Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?

[SASless]

Quick Point....this system is far more cost effective and has greater over all capability in solving crime than any Police Helicopter Operation.

The Helicopter does have an advantage in Hot Pursuit events perhaps but is that advantage worth the cost?

I see a combination of both the Helicopter and this Program as being the best of both Worlds.

Is there something similar in operation in the UK?

Would Air Traffic Rules prohibit this kind of operation in say....London Metropolitan Area?

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-baltimore-secret-surveillance/

[Flying Bull]

Well, interesting technologie

But police helicopters not only look...

Just beeing there brings people to call the police about things (people) they have seen, criminals, which hide, when the helicopter comes clear and so on.
Additional FLIR-Systems allow to search for missing people and for criminals - which often couldn´t be seen with the mark 1 eyeball - or an image, taken out of that height.

And with data issues - the questin is, wheather the public will accept such an observation...

[handysnaks]

To answer your question! No. When weather or serviceability interferes, day to day policing may go on without air support, so irrespective of the technology you highlight. Policing does not depend on police helicopters.

Whether a fixed wing is a better platform that a helicopter depends on a number of things such as terrain, environment and the type of tasking you want the aircraft to do. That small fixed wing aircraft are cheaper than helicopters seems pretty incontrovertible!

In England and Wales, the police have decided that fixed wing aircraft have an important part to play in providing police air support, so they are pretty much in agreement with your final contention. All that remains is to decide whether the equipment provides sufficient evidence to be used as a primary tool. or whether it is of a quality that can only be used as intelligence to assist in the solving of crime (as appears to be the case with the description of the system in the piece you highlight). Perhaps the biggest issue is that highlighted by Flying Bull. At the moment, most of what we do is targeted to a specific incident, There is an distinct element of continuous surveillance with the system you highlight (one might argue that with the preponderance of CCTV and ANPR cameras in the UK we already have that). However, that 'Big Brother' effect does appear to interfere with the idea of policing by consent! (unless of course the general public, should they ever be asked agree to a system like that being put into operation).

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Sas,

I think I see where you're coming from, but apart from events known of in advance (e.g. the announcement of the verdict in the Freddie Gray trial), and given the extremely wide sweep of this technology, wouldn't this be better used for footage obtained as evidence after an incident/crime has occurred ? It would take a huge number of analysts poring over live footage which would have to be broken down into manageable zones, where most of the time nothing is happening to see someone doing something bad. Then they call the appropriate emergency service who dispatch the nearest available resource. All this would be cost averse and not very timely surely ?

Police helicopters with human (i.e. common sense, instinct etc) input can be and are proven to have been extremely effective in apprehending criminals during or immediately following such an event. Car chases, people hiding in undergrowth/on rooftops, cannabis factories (heat signature), drug dealers in the act of plying their trade to mention just a few.

Just my two penneth.

NEO

[Wageslave]

Police helicopters with human (i.e. common sense, instinct etc)

...pretty rare attributes in the police judging from my several years of flying the damn things.

[SASless]

In the video....two guys walking in a parking lot were trackable by the System.

If you had a Missing Person....it would seem possible to track that individual from the last know time and place with some accuracy.

The example given of following people/vehicles from the location/time of a crime forwards makes sense as does back tracking before the crime occurred. The Back Tracking certainly is something current investigative work often cannot or does not do.

Intelligence gathering is what would be the strong point to this system in my opinion.

The Police Helicopter is too visible for that purpose.

As to Search and Rescue....Active Pursuit....the Helicopter with a FLIR and good FLIR Operator is hard to beat. Been there and done that myself but I understand the weaknesses of that system too.

All of these systems have weaknesses....so it is more a cost/effectiveness issue with the best option being a combination of several but plainly Cost drives what combination could be afforded.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Sounds like you were with the rwong force(s), Wageslave. I couldn't have hoped for a better transition to civvy street after 28 years Military; I saw smart, joined-up thinking at virtually every level of the Forces/Constabularies on whose behalf I flew around the country. The occasional dipstick, sure - but overall I was impressed by the quality of the people who, with our consent, keep an eye out for us.

Officers aboard the aircraft who knew their patch really made a difference too, as evidenced by a car theft in my first set of shifts. On hearing what type of car had just been stolen, an Observer directed me to fly to a certain address where we watched said car arriving nearby. Not sure that we have retained such knowledge and skills with the advent of NPAS, but as I'm no longer involved I have no current evidence.

..."damn things" and "Wageslave" make it sound like you might even have been on the rwong career path, too.

[MightyGem]

Seconded, T&B. :ok:

[Rotate too late]

there are of course dumb criminals, but not all. It's only effective when airborne, they will change their pattern, wait for bad weather, look for weaknesses. Law enforcements biggest mistake has been to declare it. Now the bad guys know. Just like we have with all our silly bottom feeder tv shows, we have declared our capability. Now they react to that. Fixed wing in the UK will struggle, because of all the same reasons it struggled before.

[Wageslave]

T & B, Gem. I may well have been with the wrong force - in fact I know I was, but your smug, self-appointed ability to leap to assumptions without a shred of supporting evidence or knowledge whatsoever makes it very clear to me that you are indeed well exposed to Police ops. It's a trait that is far, far too familiar to miss.

I am actually a great supporter of Police Aviation as long as it is not populated with the thugs, psychophants, reg spotters, arse-crawlers and career incompetents that made up most of the unit I was on and I doubt that today many, if any of them are. But back then not every unit was a paragon of freakishly convenient local knowledge as yours evidently was. I suppose back then Police Aviation hadn't had the benefit of your 28 years military expertise to show them how to be honest, decent, competent coppers, not to mention airborne observers. (!)

[ShyTorque]

Sounds like you were with the rwong force(s), Wageslave. I couldn't have hoped for a better transition to civvy street after 28 years Military; I saw smart, joined-up thinking at virtually every level of the Forces/Constabularies on whose behalf I flew around the country. The occasional dipstick, sure - but overall I was impressed by the quality of the people who, with our consent, keep an eye out for us.

"Thirded!"

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Wageslave,

Where did that vitriol emanate from ? I've just read and then for good measure re-read the entire thread and can't see anything to provoke such a personal attack ?

Regardless, thanks for the input; Sasless was just starting a debate ?! :sad:

NEO

[Wageslave]

Its a pity some of the smug buggers here evidently never had to work for a sloppy outfit and clearly don't take the time to consider what life on the other side was like. How thoughtful of them.

NEO.Your rhetorical question cannot go unanswered. What right does anyone have to question one's "career path" in such a snide and critical manner when it was the circumstances around it and beyond your control or influence that were at fault? That's exceptionally unpleasant as well as irrational.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Still no need for a personal attack. Why not stick to the original question/issue ?

NEO

[mickjoebill]

It can't see through clouds.
It is less effective at altitudes below 8000ft.

So police helicopters will be needed to fill in the gaps.
In any event police helicopters offer the high resolution and frame rate needed for live command and control.
Yes it is feasible for a wide area equiped fixed wing to be also equipped with a narrow view 30fps stabilised video camera and down link.
But since it is flying at 8000ft rather than 1000ft the target image will always be if a lower resolution for a given lens and made slightly worse by increase in atmospheric pollution due to increase distance between subject and lens.



Mickjoebill

[SilsoeSid]

Are Police Helicopters Really Necessary?
Quick Point....this system is far more cost effective and has greater over all capability in solving crime than any Police Helicopter Operation.

Not at one pixel per person and 2 million dollars a year it isn't.
However if missing people could be found easier .......

[MightyGem]

The occasional dipstick
Had a UEO who was one of those. :*

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Hmm - seem to have hit a nerve. Certainly didn't end up on a unit like Wageslave's. Had the pleasure/privilege of working full-time for 1 metropolitan force, then as a floater covering 5 other forces at various times including all mainland UK countries. I think if I'd found myself somewhere like WS then I'd have walked - as I did from the one very-well-paid but utterly incompetent overseas unit for whom I flew. The closest I've come to a wrong career path - I did something about it, though. Might've hit me in the wallet but it was worth it to get away and try somewhere that didn't have me surrounded by thugs, psychophants, reg spotters, arse-crawlers and career incompetents

Still can't see - after re-reading previous submission - where I made any smug assumptions though. Just commented on what WS had put in black-and-white. Certainly wouldn't (and didn't) claim that >2 decades of military time equipped me to show them how to be honest, decent, competent coppers - where did that come from? As for 'freakishly convenient' local knowlege - that was brought into the mix by people who'd policed their community for many years before joining the unit, and was appreciated by all except the habit-bound criminals who, for example, only knew how to steal one particular type of car.

Back to the OP - Sasless, one attribute that helicopters bring to the mix is crime prevention; a visible/audible police presence is a clear deterrent to both opportunity- and premeditated- illegal activity. The system you describe has its uses after a crime has been committed; better by far to stop the crime from ever happening.

[SASless]

How does one document "Preventing A Crime"?

It is easy to document investigating a Crime after it happens.

Police are very good at showing up after the Crime has been committed.

Unless your Perps are a lot dimmer than ours....they can look around and listen a bit and know where the Plod's Chopper isn't.

[MightyGem]

How does one document "Preventing A Crime"?
You can't, but we always said that we did. :E

[serf]

No, they are not.

[PANews]

I have been following the Persistent Surveillance System PSS [and similar] for quite a few years now and I really expected it to pop up in use at the London Olympics but no sign of it there. Whilst it does what it says on the label it does have this in-built problem of requiring a petty clear sky. Great in California but rubbish in most of Europe. That is possibly why it did not make London 2012. That is not a criticism - after all police aviation needs the same clear sky sometimes and is not therefore as persistent as the 24/7/365 hype tends to suggest.

The requirement for a PSS to need an endlessly orbiting aircraft suggests that it might get a bit boring up there and therefor perhaps once the technical side of Sense and Avoid is sorted its something a UAS could do.

On reading this article it seems that it is a fairly good back up to a modest coverage of CCTV [the ultimate 2012 London deterrent was lots of cameras] if targeting a specific area without the blanket application of ground cameras. But only of course while the Cessna carrier is in the air. How many PSS Cessna's would it need to cover LA all day every day? Impossible by any measure.

As I said PSS has been on offer for a long time now and new technology is appearing that might well just brush it under the table in the same way as those tape recorders were banished from airborne surveillance just when they got them right because someone 'invented' the solid state recorder in the same week

Harris now have a system that does the same thing without the requirement for the endless circling carrier aircraft. It is still in development but its a turret [about 15inch] that can be fitted to anything and as far as I can make out it changes the endless circling into an electronic scan to detect the changes. It will probably cost more but may be better.... especially if all it needs is to replace the EO/IR turret on your standard airframe.

They call it CorvusEye 1500 and ... maybe.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/wide-area-surveillance-corvuseye-1500-darren-gould-minstsmm?articleId=6049253986643570688#comments-6049253986643570688&trk=prof-post

[MightyGem]

Or did you mean the Sgt?
Could be both. Depends which Sgt you mean. :E No, yes, no. :)

[SilsoeSid]

No, they are not.

Serf, I would like to see you say that to face of the mother who has just been reunited with her six year old daughter who had been missing for four hours. How were they reunited? She was located in a gulley on the moors near to where they were staying by the police helicopter on a dark, wet, cold winters evening.

I often wonder why people like you have your opinion of police helicopters and their crews; I think it is because we always read the nice stories about casualties going to say thank you to the air ambulance crews that airlifted them .... but no one ever knocks on a police unit's door to say thank you.

[serf]

Serf, I would like to see you say that to face of the mother who has just been reunited with her six year old daughter who had been missing for four hours. How were they reunited? She was located in a gulley on the moors near to where they were staying by the police helicopter on a dark, wet, cold winters evening.

I often wonder why people like you have your opinion of police helicopters and their crews; I think it is because we always read the nice stories about casualties going to say thank you to the air ambulance crews that airlifted them .... but no one ever knocks on a police unit's door to say thank you.

I'm not knocking them, and I know many many police pilots. The OP asked are they really necessary; they are a nice to have, but absolutely necessary, then no. Policing will still happen without police helicopters, as it does in the vast majority of my part of the U.K.

[SilsoeSid]

they are a nice to have, but absolutely necessary, then no. Policing will still happen without police helicopters, as it does in the vast majority of my part of the U.K.

So, if the question was 'are air ambulances really necessary ...... '

[PANews]

It will be interesting to see how the 'rescue/public service' industry develops.

The police [now] 24/7 but mainly a crime fighting tool with secondary out of hours ambulance and search roles. Potential hoist capability [London], searchlight and EO/IR. NVG developing

UK SAR 24/7 mainly a SAR tool with secondary ambulance and some
recorded crime fighting roles noted in recent times and the past. The only one with any real personnel capacity, a dedicated hoist capability, searchlight and EO/IR. NVG

Air ambulance daylight only but moving towards some work in the dark.... may be 24/7 one day and some potential winch/long line capability. Searchlight already perhaps EO/IR in the future. NVG developing

All three are nominally the same but have difference priorities and funding models. The air ambulance has the more stable funding model when compared to the government funded police and SAR but those dedication borders are being steadily eroded. The threat to the air ambulance funding model is perhaps a public perception that they might be leaving the cosy charitable sector of 'ambulance.'

It is not beyond belief that an air ambulance charity might one day use its superior funding model to actually start using a hoist to lift rather than as a [retractable] long line, and might carry a multi-purpose EO/IR rather than perhaps start use as a night vision aid.

The result might be a complete reverse engineering of the dual use Wiltshire Police/Ambulance operation of yesteryear.

There are already several instances of charity funded SAR ambulances with a supplementry police option in Australia so the three seperate elements as we now have could easly and safely morph into one over a [considerable] period of time - that would mean we do not exactly have 'police helicopters'at all.

[serf]

So, if the question was 'are air ambulances really necessary ...... '

Why don't you pose the question in a new thread?

[SilsoeSid]

Because i asked you the question here, based on your earlier reply here.

[SASless]

Logically it is the same question.

Before Helicopters....people were transported by Ground Ambulances.

When Helicopters are not available....people are transported by Ground Ambulances.


Same in Police work and SAR....in the absence of Helicopters other assets are used.

Comparative efficiencies is the argument and whether one method undo's the need for another or are they complement one another and perhaps produce a much better overall product for the cost?

[Rotate too late]

Whilst that is quite true, there is also the political aspect, little Timmy dies en route because there isn't a helicopter, isn't as palatable as the same result whilst en route IN the helicopter. Same with the old bill but slightly harder to justify, hence the ability to open the cracks and provide alternative solutions, be they fixed wing or drones. Both offer a limited solution, but will claim to be a viable and cheaper alternative. Can you seriously imagine no rotary over London? No, but over an outlying county? Absolutely.

[HEMS chap]

PAN, I would have thought of all people you would know that air ambulance have been doing night ops for quite a while now. So saying daylight only but moving towards night ops is a bit off the mark to those charities who have fronted up and taken on board the use of NVG/NVIS. Each does what they think is required and affordable for their own "patch" . Certainly one has been using NVIS for two years now, another has been using them till about 0300 in morning, and others have been using them to cover the winter months. Apologies if this gets posted twice as I tried quick reply and a mod has to approve it........

[PANews]

Air police what on earth has sentencing policy got to do with the worth or otherwise of emergency services air assets?

[ShyTorque]

PANews, we spend a lot of money catching people to not punish them, so they do it again.

So why not just do away with police altogether?

[SASless]

Job Security....if they stay in Jail you do not get to chase them again.;)

[G0ULI]

The problem is that Police helicopters and Air Ambulances were brought in as a cost saving measure to reduce travel time to far flung incidents and rescue persons who were not conveniently near a road. Ground crews were cut back because they were no longer needed to provide an emergency response in remote areas.

Unfortunately, the cost savings that might have accrued were eaten up by increased costs of aviation. You can't cut back on servicing there, or ride roughshod over the rules governing duty times, unlike police drivers who frequently drove emergency response vehicles for more than eighteen hours in twenty four. Been there, done that. Chasing some scroat at 110 mph down a suburban high street after eighteen hours behind the wheel (including travel to and from home and five hours sleep) is not undertaken lightly. Neither is it particularly safe. Tiredness is probably worse than alcohol in its potential to lead to an accident. Many police officers have been killed in traffic accidents on the way home from work, with no other vehicle involved.

Times have changed and the rules have changed, hopefully for the better, but if you are going to have police helicopters, it has to be run and financed independently and not at the expense of cutting back on ground based staff and vehicles.

We have arrived at the point where police helicopters are necessary to cover the shortfall in investment in ground based resources. Same for air ambulances. If you do away with these services now, all the old remote bases will need to be set up again and a lot more money spent than wil be saved by doing away with helicopters.

[PANews]

HEMS Chap yes but in reviewing the state of the nation it would have been incorrect of me to say that HEMS are 24/7 night flying. Daylight only is the broad picture, night capability is where some are moving towards.

They are all different, shades of absolutely nothing to operating. Only the police [still not 100% but the intent is there when the held over units like Lancashire close] and SAR can be declared as 24/7 night flying.

I am sorry but the majority of UK HEMS are not yet night flyers. Extending hours or return flights into the dark is not in any way a solid commitment to night flying. Even those with proper night flying on their agenda are still talking of close down around midnight, maybe 2am. Yes some do more than others but many have no intention of doing 'real' 24/7 at the moment simply because the demand is currently seen as too patchy or there is simply nowhere to fly to..... sort of pretty useful to have a 24/7 helipad at a hospital if you declare a capability!

As you say.... Each does what they think is required and affordable for their own "patch".... but NPAS and SAR is a national commitment.... you still need insider knowledge to know where it is safe to break your leg at night...

Only when we are anywhere near the point where you can stand anywhere in the UK at any time of day and demand a HEMS air ambulance is there a night service. At the moment the odds are well stacked that either the police or SAR will turn up. As long as the weather and serviceability are kind of course.....

I have little doubt that a handful of UK HEMS may decide to go real 24/7 in a year or three but near future [say 2017] its still down to the police and UK SAR to provide that service for the foreseeable future.

[ShyTorque]

The BBC news has just announced there has been yet another road accident (pedestrian fatalities x 4) involving a car being pursued by police vehicles.

Avoidance of this type of accident was one of the reasons police pursuits in UK were in my day (pre NPAS) often carried out from the air where possible. Obviously, with fewer aircraft now available, this type of accident is very likely to continue to occur, as it was in the bad old days before police helicopter air support was more in vogue.

[Rotate too late]

Mate, seriously?
It's literally just occurred, people have died and you're tapping out that sort of ****e?
It was in London FFS, how many rotary on call?
You don't know the circumstances, how long it was being followed and people have died. Nice one.

[homonculus]

Bit of a daft question really, due to the word 'necessary'

Clearly some criminals have been apprehended due to police helicopters who would otherwise have got away. The real question is whether my taxes were put to good use burning all that Jet A so the little Toerags could be rapped over the knuckles and let off with a suspended sentence. Personally I think not unless you got my money / car / watch back

As for HEMS, there is far less evidence they actually save lives. In fact none. So necessity depends on what value you put on avoiding an hour's land ambulance ride to hospital with a broken leg......

I suspect at the end of the day it is much like anything else paid for by taxes. The 43.8% of the population who pay no tax want more spent. The 1% who pay 27.5% of all taxes are not so enthusiastic.

[PANews]

Too early to make concrete judgements on the crash in south London - at which there was an air ambulance.

But of course there is no evidence they save lives...... It is therefore fortunate that the public remain deluded on that point and continue to spin their 10p peices into the collection tins!

One such deluded person will be representing us in Rio shortly...

Speed, strength and skill – new film from EHAAT highlights Jonny Coggan’s road to Rio

The former airlifted patient of Essex and Herts Air Ambulance sets off for Rio this week to represent Great Britain in the Wheelchair Rugby tournament, his fourth Paralympic Games.

As the charity point out it would have been easy for him to think his sporting dreams were over when, on April 11th, 2000, he found himself being flown to hospital by Essex Air Ambulance after a road traffic collision left him paralysed.

After the crash Essex Air Ambulance was called to transport Jonny to hospital.

Jonny said: “Essex Air Ambulance was called because I needed to get to a specialist spinal hospital as quickly as possible and as soon as they arrived, I knew I was in safe hands. The speed with which they worked and got me to Stoke Mandeville Hospital was critical to my recovery.

“Speed, skill and strength are the three things I rely on in my sport, and they are the three things that saved my life that day.”

So..... what does he know....

https://youtu.be/7WVw9y5Czsc

[ShyTorque]

Mate, seriously?
It's literally just occurred, people have died and you're tapping out that sort of ****e?
It was in London FFS, how many rotary on call?
You don't know the circumstances, how long it was being followed and people have died. Nice one.

Of course people died. That's why it's highly relevant to this discussion.

During my own experience as a police pilot, when we turned up overhead an ongoing vehicle pursuit it often allowed the "blues and twos" on the ground to be turned off, taking the perceived pressure off the pursuee. The control room commander not infrequently ordered this to be done. The errant car driver almost always slowed down and took fewer risks. Obviously you can't see how this makes it safer for everyone - so be it.

[Rotate too late]

I'm talking about taste and common decency, you look for playground point scoring. I pity you.

[MightyGem]

but absolutely necessary, then no
One could say that's what NPAS think, considering how many they've got rid of.

[HEMS chap]

Oddly enough PAN I agree with a lot of those points. I don't agree with the fact you can demand/or expect a service when your in need.......... they are charities who strive to do that but its bloody expensive you know. Thats like demanding that the RNLI ( whom I admire greatly) pitch up when needed, yes they do but they as well are a charity and sadly the end result is someone has to do the maths with funding........ its kinda nuts when me you and Jo public are demanding that a charity provides a service. SAR and police do a 24 hr service of course, well the police soon in various bases ( subject to aviation norms, of weather etc etc etc)
As you say NPAS and SAR are a national thing so 24 hr cover is provided....... with government backing, HEMS charities would probably love to use the wording.... a solid commitment to night 24 hour OPS at all our units...........But as always its all about funding......if what you say is right about units who are night flying bringing their operating hours back, I am quite sure ( hope) they have scrutinised that to death to make sure they they are doing it for the right reasons.

[green_eyes]

As for HEMS, there is far less evidence they actually save lives. In fact none.

Would love to see whatever data you have on that little claim as I've seen the contrary with my own eyes, and have friends who are only alive because HEMS was around.

Still, regardless of whether or not they prevent an actual death from occurring, does it not save society money when someone with a traumatic brain injury can make it to neurosurgery quickly and make a complete recovery? Or how about making the difference between someone who makes a full recovery from a heart attack vs having enough permanent damage to their heart so that they are unable to have any sort of quality of life?

In either of these situations, patients will live, but quality of life and what they can contribute to society would be another story.

But then again, this is about police helicopters...

[ShyTorque]

I'm talking about taste and common decency, you look for playground point scoring. I pity you.
That's a ridiculous and unjustified accusation. I'm deeply concerned that we have lost much of the excellent police aviation organisation we had only a few years ago. Point scoring has nothing to do with what I posted.

[Rotate too late]

I'm not letting you off so easily with some sort of faux wounded outrage. Read your own bloody post!
You have posted factually wrong information (numbers of those tragically killed) based on an incident that you have no clue about to support your own theories and agenda.
I withdraw from this along with my pity.

[SilsoeSid]

Rotate too late,

Listening to the the radio news while I was driving in this evening , the report was that four people were believed to have been killed when ...

Your rant has the benefit of actual/factual hindshight; at the time of Shy's post it was correct based on the reported facts at the time.
∴ Probably a good thing for you to scuttle away.

[homonculus]

Green eyes, you cant have data to prove there is no evidence!!! Please PM me the data you claim to have and I would be happy to critique it. Manchester University did the definitive audit of HEMS and concluded the only lives saved are isolated head injuries where the helicopter carries a doctor and no doctor could be otherwise delivered. At the time it was 1-2 cases per year within the M25, now with rapid intervention units it is even less.

Sadly your comments about brain injury and heart attacks sound logical but heart attacks are stabilized as well by paramedics in the field as by doctors. Intervention occurs in hospital and the therapeutic time window is either not improved or is not an issue in these cases.

Anyhow, as you say it is about police helicopters. I was merely making the point that necessity is hard to define and may be more relevant to whether the individual has to pay for it or not!

[Ian Corrigible]

The 43.8% of the population who pay no tax want more spent.
Just to play devil's advocate: since the bottom quintile actually has a higher overall tax burden (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/the-graph-that-shows-how-the-poor-are-paying-more-than-the-rich-in-tax-10353982.html) that the top quintile (all taxes, not just income tax), and since they probably experience* more crime than the top 20%, maybe their position is understandable.

I/C

*And, yes, probably generate more as well... :E

[green_eyes]

Homonculus, I don't feel like hijacking this thread for HEMS and I can't PM you (I think it has something to do with the age of my account). Could you PM me? Maybe that open that function up for me.

However, I would suggest that the effectiveness of both police helicopter and HEMS services differ greatly based on the location and needs of the population they are serving.

PS - Could you please send me the link of the paramedic program that you claim is able to perform an angioplasty in the field? I know some guys in HEMS that would be very interested in that.

[ShyTorque]

Rotate too late,

Listening to the the radio news while I was driving in this evening , the report was that four people were believed to have been killed when ...

Your rant has the benefit of actual/factual hindshight; at the time of Shy's post it was correct based on the reported facts at the time.
∴ Probably a good thing for you to scuttle away.
Thanks Sid, yes I must have heard the same report on BBC Radio 2. Definitely said four.

[ShyTorque]

Air police, I didn't understand why my post seemed to be regarded as "point scoring" by "RTL". I hadn't intended to be in competition with anyone or for it to be offensive in any way. Nor was I expressing "faux wounded outrage". I was merely expressing my opinion based on experience in the job. But never mind, he/she has taken umbrage and left the discussion.

[[email protected]]

I think this Mate, seriously?
It's literally just occurred, people have died and you're tapping out that sort of ****e?
It was in London FFS, how many rotary on call?
You don't know the circumstances, how long it was being followed and people have died. Nice one. is more the faux outrage - possibly a Daily Mail reader:E

[JulieAndrews]

Limitless pot of money - Yes - for the same reason that liposuction should be available on NHS; nice if can be afforded, why wouldn't you.

Limited pot of money - No - for the reason already mentioned in another thread - 'scroat' is usually given a 'rap on the knuckles'. Great for searching for lost kids but drones will be doing that in not to distant future at fraction of cost.
Choppers are a 'nicety' but far from essential imho.

[SilsoeSid]

Derek Dilworth found after spending two nights on moors in storms | Plymouth Herald (http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/missing-derek-dilworth-airlifted-to-hospital-after-spending-8216-two-nights-on-moorland-8217-in-storms/story-29684164-detail/story.html)

Cornwall Search and Rescue worked for hours to try to locate the pensioner over the weekend, and issued an appeal to the public, asking people to check their gardens and outbuildings as it was suspected Mr Dilworth might have sought shelter as the region was battered by torrential rain and strong winds on Saturday.

More than 50 team members from Cornwall and the four different Dartmoor teams, three search dog teams and five Land Rovers joined forces to search extensive areas of woodland and moorland close to the Mr Dilworth's home in the Darley Ford Quarry area of Liskeard.

The teams worked with officers from Devon and Cornwall police as fears grew for the pensioner's welfare.

Mr Dilworth was reported as being found safe on Bodmin Moor at about Sunday lunchtime after the Devon and Cornwall police helicopter crew located him on moorland.

The helicopter crew reported that they landed to assist with the search of this "high risk" missing person "in deteriorating weather".

He was then flown to hospital for medical checks.

Very well done NPAS Exeter (https://twitter.com/NPAS_Exeter?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5E author)
:D:D:D

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Crg-wWIWIAEZnel.jpg

[PANews]

I guess that one mission pretty much says it all. And that covers the worth of both the police and the HEMS mission.

[SilsoeSid]

Proof of the pudding
I guess that one mission pretty much says it all. And that covers the worth of both the police and the HEMS mission.


Both!!!

Isn't the clue of the police helicopter at the hospital HLS big enough?

[EESDL]

simple - bolt on a sensor, duct tape the wiring and now you have S&HEMS.
CBT whilst hanging about the crew room will cover the FLIR training.
YAA are already talking about fitting a winch so add an 'R'
S&RHEMs
Make it a silent 'H' as everyone knows by now that only helicopters come to the rescue....
You could argue that the 'E' is duplication as such tasks are not done for pleasure so it is always an Emergency.
S&RMS looks ungainly and the '&' is tricky and therefore makes name badges more expensive so replace with a stock letter like an 'A'
SARMS - looking familiar yet?
Will not be long before Bristows bid for the NPAS contract........

Excellent result with the Bodmin Moor case - how come they always appear to be found there?
I would have gone straight there ;-)
Tongue slightly in cheek but why not?
Also removes the often-cited tax-payer justification for retaining the copper chopper.

[PANews]

simple - bolt on a sensor, duct tape the wiring and now you have S&HEMS.
CBT whilst hanging about the crew room will cover the FLIR training.
YAA are already talking about fitting a winch so add an 'R'
S&RHEMs
Make it a silent 'H' as everyone knows by now that only helicopters come to the rescue....
You could argue that the 'E' is duplication as such tasks are not done for pleasure so it is always an Emergency.
S&RMS looks ungainly and the '&' is tricky and therefore makes name badges more expensive so replace with a stock letter like an 'A'
SARMS - looking familiar yet?
Will not be long before Bristows bid for the NPAS contract........

Excellent result with the Bodmin Moor case - how come they always appear to be found there?
I would have gone straight there ;-)
Tongue slightly in cheek but why not?
Also removes the often-cited tax-payer justification for retaining the copper chopper.

Just a word of caution on that Yorkshire AA comment.

My instruction is that the "winch" gear is fitted and will not be removed.

As I keep on being told by the manufacturers apparently we have to call them hoists these days. More a problem for me than casual conversations on here.

The YAA hoist is to be used as a retractable long line and they have no inclination to engage up or down while there is a body on it. That reduces the training requirement. But like all things that are there who knows what five years time will bring?

[Digital flight deck]

I think this question is rather pointless given the arbitrary dissolution of police air support, in rural parts of England and Wales (congrats on the footy last night) in any case.

[jimf671]

The whole multi-use HEMS-Police-SAR helicopter thing was discussed at RUSI in April 2012. There were very experienced people there from all those helicopter disciplines and several countries.

The multi-use idea did not gain much traction.

Some UK air ambulance types were getting very excited about long-line and this led to much rolling of eyes amongst those who have a grasp of the HEC accident rate in other territories. The Norwegian air ambulance guy emphasised the training load for their long-line work (10 training sorties per op sortie) and that its purpose was to insert a paramedic before the SAR helicopter arrived.

The Poles were developing a system for MR to abseil from air ambulances but again that was about insertion of specialist help at the casualty location.