Repatriation to Poland

[air pig]

Today at Northolt.

Safe journey and God speed and thank you Sir.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/heros-send-off-at-raf-northolt-for-polish-ww2-fighter-ace-26082016

[Wander00]

DCO - Well done, Nortolt

[octavian]

Let us never forget what gallant allies we had, and still have, in the Polish people, both here in the UK and in Poland.

[MPN11]

A happy story, in a strange way.

My OH was once OC Admin at Northolt, and was thus deeply involved with the various events involving the surviving Polish guys and their annual ceremony at the Polish War Memorial by the A40 at Northolt.

A most amazing bunch of people ... incredibly vibrant, despite their advanced years. I was always worried when she went off to one of their event, but she always came back home ... usually carrying a large bunch of flowers.

"We will remember them"

"Będziemy o nich pamiętać"

[Herod]

At last; RIP Sir.

[clunckdriver]

The bravest of the brave, the world owes the Poles a huge debt, from making sure the Battle of Britain came out the way it did, to their huge contribution to the allies intelligence information, to their bravery and determination during the war, only to be betrayed by the very nations they fought for. This tribute is long overdue, but more than richly deserved!

[air pig]

Clunkdriver:

As well as being incredibly brave military people, the Poles also broke Enigma before the French or British.

[Hempy]

When I saw a teenager there was a little old Polish guy who would join our group playing snooker at the RSL Club on a Thursday nignt.

He had some stories. He was groundcrew (fitter) with a Night Fighter Sqn flying from places like the Isle of Man. Lovely old bloke.

He was always very grateful to the British and Commonwealth for taking a stance against the Germans, scornful of the Americans, and still hated everything German with vehemence. After a couple of beers he'd fire up and start swearing in Polish. Funny!

[Chugalug2]

A previous thread re the Poles in the WW2 RAF allowed me to tell the tale of one who wasn't in the Battle of Britain but rather in the Battle of Germany:-
As a very wet behind the ears Hastings Co-Pilot I was posted to 48 Squadron, RAF Changi, 1963/66. One of the navigators there was a larger than life Pole, Victor Fontes. Victor had been a cavalry officer when the Nazis invaded and overran his homeland. Somehow he survived charging German tanks for a living and, with a great many other Polish troops, escaped south via Romania to the Black Sea. There they embarked on troopships to hazard the Mediterranean Sea to Gibraltar and thence to France where they disembarked just in time for the fall of that country. Once again Victor legged it south, this time over the Pyrenees into Franco's Spain. Caught and arrested he ended up in a Spanish Concentration camp, escaped and kept on heading south until he got across the border to Gibraltar. Eager to avenge his lost country and comrades he volunteered to join the British effort against Germany. When told that there were no vacancies for cavalry officers and that Bomber Command was the only large scale offensive effort against that nation he immediately opted to be trained as a BC pilot.

Somehow Victor went on defying the enormous odds pitted against him and survived. Like many other Polish volunteers in UK Forces he did not feel safe returning to communist post war Poland, and the RAF became his home, albeit he was obliged to retrain as a navigator in order to stay flying.

I've always felt honoured to have served with Poles such as Victor, as well as Czechs etc. All now long gone but always remembered. We let the Poles down badly at the end of the war, where they did not even feature in the Victory Parade. Any tribute paid now is worth it. A remarkable people!

By being a Pole serving in Bomber Command Victor was victim of the dishonourable PC policy of the British Government at the end of the European War. No Polish contingents in the UK Victory Parade, and no Battle of Germany Campaign Medal then (or Bombing, Bomber Command, or whatever). He was in good company though, his AOC in C was also victim of the same policy being alone among his fellow commanders not to be then ennobled.

Oh, yes, I know he didn't actually charge the invading Panzers on horse-back for a living, but was in fact mounted infantry. Might just as well though, as the outcome was much the same.

[clunckdriver]

Air Pig, if you read my thread again you will find that I referred to this indirectly, Old habits die hard, I have a living relative who still prefers not to mention his part in the "secret War", apart from referring to some senior officers as lacking the skills to take full advantage of such information!

[air pig]

Clinckdriver:

Apologies, there are many who took part in the 'secret war' who died without ever revealing what they did. The book Ultra goes to war by Ronald Lewin. The forward tells of a lady Judy Hutchinson whilst having a brain haemorrhage having great pain and confusion she remembered that her only fear was not for her life but of revealing what she knew of Ultra. This was some years after WW2.

Where the senior officers as I believe not allowed to directly use Ultra data without having another source that could give similar information.

I went to the Bletchley museum two years ago, more than an afternoon trip I assure you. They still have a Bombe for Enigma decrypts and every so often GCHQ send an Enigma message to see how long it takes then to decrypt it. In fact the British kept Bombe's until the 70s as a fall back.

Apologies for thread drift.

[Tankertrashnav]

The photo on the RAF site is too small to make out clearly, but on another site I saw the same photo, and it is clear that Captain Sporly is wearing RAF pilot's wings on his right breast in addition to his Polish wings and medal ribbons on his left. I don't think this was normal practice, would he have been awarded an honorary set of wings in recognition of his wartime achievements?

By being a Pole serving in Bomber Command Victor was victim of the dishonourable PC policy of the British Government at the end of the European War. No Polish contingents in the UK Victory Parade, and no Battle of Germany Campaign Medal then (or Bombing, Bomber Command, or whatever).

Chugalug, I'm afraid you are incorrect about Polish aircrew not receiving the same medals as their British and Commonwealth counterparts. Here is an excerpt from an auction catalogue which shows that the Poles received the same Aircrew Europe Star as everyone else. There was no "Battle of Germany Campaign Medal" Are you thinking of the "France and Germany Star which all aircrew on ops after D Day (including Poles) received instead of the ACE Star? The Bomber Command clasp is, of course, a recent innovation and did not exist in 1966.

"Lot 352
A scarce Honorary D.F.M. group of five awarded to Flight Sergeant Bernard Kowalski, Nos. 301 and 305 (Polish) Squadrons, Royal Air Force, who flew on all three ‘1,000 bomber’ raids in May and June 1942 Distinguished Flying Medal, G.VI.R. (780329 F/Sgt. B. Kowalski); 1939-45 Star; Air Crew Europe Star; War Medal; Poland, Virtuti Militari, Silver Merit Cross, the lower reverse arm numbered ‘9103’, together with the recipient’s original..."

[Chugalug2]

TTN, I am quite aware of the Aircrew Europe Star, and of the France Germany Star. My point (badly made and for which I apologise) is that the European Bombing Campaign was just that, a separate campaign in its own right. The night bombing campaign of Bomber Command was second only to that of the Kreigsmarine U-boat one in the loss rate for any major military organisation in the west. I also know (having probably learned it from your good self ;-) that the Aircrew Europe Star is known "in the trade" as the BC medal.

The Battle of the Atlantic was waged primarily at sea, though its Star was rightly awarded to those who also participated under or over it. I feel that the same logic should apply to the air "Battle of Germany", as I believe Harris labelled his Strategic Bombing Offensive. It was quite apart from the land campaign after D-Day which was rightly acknowledged by the France Germany Star.

If Bomber Harris had won his bid to have a campaign star for his Bombing Campaign then the bitter controversy that has since lasted to this day (though ameliorated by time, the Grim Reaper, and the recent award of a clasp) could have been avoided. It was just another petty blow by the Establishment against the brave young men of many nationalities that fought that long and bloody battle throughout the European War.

I know we have been round this buoy before and I do not wish to add to any thread drift much more. To be fair too, I never heard Victor complain of it either, his complaints were more immediate and personal. In his heavily accented and limited English he would explode with a "F****** *****, I will crush his f****** skull!" It was then time to make one's apologies and leave....!

[Tankertrashnav]

Ok I see your point now. As you said we have been round this buoy before, and an attempt to put things to rights by the award of the "Bomber Command" clasp was probably a case of too little too late. As you rightly say the grim reaper will soon have gathered in all those who were involved in the European bombing campaign, so I doubt if there will be any further developments.

Anyone know anything about those "extra" pilot's wings?

[Yellow Sun]

I have to tell the story of the Catering Officer at Gaydon, Mike Manson (his anglicised name). Mike was otherwise known as "Mickey Mouse" and appears in the book "The Wooden Horse" as the goon baiter.

One evening in the bar two student navigators were bemoaning the state of Britain and generally running down the country. Mike who was next them, turned around and confronted them:

"You stop knocking my country! You were only born British, and couldn't help it! I chose!"

But there was so much more to Mike, his fellow countrymen and the other East Europeans who chose to remain in the RAF after the war. There was something about all of them and I felt that it was a privilege to have known and served with them.

YS

[Hempy]

Anyone know anything about those "extra" pilot's wings?

When the Poles first joined the RAF they were issued with RAF pilots brevets as per the Regs. Of course, they complained that they should be wearing their own 'wings', so, in need of qualified pilots, the RAF acquiesced.

Not to be outdone, others thought that they should have RAF brevets as well, so they were issued with a smaller set that was worn on the right.

Some only wore the Polish rig, others wore both.
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/polish-armed-forces-west-polskie-si-y-zbrojne-na-zachodzie-1939-1947/817337d1426761009-british-awards-polish-soldiers-kpt-pil-p1626-jerzy-szymankiewicz-vm-kw-dfc-316-sqdn.jpg?
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/polish-armed-forces-west-polskie-si-y-zbrojne-na-zachodzie-1939-1947/816973d1261873359-british-awards-polish-soldiers-kpt-henryk-pietrzak-dfc.jpg?
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/polish-armed-forces-west-polskie-si-y-zbrojne-na-zachodzie-1939-1947/816529d1426588802-british-awards-polish-soldiers-kpt-pil-wlodzimierz-klisz-afc.jpg?
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/polish-armed-forces-west-polskie-si-y-zbrojne-na-zachodzie-1939-1947/976518d1467540013-british-awards-polish-soldiers-stefan-witorzenc.jpg
http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/attachments/polish-armed-forces-west-polskie-si-y-zbrojne-na-zachodzie-1939-1947/812879d1425828013-british-awards-polish-soldiers-dfcs-303-sqdn-oc-pilots.jpg?

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks a lot Hempy, I didnt know that. Very interesting photos as well.

[Chugalug2]

It appears that Polish variation to the RAF uniform was not limited to the wings. In the top two pics there are "pips" (or stars?) which presumably relate to Polish AF rank insignia, whereas the group of four (well three at least) are sporting Fg Off/Flt Lt RAF sleeve insignia. Was this also a case where they arbitrarily wore one, or the other, or both? Of course the 3* (if indeed that is what he was) was possibly a General and not an Air Marshal anyway....

The Poles not only charmed the birds (of all varieties!) off the trees but it seems blinged up their uniforms to enhance the effect as well! :ok:

[Fareastdriver]

Everybody in the rotary world of the sixties and seventies knew Alex Tarwid, the Red Baron. He too was ex-Polish cavalry, the son of the Director of the Polish Railways, who escaped to the UK and joined the RAF.

The amount of collective you were allowed to pull on the Wessex was limited by the torque limits on the transmission. For Alex it was 'sufficient'.

[MPN11]

The 3* would appear to be a porucznik, OF1.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Armed_Forces_rank_insignia#Commissioned_Ranks_2

For confusion at a distance, see the Naval ranks ... :)

[Chugalug2]

Indeed, a jg Lt, the lowest of the low in the USN, is a full Commander in theirs (if the insignia wasn't, shall we say, somewhat inflated)!

Not quite. A LT(jg) is not the lowest of the low. The Ensign is the lowest of the low, or as we used to say about the Bull Ensign (most senior of the Ensigns in a ship's wardroom) he was "the most significant of the least significant." Upon promotion, he became "the least significant of the most significant."

[Herod]

Alex Tarwid, the Red Baron.

"If you don't hit your wheels on the ground every hundred yards, you are not low-flying"

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Alex Tarwid, the Red Baron
Never had the pleasure of meeting The Red Baron, but his formation brief for Wessex was still known around the OCU when I did my training:

"..we go at 35"

"what, Flight Level 35?"

"No. Torque 35"

(ISTR the Wessex was restricted to 3200ftlb of torque)

[Chugalug2]

I think that I should point out that post #21, though ascribed to me, is presumably by T28B who edited it. He corrects a previous post by me which he quotes a part of (though ascribed to MPN11!) which has now gone to the great waste bin in the sky.

When PPRuNe Gremlins get to work they don't do things by halves, one must admit (rather like their aviation counterparts!).

Thanks for the correction, T28B. Your point is taken. I forgot that little fleas have lesser fleas and so on ad infinitum...