View Full Version : Manners or lack of

4th Sep 2016, 18:56
Why are people so rude on PPrune?

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Sep 2016, 19:49
3. Actually they're not always. You can see the same people who are unpleasantly rude to each other on JB having perfectly civilised conversations on, say, flight safety in other areas of PPRuNe. (Yes I know this may be disputed by some in The Other Place, but it is possible to go OTT with criticisms of PPRuNe.)

Sue VÍtements
4th Sep 2016, 19:57
You raise a very good question. It's something that destroys a lot of otherwise good threads and I for one try (though probably don't always succeed) to maintain a reasonably polite tone ... well I try.

I think it's a couple of things: The anonymity of the web means it's easy to say something that we wouldn't say face to face and also that sometime we might try to be humourous or flippant and it comes off as merely patronising like "Perhaps you never learned to read, but let me help you. What the original poster said was blah blah etc"

There's also the echo chamber effect where, when speaking about something they feel strongly about especially if there are many of their peers available, people can be quite nasty. Like I said, that simply destroys the thread.

Having said that, it's never rude to point out when people use bad grammar like apostrophes missing or used in the wrong place :=

4th Sep 2016, 19:59
I always prepare myself for an incoming assault and proof read something on PPRUNE a few times as you just know there are some people waiting to pounce.

My theory is that most pilots that you tend to fly with in a commercial op are nice outgoing friendly people as they are the ones that got through that part of the interview process and are like minded professionals all out to do a job and have a good time. It sounds far fetched I know but roll with it..

PPRUNE however has no such filtering applied to it and coupled with the ability to hide ones identity (which we all know can bring out the worst in people) you have at first glance the same 'group' of pilots that you are used to working alongside but underneath it is quite a different bunch.

Two's in
4th Sep 2016, 20:02
It's the same as e-mail bravado - when you don't have to face the person or consequences directly, people become opinionated, thoughtless and downright rude ("politicians" is the collective noun). The acronym ITG stands for "Internet Tough Guy" and again, the sheer anonymity and lack of accountability encourages those not burdened by huge intellects or the concept of unintended consequences to be ITGs.

Closely linked to this inherent rudeness from stupid people or intellectual pygmies is the incorrect overuse of the phrase "political correctness". It used to mean a course of action designed to meet the goals or structure of a political ideology. Now it just means somebody called me stupid or boorish or both. It is not political correctness when somebody points out you are rude or a bigot, it is simply stating a fact.

"Manners maketh man" is as valid today as it was in 1400.

4th Sep 2016, 20:14
I think it's more fundamental - the Anglo Saxons seem to have thrown away tolerance in favour of rudeness & not just on the internet either...where I live now in Europe people are so much politer and the English stick out - because of their obvious rudeness.

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Sep 2016, 20:17
Didn't take long did it? - although perhaps you were expecting a descent into rudeness even before post #6?

4th Sep 2016, 20:21
Depends on where you post. Here on JB I don't mind stirring the pot. It's just entertainment.

But I occasionally post on the Medical or the Cancer threads. No rudeness there.

5th Sep 2016, 01:10
I may be imagining this but are the mods getting more lenient in their handling of threads?

I don't wish to criticise them - it's a voluntary task which they carry out in their own time, for which we should be grateful. Sometimes, though, it seems that some of the more childish to and fro arguments which have descended into personal abuse are allowed to continue too long when I would have thought that a swift deletion of the offending (and offensive) posts and a subsequent "time out" for the offenders would be very appropriate.

Having said that, it's never rude to point out when people use bad grammar like apostrophes missing or used in the wrong place

Quite right! Hanging's too good for them! ;)

5th Sep 2016, 02:28
As others have already pointed out, the majority of any untoward conversational manners seems to reside here in the blast zone. I have witnessed some fairly pointed responses in tech log or R&N, but often these come from members calling out bogus opinions and erroneous statements of fact.

It would seem, large crowds, automobiles, and anonymous internet forums can bring out the worst in people of whom, at least for some, in person are likely decent humans and act accordingly.

5th Sep 2016, 13:52
Is it perhaps the result of seeing manners generally degenerate throughout society?

Effluent Man
5th Sep 2016, 14:05
I have never really found anyone to be rude to the extent that it requires commenting on. The only time it has got near to it is over politics. KnC draws a bit of flak but I am guessing that he can handle it.

I think if everybody was excessively polite "No, after you, my good man" it might all get a bit sterile.

5th Sep 2016, 14:51
I for one do not post under a false name or title, anyone who is good enough could actually find me with the little bits of detail however sparse on my so called "Internet Handle"..as a true "Lancastrian" I have to agree that I am Blunt, sometimes I can be Rude, but like most of the Yorkshire men( or the ones I know) we Northern Counties people dont waste words when making direct comments.
After being banned from one thread on JB I am learning how to word cutting Rudeness.. so as not to upset the MODS, I started life as a Farmer(leaving School early to do so) there is the the clue to my lack of ability in Queens English and apostrophes, however following a near death RTA accident I went into Industry and for 30 years ran my own warehousing and transport.. were you need to be direct and blunt to get your requirements understood by those who work for you and or provide services to your effort,;)
Peter R-B, Lancashire

5th Sep 2016, 14:53
After many years here, I've come to realise that there are a few very obnoxious posters who will almost always be rude, it's how they get their entertainment. It's not just this forum, either, I've been a member of other fora where there have always been a few very rude and obnoxious posters.

Personally I just ignore them. After a while you get to know who's going to post something intended to annoy and most of the time I just don't bother to read anything they post.

I must say I'd not want to moderate this forum. I've been a mod on another forum and frankly I'd not have tolerated some of the rudeness and deliberate goading of others that goes on here from time to time.

The flip side is that the majority of threads are interesting and entertaining, and that balances out the posts from the people whose only purpose in posting is to cause offence.

5th Sep 2016, 16:48
Meanness is pervasive. Last month, the August 18th issue of TIME Magazine ran the following cover story:

"Why we're losing the Internet to the culture of hate" by Joel Stein.

5th Sep 2016, 18:07
...but then there are some people who seem to be looking for reasons to take offence - or maybe are just simple souls, who mistake bluntness for rudeness.
So, writing a simple explanation is interpreted by them as patronising,
telling it how it really is, is interpreted as offensive,
comments on society are interpreted as 'rightwing'... or, if you prefer it 'leftwing'.

I've watched a couple of bods on the Computing forum be hounded away... or maybe have got fed up with the hardness of the brick wall against which they have been knocking their heads... but whose experience and skill and intelligence shone through their every post. But a number of people who couldn't distinguish the medium from the message have meant that these guys can be heard no more.

And we are poorer without their insights.
(And, yes, I also miss XP, sometimes!)

5th Sep 2016, 18:37
My experience has been that often people who are knowledgeable about, or who work in IT and computing, are both less aware of causing offence in what they write and more likely to be offended by some unintended slight in something written by another.

As a non-computer person, I've always found computer forums a bit of a minefield, as asking a simple question can often attract an offensive or supercilious response (I'm not directing that at the computer section here, it's just been my experience when asking advice on other places).

Similarly, I often seem to have the knack of unintentionally causing offence to people who work in IT and computing, almost always by complete and total accident. I've left another forum because of one hypersensitive former IT person, who seems to take violent exception to so many things that it's hard to know what you can post without causing the chap to go off on one.

When I used to work, the people in HR had a theory that people who were attracted to working in IT were often those who found it hard to interact socially with people in other areas of work. I recall our old HR director saying that there it was far more work managing the 5% of the workforce that worked in the IT section than it was looking after everyone else. I've no idea if that's true generally, or just an inappropriate generalisation, but it had the ring of truth about it to me.

5th Sep 2016, 18:43

...were you need to be direct and blunt to get your requirements understood by those who work for you and or provide services to your effort,

I guess English is not your first language then ..

It's "where" not "were"

snicker snicker

5th Sep 2016, 19:05
In fairness

he did say he had a lack of ability in Queens English and apostrophes:ok:

5th Sep 2016, 19:29
I had numerous problems with my teenage girls and Facebook and the other flavours of the day. They would often go off on one because someone had 'said' something. It was often an innocent text, but no matter how many times I told them that you cannot interpret the intent behind the actual text they would often respond, making things much worse than it needed to be.

I know it used to drive their headmaster crazy.

Same on here at times. Someone will read a thread out of the intended context, respond with their view and so it goes on.

At least some people on here can recognise when a thread goes awry and apologise for any mis-interpretation.

5th Sep 2016, 20:22
Why are people so rude on PPRuNe?

Because they are people.
Also, because this is a pilots forum, and quite often pilots have an over-inflated ego not me, of course
I actually don't mind a bit of "in-your-face" attitude, but I'm quite nauseated by this PC crap so fashionable today.

5th Sep 2016, 20:26
.........I guess English is not your first language then ............................

In fairness, he did say he was a Lancastrian. ;)

5th Sep 2016, 20:42
Electronic communication lacks both context and tone, which makes it impossible to pick up subtleties such as sarcasm. Add a smattering of people who have trouble discerning such subtleties at the best of times, a few intent on windup anyway and the odd attention whore and you get a pretty combustible mixture.

I try to look at every email I send and wonder what it would look like to the person getting it, maybe if more people did similar on the Internet it might be a little less unpleasant.....

Pontius Navigator
5th Sep 2016, 21:03
Andy, a bit like when we encoded messages if we had time. Encode, get someone to decode and then see if they understood it.

Once I sent a message and it was interpreted exactly opposite from that intended, doh!

5th Sep 2016, 21:14
In polite society one can agree to disagree, and my rule of thumb is to try to treat others as I would wish to be treated myself. Although this may be seen as a challenge by some members of this forum, I've found it a positive way to communicate .... so far!

5th Sep 2016, 22:21
Indeed. Being mean or rude is different than having polite discourse over differing opinions. I have noticed that when polite discourse is engaged on this forum, it seldom degenerates to sophistry, which is refreshing. However, name-calling is frequently the default strategy of many.

As an aside, I doubt that the majority of posters on PPRuNe are pilots, current or otherwise, especially on Jet Blast. I would hazard to guess that maybe 40% of posters on Jet Blast are current pilots.

5th Sep 2016, 22:54
Some of us are navigators.

(not very current though ;))

5th Sep 2016, 23:35
I have noticed that when polite discourse is engaged on this forum, it seldom degenerates to sophistry

Have a gander at any number of US political threads and you might find yourself reconsidering this statement. ;)

Loose rivets
5th Sep 2016, 23:56
Many years ago, someone who's name is something-boy, was snotty with me. I thought I'd respond with something unashamedly ripped from Rowan Atkinson.

What were you before you were XXX-boy? XXX- Infant? Or perhaps, XXX-baby, or (and I think I got to XXX-foetus) when Rob (the younger) I think it was, killed the thread and called us Neanderthals.

I was so disappointed, I was all set with XXX-embryo? and XXX-twinkle in father's eye?

Just no fun these mods, sometimes. :p

6th Sep 2016, 05:15
After many years here, I've come to realise that there are a few very obnoxious posters who will almost always be rude, it's how they get their entertainment. It's not just this forum, either, I've been a member of other fora where there have always been a few very rude and obnoxious posters...

Just to help out in my very most polite way ;)

From the Oxford dictionary
Forum: NOUN (plural forums)

1A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged:
we hope these pages act as a forum for debate
More example sentences Synonyms
1.1An Internet site where users can post comments about a particular issue or topic and reply to other users' postings.
Example sentences
2chiefly North American A court or tribunal.
Example sentences
3 (plural fora /ˈfɔːrə/) (In an ancient Roman city) a public square or marketplace used for judicial and other business.

No need to thank me - I'm just happy to help keep forums like this as grammatically correct as I can :ok:

Effluent Man
6th Sep 2016, 08:36
Et tu David.

6th Sep 2016, 10:02
I do have pretty broad shoulders ..and laugh a lot, just now I am chuckling at many of the replies.....;):D:p brought up in Lancashire and spending a lot of time in Yorkshire does prepare one for hard knocks and insults.. they are only words though..:ok:

6th Sep 2016, 10:08
You might think so Peter!

6th Sep 2016, 10:45
Well, they did say The pen is mightier than the sword.
Time to update it to The keyboard is mightier than the gun, maybe...?

6th Sep 2016, 11:04
Strange how Americans are almost invariably polite in face to face meetings, not so much on the Internet. Couldn't possibly be due to many carrying lethal weaponry about their person 24 hours a day?

I agree with earlier posters who make the point that you shouldn't post anything that you would not be prepared to say to someone's face.

Okay, there are some rude idiots out there, posts get mistyped or misinterpreted, but on the whole I find most posts do keep within acceptable limits, even when highly contentious subjects are discussed. PPRuNe and Jet Blast are probably up there among the best on the Internet in terms of intellectual discussion without unnecessary insults and name calling needing to be constantly filtered out. (Obviously the Mods do that if necessary anyway.)

6th Sep 2016, 11:22
From the Oxford dictionary
Forum: NOUN (plural forums)

Too many pedantic ba on this forum ;)

6th Sep 2016, 11:40
Strange how Americans are almost invariably polite in face to face meetings, not so much on the Internet.

That's an interesting observation, and tallies well with my personal experience. Over the years I've probably spent a couple of years in total working in the US, and can honestly say that I can't recall ever meeting anyone that was rude. Getting used to directness, and people telling you their life story by way of an introduction took some getting used to, for this Brit, where being a bit reserved is part of my culture, but I experienced some of the most touching acts of kindness ever from people in the US, often completely out of the blue.

I remember walking across an airfield, with my wife, once, when someone I'd never met ran over to us and just said "I heard your British accents and wanted to say thanks on behalf of America for your support during 9/11", then gave each of us a small US flag pin.

Another time was when I was stuck in Idaho (out near Caldwell, so out in the sticks) when at breakfast in the airfield diner the fact that it was my birthday came up in conversation with the waitress. She asked if I was coming in for dinner that evening, I said yes, and when I arrived a bunch of near-strangers had put on a birthday party for me.

I cannot imagine anything like that happening in the UK.

6th Sep 2016, 12:24
Can you people please stop the hair colour/skin colour/nationalistic bigotry and bias? In the short term, I doubt it. In the long term, I think it is a definite yes.

Let us thoughtfully respond to this forum's threads with civility, without defamation, and without stereotypical, nationalistic references. .. I'd love that!.

Let us look forward to an Autumn full of reasoned and objective e-debates, shall we?..

6th Sep 2016, 13:12
Given that my post (to which you seem to be replying) was praising the friendliness I'd experienced from Americans I find your post very out of place. Did you misunderstand what I wrote?

Edited to add:

The post this was referring to has been edited and so the above reply by me isn't really relevant now.

6th Sep 2016, 13:45
Loved your post. Well said, by the way..

I was responding to the other 1,879 mean spirited and rude responses that incited my previous post..

To counter the negativity, I submit for your approval, the following quasi-objective examples:

I freely state that China does indeed copy Western electronic technology. But so does Japan, S. Korea and Russia. Collusion? Probably. Joint espionage? (Tit for Tat) Certainly. The major high-tech global corporations would plead otherwise if audited.

Was the IL-86 a Soviet copy of an American design? Or was it a copy of a future Airbus design? Or both? Or none of the later.. Is there an American template of conformity/copy-cat design? Just look at the basic Boeing 707, Douglas DC-8 and Convair 880. Corporate collusion? You bet! Yet many Soviet designs were unique, based on no Western designs whatsoever.. ., as were several Japanese designs. Germany copied several Western concepts and design planforms, yet they were seldom, if ever, accused of copying. Funny that. But many folks are too quick to point out USSR's copying of Britain's superb long-range airliner, the Vickers VC-10, which resulted in the Soviet IL-62. Which was better, the Vickers Vanguard or the IL-18? Was it a copy? Does it matter? I've flown on both, and the IL-18 is far superior. I've flown on the IL-62 and fully enjoyed a quiet, comfortable, uneventful flight. I've never flown on the VC-10, but I imagine it would be somewhat similar. I've flown on the YAK-40 as well. What was the 1966 western equivalent of the YAK-40? I don't think there was one. Did the YAK-40 have a cheese-cloth interior and did it burn diesel fuel at an enormous rate? (Yes to both questions, according to my colleague). Perhaps, but the seats of the YAK-40 fit me just fine, the A/C worked, and the windows were big, so I viewed some beautiful aerial landscapes in smooth jet-powered comfort, versus my domestic piston powered (DC-6B) stable mates. . All my flights on Soviet-built aircraft departed and arrived within 1 minute of the published times. Cliche's and rhetoric be damned.

I fully acknowledge that two, maybe three Caucasians invented the electronic transistor semi-conductor. As a result, GE made a good radio. SONY subsequently made an even better, more affordable radio. SANYO and PANASONIC followed. The rest is history, which is formed by dynamic sociological, cultural, economic, and political forces. As Jared Diamond once stated, geography is destiny. I will add theology as a major force that shapes history, regardless of a nation's proximity to iron ore.. The aforementioned statements do not mention nor infer an innate superiority nor inferiority of a specific nationality or "race". See? It is just that easy!

Circa 1989: "I drive a CAT!" "Always have! I ain't driving no Jap piece of crap HITACHI"
Circa 1999: "I love my HITACHI. I ain't driving no commie piece of crap HYUNDAI"*
Circa 2009: "Love my HYUNDAI, I am not driving no Paki SANY".
Circa 2016: "SANY is good. I am not to be knowing nor to be even caring where it is built, because at least I am having a job"

See? Modern life is basically crap, but at least I didn't denigrate a specific group. Or did I?

*I am quite aware that South Korea is NOT communist.

6th Sep 2016, 18:04
Back in the early-eighties I was briefly involved with reverse-engineering some Soviet equipment. It was astoundingly well-made by Western standards, and pretty innovative. The memory of that experience has always given me respect for Russian engineering, in sharp contrast to all our propaganda of the time that denigrated all things Soviet.

I'm not sure about fashion and dress sense, though. I remember sitting next to a Russian trade delegate on a shuttle flight to Glasgow, not long after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. He was a very friendly chap, with a wrist watch the size of an alarm clock and a suit and tie that looked like something sold here around 20 years earlier. He got into his element when he discovered there were free drinks on board. We spent the entire hour and twenty minutes making toasts, with shots of whisky followed by a glass of water. Mind you, he started in bad taste for me, by toasting Margaret Thatcher, but we were getting along fine by the time he got to Nelson Mandela............

Loose rivets
8th Sep 2016, 01:29
Bloody Nora! Again.

Having said what I thought about a really cutting post, I searched via goo goo for a thing about neck creases. Instead, in an instant, I was looking at this from nearly ten years ago.

How weird is that?

I really did react to a post a year or so back. It may just have been extraordinary bad timing - coupled with disgusting bad taste that I went into a moment of red mist. In the event I wrote a very controlled open reply pointing out the bad, if not failed, character of my literary assailant. It was as cutting as it's possible to be without resorting to bad language.

My feelings about neck creases are one of uggyness. I always imagine things in them. Kid's sweets, spare string in abundance. A biro. A giant Platypus turtle with clockwork revolving eye. Extra string in abundance.

Hands up anyone that doesn't understand.

I was looking forward to venting my spleen within the next few posts, but the exchange had been deleted by the time I returned.

I think in a decade it's the only time I've really been annoyed.

8th Sep 2016, 04:48
Can you people please stop the hair colour/skin colour/nationalistic bigotry and bias?