RAF Flight Suits

[Flyingspanner83]

Anyone know the difference between the MK14(A) MK15 and MK16A(A) flight suits?
I know the 'A' series includes the knee pockets and the MK16 is nomex, but some seem to believe the 14 and 15 are also nomex?

Thanks in advance for any light shed on this very important and engaging matter!

[airborne_artist]

Try this thread (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/114214-flying-suit.html)

[Tashengurt]

Don't know about the Mk16 but the 14's are nomex. I think the 15's are too.

[Shackman]

I think the last non-nomex flying suit was the Mk 7 lightweight suit for tropical climes. I had 2 in FEAF - they were great as no matter how much you perspired, as soon as you landed it was straight under the shower and then leave it on the hangar in the locker room and it was dry in next to no time. Despite the best efforts of supply (?) wing I still had them for a tour in Cyprus inthe 70's, but even though almost everyone else on the Sqn wanted one they were no longer 'in stock'. Eventually had to change them and only nomex suits (ISTR Mk 11) were available.
For interest there was a film at the Survival School at Mountbatten (then St Mawgan) showing the fire retardent properties of the nomex suit and what happened in fires etc - after seeing that I never wore anything else for flying, with the appropriate kit underneath as well!

[Flyingspanner83]

I think the last non-nomex flying suit was the Mk 7 lightweight suit for tropical climes. I had 2 in FEAF - they were great as no matter how much you perspired, as soon as you landed it was straight under the shower and then leave it on the hangar in the locker room and it was dry in next to no time. Despite the best efforts of supply (?) wing I still had them for a tour in Cyprus inthe 70's, but even though almost everyone else on the Sqn wanted one they were no longer 'in stock'. Eventually had to change them and only nomex suits (ISTR Mk 11) were available.
For interest there was a film at the Survival School at Mountbatten (then St Mawgan) showing the fire retardent properties of the nomex suit and what happened in fires etc - after seeing that I never wore anything else for flying, with the appropriate kit underneath as well!

Thanks very much for this. Very interesting.

[[email protected]]

For interest there was a film at the Survival School at Mountbatten (then St Mawgan) showing the fire retardent properties of the nomex suit and what happened in fires etc - after seeing that I never wore anything else for flying, with the appropriate kit underneath as well! people moaning about being too hot in cockpits in the summer and wanting to wear T-shirts forget how vital the cotton layer underneath the nomex suit is to prevent burns.

I still wear the roll-neck and long underwear every flight - you only have to see one victim of burns for it to convince you that a little discomfort is much better than a lot of pain and scarring.

[camelspyyder]

Is the 15 not a supersized 14 to go over an aircrew NBC kit?

The 16 never seemed much of an improvement - a slight colour change, different shaped shoulder tabs was all I remember. Certainly the contract for 16's moved about, some made in Ireland, some in Germany - the German ones were very inconsistently sized - often too short between the neck and crotch - not comfy at all.

[57mm]

They were all beautifully tailored too, with a Jetta boot that made us look right numpties compared with our USAF colleagues.

[MaxR]

Flightspanner

The Royal Air Force have flying suits.

[tmmorris]

Crab there's a newer film showing what happens to those bits of leg and arm only covered with flying suit vs those bits with long underwear. I saw it at CAM on a visit, most enlightening.

[PlasticCabDriver]

And one from maybe 10/12 years ago that showed what happened to the non-aircrew Soldier 95 when it burned. Wasn't so keen to wear it after that.

[SASless]

Crab,

Having played the Weeny Roast Scene as the Weeny....I can support exactly what you say.

We did not wear Long Johns as they were not even considered but in my case....everywhere there was double or triple Nomex (as in leg pockets for example) I receive fairly minor burns and where there was but a single layer the Burns were more serious. The worst of my burns were above the Knee where the single layer of the Flight Suit was stretched fairly tightly and on my hands after the Nomex/Leather Gloves burned away.

Keeping the Nomex clean and free of dirt, oil, and grease also improves its ability to protect.

My Problem was that I had to stay in the fire as we were airborne and someone had to mind the store.

[Tankertrashnav]

sasless - in Singapore in the late 60s a USAF general who had been in a crash and been badly burned came around to talk to RAF aircrew to push the absolute necessity of having the right clothing and wearing it correctly. In his case he had been wearing his flying gloves turned down and his flying suit rolled back at the wrist to allow some ventilation up his arms.

Result - 100% deep burns on both his wrists, and he very nearly lost one of his hands due to loss of circulation. Some very clever surgery saved his hands and he eventually got back to flying , but with some very impressive scars!

I always remembered that guy before takeoff as I made sure my sleeves were fastened down well over the tops of my gloves. Later on doing some private flying I used to cringe at the sight of guys flying in shorts and tee-shirts.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flightspanner

The Royal Air Force have flying suits.
Actually the only flying suits in the RAF are the cold weather ones. The growbags are properly Coveralls.

[Pontius Navigator]

On fire proof under layers on the late 60s we were issued with the Lyle and Scott cotton long pants and vests for summer use but atrocious wool/nylon ones for winter. Where cottons tended to go baggy the winter ones tended to shrink and were also very itchy.

I guess the acrylan pile thermals would not have been to good as next-to-skin items.

[Mogwi]

I remember being issued with underwear on joining Dartmouth as potential aircrew in 1966. Included were very fetching blue/white gingham "boxer" shorts, which went by the nomenclature "shorts, aircrew, anti-flash". Some blanket-stacker obviously had a sense of humour!

[Wander00]

Acrylan pile bunny suits - so elegant..................bet real fighter pilots did not wear them!

[airborne_artist]

On arrival at RNEFTS at Leeming in March 1979 I was issued with, amongst other things, two pairs of long johns. The date stamp on the label was from 1953. Only six years before I was born :\

I've still got one pair :cool:

[John Eacott]

I remember being issued with underwear on joining Dartmouth as potential aircrew in 1966. Included were very fetching blue/white gingham "boxer" shorts, which went by the nomenclature "shorts, aircrew, anti-flash". Some blanket-stacker obviously had a sense of humour!

And don't forget the string vests: made of string and some sort of webbing shoulder straps :cool:

Re the boxer shorts, they weren't consumable and required to be returned when leaving. I only found one pair and was charged £1.25 for the lost pair; meanwhile I left with my flying grip full of Mk 2A helmet, three baggy green skins, flying boots, many gloves, etc etc :ok:

[Tashengurt]

The acrylan bunny suits seemed to die out in the nineties to be replaced by the knitted version.
I think the bunny suits were often cut down?
Mk 15 coverall was the bigger one for NBC. Jogged my memory.

[Arclite01]

I like the Acrylan tops - they are great for gardening

Arc

[Shackman]

It was the white two piece nylon pile that was incredibly flammable - the green 'bunny suit' seemed to be quite retardant by comparison (we tried them out - sans occupants - one black flag day).
Of note, I still have my two string vests with the webbing shoulder straps - only wore one once for survival exercise on Otterburn and swore never again.

[Hueymeister]

Shack, I cannot imagine (mental picture makes me shudder!) what you are using the string vests for these days...straining your 'veg'??

[Pontius Navigator]

John E, they were Vests, Rachel, Knitted. My skipper always wore his, a nylon AVS on top.

Tash, the original were white two piece only to be washed in Teepol. I wore them on a trip to Goose. I was offered $50 for the top by a Need is but my need was greater than his. But their main use was when I had a fever and the shivers while in bed. Sold them on eBay when they were 40 years old.

Of the green onesie, always wore them on the Shack. For a trip to Iceland I wore the cotton underwear, the Catalan bunnie, then a flying suit, then the goon suit. Toasty warm but couldn't bend my knees to get over the spars.

[Shackman]

PN - Snap! Assymetric was a challenge tho'.
Hueyman - Great in the sun - go with the knotted handkerchief.

[Wander00]

Remember the 70s when girls wore string vests with not lot underneath. Saw a girl in the main drag in Norwich - I was in the car - middle aged couple walking past and he was distracted by girl in the string vest, so distracted he walked into a lamp post, at which point his wife set about him with her hand bag! So funny, I nearly drove into a lamp post.

[John Eacott]

But the vests knitted by Rachel were made of actual real string, something akin to the roughest sisal imaginable. Unwearable for more than 5 nanoseconds without bearing comparison to the proverbial hair shirt.

And the green bunny suit was so hot as to be quite unmanageable under a goon suit, only worn when somewhere north of Norway in mid winter. Although we'd have killed for one during EFT in the Chippie during a Yorkshire winter ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

And the green bunny suit was so hot as to be quite unmanageable under a goon suit, only worn when somewhere north of Norway in mid winter. ;)
Make that Scotland. There was one inescapable feature of the bunny suit is you flew 3 x 10 hour sorties in 5 days. As there was no chance of washing and drying between sorties you can imagine the smell after it had been sealed hermetically in a good suit for 12 hours of more 3 times in a week.

[MSOCS]

Well, you were/are allowed more than one, so you could set up a wash cycle.

[Pontius Navigator]

MSOCS, sheer luxury. One temperate, one winter, two normal flying suits. Three sets of shirts and cottons, but only one set of thermals and flying gloves (often cold and damp).

Those shirts were something else in style and laundering.

[just another jocky]

people moaning about being too hot in cockpits in the summer and wanting to wear T-shirts forget how vital the cotton layer underneath the nomex suit is to prevent burns.

I still wear the roll-neck and long underwear every flight - you only have to see one victim of burns for it to convince you that a little discomfort is much better than a lot of pain and scarring.


Hmmmmm....what about weighing the risk of heat stress affecting decisions in-cockpit vs the risk of encountering fire in the cockpit?


The ac I fly has had no instances of fire in the cockpit (that I am aware of) so the risk is pretty low (though the outcome would be pretty bad if it did). I too have worn the full underwear many times and in a cockpit with no cooling, a large clear canopy likened to a greenhouse by many and flying at low level where the OAT is >20 degrees and the greenhouse is being thoroughly warmed by the sun, I really don't think that your attitude is one I would want to follow.


It is never black vs white, it is almost always shades of grey and good judgement is far better than blanket rules, whether personal or imposed from above, which remove the ability to judge each situation on its merits....something we are supposed to be good at, are trained to do and practice quite a lot.


You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion.

[Pontius Navigator]

JAJ.wimp :) in the meatbox, 39k, depressurised, No 2 trousers, blue shirt and tie under flying suit, ditto 300 ft low level.

Seriously, flown 3 hr low level in Malaysia, cabin temp about 70. We each drank about 4 pints of squash and did not per afterwards. OAT post flight was 35 and we were all shivering. Main criteria was to get the flying suits off, strip off the cottonseed and rejoin the human race.

The short answer is few aircraft/AEA are suitable for climate control and survival.

[Shackman]

JAJ
blanket rules, whether personal or imposed from above

How right you are. Coastal Command/18 Gp rules for flying clothing were fairly relaxed even in the deepest winter - if anything went wrong the only option was ditching as parachute exit was considered too risky. We then went to 11 Gp (fighters) as AEW. Same aircraft, different role, different rules. Parachutes had to be available so all the safety eqpt that went with them had to be worn. At one time because the sea temp was below +10 we were all in goon suits etc, but the OAT was in the high 20's and cockpit in the high 30's/40's. Thermal stress was extreme, and sorties were curtailed. However, our lords and masters insisted even with people reporting sick at the end of sorties!

(When invited to try the suggested parachute exit - which was right in front of the radome - a very experienced para instructor refused point blank with quite colourful language)

[BEagle]

Remember the 70s when girls wore string vests with not a lot underneath?

Indeed I do! They even allowed such things on TV - this is from 'UFO':

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/UFO_20_zpswghv48cx.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/UFO_20_zpswghv48cx.jpg.html)

Somehow I can't see the politically-correct, diversity-aware meeja fag-hags of today allowing such utter delights, very regrettably...:uhoh:

[John Eacott]

At one time because the sea temp was below +10 we were all in goon suits etc, but the OAT was in the high 20's and cockpit in the high 30's/40's. Thermal stress was extreme, and sorties were curtailed. However, our lords and masters insisted even with people reporting sicj at the end of sorties!

Compare the discomfort for the Fleet Air Arm, where the RN rules for goon suits was sea temps below +15C. A few weeks in summer off Cornwall, or during a Far East or Mediterranean cruise were the only opportunities for baggy green skins, so all the talk here of bunny suits under flying ovies are from a different world :p

[chopper2004]

Indeed I do! They even allowed such things on TV - this is from 'UFO':

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/UFO_20_zpswghv48cx.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/UFO_20_zpswghv48cx.jpg.html)

Somehow I can't see the politically-correct, diversity-aware meeja fag-hags of today allowing such utter delights, very regrettably...:uhoh:
True you would get strung up for it :P :P however in this current climate of PC World and sensitivity this would be more appropriate :P

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger155/hqdefault_zpsvrcphbvj.jpg

Tech question how come our grow bags did not have the velcro cover for the sleeve pen pocket? I would have thought especially during FJ ops would not want pens dropping everywhere in cockpit

cheers

[Wander00]

I prefer the upper pic.............probably my age

[John Eacott]

And you learn something every day: apparently the string vest was thought of as an escape aid, using the string to create a rope 'to aid escape'. Never heard of that before!

http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/upload/images/shopprod/14076/raf-s-o-e-escape-string-vest_14076_main_size2.jpg

[Shackman]

And a fishing net (did you try making one out of para cord iaw survival training - took ages).

[Pontius Navigator]

Shackman, I also remember the instructions on skinning your deer, stretching it over a wooden frame, flensing, then curing it using the brains.

Lots of survival activities were, IMHO, job creation and occupational therapy.

Shackman, I expect you are the same generation that will remember the SARAH drills, calculate distance from dinghy to Ballykelly, calculate transit time, add 90 minutes for launch. Switch on SARAH at calculated time. Switch off after dark unless you heard search area IIRC.

[just another jocky]

JAJ.wimp http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif in the meatbox, 39k, depressurised, No 2 trousers, blue shirt and tie under flying suit, ditto 300 ft low level.

Seriously, flown 3 hr low level in Malaysia, cabin temp about 70. We each drank about 4 pints of squash and did not per afterwards. OAT post flight was 35 and we were all shivering. Main criteria was to get the flying suits off, strip off the cottonseed and rejoin the human race.

The short answer is few aircraft/AEA are suitable for climate control and survival.


Most modern aircraft have air conditioning, it's only the cheap end of aircraft design that have the issue; a hole in the front leading to a hole in the cockpit is all you get with hot air outside being ducted onto you.


Inflexible rules forcing folk to get overly heated....it's not big and it's not clever.


War stories eh? GW1 and a few years afterwards, the Mighty Fin could manage no more than 10 minutes on the ground with air con ON. Factor in around 30 mins to start up with canopy down throughout, another 15-20 to taxi (big airfields, again with canopy down) then a possible wait to get airborne and in the undiluted sun and 50+ degree C OAT, one was a tad sweaty before one got airborne!

[Wander00]

Not a lot changed from the cold air unit in the B Mk 2 Canberra

[Pontius Navigator]

JAJ, I was only joking. At least the tents were a big improvement over the Canberra' s bonnet.

BTW we took part in the liquid cooled suits for the Tonka. The suit was tight fitting woven nylon. You had to carry a portable cooling pack from the time of donning until plugging in to the aircraft. There were some
evolutions that were impossible while carrying the handbag or moving around the cabin. Had you had to bail out, stripping off the suit on landing would have been the first priority. I have no idea how it would fare in water. Of course it never came in to Service.

[just another jocky]

JAJ, I was only joking.


I know. :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

I bet FlyingSpanner wished he hadn't asked

[Stitchbitch]

Merlin crews had liquid cooled underwear for the sandpit, they were okay until the cooling pack broke down... Also seem to remember looking after a cooling vest on the wonder jet, like the inflateable socks I don't recall pilots ever using them..

[Flyingspanner83]

On the contrary... This thread has been fantastic! Thanks for all the info. FYI I ended up with a new, old stock mk14A.

[just another jocky]

Does anybody like the new American-style suits?

[John Eacott]

I think the last non-nomex flying suit was the Mk 7 lightweight suit for tropical climes. I had 2 in FEAF - they were great as no matter how much you perspired, as soon as you landed it was straight under the shower and then leave it on the hangar in the locker room and it was dry in next to no time.

Looking in my 'collection', the Mk 10 was my lightweight suit and is (for Nomex) a very thin fabric. Whereas my Mk 11 is the winter-weight and very definitely Nomex, so I'd be fascinated to know what the Mk 10 is actually made of.

Anyone?

Yes, sad how much still clutters up the spare wardrobes :eek:

[Pure Pursuit]

Does anybody like the new American-style suits?

They are far more effective in terms of fire protection, being made from a higher quality material than the last issue. The neck area is offered much more protection. No issues wearing them in the UK at all.

That said, they are dreadful in hot climates with no sign of a thinner, desert variant on the horizon.

[BEagle]

My original 1968-issue 'Suits, Flying, Mk9' is a heavy grade grey (cotton?) item, whereas my final 'Coverall Aircrew Mk14A' is NATO green and is (I think) made from Nomex?

But why is it that they've shrunk so much after being stuffed into a wardrobe for several years?

[beamer]

Strange, my one remaining green bag seems a little tighter around the waist than it used to.......

[WIDN62]

Have you noticed that flying boots and footwear in general don't shrink as much as other clothing in the wardrobe?

[esa-aardvark]

Seeing this thread made me realise I still have my
"suit flying mk7a lightweight". Any interest to
anyone ? Pity to dispose of it.

[Pontius Navigator]

ESA, short answer yes.

EBay would certainly shift it. All my stuff went that way except I kept the flying suits. Threw a green one, circa 1990 away a couple of months back. The extra padding with the thigh pockets certainly work when the chain saw touched them.

Got a new 16 on eBay, great for diy and gardening shoving tools in etc.