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julietbravo
23rd Aug 2016, 06:56
I'm going through some training atm with someone who is teaching me different things from what I learnt in flying school. I just want to know other people's options because I don't want to learn bad habits.

In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff. So when I takeoff I just go straight to setting the attitude with reference to outside then confirm on the a/h that I'm at an attitude of between 12-15 degrees and wait for the airspeed to bleed back to what's required. Instead I am being told to pull right back above the attitude and the aircraft almost straight away is at airspeed then slowly lower the nose to maintain it.

Second thing he's telling me is to turn then bug. I understand that as a pilot you should be able to fly and big simultaneously but I was always told to bug then turn and to me it is easier and makes more sense to do it that way.

Thirdly is I did a parallel entry into a hold and was waiting till the turn outbound was complete before timing one minute and then he asked if I was going to get him to time my one minute. I replied saying I was waiting for the turn outbound to be complete but was told no I start it once overhead which made my intercept inbound a lot harder with higher banked turns because I wasn't far outbound in the entry procedure. (I know the way he told me was wrong but was wondering why he would think that's the correct way to do it or been taught that way?)

Feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Hempy
23rd Aug 2016, 11:36
try The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions-91/) :ok:

das Uber Soldat
23rd Aug 2016, 12:24
You'll get a million different responses which in a way, is an answer in and of itself.

Anyway, no comment on your first question.

2nd, I bug, then I turn. Don't know anyone who doesn't.

3rd, AIP ENR 1.5 is pretty clear.

"On reaching the holding fix, the aircraft is turned onto an outbound heading (to track parallel with the inbound track) for the appropriate period of time (taken from over or abeam the holding fix whichever is later), or until reaching the limiting DME distance if earlier; then"

Tee Emm
23rd Aug 2016, 13:50
In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff. So when I takeoff I just go straight to setting the attitude with reference to outside then confirm on the a/h that I'm at an attitude of between 12-15 degrees and wait for the airspeed to bleed back to what's required. Instead I am being told to pull right back above the attitude and the aircraft almost straight away is at airspeed then slowly lower the nose to maintain it.


Difficult to answer your first question from reading what you wrote as it doesn't make sense. What aircraft type? Sounds like a general aviation type with manually operated flight director where you say "set an attitude on the AH". If so, don't waste time on chasing a flight director. Learn to fly without it.

The advice given to you by your instructor on the other two questions is rubbish. It doesn't matter a rat's, re turning the heading bug before or after commencing the turn if manually flying. And re timing in the sector entry that you describe. Your instructor doesn't know his AIP that's for sure. Change instructors otherwise you risk wasting your money :ugh:

WannaBeBiggles
23rd Aug 2016, 20:05
Change instructor... If they don't know their Jepps/AIP's then that's a bad sign! "Fly the bug" is used everywhere I've worked (now in a multi-crew TP).

rmcdonal
23rd Aug 2016, 20:10
Sounds like you need to change instructors.
I would not pitch above the required attitude and then lower the nose once the speed had bled off, easier to rotate at the correct rate for your type and aim for a given attitude that you then adjust from. That way if you loose an engine you are less likely to find yourself below v2, and with both going the extra speed is unlikely to affect your terrain clearance by anything worth measuring.

Second thing he's telling me is to turn then bug. Why? Why would you do that? Set the bug to tell you when you have reached your required heading, setting after is just stupid. If you are hand flying (and you must be if that's the way they instruct you to move the bug) then why make it more difficult?

Thirdly is I did a parallel entry into a hold and was waiting till the turn outbound was complete before timing one minute and then he asked if I was going to get him to time my one minute. I replied saying I was waiting for the turn outbound to be complete but was told no I start it once overhead which made my intercept inbound a lot harder with higher banked turns because I wasn't far outbound in the entry procedure. (I know the way he told me was wrong but was wondering why he would think that's the correct way to do it or been taught that way?)

Sounds like your instructor doesn't know what they are talking about.
Ditch them now, or waste money learning incorrect procedures.

If it's an airline.....

julietbravo
23rd Aug 2016, 20:13
Thanks @Hempy, I should've explored forums more to find the right catergory to post under.

@das Uber soldat and @Tee Emm, sorry I was trying to post from my phone so it made it difficult to edit.

For takeoff I've been setting an attitude to try to achieve the desired performance (79kt).
In the manoeuvre section of the aircraft operations manual, it says the attitude for 79kt is approximately 12-15 degrees.
So I have been setting that attitude and initially the airspeed is higher, but after settling in the climb for a sec or two at that attitude, the airspeed does come back to 79kt.
But what my trainer tells me to do when raising the nose, is to bring the nose attitude up so that it's at 79kt (above 12-15 degrees) from the start and then lower the attitude when the airspeed starts decreasing to maintain 79kt.
I guess I can see the benefits of doing it his way because of the clearance it would give you over obstacles, I just find it more guess work than anything and by doing that i'm putting so much emphasis on watching the ASI.
I hope that makes it more clear.
I think because I know things one way, it's difficult to trust when someone is telling me to do something completely different to what I've spent hundreds of hours doing. I just want to know what I'm being taught is right, will benefit my flying and keep passengers safe.

The reason I actually asked about those other things such as the HDG bug is because he keeps nagging me about it, whenever I bug first. I bug first because it means I only focus on one thing at a time rather than turning and bugging simultaneously. Personally I think it's because he is impatient and when he gives me a heading to turn on to he expects it ASAP, rather than one second later. I did just want to clarify in case later on in my career, I should be turning first rather than bugging or to be more responsive to ATC.

Thanks for your replies.

AmarokGTI
23rd Aug 2016, 20:17
I concur with the above.
3 bad habits.
I would suggest not only to move on but to explain why, so they can know they need to up their game!

julietbravo
23rd Aug 2016, 20:42
I don't want to bag this guy, but either he's really lost or at that time got completely disorientated, because while doing the parallel entry after flying the reciprocal for 1 min, I started my (left) turn inbound (of a right hand holding pattern) and went through the coursebar to the holding side of the inbound then intercepted from there (as per parallel entry procedure) and he said at the time "you need to turn tighter, tighter" then once I went through to the hold side said "see now you've missed it, you've flown right through the inbound" as he obviously wanted my turn to intercept it from the non holding side. The wrong stuff that he is telling me is affecting my flying too because it makes it hard to trust the things he's telling me and concentrate as he's creating a lot of confusion.

The reason I've come to the forum is because this guy is the trainer for employment I have just gained. I have very limited experience so I wanted to be sure about these things before approaching him and talking to him about them because it's a really good opportunity and I don't want to put myself in the bad books already, before I've even done my OCA.

Snakecharma
23rd Aug 2016, 21:30
You will only pitch the aeroplane well above the target attitude on takeoff in a jet once before someone in the other seat gets grumpy.

And if you do what your instructor (hopefully soon to be ex instructor) is telling you to do in the sim with an engine failure it won't be pretty. (I appreciate he isn't in a jet (or assume he isn't) or a sim, but the habits developed now will come out when under stress later and as I say the bloke sitting next to him will quite rightly get a tad shirty).

Re the heading bug, the heading bug, amongst other things is an 'aide-memoire' so when you are loaded up hand flying the aeroplane you don't sit there and go "what heading did he want?" Single pilot IFR in a GA aeroplane with minimal support from Nav systems, decent instruments, autopilots etc is the hardest flying you will ever do in my opinion, don't let old mate stuff you up and generate even more work!

I was also taught to turn the heading bug in the required direction of turn even if that isn't the shortest way to the heading.ie. Turn left heading 123. I turn the heading bug left to get to the heading. This had the benefit of reinforcing the direction of turn in your head. Easy to dismiss as unnecessary when we are talking over the computer, but when in a high workload environment it is an easy enough mistake to make. In one of the aeroplanes I flew the autopilot would take the shortest way there, so even if you turned the bug left but the desired heading was less than 180 degree to the right, it would turn right. So you had to turn the heading bug slowly until the desired heading was within 180 degrees of the actual heading. Buggered if I can remember what aeroplane it was but it was a turboprop or jet but one I have not flown for over 20 years so.

PS tee emm, I took his line "set an attitude on the AH" to mean get the aeroplane to the attitude he wanted I.e. Set the attitude, not set anything to do with a flight director.

framer
23rd Aug 2016, 21:51
In the book it says set an attitude (eg. 12-15 degrees on the a/h) to give the required airspeed for takeoff.
Having a target attitude for rotate is very important. It will serve you well one dark and stormy night in the future. If you are too fast when you get to your target attitude it may mean that your rotate is too slow. ( without knowing the type it is a bit hard to give more info). Tell us the type and then those familiar with it can help out a bit more.
As PM it can get your attention if the PF continues to lift the nose through the target attitude which can then become a minor distraction as you go about raising the gear etc.

VH-FTS
23rd Aug 2016, 22:36
1. Your instructor is 'performance' flying. Sounds like you're 'attitude' flying, which is better. Others above have already described why you're doing the right thing.

2. I'm with your instructor - anticipate and turn the heading bug first. It gives you an excellent visual reference for the turn and let's be honest, takes about 3 seconds at most to do. If it's an outbound to inbound turn, set the bug say 10 seconds before you are due to turn and turn it in the direction you intend to turn.

Another reason I'm big on this is it's preparing you for appropriate autopilot and flight director usage in the future. You might not have these yet, but you will in your career in the not too distant future. If the AP is engaged you will have to turn the bug first. If you're flying just using the flight director, and you don't set the heading bug, you'll be flying opposite to the FD bar indications. The last 3 CAR217 organisations I've worked for have been big on not turning contrary to FD bar indications etc.

3. I'm with das uber soldat, who actually provided the reference too - your instructor is correct with this one. That's unless I'm misunderstanding your discription of events. Are you talking about the timing for the sector entry or timing for the hold - they are two different things and I think a few ppruners have this confused too.



Last thing you need to think about - pprune is full of many opinions, and many are uninformed and based on a lack of knowledge. Don't ever take pprune knowledge as gospel (some might even think I'm full of shite). Sit down with an instructor or two and get them to explain why they want you to do certain things. Just because someone shows you a different way doesn't mean it's wrong. It's up to you to decide what tips/tools you take on board to better your flying.

Snakecharma
23rd Aug 2016, 22:43
FTS

2. I'm with your instructor - anticipate and turn the heading bug first. It gives you an excellent visual reference for the turn and let's be honest, takes about 3 seconds at most to do. If it's an outbound to inbound turn, set the bug say 10 seconds before you are due to turn and turn it in the direction you intend to turn.


I thought his instructor was telling him to turn to the heading and then back it up with the heading bug.

UnderneathTheRadar
23rd Aug 2016, 23:24
For takeoff I've been setting an attitude to try to achieve the desired performance (79kt).

Why are you going faster than 79kts and needing to slow down? You're on the right track when you worry that your altitude will be higher following his method but if you pitch correctly to the desired attitude as you approach 79kts (I'm assuming you're in a small GA and getting airborne and using ground effect to accelerate?) then you'll have the 'most' altitude possible at any given point on your track. It sounds like your rotation rate is too slow or starting too late.

VH-FTS
23rd Aug 2016, 23:51
FTS
I thought his instructor was telling him to turn to the heading and then back it up with the heading bug.

Yep, you're right, must have confused the OP with a reply.

I disagree with the instructor then. Bug first!

High 6
24th Aug 2016, 06:27
The fact that you are questioning things is a good sign. Unfortunately, you will come across instructors from ab initio to heavy jet in your career who feel that being an instructor gives one the right to to add their own interpretations to already established practices and procedures. In many cases these may be good, but can only be taken as a recommendations not as legal and mandated. Where these recommendations are in direct conflict with your understanding, then you should ask them to guide you to the exact reference in the manuals that support their recommendation. With regard to the 3 points raised, the instructor is incorrect on all 3 counts and would have difficulty providing any written evidence to support his teachings.

Centaurus
24th Aug 2016, 14:21
During my type rating training in the 737-200 in NZ the HSI had one operating knob either side on the instrument itself. One to change the course (ILS/VOR)and the other to change the heading. It was my very first simulator trip.

I went to familiarise myself with the two knobs when the screaming clown of a check captain roared at me saying "You change the course knob with your left hand and change the heading knob with your right hand." Or maybe it was the other way around? - I forget. The point being, it was so trivial and didn't matter a brass razoo, anyway
These personalities exist in most flying organisations - unfortunately.:sad:

Car RAMROD
24th Aug 2016, 22:52
Your trainer is probably one of the following two- very experienced and "can do everything at once" and because he is impatient he expects you to do it his way to hurry it all up; or fairly inexperienced as a trainer.
Either way, they don't realise effective ways of teaching people new to the role you are in now. From my own personal experience, I wasn't good at training when I first started it, the temptation is to try and tell them how/when to do things only because you personally would have done that task by then. Flying experience does not equal being a good trainer; it is a skill that must be learnt and refined.

Anyway, re HDG bug. Bug first then turn. The reasons for it have already been mentioned. I would suggest you continue to bug first. Note that there is nothing "wrong" with turning first then bugging, it's in most people's opinion not the best method.
When your trainer mentions it again, bring it up in the debrief. "I bug first to keep my level of situational awareness up. I haven't been taught your method before, what are the benefits? I'll give it a go and see if it suits me." Of course, we all know that you won't change, but you'll at least challenge their method in a good way and might give them an ego boost - it'll give them the chance to try and get their point across. Then they might accept if you don't change, or they'll shut up about it.

Re sector entry timing.
You are both correct, kind of. Outbound timing begins "over or abeam the fix, whichever is later." Your instructor may have forgotten this and just does it over the fix every time. For your sector 1/parallel, just hit the timer as you go overhead, bug, then turn. By the time you've done this, 5 or so seconds will have passed before you turn to parallel the inbound track which gives you more space when turning inbound. Then when the minute is up, bug, then turn inbound. The timing doesn't need to be millisecond accurate. I hate the saying but it will highlight my point "near enough is good enough".
Here's another point in relation to parallel joins that a fair few people forget. You don't have to intercept the inbound, you can turn in and just track direct to the aid. From the AIP "the aircraft is turned... to intercept the inbound track or return to the fix" Put needle on the nose, keep it easy :ok:

julietbravo
25th Aug 2016, 01:09
Really awesome, constructive feedback and opinions. Thank you all for your help and suggestions, I appreciate it.

Centaurus
25th Aug 2016, 02:06
to intercept the inbound track or return to the fix" Put needle on the nose, keep it easy


Which one you use depends if you intend conducting a further hold or going straight into final approach. If the latter, "putting the needle on the nose" may not be appropriate if it means passing over the aid at an angle and after that, requiring a certain amount of weaving around to get stabilised on the final approach inbound track.

Tinstaafl
25th Aug 2016, 03:14
An advantage of intercepting the inbound for a Sector 1/Parallel instead of tracking direct to the fix, is that it gives a chance to assess drift prior to reaching the aid. Useful for the next outbound, or going straight into the approach.

As for the OP:

1. If you rotate at the correct IAS (not always specified) and pitch at the correct rate to the required attitude, you should be at or quite close to the target speed. Usually that's to achieve Vtoss at 50' ie rotate at some speed prior to the Vtoss target, and achieve it at 50'. You shouldn't have to pitch higher initially. Try rotating a bit earlier (if a Vr isn't specified in the manual).

2. Usually it's bug 1st then turn. Not a bad idea to always turn the bug in the correct direction, as someone noted. You then keep a common method whether you or the autopilot is flying. Also when assigned a future heading the procedure remains the same. The bug serves to remind you what HDG you need.

Similarly, you should do the same with an altitude alerter/assigned altitude indicator: Set it when given new altitude, then start the climb or descent.

3. In a hold the timing outbound starts abeam or wings level. In the sector entry it starts when you cross the aid.

Onesixty2four
25th Aug 2016, 11:48
Point one. Set the attitude visually. Back up with insruments. One day, when you need to go onto instruments shortly after T/O, you will have the correct feel for the rate of rotation to give you the performance you desire. Back to basics - power plus pitch gives performance.

Point two. Bug first. When you get a clearance to turn onto a heading, bug it. I did this when I was flying single pilot IFR in a small Piper and I still do it now on Boeings and Airbus. When you bug first, you have an instant reminder of the heading you were cleared to (or that you wanted to go on). Especially Airbus - set heading then pull.

Point three. To be honest, it sounds a little bit retentive. I've always taught (and done) timing at wings level, whether it be entering a hold, or timing an offset to join downwind for a circling app (but don't forget to look out the window!!!). Never, in over a quarter century of flying have I been challenged on this.

To put things in perspective, I was instructing when I had bugger all hours and experience. I'm sure, looking back, I told some of my students some whacky things that now, with another 20 something years under my belt, I would cringe at. Often there is no right or wrong. I do it this way. You do it that way. As long as the outcome is common then we are all in agreement.

But I do like your questioning mind! Keep it up.

framer
25th Aug 2016, 19:47
power plus pitch gives performance.

I remember that statement being bandied about when I was learning to fly. I had a lot on my plate, limitations to remember, law to learn etc etc, I never gave it enough thought. As the years went by it dawned on me that this little saying is everything. You can have all the bells and whistles and instruments and flashing lights you want, the only thing that matters is the above little saying. I have never instructed but if I did I would labour that point complete with recurring practical demonstrations. Maybe some instructors do, mine didn't.

Derfred
26th Aug 2016, 10:30
And if Air France (and/or Airbus) had laboured that point hundreds more people would be alive today...

Just sayin...

Mangi Fokker
28th Aug 2016, 04:46
JulietBravo, you are obviously in the early stages of a commercial flying career. And don't have all the answers, skills and experience that we all hope you one day will have. You are paying for your instruction and you therefore have the right to ask questions. Often these questions are better asked in the pre lesson briefing or the post flight debrief. It is a poor reflection upon you and your character IF you do not explain your concerns to your instructor and ask him to explain why he wants procedures carried out in the way that he does. If you don't provide him with a chance to explain, but start asking other pilot's their opinions, then you are undermining his position and squandering your own money. In order to be a successful airline pilot you need to know the role that is expected of you (SOPS), ask polite, respectful questions when you see things that don't seem correct to you, continue asking questions till you are satisfied with the response or let the other crew member know that you are not satisfied with the response and suggest a course of action. When you reach the airlines, all of this will be taught, explained and practised in regular CRM training sessions. Until that time you should endeavour to be fair in your dealings with all aviation professionals and try to sort problems out at the source without publicising or expanding the disagreement. Goodluck with your career, like all jobs it has it's highs and lows.

julietbravo
28th Aug 2016, 08:08
Thank you for your input mangi fokker and I understand where you are coming from. It may be a poor reflection of my character to some which is fine, but I just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on the matter before approaching him as this is not paid training, it's for a job where I didn't want to give the wrong impression to the check and trainer if I was wrong. The thing is, in my SOPs manual it has the timing begins when the turn onto the reciprocal is complete, it also says that 15-18 degrees will give the required performance, so this forum was purely to seek others opinions on the matter and opening my mind before approaching him about doing things a little differently. Again I do understand where you are coming from though, so thanks.

VH-FTS
29th Aug 2016, 00:31
Thank you for your input mangi fokker and I understand where you are coming from. It may be a poor reflection of my character to some which is fine, but I just wanted to hear other peoples opinions on the matter before approaching him as this is not paid training, it's for a job where I didn't want to give the wrong impression to the check and trainer if I was wrong. The thing is, in my SOPs manual it has the timing begins when the turn onto the reciprocal is complete, it also says that 15-18 degrees will give the required performance, so this forum was purely to seek others opinions on the matter and opening my mind before approaching him about doing things a little differently. Again I do understand where you are coming from though, so thanks.

If it's black and white in the manual then there is no question. If this trainer wishes not to follow simple SOPs like this, then what other procedures are being violated in day to day flying?

Hacker15e
29th Aug 2016, 12:57
I think the most important take-away for the OP is to know and understand the difference between "technique" and "procedure".

Snakecharma
29th Aug 2016, 21:55
Actually hacker, you make an excellent point.

We have a few (well more than a few) blokes who cannot distinguish between technique and policy.

One classic we had/have is we fly a decelerating approach where we start configuring at 3000 and decelerate and configure on the way down the ILS to be stable by 1000'

The book says flap 1(whatever the first flap setting is on the various aeroplanes), flap 2, gear down flap 3 etc etc etc. (insert type appropriate flap setting names).

We have blokes who get bent out of shape if you take the gear first because of where you are in time and space.

They look at you like you have three heads when you ask for gear first.

The policy is you need to be stable at 1000' and if everything is going to plan then you follow the normal sequence of events, but you don't have to if it doesn't suit your situation - you do what you need to do, within the published limitations of the aeroplane, in order to meet the policy limits. This is an example of the difference between technique and policy.

It is a lesson or understanding that some people never get to.

AerocatS2A
31st Aug 2016, 01:33
Snakecharma, I'd certainly get bent out of shape if you took gear out of sequence. I don't care if you take gear at 2500' instead of 2000' but I'd always expect it to be between flap 2 and flap 3 (using your example).

Edit: Are you flying multi-crew or single pilot?

framer
31st Aug 2016, 02:18
If there is an advantage to taking the gear out of sequence and all is within the manufacturers limitations, and there are no issues with high descent rates in IMC or night, what is the problem? I imagine I do it in the 737 about once a year when ATC have changed their mind about something or held us up for traffic etc.
It is a rare occasion when it is advantageous but it does happen and is not unsafe in my opinion. I'm curious as to what the objection is, might we land with the flaps up?

Tankengine
31st Aug 2016, 02:53
Snakecharma, I'd certainly get bent out of shape if you took gear out of sequence. I don't care if you take gear at 2500' instead of 2000' but I'd always expect it to be between flap 2 and flap 3 (using your example).

Edit: Are you flying multi-crew or single pilot?

You are taking the piss aren't you?
If you are high/fast at any stage during approach below max gear speed then I will drop the gear for the drag if I think that is the best option!
Get too bent out of shape about it and we will both discuss in the Chief Pilot's office! ;)

(Heavy jet, 2 crew, left seat)
:)

Snakecharma
31st Aug 2016, 04:14
Aerocat, multi crew, French heavy jet, left hand seat.

Tank engine, I am with you. And I have done it on all manner of aeroplanes from biggish turbo props to numerous jet types as well.

Not sure why you would get bent out of shape if I took the gear early, I am just using the aeroplane to its best advantage to ensure I don't put myself at a disadvantage at the bottom of the approach! The aeroplane doesn't give a rats arse when you out the gear out. (Within the published aircraft from limitations of course)

If you did get bent out of shape I would be disappointed and we would chat about it on the ground but I would expect the gear to go down when I asked for it.

But to return the mildly insulting favour - are YOU flying single pilot or multi crew? And if you are multi crew are you a Capt or FO?

AerocatS2A
31st Aug 2016, 06:04
Ok fair enough. I've never had to do it, never seen anyone do it, and would be very surprised if someone with me did it. Surprises aren't good in multi-crew ops, but if you guys are doing it every now and then I don't suppose it would be that surprising.

I wasn't meaning to insult, just trying to get a handle on the operation. Single pilot and it doesn't really matter what you do, within reason, multi-crew and you want to be predictable.

Left seat multi-crew, for what it's worth, and in a jet with a very effective airbrake which is probably why our experiences differ.

Snakecharma
31st Aug 2016, 06:23
Fair enough Aerocat

I used to do it in the 146 as well :)

AerocatS2A
31st Aug 2016, 06:43
Well, thinking about it there is absolutely no benefit to it in the 146. The limiting speeds are in order of the standard configuration changes, so not surprising I haven't done it or seen anyone do it :ugh:. Disregard my comments.

Ascend Charlie
31st Aug 2016, 06:57
Get back to real basics:

POWER + ATTITUDE = PERFORMANCE.

Set takeoff power. When the bird is ready to fly, set the takeoff attitude. WAIT. The speed will settle close to the climb speed. If not,
CHANGE CHECK ADJUST
Change the attitude, check (physically stop the control movement) and wait for the adjustment to happen.

Attitude is instant, performance takes time. Sounds like your instructor has forgotten the basics. Dump him.