHat]

As the release suggests, there are more bases to go yet and from what I see in this release, this tranche looks to be the small fry. Some big bases to go yet I suspect. From what I hear, the actually money to be made from selling-off a lot of these places is less of an issue (the military doesn't get the money anyway and the FQs were sold by Portillo many years ago) than the savings brought by shutting them down.

[Ken Scott]

Perhaps it's time to consider the dual mil/ civil airfield concept which is quite prevalent overseas with costs shared between both sides? As a start how about re opening the mil side at Newquay Airport? I'm sure Cornwall CC would appreciate the assistance with running costs, it's a good training base for the C130s & A400s who can't operate at their home base without upsetting the locals & it could even be the base for the new MPA - a bit further from the northern approaches granted but some of the seed corn crews might actually want to stay if they weren't going to Lossiemouth?

[Sandy Parts]

Ken - given the majority of the seedcorners (all?) until recently were at ISK, can't see coming back to Moray being an issue (apart from the ribbing they will get for any 'yankee' accents they might have picked up :) )

[andrewn]

STH - this is nothing to do with either savings or profit from land sale, but is due to MoD being instructed to release a set amount of land to meet central Govt housing targets!

But you are correct in saying this is just the tip of the iceberg....

[Ken Scott]

Sandy - as I heard it the majority (all?) had declined to return to Morayshire & were seeking employment in sunnier climes.

[tmmorris]

Other countries do seem to manage the dual mil/civ airfield quite happily. In some parts of the world virtually every significant airfield seems to have a reserve squadron in a corner.

[Lima Juliet]

From the MoD website:

More than 1,200 hectares of surplus public sector land is being released across sites which stretch right across the UK. The sites are expected to provide land for up to 17,000 new homes, contributing to the government’s target of building 160,000 new homes by 2020 and all of the money generated from land sales will be invested back into meeting the needs of the Armed Forces.

The land will include two golf courses at RAF Henlow and Southwick Park after Defence Secretary Michael Fallon questioned the need for them during a speech on defence reform, where he confirmed the estate optimisation strategy would aim to reduce the size of the defence estate by 30% over 25 years. Today’s announcement – which is the third tranche of sites to be released - means the MOD has now freed up enough brownfield and surplus public sector land for up to 39,000 new homes, expected to generate around £930 million.

The MoD's target is £1Bn still they just need another £70M to meet the 2020 target set. So I don't expect any big culls after this announcement until after 2020 as they have already said that the final piece would be Reserves, Trg estate and MoD Accomodation. Here is a clip from Hansard:

These sites also contribute to the Government commitment to provide land for 160,000 homes in this Parliament. The intent to dispose of these 13 sites will provide land for up to 17,017 homes (of which some 12,565 are expected to materialise in this Parliament). In addition to the sites announced in January and March of this year, this represents the expected provision of land for up to 14,700 homes this Parliament against the MOD target of 55,000. The remainder of the target will be met through other rationalisation activity including the Reserves estate, the Training estate and MOD accommodation.

Linton is still 'in the mix' with Topcliffe likely to go if it does. So if anything, that will be it, if at all. Plus Linton has been talked about for some time...

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/11572224._/?

LJ

[Wander00]

Does that mean Henlow airfield will remain?

[Lima Juliet]

Wander00

Now that the VGS has gone there is no public task at Henlow's airfield. The Henlow Flying Club is a commercial company and on a DIO licence. The Henlow Aero Club is the RAF club and is an approved sport only - so unlikely to be allowed to remain.

So in short, unless someone buys the airfield it will be put to other uses by the highest bidder I suspect.

LJ

[Wander00]

That will be another good one gone, as they say

[airborne_artist]

improvement of the roads through Watlington to the M40, could make commuting from it a doddle

A by-pass for Watlington! Comes around every seven years. The land that could take it is all owned by one family as far as I know ...

[drustsonoferp]

That's interesting. I've been on the periphery of an alternate solution, using aircraft!

That is most interesting, as I was peripheral to measurements made of an in service aircraft recently, apparently to ensure an appropriately scaled and detailed centrifuge could be manufactured.

[sharpend]

I drove back from Cranwell some 17 years ago + with a fellow officer, post CRM course and to while away the journey we played a version of Eye Spy. Well actually, 'can you name the number of operational RAF airfield closed since we joined'. We gave up at 50!

[jamesman]

I worked with a branch officer about 20 years ago who told me that his first posting was PWoG Barracks when it was RAF Spitalgate the infamous home of WRAF basic trg. He was a Supplier and one of 5 males on the camp amongst approx 500 women.

Whilst it may not be pc anymore he told me stories of never doing any washing, ironing and when it came to the Thursday night NAAFI bop, he and his other lucky 4 would literally 'choose; for the night!

Been there in the last few years and it being run (down) by the RLC it is not a great state.

[Wander00]

I had not long been in RLC(V) and we moved from a hutted camp at Kempston, near Bedford to Grantham. The Commandant of the time was not (I discovered later) known for his sense of humour. At the welcome drinks he asked me if I had been to the place before. "Yes, sir, over the wire on a Saturday night when I was a cadet down the road" was not well received.

[pr00ne]

New DIO procurement plan just released.

Additional closures: Halton, Chivenor and a raft of Army barracks.

Wonder just what they will do with that lovely old OM building at Halton?

And as for heaven in Devon...

[Ken Scott]

Do you have a link? Many of the army barracks might well be ex-RAF airfields.

And to think that amongst all the fine stations that have been closed Brize Norton is still open......

[pr00ne]

Ken Scott,

Here you go.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/557222/20160929-DIO_Procurement_Plan_FINAL.pdf

Don't think that the Army barracks are ex RAF, Didcot, Woolwich, Hounslow etc.

[airborne_artist]

To go:

Review of London Assets
•
Chilwell Station, Nottingham
•
RAF Halton and Henlow
•
Invicta Barracks, Maidstone
•
Parsons / Venning Barracks, Telford
•
RMB Chivenor
•
Vauxhall Barracks, Didcot
•
Azimghur Barracks, Colerne
•
Prince William of Gloucester barracks, Grantham

[Ken Scott]

Took a bit of digging before I found the list on P32, along with the quote:

There is currently a lot work being undertaken to assess the current viability of the existing military estate in order to reduce it by 30%. Currently there are no vacant sites, so future land disposals will be attached to a reprovision requirement.

Which I read as 'there's nothing not being used but we're going to get rid of a third of the estate anyway'.

[VX275]

Re Halton House OM. Have they come to some arrangement with the Rothschilds?
I always understood that under the terms of the gifting of Halton by the Rothschilds, the house and estate had to be returned to the family in the same state that they were originally, and when looked at a few years ago the cost of returning the house alone was several 10s of £millions.

[Wander00]

Will that include Halton House then?

[Innominate]

I may be reading the document wrongly, but it seems to be a procurement plan for contractors to look at redeploying resources: "these projects are known as Estate Optimisation projects and will be advertised in the OJEU [Official Journal of the
European Union]." As Halton and Henlow are on the same line in the list, might it be a question of how to accommodate the remaining units/personnel from Henlow at Halton? That would get perhaps avoid the Rothschild agreement/Crichel Down Rules.

Page 43 shows that a contract for "Site Appraisals for RAF Halton and RAF Henlow" has been awarded, with a value of £5,000, for completion by the end of May 2017 - that appraisal will presumably inform the next stage.

[Arclite01]

Ken Scott

That sounds crazy - the estate is fully used but we will reduce it by another 30% anyway and there will be a reprovision requirement....................

I read that as close 30% and then rebuild it somewhere else...............

is that correct ??

Arc

[NutLoose]

With all the 'eggs' of the AT/AAR force at one station now

What's the old saying......... One bomb and its gone,

[Ken Scott]

Arclite01:

I read that as close 30% and then rebuild it somewhere else...............

In other words, close one third of the estate & squeeze all the units into the other 2 thirds.

With respect to airfields there are already very few places one can fly to to conduct training. Fortunately the natives around the secret Oxfordshire airbase are very amenable to aircraft flying circuits, especially late at night for NVG training, so I'm told.

[NutLoose]

In other words, close one third of the estate & squeeze all the units into the other 2 thirds.

Only if they refurbish the one third first, new accomodation, new pool, resurface the roads etc, only then can they close it.

[Wander00]

VX - I think we pressed "post" at the same time

[Easy Street]

With Halton being such a sprawling camp, I can easily imagine Halton House and its immediate grounds being retained as a RAF enclave to make satisfying the terms of any agreement with the Rothschild family a lot easier and cheaper. It would make a good replacement for Amport House, perhaps?

[Lima Juliet]

Re Halton House OM. Have they come to some arrangement with the Rothschilds?
I always understood that under the terms of the gifting of Halton by the Rothschilds, the house and estate had to be returned to the family in the same state that they were originally, and when looked at a few years ago the cost of returning the house alone was several 10s of £millions.

That's an utter myth. On Alfred de Rothschild’s death in January 1918, his nephew Lionel inherited Halton House and it’s lands. The Air Board were keen to purchase the estate as an officer cadet college for the nacent Royal Air Force which had been formed on 1 April from an amalgamation of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service. Fortunately, Lionel was a willing seller, as the house was the distasteful equivalent of 'Beckingham Palace' in the 1900s and the estate including Halton House was purchased by the War Office in 1919 for £112,000 FREEHOLD. The was about a quarter of the probate value of the estate; clearly a bargain for the War Office (now MOD).

As for Halton, some bright spark wants to move recruit training to Cranwell - more eggs in one basket! However, they will need to build a new parade ground, accomodation, classrooms, SLA, SFA, Messes, schools, etc... There will be a HUGE cost to this and also the local Authorities in Bucks and Lincs will need to be consulted for such a big move. I would still expect to see Halton by 2025 as if it does go ahead (subject to finding massive sums of money we don't have) then all this will have to be built and there will need to be an overlap in recruit training. Also, there are some 20-odd lodger units at Halton to find homes for. So realistically we are at least 5 years away and probably closer to 10 from the site being cleared. Then there are the other plans at Cranwell to sort out - running legacy flying training and MFTS at the same time, building the new RAFCAM, resurfacing the runway and sorting out the very tired infrastructure on the camp (which was looking very run down last time I looked). Quite where the DIO are going to get this cash is quite beyond me - they can't even maintain what they have now!!!

My guess is that parts of Halton will be sold and some will stay as it becomes an overflow for HQ Air (which is hugely overcrowded). Oh, and the recruit training area is Grade II listed as is the OM - so their use is limited unlike the old hospital site that was bulldozed and the land sold off to build houses ~10 years ago.

LJ

[VX275]

It was a myth I was told by the OM staff whilst looking through the door into the OM bar store and wondering (over a beer or three) just how much it would cost to repair the gold leafed plasterwork in the store.

[flybeboy]

The duo page has been taken down as their was errors in it do they been rmb storehouse not rmb Chivenor I wonder

[pr00ne]

Er...................What?

[flybeboy]

Just spoken to my contacts in local press paper tv . They heard about this yesterday and been looking into this and were told this morning by dio that some info has been put up in error.and will be corrected. But could not confirm or denied anything about any base closers or sell offs. What's going on. Sounds like a mess up wait and see

[The B Word]

Yup, the document contained elements of total folly from DIO - what else would you expect? :ugh:

The sooner we bin this ubersized and under achieving abomination the better. Bring back OC SSSs, give the Head of Establishment (for the RAF Stn Cdr) the budget and let them run a local plan according to strategic guidance. Plus whilst we're at it allow the Stn to employ local contractors rather than an over-charging behemoth like Carillion-Amey which makes a mockery of competition rules that any other MoD contract normally has to be run against.

The whole thing is a frikkin' joke and seeing as it is "scribbly heavy" is it really any surprise...? :}

The B Word (in the grumpy corner)

[Wander00]

Well make your mind up "Bring back OC SSS" and "scribbly heavy" seem comments at odds with each other

[The B Word]

Wander00

Who says OC SSS has to be a scribbly - would an Eng (CIS or AV) or Stacker be better suited to such a role? In the Army normally QMs looked after the estate and a bloody good job they did as well!

The B Word

[Wander00]

Scribblies seem to have made, in my time any way, quite effective OCs SSS, for which they get (or got) the training, but would be happy in principle for anyone else to look after bogs and drains.........


Have to declare an interest as first OC SSS at the then MPA

[The Nip]

A small spanner regarding Halton. The Old Workshops have been condemned with immediate effect. All users have until end of week to retrieve what they can.
Is there enough money to bring them back into use? Or will this hasten the closure?

[Hueymeister]

Does that include clothing stores?

[Krystal n chips]

" The Old Workshops have been condemned with immediate effect. All users have until end of week to retrieve what they can.
Is there enough money to bring them back into use? Or will this hasten the closure"

They should have been condemned years ago....."how to demoralise new recruits without really trying " would be a fitting epitaph.

I will happily donate 10 litres of petrol to hasten a worthy cause . :E

[Pontius Navigator]

What about Cranwell North Airfield? Lots of empty green space and then a remote patch of housing ideal for a sell off. There are unoccupied minor mansions as there are insufficient VSO either available or willing to pay the rent for these inefficient and unmodified houses.

If everything north of the messes was sold they could build a new patch nearer the site an free hectares of land for Sleafotd north.

[Onceapilot]

I always found the Old Workshops at Halton to be a great place!:ok: Generally open plan, bright, airy and spacious. For a young engineer, it was great to wander around and look at the work of different sections, most of which had demo displays showing the work that they did.:D Now, that is not to say that they were perfect but, I enjoyed my time there and, I hope they can be retained in use!

OAP

[Pegasus107]

And even more to go Defence review see 56 sites close - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-37902141)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/565858/20161107_MOD_Better_Defence_Estate_FINAL.pdf

Let's wait and see where this time.

[cliver029]

Reports in the local paper (er sorry Cambridge News) that Henlow will migrate to Bassingbourn (currently under care and maint) by 2019

[MPN11]

The Army abandoned Bassingbourn? Good grief! Was the area too posh for them? ;)

[Wander00]

Had my first flight at Bassinbourn as a 13 year old CCF cadet - 9 years later was there as a student on 231 OCU

[Pegasus107]

A fair number of units going into Bassingbourn, going to be busy in the future.

[Bigbux]

@Leon
That's an utter myth

Wow, it's a pretty well-entertained myth then. The local MP is demanding to know how the MoD will meet its obligations to the Rothschilds. Sounds like any future developer would be free to demolish the place and lay a car park over it.

In the bright new world of OJEU'd MFTS, other than the obvious reasons of wanting your future military pilots to have some experience of actually being in the military, what would prevent initial MFT being carried out at Civvy airfields - such as Cranfield?

[The Nip]

Halton will close earlier than some on here predicted only a few weeks ago. For those without rose tinted glasses it couldn't survive because of Halton House.
The airfield is used by the RAF but the majority of users are civilians.
Although there are quite a few lodger units, these a generally small. The exception being the DMOC, or whatever it is called this week.

The estate itself will be worth a fortune. Prime real estate. Social housing on an industrial scale��

I am not sure how Cranwell will adapt but it will have to. I mentioned it before but initial training, 2-4 weeks, could be all ranks then diversifying. Studies are being done. It will change.

As I was told only the other day, the RAF is not for the old, it is for the future.

[Innominate]

Re-telling a myth - even to an MP - doesn't make it less of a myth. It appears that there are files in the National Archives relating tot he purchase of the Halton Park estate; without seeing the details we can't tell whether there were conditions imposed by the Rothschilds.

If, as LJ says, the House and other buildings are Grade II Listed, it would be difficult to demolish them. Far easier (and cheaper) to convert Halton House into a luxury hotel, which - arguably - it is*

* for given values of "luxury"

[Mandator]

I hear that Halton's Old Workshops (built circa 1918) were evacuated last month because of fears of imminent collapse of the roof. Better buy some shares in Caterpillar.

[Lima Juliet]

Grade II* listed is Halton House and grounds:
https://ubp.buckscc.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MBC12143

Grade II listed is Henderson and Groves:
https://ubp.buckscc.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MBC25662
https://ubp.buckscc.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MBC24941
https://ubp.buckscc.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid=MBC24942

Plus an Ancient Monument in the form of a Neothlithic Long and Round Barrow:
https://ubp.buckscc.gov.uk/SingleResult.aspx?uid='MBC6515'

So not a lot of building going on there then!

As for the sale of the house, it was included in the sale of the whole estate on Alfred's death. The RAF/MOD have sold lots of it off since including the whole of Halton village that belonged to them, the old hospital site and various packets of farm land - none of which went back to the Rothschilds. The myth of the house is where people get mixed up with Bentley Priory - now that did have a restrictive covenant on it.

What I find so incredibly sad is that we will never have these assets ever again. I disagree with the Nip - the RAF is not for the old, it is for the future...

I offer back at that - The name of 'reform' simply covers what is latently a process of the theft of the national heritage...

Further, if the future was more important than heritage then we would abandon Cranwell all together and build on a brownsite a completely new 21st Century facility. So that argument about looking to the future is flawed.

LJ

[The Nip]

LJ,

It doesn't matter whether I agree with what I was told or not. As an example do you really think that most of the airmen/women care anything about Halton house? Look at the surveys and read the threads on this forum and others.

They want better homes, more money and a better career path.

The thread running about leaving the RAF sums things up; people don't care when you leave and quite a few remember their time but don't get involved.

I, like many others, have seen change, some good some not so good. I am now in my early 50's and since I was born I have been part of the RAF. I am saddened to see places that I lived in such a poor state. Bad management is a large part of the problem.

Cranwell is a right mess with problems in some messes at he moment. Heating and hot water have been lost numerous times over the last 2 years. What the 'candidates' must think I don't know. Those in power decided just to repair the problem, rather than the cause. Problem occurs again and again. Now it is more expensive to fix properly than it would have been 2 years ago.

I don't know where all the families accommodation will come from for those moving up from Halton. Just hope it is not another Lyn/Bzn.

[Bigbux]

Halton House Trump Hotel. You heard it here first.

[Lima Juliet]

The Nip

Flogging off an old country house for a couple of million quid or so isn't going to sort the other issues that you mention - they need hundreds of millions to sort that out. Also, there will be a lot of sad faces, both airmen and officers, seeing Halton and Henlow go to save Cranwell. What you say about Cranwell is true, I have stayed there a few nights recently and its in a right state - but no different to much of the MOD's poorly maintained estate (both new build and old). So given the mantra about forgetting the old and buying towards the future then why save the dump that many call "Cranditz"? I'm pretty sure that if you asked serving/ex members of the RAF where the home of the RAF is then only a select few will say Cranwell. In fact, many more combined will have come through Halton as airmen or Henlow as officers in the past 35 years.

Whilst we are on the subject of the future or new, I recently stayed in a Mess that is 20 years old and a SLAM block that is 13 years old. Both were already showing their age - mouldy ceilings in both, worn out carpets, paint peeling, door furniture hanging off, holes in doors/walls, unbearably hot with poor ventilation and absolutely no soul.

I heard that Animal House has gone in AKR recently as well. When we lose places like that, we rip out our collective soul. I was one of the last to go through OASC at Biggin. I was so very proud to start my RAF career there, on such hallowed turf for the RAF as this famous BoB station, much more than I would have if I'd have gone to Cranwell to do my OASC. :yuk:

As we approach 100 years of existence to throw away our heritage with such gay abandon saddens me. If nothing else, Lord Trenchard's very first RAF barrack blocks should be remodelled into an HQ for the parts of HQ Air that no longer fit at High Wycombe. The Messes and Quarters used to provide accomodation in support of High Wycombe and the cessation of the ludicrous excess rent allowance (or whatever name they call it these days) bill due to the lack of accomodation up the road. Finally, the House would make a fine facility for CAS and the SLT to meet rather than the nasty carbuncle they call a Mess at High Wycombe. Even then a good 40% of the land could be sold off for the Government's housing plans on the Old Workshops/SHQ site and the sports pitches. But we need to remember the cost of building at Cranwell is a factor of at least 10 higher than the possible receipts from the sale of Henlow and Halton (~£500M vs ~£50M), remembering that former RAF Bicester sold for just £3.2M just 3 years ago at the same time the new building at Lyneham cost £121M.

In my humble opinion of course :ok:

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

Halton House Trump Hotel. You heard it here first

Brilliant, I like it! :ok: