Unpicking the Alliance?

[ShotOne]

In a recent interview, the leader of the U.K. opposition Labour Party was asked whether he would provide military assistance to a NATO ally under attack. He was asked several times. In his answers Mr Corbyn stressed the need to avoid violence and provide diplomatic assistance. Each time he pointedly refused to give any commitment for military assistance. NATO already faces challenging times; Turkey is visibly upset at the perceived lack of support during their coup attempt. Without the commitment to mutual defence, the alliance is just an expensive lunch club. Difficult times ahead?

[Tankertrashnav]

I've never had much faith in Turkey as a NATO ally. Several times during my service, exercises which involved aircraft transiting over Turkish airspace with tanker support were cancelled due to refusal by Turkey to give diplomatic clearance. I remember wondering at the time if Poland, Hungary etc used to deny diplomatic clearance for overflights by Soviet aircraft!

[MSOCS]

With the USA understandably concerned about the S China Seas, it is going to expect the remaining NATO nations to police their own turf. Rising Russian ambition needs to be managed however, without a credible NATO force to oppose further Crimea-style encroachments, we just invite future problems.

The last thing the UK needs is a PM who always wants to talk, even when the time for talking has long passed.

[Hempy]

It's ok, it won't be long before there's only Eurasia, Eastasia and Oceania left to duke it out. Then we can all pool resources to fight each other.

[air pig]

I had a colleague who stated that on deployment to Turkey they were not allowed to fly at given times of the day whilst the Turkish Air Force operated against 'enemies'

[glad rag]

It was only this week past that US sf fighting alongside the Peshmerga had to call in US top cover as airborne assets were delivering ordnance "perilously" close to their positions...Turkish airborne assets. .

[Wander00]

Hands up all those who think Corbyn will ever be PM....thought not

[Davef68]

I had a colleague who stated that on deployment to Turkey they were not allowed to fly at given times of the day whilst the Turkish Air Force operated against 'enemies'

Op Northern watch to protect the Kurds from Sadaam had to be suspended on occasions so the Turks could go and bomb them instead.

[ShotOne]

Nor is it far-fetched that Turkish forces could be in combat against US-backed Kurds in the near future. But it's not just Turkey. Since Brexit the EU Army plan has re-emerged and appears to be gaining traction. NATO isn't flush with assets to begin with so this is going to force hard decisions on some NATO/EU members since those assets can't be in two places at once.

[[email protected]]

The last thing the UK needs is a PM who always wants to talk, even when the time for talking has long passed. Jeremy Corbyn - the new Neville Chamberlain - Peace in our Time - that turned out well.................

[Planet Basher]

Yes, it ended up giving us time to prepare for that unpleasantness over the south east in late 1940.

[octavian]

Mr Chamberlain has been much derided over his "piece of paper signed by Mr Hitler", however, he recognised that a conflict was inevitable and that the UK, amongst others was ill prepared for war. By his actions over appeasement he gave this country, and in the long term the rest of the world, a breathing space and time to make preparations for that conflict.

History has not been kind to Mr Chamberlain.

I don't think that Mr Corbyn will even warrant a mention in history.

Who is he again?

[ShotOne]

Let's not mention Corbyn and Chamberlain in the same breath. Without Neville Chamberlain we'd have fought the Battle of Britain with Gloster Gladiators

[Tashengurt]

Corbyn has been a failed experiment or,at my most charitable, a brief hic of left wing nostalgia.
Which is a shame because whatever side of the political fence you live on, we really do need a credible opposition.

[Hempy]

I'd be happy with a credible government..

[LeggyMountbatten]

Thread drift

Without Neville Chamberlain we'd have fought the Battle of Britain with Gloster Gladiators

That is generally accepted. But the failure to capitalise on the German total commitment to Poland in the autumn of 1939 is seen as a mistake. In Jodl's evidence at Nuremberg (bottom of page 350 here http://www.loc.gov/rr/frd/Military_Law/pdf/NT_Vol-XV.pdf) he points out the German weakness in the west at that time.

Back on thread

Corbyn's shenanigans is only the start of a realignment on the left.

But conflicts start through the "other" side misreading signals. cf Bicheno's Razor's Edge. Corbyn's meandering comments may well be creating a greater risk if they are seen as part of a reduction in resolve by European NATO members.

[Royalistflyer]

Personally, I'd be happy to see us out of NATO and concentrating our somewhat meagre resources on defending this island. If the EU ends up with its own army, it can do the job of defending the EU. Russia only wants secure borders without any large army camped near them. If that's understood, there will be no problem with Russia.
We, however need to concentrate on our seaward borders with navy "coastguard" vessels and RAF maritime surveillance and both those functions need to be well set up.

[Chugalug2]

LM:-
the failure to capitalise on the German total commitment to Poland in the autumn of 1939 is seen as a mistake. In Jodl's evidence at Nuremberg he points out the German weakness in the west at that time.

So the reason that he was hung as a War Criminal was because Britain and France botched their chance to stop Hitler in 1939? It was he and the rest of the German High Command who failed to stop Hitler, and botched it when a few of them did finally get round to trying to rid the World of him. It was he who signed the Commando Order to summarily execute uniformed Commandos when captured, and he was rightly convicted at Nuremberg.

He may have thought that a joint aggressive operation by Britain and France in 1939 could have been successful, but I would very much beg to differ and can only echo the view of George VI after the fall of France, "Thank God we are now alone"!

[ShotOne]

"I never had much faith in Turkey as a NATO ally"..." Unfortunately that seems to be mutual! As a result she appears to be paying token regard to US wishes regarding her present military action against US-backed Kurds in Syria.

In the UK we've been treated to a glimpse of how Corbyn's Britain would be. For the benefit of non-UK ppruners, the great man-of-the-people had himself filmed sitting on the floor of an allegedly "ram-packed" railway carriage. Unfortunately CCTV showed him walking past rows of empty seats then taking a comfy seat after filming finished. So far, so silly. The real story started afterwards with a campaign against train's owner, Richard Branson for releasing the footage, described as a "political intervention" Branson became a Soviet-style enemy of the state. His tax status has been questioned, he has been threatened with prosecution for releasing the inconvenient CCTV footage, and with the state-confiscation of his rail company. Lastly, Corbyn wants to strip him of his knighthood. For some it seems, the wrong side won the Cold War!

[Arclite01]

For me what I see of Turkey on the TV lately it appears more and more like Nazi Germany


Large rallies - red and white flags - encourage the underclasses to support you
Make a fairly minor coup attempt appear to be a threat against 'all Turks everywhere' so you can deploy any rules you like to 'crush the threat and restore order'
No disagreement with the official line - 'State is Family'
Single political and state leader
Lots of close 'cronies' in key roles - removal of key people in key roles in society
Military effectively 'beheaded' - introduction of paramilitary 'interfaces'
Declared policy of border expansion
isolating and targeting of minority groups
Idealogy driven models
Destruction of political opposition
Crushing of Academic environments and 'free thinking' radicals
Burning of academic and religious texts
Concentration of objectors into prisons (camps)

Pretty scary stuff, how long before someone says 'enough is enough' ??

Arc

'Where one burns books, one eventually burns people' Christian Johann Heinrich Heine (December 13, 1797 – February 17, 1856

[[email protected]]

Personally, I'd be happy to see us out of NATO and concentrating our somewhat meagre resources on defending this island. against who?? We might just about repel an attack from the Isle of Wight and its inbred ghettos but we don't have the firepower or manpower to stop a proper army/navy/air force. We need NATO and Europe to stand together or Putin will divide and conquer.

[SWBKCB]

Hands up all those who thought Corbyn would ever be leader of the Labour party ....thought not

[NutLoose]

Hands up all those who thought Corbyn would ever be leader of the Labour party ....thought not

I think he is great, he is the best politician the Conservative party has, he does more for their electoral chances than all of the Conservative politicians put together.

[Pontius Navigator]

It would mean another round of redundancies amongst the stars as NATO posts are transferred as Brita hold many VSO command slots.