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gemma10
1st Sep 2016, 15:46
Whats going on nationwide with unlreaded and diesel prices. Here in E Sussex its going bonkers. Monday diesel 108p, Tuesday 113p, Wednesday 108p. The same thing last week with unleaded.

ricardian
1st Sep 2016, 19:31
Whats going on nationwide with unlreaded and diesel prices. Here in E Sussex its going bonkers. Monday diesel 108p, Tuesday 113p, Wednesday 108p. The same thing last week with unleaded.
Definitely going bonkers. It hasn't been that low up here for years

sitigeltfel
1st Sep 2016, 20:02
Diesel around the equivalent of 0.92 ltr here, 95RON unleaded 1.09 :ok:

Cazalet33
1st Sep 2016, 20:16
Get an electric car. Get a life.

PDR1
1st Sep 2016, 20:30
The trouble is the two are mutually exclusive.

PDR

Gertrude the Wombat
1st Sep 2016, 20:37
Here in E Sussex its going bonkers. Monday diesel 108p, Tuesday 113p, Wednesday 108p.
Maybe the lower price is when someone finds an odd tankfull of pre-brexit-priced fuel? - it'll settle down at the higher price once all the cheap stuff has been sold, no doubt.

sitigeltfel
1st Sep 2016, 21:01
Musks cars run on snake oil.

A DeLorean for the 21st century.

Linedog
1st Sep 2016, 21:12
Get older, get a bus pass. :ok:

Cazalet33
1st Sep 2016, 21:21
Dinosaur cars run on Seneca oil, aka snake oil.

Modern cars run quietly and cleanly and powerfully and cheaply on electricity.

No need for the stinky stuff, at any price.

It's not the price of seneca oil that's bonkers. It's the idea of burning it in explosive bang-banger-bang bangers that's bonkers.

As for deLoreans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0kswK2aI08

88mph is old hat.

mini
1st Sep 2016, 22:30
Modern cars run quietly and cleanly and powerfully and cheaply on electricity

Unfortunately electric cars at the moment don't have the range (range/weight) to be realistic options for the majority of motorists.

MG23
1st Sep 2016, 23:43
Modern cars run quietly and cleanly and powerfully and cheaply on electricity.

And, for the other the 2/3 of the time, they're paperweights while you're charging them.

Takan Inchovit
2nd Sep 2016, 01:33
.... and cheaply on electricity.


How much for a set of new toxic replacement batteries?

Una Due Tfc
2nd Sep 2016, 03:12
Musk's cars have the same issue that has handicapped American cars for donkey's years.....they're too heavy to go around a hairpin. 0-60 times are not as fun as hitting a cambered bend and flicking the tail on the exit just for fun.

Effluent Man
2nd Sep 2016, 07:07
Drove from Suffolk to Paris yesterday it was 1.12 at Morrisons on Wednesday. Stopped on the autoroute because my light was on but only put in ten euros at almost 1.20 a litre. The local hypermarket has it 92p ish as Siti posted. On the plus side my Merc C220 did 63mpg so the 360 miles cost me less than thirty quid at UK prices - 35psi Michelins, cruise control set to 70.

sitigeltfel
2nd Sep 2016, 07:32
Cars that cost at least twice as much as a comparable vehicle and cannot be afforded by the average driver. They only exist because of massive subsidies given to their already wealthy owners. Even when they filter down to the used market they will be shunned because of the horrendous cost of battery replacement. The recycling issues will soon be apparent and a survey a few years back found that the vehicle that was the greenest over its lifetime was the Jeep Wrangler due to its low tech construction and the suitability of the majority of its components for recycling.
They will probably end up burying dead Teslas alongside nuclear waste.

Trossie
2nd Sep 2016, 07:57
Get an electric car. Get a life.A 'life' that comes to an end when the lights go out! sitigeltfel couldn't have summed it all up better!

The best car is a well designed modern petrol-engine car. None of that horrible crap that diesels kick into the atmosphere and at 1.08 per litre you are not only paying your way in the world, but contributing 58p per litre towards all those subsidies needed by those electric car drivers to help them with their misguided smug and cuddly feeling that they have with their big 'Scalextric' toys.

(I love it when I hear the smug "my car's not polluting the roads" thing from electric car drivers... No, you are polluting the beautiful countryside near Drax power station! But then most of these electric car drivers are townies who don't know what beautiful countryside is!!)

Fareastdriver
2nd Sep 2016, 08:41
The day after the Referendum when the dropped from $1.50 to $1.33 to the pound I thought to myself that petrol, being priced at source in dollars, is going to rocket. With that I filled my car at 113.9p/litre.

The tears run down my face as I pass yet another filling station advertising it at 109.99/litre.

Cazalet33
2nd Sep 2016, 09:48
Unfortunately electric cars at the moment don't have the range (range/weight) to be realistic options for the majority of motorists.

Totally untrue.

Even in California 90% of private journeys are for a distance of 29 miles or less.

In Britain the equivalent figure is that 95% of private journeys are for a distance of 27 miles or less.

A Tesla Model S P100DL will give you 310 mile range, easily. A 25 minute recharge will give you another 175 miles of range.

A 485 mile journey with less than a half hour break for lunch is reasonable.

Range really isn't an issue for good electric cars nowadays.

Cazalet33
2nd Sep 2016, 09:54
they're too heavy to go around a hairpin

Utter bollocks!

The C of G is below the tops of the wheels because all the weight of batteries and motors is below the carpet.

The Tesla Model S goes around sharp bends at high speed like it's on rails.

I've scared myself silly a couple of times, but that's only because I've never traveled at such high speed round sharp bends, not because there has been any loss of grip.

DirtyProp
2nd Sep 2016, 09:56
Better yet, get a 4-stroke scooter.
Small engine, lower pollution, less money out of your pocket.
Reasonable weather prevailing, obviously.

sitigeltfel
2nd Sep 2016, 09:59
A Tesla Model S P100DL will give you 310 mile range, easily. A 25 minute recharge will give you another 175 miles of range.

List price 114,200.

The hard pressed basic rate taxpayer will also hand you a 4,500 grant, so remember to touch your forelock as one cruises by.

Tesla Model S P100DL And Model X P100DL Pricing Revealed For Europe (http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-p100dl-model-x-p100dl-pricing-revealed-europe/)

Cazalet33
2nd Sep 2016, 10:00
toxic replacement batteries

They're only toxic if you eat them.

Don't eat the batteries. Try not to lick the windows either, Takan.

Dunno how much a new set would cost. My pack has an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty and present projections indicate that the degradation in capacity after ten years will be something like 20%. With 80% capacity remaining, it probably isn't sensible to recycle the batteries that soon.

No way of knowing what the price of batteries will be after another 15 years of production expansion and technology improvements.

Cazalet33
2nd Sep 2016, 10:14
remember to touch your forelock as one cruises by.

Or flick him/her the middle finger as you cruise by in a 35k Model 3. 215 miles of range and no fuel to buy for the rest of your life.

gemma10
2nd Sep 2016, 12:21
Its all gone a bit off topic, the diesel prices here are still varying enormously on a daily basis, which is quite unusual. On the subject of electric cars, five or seven years down the line, how much are you going to fork out for a new battery. At least I can repair my diesel engine.

longer ron
2nd Sep 2016, 12:57
My 1997 pug 306 1.9 turbo diesel has a genuine (easy) 600 mile range :).
I am struggling a bit with its whopping 50 per annum depreciation - just off on a long trip tomorrow and see what the latest diesel price is dahn sarf :)

Trossie
2nd Sep 2016, 13:24
My 14-year-old petrol car is just 'tippity-boo' and the petrol tank didn't end up 20% smaller after 10 years (that 20% degradation thing...) with mpg still being good. Being a good quality car it still has many, many years and miles left. And it takes me about 5 minutes to fill up, so I can squeeze that in on the way to work when I find that it's low.

I wonder how those electric car batteries do in the cold? I know that I've had to stick camera batteries under my arm sometimes on very cold days to get a bit more out of them. Do Tesla batteries fit under your arm? Where do they go when you 'bin' them? Isn't it some expensive process to get rid of duds?

Sallyann1234
2nd Sep 2016, 14:08
At least I can repair my diesel engine
I envy you that ability. :ok:

The 2.0 TDI in my 2016 Audi is fiendishly complex and presumably needs special tools, quite apart from the problem of access. When the cam belt was changed on the previous one, the whole front of the car had to come off.

Random SLF
2nd Sep 2016, 15:54
If you sign up to https://www.petrolprices.com (for free!) you'll get an email every week with the cheapest prices in your area for either diesel or petrol. You can set the area radius from your home postcode too. They do send out the occasional advertising junkmail though.

Out Of Trim
2nd Sep 2016, 16:58
What will happen when electric cars become more common?

Recharge points seem to be few and far between. That 25 minute recharge might include a 3 hour wait in the queue for the charging point! I still think a hybrid might be a better option. No range issues and less chance of being stranded.

gemma10
2nd Sep 2016, 17:15
I should have written "at least I can have my diesel engine repaired". I think you missed my point Sallyann. You are unlikely to do that with a battery.

Fareastdriver
2nd Sep 2016, 18:37
Shanghai should now have about 25,000 charging point for electric cars. Against this they have just banned the most useful of vehicles, the electric scooter, which look like full sized examples.

Their is no problem with supply; they have stacks of coal fired and nuclear power stations.

tdracer
2nd Sep 2016, 18:51
Utter bollocks!

The C of G is below the tops of the wheels because all the weight of batteries and motors is below the carpet.

The Tesla Model S goes around sharp bends at high speed like it's on rails.

I've scared myself silly a couple of times, but that's only because I've never traveled at such high speed round sharp bends, not because there has been any loss of grip.
The American version of Top Gear let the Stig take a Tesla S P90 around a racetrack (Miller Motorsports Park IIRC) - the Cadillac CTS dusted it by 4 seconds a lap. Four seconds is an eternity on the track. You think your Tesla handles on rails simply because you never drove something that did...

Fareastdriver, wholesale price of gasoline is running around $1/gallon. You're paying nearly six times that because of taxes (so you can subsidize Caz's lifestyle :}), not the cost of the product.

Trossie
3rd Sep 2016, 05:44
... wholesale price of gasoline is running around $1/gallon. You're paying nearly six times that because of taxes (so you can subsidize Caz's lifestyle ), not the cost of the product.

My words previously:

... and at 1.08 per litre you are not only paying your way in the world, but contributing 58p per litre towards all those subsidies needed by those electric car drivers to help them with their misguided smug and cuddly feeling that they have with their big 'Scalextric' toys.

Petrol drivers are the ones who should feel 'smug': most of their emissions help feed nice green plants, they don't emit the clouds of lung poisoning gunk as diesels do, they don't pollute someone else's back-yard 100s of miles from where they drive (i.e. the likes of the environs of Drax power station that provides the electricity for those Scalextric toys) and they contribute a fortune to the welfare of the country through the huge taxes that they pay!

Cazalet33
5th Sep 2016, 08:35
Scalextric toys

2.3 tonnes; 762hp; 0-60mph in 2.8 seconds.

Scalextric must have upped their game since I was a kid!


I must make a correction to my post #23.

The Model 3 will not automatically come with free access to the Supercharger network. There will be some kind of fee: either a flat fee for 'free' access for life or some kind of block booking or even a per kWhr fee. It is only the Models S and X which will remain free for life.

Cazalet33
5th Sep 2016, 08:41
On the subject of electric cars, five or seven years down the line, how much are you going to fork out for a new battery.

Not yet known. Even the earliest delivered Model S cars are nowhere near the end of the battery's warranty period so nobody has had to buy one.

I did ask as I'd like to buy one as a power reserve to collect some of my excess capacity from my solar array and wind turbine. I'd like to have a 90kWhr pack in the garage floor so that I can do a rapid charge of the car's battery when coming home instead of waiting for my puny 11kW charger to do its thing.

Even the oldest Model S packs are many many years away from end of life unless they've been negligently abused.

Cazalet33
5th Sep 2016, 09:00
I wonder how those electric car batteries do in the cold? I know that I've had to stick camera batteries under my arm sometimes on very cold days to get a bit more out of them.

I've only had mine for one winter in Scotland and that was a very mild one.

Experience of owners in Canada and Norway, where -20C and colder is commonplace, shows that there is about a 10% loss. That is easily overcome by pre-heating the battery. Experienced owners plan their winter overnight charge to end just before the car is going to be used so the battery never got cold to begin with. They also pre-heat the interior of the car and the windscreens, something you can do remotely from the smartphone app.

The full length of the roof is fully glazed so on a hot sunny day it's wise to pre-coll the car to a comfortable level.

Over-heating of the battery under very high loads, such as long distance high-speed trips on Germany's autobahns. The system automatically limits the amount of power you can draw from the battery if the battery gets too warm and the heat accumulation is more than the battery coolant system can handle. Worse, it can also limit the amount of regen you can poke back into the pack which can mean energy being wasted by using the old-fashioned mechanical brakes.

Pontius Navigator
5th Sep 2016, 22:01
Caz, the problem in Scotland, worse than Canada, is the winter daylight. Using lights and heater, windscreen wipers, radio and whatever will all eat in to useful range. Do you have any experience of that?

When I was up there a working day cold soak of 15 hours and a 45 miles night drive each way would be normal and quite a trial. Cold soak may extend to 48 hrs or more.

Gertrude the Wombat
5th Sep 2016, 22:09
they don't emit the clouds of lung poisoning gunk as diesels do
Yeahbut the reason we drive diesels is because the government told us to on account of them being more green than petrol. Not my fault if they've subsequently changed their minds.

Cazalet33
5th Sep 2016, 23:01
the problem in Scotland, worse than Canada, is the winter daylight. Using lights and heater, windscreen wipers, radio and whatever will all eat in to useful range. Do you have any experience of that?

Yes, I now have a year's worth of experience of that, specifically in Scotland.

Actually, it's not much of a problem if you charge the car at home.

Teslas, in actual day to day life, don't get close to driving the full battery capacity on any single trip. One simply doesn't do that on anything like a regular basis, just like most petrol or diesel cars don't.

Even in heavy rain, which eats up an extra 10% or so of energy, it's not a big deal, just like it isn't in a dinosaur car which suffers exactly the same penalty.

The whole "range" thing is a bit of a myth about Teslas. Just not an issue in real life.

Fairdealfrank
5th Sep 2016, 23:57
Fuel Prices
Whats going on nationwide with unlreaded and diesel prices. Here in E Sussex its going bonkers. Monday diesel 108p, Tuesday 113p, Wednesday 108p. The same thing last week with unleaded.
Simple laws of supply and demand, if it sells at the increased price the price will continue to rise. If it doesn't the price will fall.

The extreme example of this is motorway services where the they have the motorist by the balls, a captive market with plenty of demand and nowhere else to go.



Quote:
they don't emit the clouds of lung poisoning gunk as diesels do


Yeahbut the reason we drive diesels is because the government told us to on account of them being more green than petrol. Not my fault if they've subsequently changed their minds. Only because the government is completely obsessed with carbon dioxide to the exclusion of any other pollutants (including NOx).

evansb
6th Sep 2016, 07:31
Oh Pontious Navigator, regarding your comment referencing the Scottish problem of winter daylight being more of a concern to Sottish motorists than Canadian motorists is an example of an under-estimation and, perhaps, a limited understanding of global geography. Many Canadian roads are not paved, hence they have no road markings. During winter, most of Canada's hard-surfaced highways suffer under the liberal application of road salts and abrasives that contribute to the early erosion of centre-line and shoulder markings.

Trossie
6th Sep 2016, 07:58
Yeahbut the reason we drive diesels is because the government told us to on account of them being more green than petrol. Not my fault if they've subsequently changed their minds.Gertie, Do some of your own thinking!! As a politician (of sorts) yourself, you should know never to trust a politician! The only thing 'un-green' about petrol is it's levels of CO2 emissions. But then that's what makes it so much more green than diesel: plants use that CO2, they don't use all that horrible crap that is ejected from diesels. Diesels are dangerous for human health. Politicians who have promoted diesel are dangerously clueless (which is pretty much the norm for politicians). Of course, for those with their Scalextric car playthings, they don't have a clue what the emissions are because they are usually 100s of miles from the source of those emissions (a real 'NIMBY' approach to things!) which could be from all sorts of generation types.

Scotland has the problem that in mid-winter the sun is only up for about 7 hours and at its highest is only 11 above the southern horizon. (And some poor misguided souls think that this it quite OK for 'solar energy generation'!) In mid-summer they do have the sun up for about 17-and-a-half hours but at its best it is still only 57 above the horizon. Great lighting for artistic photography, useless for efficient solar power generation. So you need to pollute the countryside around places like Drax to get your power (like a true NIMBY!). I used to do 170 mile per day throughout winter in Scotland. With the heating running in the car, the wipers going and the lights on most of the time, I wold not have liked to have relied on a battery, especially with the car being parked outdoors and getting cold during the day (as I've said, I've been able to put weak camera batteries under my arm to get a bit more out of them when cold, not so sure about a big car battery!). And when I needed petrol it took about 5 to 10 minutes out of my journey then I was on the way again.

The sooner we are rid of these subsidy-junkies who think that solar power at such high latitudes is a clever thing or using up that much needed electrical power generation to drive their car, the sooner taxes can come down and we can get near to fuel prices that aren't so heavily hammered with tax.

Cazalet33
6th Sep 2016, 09:16
you need to pollute the countryside around places like Drax to get your power

Let's not get carried away with the Drax thing.

Well over 9 recharges out of 10 for my Tesla come from home-brew power which doesn't burn a nugget of coal. 100% from solar and wind. If the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing, I wait to recharge until later. With 250-300 miles worth on a full battery and driving an (uneven) average of 250 miles a week that's never a problem.

Even the Tesla Superchargers draw a tiny percentage of juice from coal-fired stations. The Ecotricity chargers are 100% covered by renewable power.

Here's how the grid looked at 09:10z this morning:

https://s18.postimg.org/6boq0b0ex/grid.jpg

Where do you get your electricity from, Trossie? Whose back yard do you pollute?

Cazalet33
6th Sep 2016, 09:31
As for "subsidy junkies", let's abolish subsidies on fossil fuels. Now that really would be progress.

https://s13.postimg.org/gbw2smpgn/subsidy.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/a26k2kdi9/subsidy1.jpg

https://s12.postimg.org/j6tq54g3h/subsidy2.jpg

Trossie
6th Sep 2016, 09:44
The Ecotricity [sic] chargers are 100% covered by renewable power.I always find that one funny. Had one of those 'renewables' nuisance phone calls a while back and was told that they could provide me with '100% renewable' electricity, so I asked "I am looking out of the window at the power line that provides electricity to our village, which strands of the cables are providing that '100% renewable' electricity?" (Splutter, mutter on the other end of the phone!)

Caz, I don't use electricity to run my car. That is why I am so conscious of the emissions from my car as they are in my 'back yard' and I don't want to be the cause of any of that noxious diesel stuff.

(I think that your graphs are saying to me "don't live in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia, Venezuela, Egypt or Uzbekistan". Don't worry, I don't intend to! And, hey-ho!, 'climate change finance'! Let's fund a warmer climate here, so that there's no need to travel so far on holiday!)

Cazalet33
6th Sep 2016, 09:55
Where do you get your electricity from, Trossie? Whose back yard do you pollute?

I wasn't asking what devices you use your juice on, just: where do you get it from? Drax?

As for Ecotricity, yes they really do have 100% coverage of renewables. Not many other power companies in the UK can boast that. Mebbe the company formerly known as "Scottish Hydro" might have been able to in days of yore, but now they're part of SSE I doubt they can make that claim.

As for us in Scotland, we have a bonkers target which has led to the countryside being festooned with enormous industrial wind turbines and there's a dearth of investment in hydro-electric generating capacity in the country. We are rapidly becoming dependent on power imports from Norway. That's nuts.

Trossie
6th Sep 2016, 10:01
Caz, as I've said, I don't use electricity to run my car. (The topic of this thread is about fuel prices for cars?)

I fully agree with you about that bonkers plan to destroy the beautiful Scottish countryside.

Cazalet33
6th Sep 2016, 10:02
that noxious diesel stuff

I concur with that sentiment.

I've heard, from an oncologist, that diesel-associated cancers have increased since the introduction of better burn and better exhaust systems as the particulate matter is now so fine that the body doesn't cough it up. A classic example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

To get rid of the problem meaningful taxes need to be levied on diesel engines and their fuel. Of course that would start to get squirrelly when people discover that you can burn tax-free Jet-A1 in a diesel!

Pontius Navigator
6th Sep 2016, 12:56
Caz, thank you. The scenario I mentioned with the long daily cold soak was parking on an airfield for long periods.

I can imagine a change in habit too at the expense of Mrs beauty sleep where she would drive me to work then recover car if I had a 24-48 hours work period with no charging available.

Would Goverment Departments install charging points as an incentive; as good an incentive as a purchase discount.

Cazalet33
7th Sep 2016, 09:55
The scenario I mentioned with the long daily cold soak was parking on an airfield for long periods.

Let's take a not particularly hypothetical case of a two-night layover with the car in an open carpark for 48 hours in an OAT -4C.

A Flintstone car will be an ice-covered lump which will take ten minutes of engine idling to defrost with deicing fluid and a scraper to clear the windscreens.

With a Tesla, you use the app on your smartphone to start the aircon and raise the internal temp to whatever you select long before your arrive at the car. I usually choose 23C. This will also warm the battery, albeit very slowly. If it's been running for much less than an hour you may see a limit on the power draw available, but that'll only be 10 or 20%. Worst case would be 762hp - 20% = 610hp. Twice as much horsepower as a Porsche 911. That's quite enough grunt to get you on your way and if you use as much as half that much power you'll heat the battery to normal op temp within a few minutes. It's really not an issue.

There can be a problem at the other end of the temp scale though. If you've been flogging the horses hard for a protracted period, such as half an hour of spirited driving on an autobahn, the cooling system within the battery pack can run out of authority and the system will place a limit on the amount power you can draw, but worse,the amount of power energy you can put back into the pack by very harsh regen braking from very high speed.

The cooling/heating system in the battery pack is pretty good. It's designed for a Californian summer and a Montana winter, so a Brit winter is no challenge.

Fareastdriver
7th Sep 2016, 10:41
start the aircon and raise the internal temp to whatever you select

How does it do that if the battery is to cold to be efficient.

Cazalet33
7th Sep 2016, 11:27
The battery is never too cold to work. Not at British winter temps anyway.

By switching on the aircon and seat heaters etc, you start to warm the battery. As the battery warms up it returns to full output capacity.

Remember that on a good day, with a fully charged pack, she'll output well over 500kW. Even with all the heating systems on she'll only pull 7 or 8kW. That leaves plenty of power for the motors.

Of course cold-soaking for a couple of days at -40C would be a different deal, but a Flintstone car, especially a diesel, would be struggling too.

Pontius Navigator
7th Sep 2016, 16:10
Oh Pontious Navigator, regarding your comment referencing the Scottish problem of winter daylight being more of a concern to Sottish motorists than Canadian motorists is an example of an under-estimation and, perhaps, a limited understanding of global geography. Many Canadian roads are not paved, hence they have no road markings. During winter, most of Canada's hard-surfaced highways suffer under the liberal application of road salts and abrasives that contribute to the early erosion of centre-line and shoulder markings.
That is climatology not geography. Scotland is further north than most of the population centres in Canada hence there is more dependence on car light when commuting in winter. Canada of course has considerably lower temperatures with consequent need for heating. Iceland and Scandinavia also have low temperatures and greater periods of darkness.

Pontius Navigator
7th Sep 2016, 16:12
Caz, indeed, one drove my SAAB back from Inverness to Nairn, everything on, heater, rear window, wipers, lights, gigs, radio etc. Went in to town, parked up, switched off, 5 minutes later the car would not start, flat battery.

longer ron
19th Sep 2016, 12:08
Longer ron
My 1997 pug 306 1.9 turbo diesel has a genuine (easy) 600 mile range .
I am struggling a bit with its whopping 50 per annum depreciation - just off on a long trip tomorrow and see what the latest diesel price is dahn sarf

Just back from our recent trip - scotland to Gatwick (filled up at Beare Green cos we spent a bit of time at the Gatwick aircraft museum :)).
470 miles to BG at 72 indicated in scotland,75-80 indicated in england with a fun 20 mins crawl on the M25 due to an earlier accident.Works out at 46mpg approx so happy with that :) for mway cruise.
Got back yesterday in 8.5 hours (inc 30 mins at tebay for fatboy brekky) with 1/4 tank remaining - as I said earlier the pug has a genuine 600 mile range so never have to pay mway fuel prices.
Both fill ups were sub 1.20 per litre (1.129 in scotland +1.119 in sunny surrey).