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D SQDRN 97th IOTC
4th Sep 2016, 19:34
Do parties or candidates need to appeal to a broad church to get elected?
Or are parties like the AFD, Le Front National on the rise?
Are mainstream parties trying to appeal more to minorities to win appeal at the expense of the centre ?
And a common vote grabbing theme is anti immigration, anti capitalism, anti establishment.
We saw the "Arab Spring" sweep across N.Africa a few years ago which has not been the "success" that some hoped for in all countries.

EU politicians need to wake up and smell the coffee. Seismic change is coming. It needs to be embraced, planned for and managed, including immigration and accepting that immigration can be positive for a country if properly managed.

Isolation in these days and days to come as a strategy will backfire.

ATNotts
4th Sep 2016, 19:40
Looking at the analysis of the swing to AfD in Mecklenburg Vorpomern, pretty similar to the UKIP phenomenon in UK.

At one end of the political spectrum, Die Linke losing vote predominantly from the lower classes who feel threatened by migrants; and at the other the CDU losing votes from the "old guard" (Daily Mail / Daily Express voter) at the other who want their cosy existence from the 1960s maintained.

Thankfully, the result in M-V will be an SPD / CDU coalition that will keep the AfD at bay for a few more years.

Rosevidney1
4th Sep 2016, 20:01
AfD is still a very young party. Don't try to write an epitaph for it just yet.

Hussar 54
4th Sep 2016, 21:20
C'mon Basil....

Stop sitting on the fence and tell us what you really think of immigrants....

Having said that ( just a joke ) I know millions of ordinary people who feel exactly as you do....You're not alone !

However, we're not really allowed to always say aloud what we sometimes think, and to me, that's one of the biggest problems that we now face - smouldering discontent, which the oh-so-PC politicos continue to ignore at their peril....

Those who think that UKIP in the UK or Trump and his Republicans in the USA are racist haven't seen anything yet....Wait until Madame LePen and her lot get started in our own Presidentials !

Fairdealfrank
4th Sep 2016, 22:46
Looking at the analysis of the swing to AfD in Mecklenburg Vorpomern, pretty similar to the UKIP phenomenon in UK.Yes, but that's where the comprison ends these days. The AFD was founded by a couple of respectable academics and started of as a UKIP-style party with the main aim of having Germany leave the eurozone then leave the EU. It got hijacked and is now a BNP-style xenophobic outfit.

Meanwhile in France, Marine La Pen is doing the opposite: trying to change the FN from a BNP-style xenophobic party into something more like UKIP (at least in perception) in order to widen its appeal in an increasing euro-sceptic France.

Those who think that UKIP in the UK or Trump and his Republicans in the USA are racist haven't seen anything yet....Wait until Madame LePen and her lot get started in our own Presidentials ! Correct, UKIP is not a racist party, it is anti-EU, there is a world of difference. Openly racist parties are on the march in Europe, spurred on by out of touch mainstream parties that are wedded to the EU and the eurozone, and not addressing the concerns and problems of ordinary people.

G0ULI
4th Sep 2016, 23:07
Those who ignore the lessons of history are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.

A century or so ago, uncontrolled mass immigration of refugees from areas controlled by Russia rolled over Europe. That led to the general introduction of passports for ordinary citizens and the institution of formal controls on the movement of people by national governments across the World.

Europe has effectively opened its borders once more to unlimited immigration. The politicians have forgotten the lessons of the past in a misguided belief that they are somehow obliged to behave charitably towards all potential citizens.

The World is a tough place. Not everyone is born equal. Not everyone is going to get or be offered opportunities to improve their lot in life. Lines have to be drawn or the whole of society is going to be dragged down to the lowest level. There are simply not enough resources in the World to permit everyone to enjoy a Western level of lifestyle.

The compassion that allowed those first migrants to cross the Mediterranean to settle in Europe has directly led to the deaths of tens of thousands of (frequently economic) refugees who have tried to follow. Ultimately history may well judge our current politicians to have been guilty of killing far more people through kindness, than if they had returned the first refugees back at the borders or let them perish at sea. That is the harsh reality of the world we live in.

The uncontrolled movement of the people from one or more countries into another country may be considered a migration. When those migrants start demanding special rights, priviledges and declare an intent to undermine the institutions, culture and heritage of their new host country, that is an act of war. Just in case anyone is in any doubt, there have been a rash of shootings and bombings across Europe. We are at war, despite the liberal press and the politicians dressing these incidents up as the actions of an isolated minority. Such incidents are likely to become increasingly common as outrages are committed by both sides in order to gain political ascendancy. Given that we are in this situation, sectarian politics are just the tip of the iceberg compared to what may eventually happen.

ATNotts
5th Sep 2016, 07:22
Yes, but that's where the comparison ends these days. The AFD was founded by a couple of respectable academics and started of as a UKIP-style party with the main aim of having Germany leave the eurozone then leave the EU. It got hijacked and is now a BNP-style xenophobic outfit.

Yes, the AfD is becoming quite worrying, especially as you can see from the Mecklenburg-Vorpommen results, the NPD (which was a growing right wing force) has lost votes, presumably to the AfD and it's new leader isn't exactly a shrinking violet. In Baden Wurtemburg the AfD fraction there has broken from the rump AfD because it's too right wing. Interestingly the AfD got most of it's support in M-V in just three, eastern constituencies; the CDU did better in the eastern side of the state, but overall the state is overwhelmingly SPD.

Correct, UKIP is not a racist party

Agreed, the party isn't; but many of it's voters are.

Hussar 54
5th Sep 2016, 08:18
Not a joke - really did happen....

In 1973, I moved to the UK for a couple of years ( woman / love, that sort of thing ) and moved into a house with a couple of other aspiring CPL's in the Manchester area...

One of these other guys came home one afternoon after a hospital visit with a Hearing Aid ( in those days the size of a shoe box ) after being sent by his GP to see a specialist about persistent ' ear popping ' which was messing up his flying training....

Reason ? The specialist was Indian or Pakistani and with a heavy accent which the guy didn't understand and his answer to every question was ' Huh...What....Say again, please....'

Peter-RB
5th Sep 2016, 09:59
If the Germans dont alter the way they are doing things now, I am sorry to write this, but history I fear will repeat itself, with a very strong up-swelling of aggrieved members of the German public... voting for something that many of my past relative's fought two x 5 year wars against.....how will that square then,.. with the EU and its unelected Commissioners!

MG23
5th Sep 2016, 20:48
In a multicultural society, all politics will eventually become sectarian politics, because you can't have ideological politics in a society of multiple, incompatible cultures.

What we're seeing today is tame compared to where we're heading if something drastic doesn't change. The EU will be lucky if it doesn't end up as Yugoslavia on a continental scale.

D SQDRN 97th IOTC
5th Sep 2016, 22:42
Basil

I think my experience of immigration is very different from yours.
I think a large proportion of those that come into this country contribute. And not just to crime statistics. My dentist is Swedish- lovely she is. The surgeon who operated on my shoulder was Malaysian. He was in big need of my dentist. My dentist has an unemployed twin sister (can you imagine) who is looking for work. My partner is half German. A huge number is this country have some overseas genetics.
Immigrants who hate us and want to impose their religion on us. Agree these should be controlled.
Immigrants that go around knifing people. Sounds like the indigenous population of SE London to me.
Immigrants who are professional beggars....probably been taught by home grown talent.

I agree this country can do without anyone who is a violent criminal. Immigrant or otherwise.
But before you chuck them all out.....you checked how many NHS staff are immigrant ? Or teachers.....police....armed forces?

The point is control. To know who we are letting in. The day of open borders is coming to an end.....

MG23
5th Sep 2016, 23:01
As an immigrant, I'm more supportive of immigration than many, but I've never quite understood the moral case for the NHS poaching lots of foreign doctors and nurses from poorer countries who aren't as well placed to train more to replace them.

Fairdealfrank
5th Sep 2016, 23:51
Quote:
Correct, UKIP is not a racist party
Agreed, the party isn't; but many of it's voters are.

That could be said of all parties, indeed Labour recently had an investigation into anti-semetism (closely related to racism) and that was of its members not its voters.

DroneDog
6th Sep 2016, 09:31
No one was more welcoming of the influx of immigrants than the Germans, from large cities to small towns the citizens made tremendous efforts to welcome their new guests. Sadly the gesture was not reciprocated, forgetting the terror attacks ordinary crime has shot through the roof, I work in that region at times and know personally a few victims fo crime from the new arrivals. The Germans don't seem to understand why their new guest have turned on them.

When bored in the evenings I attend language classes either in Germany or France, these classes are now fully booked and there I met quite a few immigrants. Some will make a positive contribution to their new home but others (the vast majority) have no such intent.
One Monday at class a bunch of guys from Afghan came into class laughing and joking, I asked "hi Guys had you a good weekend" the reply " yes we went out stealing and lifted a good haul" Another Afghan explained to me "if the Germans do not give...we take" he found it quite funny. Also, the work ethic is none existent.
Germany has given these guys, security, clothing accommodation healthcare and a new chance but it's taken for granted.
The problem being as far as I can see is that's "it's cultural" this is normal behaviour in their homeland, they see nothing wrong in theft or 'whatever' Now I must stress in my limited control group of approx 160 odd students geography plays a huge part. Those genuinely from Syria or Iran are solid people who will work hard and make a positive go of it. One young Syrian chap told me he was a solicitor and now works lifting beer crates in a warehouse until his German improves, The others from different countries have a different take. These others have made it quite clear they have no intention of working or integrating. Another Afghan told me he was furious with the dole office(Arbeitspaltz or something its called), they tried to get him a job sweeping the streets but he refused, he has no other skills but considered this type of work to be beneath him.
So what do we do, it is a noble thing to help your fellow man but what to do when your help is thrown back at you.

Germany as far as I can see is running out of money, there has been protests about the closure of primary schools in small villages as boroughs need to save money. Yet there is no shortage of money to assist immigrants who have no intention of integrating.

Afd is growing in strength and popularity as the ordinary citizens have had enough, it's not racist nor discriminatory its represents Germans who are fed up with an imported crime wave and an enforced agenda imposed from those who don't suffer the consequences.

The entire process has been a shambles if the process had been controlled with strict enforcement of the law and immediate deportation of those who broke the law things would be a lot better.

Rosevidney1
6th Sep 2016, 22:10
I agree, Drone Dog but how can we deport so many? They have full access to legal aid to avoid deportation - provided at great expense by our own government! The numbers involved are so vast I fear the problem has become insoluble.

fireflybob
6th Sep 2016, 22:56
Correct, UKIP is not a racist party
Agreed, the party isn't; but many of it's voters are.

Define many - 1%, 5%, 10%, 50%? - please supply a reference.

Stanwell
7th Sep 2016, 03:53
"MANY"
A word much loved by those who would try to pull the wool over people's eyes.
When someone tries using that on me, I immediately look them in the eye and ask .. "Oh yes, how many?"
Try it and see what kind of an answer you get.

KenV
7th Sep 2016, 17:53
I agree, Drone Dog but how can we deport so many? They have full access to legal aid to avoid deportation - provided at great expense by our own government! The numbers involved are so vast I fear the problem has become insoluble. Insoluble? Only under the current rules/protocols. Change the rules even slightly and the problems would likely be quickly soluble. That's the attraction of some of these political parties. They dare to propose (politically incorrect) changes to the rules.