A RAAF Mirage wheels up landing story worth reading

[Centaurus]

This remarkable story by former RAAF Mirage pilot, Nick Ford, has a flight safety lesson for all pilots -airline and general aviation - in that it is all too easy to forget to lower your landing gear when various disconcerting factors build up to affect the pilot's train of thought at a critical time.

Nick Ford did a beautifully smooth wheels up landing on Melbourne Runway 34 into 30 knot plus head wind component. His story of this landing was published by the Queensland Air Museum.

QAM - The Last Landing of Mirage A3-16 (http://www.qam.com.au/qam-content/aircraft/mirage/wheels-up.htm)

[Stanwell]

Fascinating. Thanks for that, Centaurus.
A "Redress of Grievance" that was accepted. Somewhat unusual from what I'd heard.

[le Pingouin]

Lessons for controllers too - impact of controller input on pilot workload, expectation bias, keeping the pilot in the loop.

[TBM-Legend]

Scrape and go in an F-4 at AMB as well...

[olm8tyrone]

An interesting read. I was a bit surprised at how long it took him to realize he did a wheels up.

[MPN11]

A very interesting read - thanks for posting.

[40years]

Interesting how memory can play tricks. I'm pretty sure that 250 below 10 wasn't mandated in Oz until much later after this event. Also much of the initial controlling would have been by RAAF controllers, who had their own airspace in those days ( the wedge containing Laverton, Avalon and beyond to the southwest and above F190 within 40NM Melbourne). I doubt also the practice of a full rectangular circuit every time. The light aircraft lane still exists and doesn't seem to bother the many 34 arrivals.

[cattletruck]

A thoroughly enjoyable read that illustrates just how such incidents can happen.

I sense that the author still harbours a bit of guilt for supposedly being responsible for writing off a Mirage. If only he knew that the reason we ended up with the Mirages was because it was the only way the French could balance the trade for $150m of wheat which they owed us. Writing off the Mirage by its makers would have meant wiping off another few million on a replacement.

[fujii]

The light aircraft lane still exists and doesn't seem to bother the many 34 arrivals.

Well actually it doesn't. The lane was a narrow corridor between the Melbourne and Laverton control zones. When Laverton closed, the lane went. Check the Melbourne VTC. ML RWY 34 arrivals are protected by the CTA steps.

[recceguy]

" operating within 50 nm of Tullamarine, and below 10,000 feet, CAA required all aircraft to fly under 250 knots to help air traffic controllers manage aircraft movements "

What a bunch of turists ! who was in charge ? is the AF in that country in a position of submission in front of civilian ATC ?

" by flying below 250 knots the undercarriage warning light was on most of the time and, after a very short time of operating out of Avalon, Mirage pilots learnt to ignore it. In my accident flight, shortly after take-off when I cut the afterburner and pulled back power to stay below 250 knots, the undercarriage warning light came on and probably remained flashing for the whole of my sortie. I don’t know for sure because, like all other Mirage pilots operating in Melbourne, I had learnt to ignore this warning light."

Incredible !

Also how many times does it say "the French tale" ? because obviously the French had to be blamed for that.... trying to find an excuse maybe ?
Having been a Mirage III pilot for years, I'm more than confused about what he has been writing down. What he says about the way RAAF and Armée de l'air were supposed to land the aircraft differently is complete BS.
Many years ago Singapore had some Israeli pilots in exchange. After a couple of DACT with the RAAF Mirages of Butterworth (Penang, for those who don't remember) they were completely astonished by their performance - in a bad way.

[Stanwell]

Most interesting, recceguy.
If you've got a spare moment, would you care to expand on that last bit about the DACT exercises?

[TowerDog]

Ouch. Must be rough for a Right Stuff ego to make a student pilot mistake.
There is always a bunch of other factors to use for diluting the blame, ATC would be a good one.

If I was the Mirage driver I would have kept a low profile and chalked it up to bad luck or a bad day instead of writing a 3 page essay. :sad:

[40years]

fujii: As I said, "Interesting how memory can play tricks"
Even I can get things wrong.
I stand by the fact that there was no 250 below 10 at that time. As for the rest?

[Centaurus]

Further to my OP. In the late Sixties I was a QFI at 34 Squadron on Viscounts among other types. There was a HQ Operations Command flight safety conference to be held at Williamtown and I was required to attend.

Rang up the then CO of the Mirage unit at Williamtown who was on our initial aircrew intake course at Point Cook many years earlier. Jim Treadwell, a lovely bloke.

"Hey Jim - Centaurus here. I'm flying to Willy for the OPCOM flight safety conference next week. I'll give you a couple of circuits in the Viscount if you can give me a ride in the dual Mirage." Jim was happy with that plan and I duly arrived in the 34 Squadron Viscount which we used as a taxi hack under the guise of continuation training.

Jim was the pilot of the Mirage and I was strapped into the back seat. I felt immediate claustrophobia as an airman fastened numerous restraining straps around my body and legs and by then I almost elected to stop the airman and say I want to get out of here now.

Jim was in the front seat and I didn't want to embarrass him so I stayed. When Jim then briefed me about various red warning light scenarios requiring immediate ejection, I was quite frankly really scared and deeply regretted my gung-ho phone call to Jim about swopping a Viscount ride for a Mirage ride.

We got airborne and eventually went through the sound barrier for a few seconds with Jim kindly letting me fly through Mach One so I could boast about it once safely on the ground.

He then joined for a PFL (practice forced landing) from around 20,000 ft over Williamtown. I asked him over the intercom what was his planned over the fence speed for the PFL. He said we never land from a PFL but go around from around 500 feet (if my memory is correct) due high sink rate and engine spool up time.

I think we turned base around 9000 ft and remember there were no flaps on a Mirage. I think speed on final was around 180 knots and I couldn't see much from the back seat. As I said, I was tightly strapped in and feeling apprehensive about the whole thing. Jim went around as briefed, and then went back for an initial from five miles, savage break left into downwind and landed smoothly on the piano keys, much to my relief.

There was an immediate harsh deceleration after touch down and I thought Jim must have really stamped on the anchors. Not so, as it turned out. It was the drag chute operating and all I can say from memory it was like max manual braking on a 737. Jim had not started to touch the brakes yet.

After the trip I couldn't get out of the cockpit fast enough and thanked Jim for the unforgettable (to me, anyway) ride. After lunch I pre-flighted the Viscount to give Jim some circuits. But he was too busy organising the flight safety conference to accept; which was a real pity. After that little episode I had great admiration for Mirage pilots which I still have to this day. Thanks a million Jimmy Treadwell. I understand you are still around. :ok:

[Hempy]

I am somewhat disappointed. I was led to believe that the firies covered that thing with so much foam that the only thing recognisable was the fin.

The Mirage was a death trap tbh. Australia purchased 115 aircraft, 39 crashed, 22 ejections, 20 pilots injured and 14 pilots killed.

[gerry111]

Yes, The best hour of my life was in the back seat of 77 Sqn's A3-116 on 24th January 1980. An engine air test flying up to 46,000' and through Mach 1. Then low level aerobatics in the Myall Lakes area including beating up unsuspecting water skiers..

A "forced landing" practice at Williamtown was joining circuit at 12,500' which was perfect for 190kts over the piano keys.. Brilliant fun! :D

recceguy, I'd be interested in reading more information from you. I was at 3 Sqn Butterworth between 1981 and 1983 and did many trips to RSAF Tengah during that time. RSAF had Hawker Hunters and F5Es there and then. The RAAF Mirages simply had a massive advantage over them flying dissimilar air combat tactics (DACT).

[Tee Emm]

I am somewhat disappointed. I was led to believe that the firies covered that thing with so much foam that the only thing recognisable was the fin.

The wet surface in the photo was probably the foam that had already dissipated:E

[gerry111]

Australia purchased 116 Mirages; 100 singles and 16 duals. 43 aircraft were lost to attrition.

Whilst 14 pilots were very sadly killed, at least 7 others went on to clock up more than 3000 hours in them.

[Flingwing47]

He realised when it took full power to taxi :)

[601]

a "fool proof" system to prevent unintentional wheels-up landings
BUMPF............

[Band a Lot]

Fool Proof System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7Lu6LEQ0zo

[Fris B. Fairing]

Quote:
a "fool proof" system to prevent unintentional wheels-up landings


BUMPF............

Talk about taking things out of context. Have you read the article?

[zzuf]

I flew ARDU Mirages, amongst other types, from Avalon in the early '70's. Don't recall ever being speed restricted.
Tulla was being built during part of that time, but I recall doing a PFL (Mirage) shortly after it opened. A Mirage PFL included best glide speed about 300kt, slowing to gear extension speed 240kt then accelerating to max speed gear down, 270kt, IIRC. The time taken for clearances was such that I never bothered again. Certainly didn't practice diversions to Tulla in any of the 7 aircraft types I flew there.

[zzuf]

Centaurus, Jimmy the Tread, natures gentleman and great entertainment at dining in nights. Served with him, 3Sqn, Sabres, Butterworth, mid '60's.
Regarding your Mirage pax ride, I had never thought much about the sort of experience it was for those accustomed to more gentile aircraft types.
Looking back, being in the circuit in a Mirage could be a fairly unnerving experience.
From early downwind there was heavy airframe buffet which intensified as the speed was reduced around base turn. Base turn was 60 degrees AOB, could be more if one underestimated the wind - in this case it may be necessary to light the afterburner just to maintain base speed. The airconditioning was always noisy, but in the circuit this was drowned out by all sorts of intake noises from rapidly changing airflow noises to the loud bangs as the auxulliary air intakes cycled. Great fun, wouldn't have missed it for the world.

[Capn Bloggs]

From early downwind there was heavy airframe buffet which intensified as the speed was reduced around base turn. Base turn was 60 degrees AOB, could be more if one underestimated the wind - in this case it may be necessary to light the afterburner just to maintain base speed. The airconditioning was always noisy, but in the circuit this was drowned out by all sorts of intake noises from rapidly changing airflow noises to the loud bangs as the auxulliary air intakes cycled. Great fun, wouldn't have missed it for the world.
Geez zzuf, that's a bit wild! The colour purple and blue smoke come to mind! ;) :D

[601]

Talk about taking things out of context. Have you read the article?

Sure I did read the article, with some amazement.

No matter how complex the aircraft, for over 30 years BUMPF was the last check I did to myself.

[Fris B. Fairing]

601

Apologies. We were at crossed purposes. The mnemonic hadn't registered!

[B2N2]

French land with a positive descent rate which can be as high as 200 feet per minute

How is that high?

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

How is that high?

It's not, really. I think he might've got the wrong end the stick for some reason, when it comes to touchdown RODs.
A proper no-flare carrier-style landing's going to be a good 700+ fpm. When he talks about the 'devastating' effects of a 50 fpm touchdown - well, that's less than a foot per second. I'd be thrilled if I could manage that all the time. Good article otherwise though.

Still not sure where all the stress about 250 below ten thousand is coming from. In my time (somewhat later) we never considered it applicable to military fast jets.

[donpizmeov]

360 feet per minute causes the need for a heavy landing inspection on a scarebus. 200 feet per minute is pretty firm. When doing zero flight time in the sim, extra practice would be required if you were to thump them in at that rate (sim panel shows distance from threshold, centre line and ROD at touchdown).
Have checked the on board CMS after a firm landing and have seen 150 to 190 feet per min, not sure how accurate that is though.

Was lucky enough to have a few back seat rides in the miracle. Hats off to those who flew them, as I was still at the departure threshold at mission end.

[ACMS]

donpizmeov---not quite as simple as 360 fpm. Depends on the side loads and Airbus have a algorithm to work it out......

[recceguy]

First I do agree with Tower Dog - after such a mishap, no real need for a 3-pages essay where you create more questions than excuses. Interestingly, did he keep his position after such an event ? In my Air Force, in such a case (where by the way there had been no malign intent or intentional breach of orders) it was a couple of months still in the squadron, then... surprise, an assignment to fly single-prop trainers somewhere (or the right seat of a transport heavy - thus making your life easier in the future to join the airlines ! Always can find a good thing from a bad thing )
For those who flew at Butterworth, there was no sarcasm intended. Those comments had been reported to me by a RSAF F5 pilot, who had been hearing that from an Israeli exchange pilot. You cannot judge an entire Air Force by a one-day DACT (even if everybody has been doing it, either US, French, Germans, Belgians, Italians...) - maybe it was a young pilot, or a bad day for another one, who knows ?
I got my first OPS qualifications on the Mirage III before converting to other types more modern and with better flying qualities. Like the F104, it was an airframe designed at the end of the 50s, with Mach 2 in mind and zoom intercept of high-level Soviat bombers. Coming back to land was a little bit of stress during the first 200 hrs (I logged 700+hrs on it)
Every time I had back-seaters who were not familiar with the type I didn't try to impress or scare them, instead I used to put them in confidence to enjoy the ride. Much too easy to make the guy (or the lady) puke to come back and say "how strong are those guys!" Too easy.

[601]

Apologies. We were at crossed purposes. The mnemonic hadn't registered!
................. :)

[Hempy]

200 f/min = approx 3.6 km/h. Ouch!

[zzuf]

Transport aircraft structural design standards for landing:
Maximum landing weight: 10 ft/second,
Maximum take-off weight: 6 ft/second,
Landing attitude close to most critical for structural damage.

[Hempy]

10 ft/sec = 600 ft/min

[Capn Bloggs]

Those comments had been reported to me by a RSAF F5 pilot, who had been hearing that from an Israeli exchange pilot.
Keep at it, Ace.

Coming back to land was a little bit of stress during the first 200 hrs (I logged 700+hrs on it)
Let's not get carried away...

Interestingly, did he keep his position after such an event?
Yep. But then, the RAAF didn't give you a medal every time you got back safely... :ok:

[Ascend Charlie]

His Daddy, Air Commodore Ford, shook his head and said "He was normally the reliable son." (There was another son)

[ruprecht]

For zzuf and Ascend Charlie.

http://75.raafphoto.com/show.php?size=800x800&album_name=%2FKnuck_At_Butterworth%2F&obj_name=KnucksAtButterworth.jpg

[Capn Bloggs]

Priceless! :D

[FlexibleResponse]

ruprecht,

Yep that photo encapsulates pretty much all the original team with some many more notables following.

PFL...

15,000 overhead at 300 kts pointing towards base.
10,000 at base slowing to 240 for gear extension. Accel to 270 kts once gear doors were closed.
5000 on final at 270 kts.
1500 feet short final (1nm) at 270 kts commence flare.
Wipe off 100ks during the flare and land at 170kts.

Made the Space Shuttle look like child's play.

[gerry111]

I strapped in a few of those guys. Good times!:)

[Clinton McKenzie]

First Mirage ride was with Oggie Worth - he was then OC Butterworth. Second ride was with Gus Larard. I think Dave Bowden was my CO at 75SQN at the time. (Can't remember when the change of COs happened when I was at 75SQN.) Tex Watson was OC Richmond when I was posted back to 2AD. The items on the wall at my man cave also include Reg Meissner's memorial AIP cover.

Great times....

[zzuf]

Bugga all those guys having fun in Mirages while I was training bloggs on Vampires/Macchis!
Still my turn came later, added English Electric Lightning to the go fast list!

[Minnie Burner]

Can't work out what's under the pitot. Looks like an IFR probe (surely not, on a gravity refuelled airplane!)
Oh, is it one of those TP-style data probes??

[Capn Bloggs]

I was training bloggs on Vampires/!
I'm not that old!! :ouch: :)

[Fris B. Fairing]

Can't work out what's under the pitot.

It's said to be a flight path accelerometer probe. More photos and a full history:

Here (http://www.qam.com.au/qam-content/aircraft/mirage/A3-16.htm)

[Minnie Burner]

Thanks, Fris.
The light starts to shine!
Also explains what the Greek or German Air Force were doing flying the jet! Doh!
Must be the place where they're converted to right-hand drive, right?

[zzuf]

The probe was known as the "gust pobe".
IIRC the aircraft was used for high speed (600kts) low level flights through areas of high mechanical turbulence. This was an Aeronautical Research Laboratories project to measure gust shapes in the real world cf that used in aircraft design.
I do recall one pilot got a 6g bump - pretty impressive considering the low slope of the Cl/Alpha curve of the Mirage.

[Minnie Burner]

Why was it accepted as "a requirement" to fly at 250kts?
"Sorry mate, minimum speed 300kts." would have realigned the Swiss cheese on day one.

[Pinky the pilot]

Re the photo; Tony Ford (back row left) was my CPL Flight test(s) examiner.

[gerry111]

Perhaps you should have joined the RAAF, Pinky?

Free pilot training and you might have flown some seriously fast metal! :D

[megan]

Tony Ford (back row left) was my CPL Flight test(s) examinerAnd Trevor Thomas was our milkmans son. Anyone know where he ended up? Last saw him when he had something to do with running the Avalon airshows.

[Centaurus]

1500 feet short final (1nm) at 270 kts commence flare.
Wipe off 100ks during the flare and land at 170kts.


Wipe of 100 knots in what is probably a five second flare? 270 knots commence flare at one mile before the threshold? Slight exaggeration maybe?

[mattyj]

So what happened to Nick? Did he go on to have a successful RAAF career or did he have to do penance at a desk or in Townsville or Darwin running logistics or something awful?

[Capn Bloggs]

have a successful RAAF career or did he have to do penance at a desk or in Townsville or Darwin running logistics or something awful?
That was a successful career in the RAAF! Penance in TVL, DRW or CBR, all the same! :O

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Wipe of 100 knots in what is probably a five second flare? 270 knots commence flare at one mile before the threshold? Slight exaggeration maybe?

I never flew it, but losing 20kt per second in a low aspect ratio jet on the back side of the drag curve is well within the bounds of possibility.

[Capn Bloggs]

Wipe of 100 knots in what is probably a five second flare? 270 knots commence flare at one mile before the threshold? Slight exaggeration maybe?
Not at all, Centaurus. You aimed well short of the threshold, diving at the dirt and then flared. So the "flare" was actually quite a long time.

[megan]

A-4, but might give some guidance Centaurus.

The aircraft is on final approach when lined up with the landing runway. Optimum conditions are 1000 feet AGL, 2000 to 3000 feet of straight-way, and 180 KIAS. If high, altitude should be lost by nosing over slightly permitting airspeed to increase. Minimum airspeed on final is 170 KIAS. If excessive airspeed exists on final (over 200 KlAS), manual speedbrake extension is effective in reducing airspeed. Speedbrakes should be used only if excessive airspeed exists and landing on the runway is ensured.

FLARE. The flare should be commenced 200 to 300 feet above the runway at 180 KlAS. THIS IS A CRITICAL PHASE OF THE APPROACH AND REQUIRES OPTIMUM PILOT TECHNIQUE. A sequence of minor nose rotations to produce a series of slight reductions in rate of descent (step effect) allows time for constant appraisal of the flare at each incremental position and provides a satisfactory means for effecting a smooth landing. Airspeed dissipates
very rapidly (power off) during the flare.

LANDING. Optimum touchdown speed is 140 to 150 KIAS. Approximately 5000 feet of runway will be required for stopping at these airspeeds. Airspeeds below 140 KlAS should be avoided to prevent a hard landing. A safe landing can be accomplished at touchdown airspeeds as high as 180 KIAS if sufficient runway remains.

Lack of sufficient airspeed to stop the steep rate of descent may not only result in an unsafe landing but may also preclude safe ejection.Means a loss of 30 to 40 knots in the flare.

[john_tullamarine]

.. but losing 20kt per second

Only ever had the one backseat ride. The ASI change during a demo clean max rate roll was in the order of 100kts as I recall .. the ASI certainly was an agile device compared to what a chap might have been used to .. the roll rate must have been in the order of 400 deg/sec or higher.

[megan]

From the horses mouth, well, the RAAF Mirage flight manualFLAMEOUT LANDING
Due to the extremely high sink rate and the high approach speed required, good conditions and a high degree of pilot skill and currency are needed to successfully complete a flameout landing. A flameout landing should only be attempted on an airfield fully equipped for normal Mirage operations. If such an airfield is not available or if the pilot is not completely confident of his ability to complete the forced landing, he should point the aircraft towards a clear area and eject.

The flameout key points are;

High Key Point: 15,000 over the upwnd end of the runway, heading 135° or 225° relative to the duty runway centreline

Low Key Point: 1 NM abeam of the runway threshold at 10,000 ft, heading 180° relative to landing direction

5000 ft Key Point: Middle of final turn. The final turn is a constant turn with 30° to 45° of bank. The desired touch down point is about one third of the way down the runway. The pilot should maintain the aircraft flight path towards the threshold while holding between 240 and 270 KIAS. The action of flaring the aircraft, transfers the final touchdown point further down the runway.

WARNING: If a successful forced landing is not assured by the 5,000 ft key point, the pilot should point the aircraft towards a clear area, arrest the rate of descent and eject.

Note: If the desired flight path cannot be maintained while holding a minimum of 240 KIAS, an undershoot situation is developing.

Speed: Regardless of the aircraft configuration, maintain 240 to 270 KIAS throughout the pattern, from high key point down to flare out. If on late final the IAS decreases, do not try to re-establish speed because the aircraft will probably reach a steep nose down attitude without increasing IAS and it may be impossible to perform a precise flare out.

Undercarriage Extension: Lower the U/C on reaching a key point. It takes 20 seconds for the U/C to extend when the engine is windmilling.

WARNING: The limit for U/C extension is the 5,000 ft key point.

Landing: It is important to maintain an IAS of 240 kn until flare out (400 – 500 ft AGL). If flare out is initiated with an IAS lower than 220 kn, or at too low an altitude, it is difficult to check the rate of descent which is about 8,500 ft/min and the U/C may be damaged upon landing.

The desired touch down point is one third of the way down the runway.

[Hempy]

^ Google expert! At least you used quotation marks this time.

[megan]

You really are an ass Hempy. Actually no, came from the local museums library smart ass.

[Capn Bloggs]

I'm impressed that a library would hold such a document. Well researched, Megan! :D And written in proper Aussie English (Watto?), not some French translation...

Yes Hempy, pull ya head in, those words are nowhere to be found on the (Google) net, apart from Megan's post.

[Judd]

I get a little confused by the terminology when reading about the flare manoeuvre as applied to the Mirage forced landing pattern. One writer says you lose 100 knots in the flare. But does the writer actually mean you lose 100 knots in the flare and including the subsequent few seconds of hold-off which naturally occurs with most aircraft before actual touch-down?

[megan]

I'm impressed that a library would hold such a documentCapn Bloggs, I live about 2 clicks from a RAAF base that operated the Miracle, and they even have a complete airframe in rather pristine condition. Being the ex SO to the Commanding Officer of a particular air arm gains entrance as well, where others might not.

Judd, you can see the approach is flown at 270, and touchdown is at about 170, so yes you lose 100 k in the flare. Not flown jets myself, but I'm sure Capn Bloggs would confirm that speed is life. Speed is energy, and energy is what you need to arrest that horrendous sink rate. If you fluff the approach you'll need that energy to arrest the descent so as the ejection seat will be within parameters, if nothing else. I'd guess that would be one chart that was paid particular attention to.

[TowerDog]

8,500 feet per minute....?
That is falling, not flying.
Jeez.

[Capn Bloggs]

Judd, it's just a "stretched-out" flare, but otherwise similar to a normal aeroplane (perhaps not a Cesspit); no hold-off, just a gradual (positive!) reduction in the rate of descent from 500ft down to touchdown. There was a reasonable amount of fat to adjust the touchdown point, a bit like sideslipping. High? Lower the nose a bit, speed doesn't increase much because of the drag. You could also stretch the glide to a certain extent.

That is all well and good, but the message to the new bograts was... never get yourself overhead the aerodrome at 15,000ft. Then you'll never have to do a forced landing! :ok:

[zzuf]

No, in my experience it was not like a "stretched out" flare. I guess your experience was somewhat different! The Mirage, at those speeds had lots of drag and you could increase the drag hugely with just a tweek on the stick - just roll to 60 degrees AOB pull a bit, roll to 60 in the other direction and repeat - knock off 100 knots easily. It needed a lot of energy to flare from that ROD and bleeding it off slowly would not end well.
On finals the rate of descent was so high that it was easy to identify the centre of the expanding circle of ground where the extended flight path was pointed. If that wasn't on the runway, i.e.. short, then you weren't going to make it.
When operating below about 300kts you operated the stick and throttle simultaneously, 180 degrees out of phase - pull back stick, push throttle forward
On the other hand Gary Cooper did a successful real forced landing just after takeoff at Willy on a disused old runway that most of us didn't know existed. Somewhere near Dutson I think.

[RAC/OPS]

So how does the ROZAF get on in other parts of the world where a "check wheels" isn't a required part of the landing clearance?

[john_tullamarine]

Somewhere near Dutson I think

Tomago .. http://www.speedwayandroadracehistory.com/sydney-tomago-airstrip-circuit.html

I was a high school student at Cessnock at the time and recall the incident's being reported in the local media.

Small world C., .. Dutson is not far from where I live in Gippsland.

[zzuf]

Ahh JT IIRC and I demonstrably don't, It is the red wine. Avoid it at all costs - unless you enjoy it. Nowadays much better than flying. Trust you're well. I am in ML for a few days are you in the area?

[zzuf]

JT just thought of an excuse - through a gunsight ranges appear remarkably similar.

[Hempy]

Yes Hempy, pull ya head in, those words are nowhere to be found on the (Google) net, apart from Megan's post.

Who (other than you) mentioned the '(Google) net'?

I certainly didn't.

My post was in relation to quotation marks. Posting history will reveal a certain 'lack of'.

In the academic world it's known as 'plagiarism'. In onetracks defense I'm happy to assume that it's ignorance rather than blatant copy'n'paste.

Feel free to pull your own head in unless you are incapable of comprehension.

In which case, carry on.

[Monarch Man]

A much more sedate affair in my old mount, even my students didn't get scared!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hMtCrODMdo

[Capn Bloggs]

Hempy, at the risk of derailing an otherwise informative and fun thread, your post
^ Google expert! At least you used quotation marks this time.
was right below Megan's (not onetrack, who you mentioned later) post which quoted the Mirage Flight Manual, indicating your comment was directed at Megan. The quote could not have been from a Google search. As for plagiarism, he put it in quotes. That's not plagiarism.

ZZUF, the mirage was nowhere near as bad as you make out. It was a French Lady, after all. :ok:

[megan]

Capn Bloggs, you'll have to excuse Hempy, he lives in cloud cuckoo land.
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."

[john_tullamarine]

Avoid it at all costs - unless you enjoy it

Good Lord, sir ... if it weren't for the demon Port and similar libations, I daresay that I would be teetotal .. well do I recall, many decades ago, being introduced to Galway Pipe on a sailing weekend down at Metung .. nectar of the Gods. Mind you the walking distance from the pub BACK to the marina later in the evening was considerably further than that logged earlier FROM the boat to the pub ..

I am in ML for a few days are you in the area?

Bugga, been in town all day today .. just got home .. would have enjoyed a catchup. Maybe better luck with the planning next time either this side or the other of the island.

through a gunsight ranges appear remarkably similar.

Not having had the pleasure I can only imagine .. however, no dishonour, I suggest.

[gerry111]

megan, A3-100 perhaps? :)

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Just for interest. One who didn't ignore the big red flashing light. Taken from Melbourne Tower, early 80's.

http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm327/andylitt/IMG_20160906_0001.jpg

[recceguy]

For us in the 80s the flame-out pattern in the Mirage III was just a text-book exercise, which we knew and had been told, that it would have been very unlikely to be in a situation to perform it. It would have been the consequence of an unrecoverable flame-out, from a combat exercise which for that would have been taking place in the immediate vicinity of the airfield, at a very high altitude (possible in some places in the world anyway)
So I think we just did it once or twice, then forgot it as it was a waste of time and fuel. Those patterns were coming from the 50s, for other aircraft with unreliable single engines and better gliding capabilities .... I remember flying those patterns in Hunters, or even Hawks, with the help of very professional ATC, and yes, then the exercise had sense, we were starting it 30 Nm from the field if I do remember.



http://www.airliners.net/photo/Switzerland-Air-Force/Dassault-%28FW-Emmen%29-Mirage-IIIRS/2743599

[rjtjrt]

Hawk demo on Youtube

https://youtu.be/5hMtCrODMdo

F-16 actual

https://youtu.be/A0DdpC7GV3A

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

I'm pretty sure more airframes (and lives) have been lost practising for engine failures in the Hawk, than have ever been saved through successful flameout landings with genuine engine failures. Food for thought.

[Capn Bloggs]

Flameout TACANs in the Macchi were fun. IIRC, descend at 250KIAS IMC around the 5DME arc, then when at the minimum, turn in, point at the field and force-lob from Base.

[megan]

MEMORANDUM
To: All Mirage Aircrew
Subject: Recruitment. Are any of the attached regarded as suitable candidates.

[FlexibleResponse]

megan: private message awaits you...

[ramble on]

That looks like an out-take from the making of the 1960s Magnicent Seven...

Can you give us names or not?

[megan]

ramble on, the original resides in my filing cabinet, but you'll find a copy/details here. Brother (in the hat), was a photographer by trade, and had the shot taken by another. Taken late 1963. Carola went on to become a very experienced MU-2 driver. Is a blog spot link, so you'll have to insert that where the ***** show.

http://skydivinghistory.********.com.au/2010/11/such-is-life.html

[megan]

megan: private message awaits you... Nothing received, you'll have to resend.