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SASless
18th Aug 2016, 13:37
Texans....things are bigger down there and Texans like to think they are different than most folks.

There is a friendly shoot out going on of late....groups of folks proving they can shoot further than the next guy.

It helps there is plenty of open land where they can do this.

I tip my Hat to them for being able to reliably hit a 36 Inch Target at well over Two Miles with a Rifle......heck...I cannot even see a target that size at Two Miles!


The 4210 Yard Shot (2.4 Miles) ? NEW Record!(Video) ? Guns League (http://gunsleague.com/the-4210-yard-shot-2-4-miles-new-recordvideo/)

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 13:52
And yet with all your guns and shooting prowess the USA manages a single shooting gold medal at Rio :ok:

And that was in the womens 10m air rifle...

Don't try and steal her TV, she'll put a .177 right between your eyes. It might even draw blood!

Krystal n chips
18th Aug 2016, 15:11
" Texans....things are bigger down there and Texans like to think they are different than most folks.

There is a friendly shoot out going on of late....groups of folks proving they can shoot further than the next guy.

So would this be a reprise of Waco then..or the Alamo ?....

tony draper
18th Aug 2016, 15:53
Bah! Tom can do it standing up.:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73hl--IMoWU

angels
18th Aug 2016, 16:44
Not much use hitting a metal target.

Pretty useful when the target has a beard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxNaDi4RKa0

galaxy flyer
18th Aug 2016, 17:14
Hempy,

Look up Kim Rohde, she's been on the medals' platform for six consecutive Olympics in doubles trap and skeet. Every Olympics since she was 16.

Besides, no true American would play with air rifles used at the Olympics--can't kill anything with those toys--must be a wuss

GF

Pontius Navigator
18th Aug 2016, 17:18
How about a head to head with the Russians then :)

NutLoose
18th Aug 2016, 17:19
Pah, this guy can do trick shooting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ABGIJwiGBc

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 17:21
GF I forgot. Sorry.

Our existence doesn't mean diddly unless we are killing something else :ok:

galaxy flyer
18th Aug 2016, 18:53
The amazing thing about Kim is that she is from California (very anti-gun) and has received virtually no coverage and what there has been is scornful. She is the first Summer Olympian to medal in six consecutive Games; tied with a Winter Luge Olympian and the first to win medals on 5 continents. Kim is very outspoken on shooting sports, supports the NRA and Youth Shooting.

GF

radeng
18th Aug 2016, 19:56
Are there any figures available for the number of shooting deaths per thousand deaths in the USA done with legally held weapons - excluding police shootings?

flydive1
18th Aug 2016, 20:46
.I cannot even see a target that size at Two Miles!

Maybe that's why they use a scope?

SASless
18th Aug 2016, 22:00
I am talking with a spotting scope of Sixty Power.

The complexities of ballistics for a Seven Second Time to Target...Winds....Turbulence....Earth Rotation....Air Temp...Density....Elevation....Humidity....Heat Wave.....the Mind boggles!

The key is to think of how accuracy improves as the Range shortens to say a mere mile or so!

That means there is a Military application to this for sure.



Maybe that's why they use a scope?

TWT
18th Aug 2016, 22:10
To achieve that hit,how many attempts did they make ?

If you fire a few hundred rounds,then sooner or later you're bound to get lucky.

SASless
18th Aug 2016, 22:16
Did you watch the Video? Or the two Video's for the 3200 and 3600 Yard shoots?




To achieve that hit,how many attempts did they make ?

If you fire a few hundred rounds,then sooner or later you're bound to get lucky.

TWT
18th Aug 2016, 22:18
No I didn't.That's why I asked how many shots they needed....

Internet speed is low here.Nothing mentioned in the text of the article.Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Chesty Morgan
18th Aug 2016, 22:18
The complexities of ballistics for a Seven Second Time to Target...Winds....Turbulence....Earth Rotation....Air Temp...Density....Elevation....Humidity....Heat Wave.....the Mind boggles!


And luck. Lots of it.

419
18th Aug 2016, 22:27
And luck. Lots of it.
Reminds me of an old saying.
"The more you practice, the luckier you get"

tdracer
19th Aug 2016, 00:14
The complexities of ballistics for a Seven Second Time to Target...Winds....Turbulence....Earth Rotation....Air Temp...Density....Elevation....Humidity....Heat Wave.....the Mind boggles!


A few years ago I took a tour of the USS Missouri, and they showed us the fire control computer. Basically a very sophisticated mechanical computer (remember, we're talking early 1940s technology). For the big 16" main guns you could be talking over 45 seconds time to target, and both the Missouri and the target could be moving.:eek:
It took into account the target course and speed, winds, varying density with altitude (the shells could reach jetliner cruise altitudes), earth rotation, etc. Supposedly properly programed they could drop the shell within a 100 ft. of the intended target at 20 miles :D.
It also took up a rather large room :rolleyes:

Stanwell
19th Aug 2016, 00:34
Two miles .. with military-calibre ammo?
I know that there are some snipers, using .50cal pieces, who've gotten lucky (Afghanistan, for example).
I thought I was doing pretty well to even hit the 6ft target at 500yds.
Rotation of the earth? .. I'd not heard that one before.
.

vapilot2004
19th Aug 2016, 01:20
That is just incredible SAS. Actually two things are incredible here - me liking something you posted and the feat itself. :p

Details from a PR Release of the gun's manufacturer:
EQUIPMENT:
Hill Country Rifle Extreme Long Range Carry Weight 375 CheyTac
Stiller Precision action (Stillers Precision Firearms (http://www.viperactions.com))
Benchmark match, 27” fluted 1:11 twist barrel (http://www.benchmark-barrels.com)
McMillan A3/5 adjustable stock customized by Hill Country Rifle to fit action (https://www.mcmillanusa.com/mcmillan-rifle-stocks/)
Hill Country Rifle Accurizing with aluminum pillar and glass bedded action
Baer Custom trigger guard and 7 round DBM (https://www.lesbaer.com)
Jewell trigger, set 2.0 pounds
Nightforce Beast 5-25X56 Scope (B.E.A.S.T. 5-25x56 F1 | Riflescopes & Sport Optics | Nightforce Optics, Inc. (http://nightforceoptics.com/beast))
Hill Country Rifle custom 200 MOA scope mount with Nightforce 34mm rings
Benchmark Miller Brake for recoil reduction (Benchmark Barrels - Muzzle Brakes (http://benchmark-barrels.com/Benchmark_Barrels/Benchmark_Barrels_-_Muzzle_Brakes.html))

AMMUNITION:
CheyTac 375 precision ammunition with 350 grain match bullets

BALLISTICS:
Muzzle Velocity: 3044 fps with extreme spread of only 6 fps
Ballistic coefficient: .810 G1
Barrel Twist: 1 in 11 inches
Twist Direction: Right
Distance: 3800 yards
Temperature: 86°F
Humidity: 50%
Air Density Altitude: 4280 ft
Wind Speed: 16.5 mph
Wind Angle: 17°
Time of Flight: 8.593 sec
Velocity at target: 850.7 fps
Energy at target: 562.4 ft-lbs

Better than what our military can do, but then they've got ordinance that can kill from quite a long distance. I remember reading about a British fellow that had a confirmed kill from over 2,500 yards in Afghanistan using a high powered rifle, which I believe still stands as a record.

owen meaney
19th Aug 2016, 01:33
Is impressive. My best is at 600 metres using a Parker Hale.

vapilot2004
19th Aug 2016, 01:51
Note to self: Stay on Owen Meaney's good side.

RAT 5
19th Aug 2016, 03:37
What's the flight time over 4200yds? How many critically important stationary targets are there in the real world? Snipers tend to shoot people no bits of card. I suppose it could be fun. Longest I ever did was 300yds .303 open sights. Trouble was shifting winds. It always seemed to slightly different then when the 2 sighters went in.
I wonder what the limit is for this. Couverture of earth, using up downhill/hill ranges to allow longer visuals. What range increase is there, over level, if a downward shot is made? I guess that would depend on the angle. But with this kind of ammo what is the level limit before you need to start elevating the barrel? I know you don't want to get into ballistic trajectories, but there has to be an 'energy' limit for the ammo, and perhaps one where it starts to become unstable and therefore inaccurate.

West Coast
19th Aug 2016, 03:44
Time of Flight: 8.593 sec

tdracer
19th Aug 2016, 04:37
Two miles .. with military-calibre ammo?
Most serious shooters load their own ammo (and yes that includes military snipers). In what I find mildly counter-intuitive, they can get better precision loading their own shells than what machines can do. It's not just the amount of powder, it's things like how tightly the projectile fits into the shell casing.
No, I'm not a shooter, but a couple of the guys I work with are and they love to talk about it...

megan
19th Aug 2016, 05:03
Rotation of the earth? .. I'd not heard that one before.Ballistics 101 Stan.

FM 6-40 Chptr 3 Ballistics FM 6-40 TACTICS, TECHNIQUES, AND PROCEDURES FOR FIELD ARTILLERY MANUAL CANNON GUNNERY (http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/fm6-40-ch3.htm)
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/earth-rotation/

And something to play with

Ballistics and orbits, taking the Earth's rotation into account (http://www.cleonis.nl/physics/ejs/ballistics_simulation.php)

vapilot2004
19th Aug 2016, 05:12
RAT 5 - our big blue ball's curvature is 8" over 2 miles.

Stanwell
19th Aug 2016, 05:43
Thanks for those tips, megan.
I was impressed with tdracer's post, earlier, of the "Mighty Mo" and its gunnery accuracy.
These days, I'm flat out anticipating the trajectory of a .177 slug.

cattletruck
19th Aug 2016, 10:51
I once worked with someone who was doing it for real - Bosnian sniper.

The stories he told were incredible. The stories he told on how to fire a sniper rifle accurately were just as impressive.

SASless
19th Aug 2016, 11:49
Folks that are serious precision shooters are very interesting in the lengths they will go to achieve perfection.

It is a sport that demands total dedication and attention to detail.

I did my share of long range shooting but never got past "Plumber" status as I do not have the dedication to do what is necessary to get beyond that level.

Beer Can sized targets out to six hundred yards was my limit.

A friend and I had plans to build a .30/.338 Rail Gun but sadly he died from a Heatrt Attack and I did not continue with the project. We had a goal to reach out to 800-1000 Yards with that toy.


Most serious shooters load their own ammo (and yes that includes military snipers). In what I find mildly counter-intuitive, they can get better precision loading their own shells than what machines can do. It's not just the amount of powder, it's things like how tightly the projectile fits into the shell casing.
No, I'm not a shooter, but a couple of the guys I work with are and they love to talk about it...

chevvron
19th Aug 2016, 12:58
And yet with all your guns and shooting prowess the USA manages a single shooting gold medal at Rio :ok:

And that was in the womens 10m air rifle...
Don't try and steal her TV, she'll put a .177 right between your eyes. It might even draw blood!


.177/4.5mm target air rifles are limited in power in order to preserve accuracy spitting out a pellet at about 500 ft/sec as opposed to 850-ish from a hunting rifle or higher if you have an FAC.
For 10m target Air Rifle, you have to hit a 0.5 mm bullseye at 10m from a standing position to score 10 points. You are not allowed to use a sling to brace the rifle against your body, nor are you allowed to brace any part of your body against a solid object eg table, chair etc; you are not allowed to use a telescopic sight either.
I had to give up 10m target shooting when my blood pressure increased causing the sight 'picture' to constantly move up and down.

chevvron
19th Aug 2016, 13:03
Two miles .. with military-calibre ammo?
I know that there are some snipers, using .50cal pieces, who've gotten lucky (Afghanistan, for example).
I thought I was doing pretty well to even hit the 6ft target at 500yds.
Rotation of the earth? .. I'd not heard that one before.
.
A British sniper in Helmand, using an 8.59 mm sniper rifle, took out 6 Taliban with one shot. He spotted them over a mile away and fired at the leader, who happened to be wearing a suicide vest. The resulting explosion took out all 6 of them.
My best 'full bore' (7.62mm) score is 35/50 at 600 yds on the Century Range at Bisley.

SASless
19th Aug 2016, 13:17
Hempy.....do get your facts straight.

I know that is not your strong suit...but you should at least try.

There is that young Lady, American, who has taken the Gold in three of the past Six Olympics straight, shooting Clay Birds and took Medals all Six Olympics.

Your slagging off all things American gets old and shows you to be quite the Bore.

There is a separate thread here at JB for that.....how about going there where at least you will be on topic and welcome....unlike you are in this Thread.

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582973-i-hate-americans-guns-etc-sponge-absorbing-hatred.html

Hempy
19th Aug 2016, 15:51
Jeez you lot are so easy to wind up :ok:

For those with 'reading challenges', let me repeat my original statementat Rio

Thanks for the history lesson though. I think you'll also find that your team also did well at the Antwerp 1920 games.

Considering that the USA is the only country in the world where there are more guns than people, I just expected that you'd actually be good at shooting and sweeping the field in pistol, rifle and shotgun, that's all :ok:

57mm
19th Aug 2016, 15:53
48/50 at 500yd at Bisley with a .303 SMLE for me, but that was a very long time ago.....

RAT 5
19th Aug 2016, 16:32
Considering that the USA is the only country in the world where there are more guns than people,

So why don't the yanks win the guns and the Dutch the bikes? Maybe because they do it just for fun? And why is there no 'gunslinger' olympics? Isn't that what the yanks wanabee? Everyone is a Clint. They have fencing. Anyone can shoot a stupid animal, but looking into the eyes of your opponent is different. There are all the different unpronounceable martial arts at every weight. Look in to the eyes. So why not drawn six guns? Fencing is an old art; what happened to duelling? The price is the winner of the lady's 100m; or is that sexist?

SASless
19th Aug 2016, 17:02
This isn't the best up Americans thread...take it to the dedicated Thread for that would you?



Considering that the USA is the only country in the world where there are more guns than people,

So why don't the yanks win the guns and the Dutch the bikes? Maybe because they do it just for fun? And why is there no 'gunslinger' olympics? Isn't that what the yanks wanabee? Everyone is a Clint. They have fencing. Anyone can shoot a stupid animal, but looking into the eyes of your opponent is different. There are all the different unpronounceable martial arts at every weight. Look in to the eyes. So why not drawn six guns? Fencing is an old art; what happened to duelling? The price is the winner of the lady's 100m; or is that sexist?

Out Of Trim
19th Aug 2016, 17:47
The current record is held by Briton Corporal of Horse (CoH) Craig Harrison, of the UK’s Household Cavalry, who recorded a 2,475 m (2,707 yd) shot (confirmed by GPS) in November 2009, also during the War in Afghanistan, in which he hit two Taliban insurgents consecutively.[6] CoH Harrison killed the two Taliban machine gunners with shots that took the 8.59 mm rounds almost five seconds to hit their targets, which were 914 metres (1,000 yd) beyond the L115A3 sniper rifle’s recommended range. A third shot took out the insurgents' machine gun. The rifle used was made by Accuracy International.

lomapaseo
19th Aug 2016, 19:33
And yet with all your guns and shooting prowess the USA manages a single shooting gold medal at Rio

Back home we make up for shaky hands with quantity of lead dispersed per sq foot.

That's why our drive by shootings are effective ... if you count collateral damage

Eric T Cartman
20th Aug 2016, 05:50
Regarding curvature of the earth in this subject : if I may relate this to aviation [sorry, I know this is Jet Blast ;-) ], in the 80's, a new survey of obstacles was done for a certain UK airport. A revised height of a power station chimney allowed a useful drop of the minimum radar altitude for the area from 1800 to 1700 ft., which was done. A while later, a new surveyor was employed who, on checking the data, found that the chimney had not shrunk, rather that the initial survey had failed to take into account the earth's curvature, so introducing an error of some 4 ft, just enough to trigger a change of criteria, so the min alt went back to 1800ft.
On a different tack, in the 2007 movie "Shooter", at about 16 minutes in, Mark Wahlberg talks about the criteria for making a long range shot ......

PLovett
20th Aug 2016, 06:29
The current record is held by Briton Corporal of Horse (CoH) Craig Harrison, of the UK’s Household Cavalry, who recorded a 2,475 m (2,707 yd) shot (confirmed by GPS) in November 2009, also during the War in Afghanistan, in which he hit two Taliban insurgents consecutively.[6] CoH Harrison killed the two Taliban machine gunners with shots that took the 8.59 mm rounds almost five seconds to hit their targets, which were 914 metres (1,000 yd) beyond the L115A3 sniper rifle’s recommended range. A third shot took out the insurgents' machine gun. The rifle used was made by Accuracy International.

Having his book to hand it should also be mentioned that the shots were well outside the adjustment of the scope and it took several shots to work out how much he had to hold over and off to get the shots on target. They were most certainly not "one shot, one kill".

However, SASless, your opening post shows some remarkable shooting skills and I am not surprised the rifle was a CheyTac as they have been working on some very long range guns. ISTR that it was a CheyTac used in the film "Shooter" although a different caliber to the one you have referred to.

Pontius Navigator
20th Aug 2016, 07:31
Two miles .. with military-calibre ammo?
I know that there are some snipers, using .50cal pieces, who've gotten lucky (Afghanistan, for example).
I thought I was doing pretty well to even hit the 6ft target at 500yds.
Rotation of the earth? .. I'd not heard that one before.
.
Coriolis.

You might also add anomalous propagation, ie light refraction from atmospherics.

Hydromet
20th Aug 2016, 08:30
Coriolis. Indeed. The example of canon fired from a pole or the equator was used to explain Coriolis Effect in my first Atmospheric Physics course.

Megan, thanks for those references - most interesting.

Chesty Morgan
20th Aug 2016, 09:39
Having his book to hand it should also be mentioned that the shots were well outside the adjustment of the scope and it took several shots to work out how much he had to hold over and off to get the shots on target. They were most certainly not "one shot, one kill".

However, SASless, your opening post shows some remarkable shooting skills and I am not surprised the rifle was a CheyTac as they have been working on some very long range guns. ISTR that it was a CheyTac used in the film "Shooter" although a different caliber to the one you have referred to.

Briton bad. American good. :rolleyes:

SASless
20th Aug 2016, 11:32
There was never a "One Shot... One Kill" claim made.

That pertains to Military Sniping as one does not "Kill" Metal Targets at any Range.

The purpose of the Post was to discuss long range precision shooting.....not "long range Precision Killing".

Of interest to me was the melding of Engineering, Ballistics, Science, and shooting skills to achieve such an impressive result.

The job is not done yet and they are continuing to work on improving the Results.

That there are People who engage in challenges such as this....and other people who have the land holdings to facilitate such long range shooting is unusual as well.

Barrett held the Title for Years with the .50 Caliber, then later the .416 came along and began to displace the .50's.

Military Sniping in Counter Terrorism combat has come into common use and precision at longer ranges by those Snipers is a direct result of the advances made by the Shooters who seek the real limits of long range shooting.

I suppose if one can reliably hit a Three Foot Target at Two and a half Miles....that means in time hitting a One Foot and a half Target at One Mile and a Quarter becomes feasible which in Military Terms is a tremendous advantage to the ability of Snipers to provide Over Watch and selective removal of hostile threats.

How one defends against that capability is very difficult.

chevvron
20th Aug 2016, 12:28
I'm sure I read a report once of an incident in the American Civil War. A soldier was detailed to try to kill a Confederate General, but he was only equipped with a smoothbore musket, so he decided to take a sighting shot at a tent. He carefully aimed and squeezed off the shot. Just after he did so, the general he was supposed to kill appeared at the entrance to the tent and the shot killed him!
I've probably got some of this wrong but the report I read said it did happen.

larssnowpharter
20th Aug 2016, 13:41
People may find it interesting to note that Accuracy International who manufacture many of the best long range rifles in the World is, in fact, a British company.

SASless
20th Aug 2016, 14:24
The Russians do a pretty good job of it as well in a Farm Tractor approach of sorts.

Where in the UK would One be able to shoot 2.5 Statute Miles with official blessing?

The next question would finding the climatic conditions that would allow one to see that far, without the presence of Wind and Rain at the same time.

This quote from Wiki remains One of the complexities of this kind of shooting....something as simple as Scope Adjustment specifications generate problem at very long ranges....there might not be a way to get a proper adjustment per click that allows for the needed shift in strike to sight hold.


The external ballistics software program by JBM Ballistics predicts that the bullets of British high pressure .338 Lapua Magnum cartridges using 16.2 g (250 gr) Lapua LockBase B408 bullets fired at 936 m/s (3,071 ft/s) muzzle velocity under International Standard Atmosphere conditions at 1,043 m (3,422 ft) elevation (air density ρ = 1.1069 kg/m3) and assuming a flat fire scenario (a situation where the shooting and target positions are at equal elevation) and a 100 m (109 yd) zero (the distance at which the rifle is sighted in) arrive at 2,475 m (2,707 yd) distance after approximately 6.017 seconds flight time at 251.8 m/s (826 ft/s) velocity and have dropped 120.95 m (396.8 ft) or in angular units 48.9 milliradian (168 MOA) on their way. Harrison had to use the P4 reticle offering 0.5 mil spaced holdover hash marks in his 5-25×56 telescopic sight to compensate for the lack of vertical aiming correction and thus achieve the required aiming solution. The long horizontal line at 5× zoom or magnification represent 49.09 milliradian (168.6 MOA) or slightly over the required assumed vertical elevation.

Big Game Hunters are sometimes confronted with shots that involve a half to a full Meter drop....which pales in comparison to the 121 Meter drop Harrison had to deal with.

De_flieger
20th Aug 2016, 14:31
Definitely an interesting video there, well put together.

VP959
20th Aug 2016, 15:16
Big Game Hunters are sometimes confronted with shots that involve a half to a full Meter drop....which pales in comparison to the 121 Meter drop Harrison had to deal with.

Sort of reminds me of a time, many years ago, when I was given an old Sten gun, and a load of ammunition, that had been stored wrapped in oily cloth in a loft since some time in the very early 1950's (it had been "liberated" my my ex-father-in-law).

When I got it I stripped it and found the extractor pin damaged, but the machine shop at work were able to make a new one. I'd been warned not to fire it, as it "jumped up a bit", I was told. Needless to say, being young and foolish I took it out to some waste ground and had a go.

"Jumped up a bit" was an understatement. I reckon it elevated around 10 deg with every round fired, even with me trying to hold the thing down!

It was the antithesis of the superb guns in this thread. I reckon anyone could knock one up in their shed - it was cruder than the AK47, and carrying one of those is like carrying an empty tin full of nails that rattle around............

Pontius Navigator
20th Aug 2016, 15:20
're-earth rotation and coriolis, simples, ensure the target is east or west of you.

SASless
20th Aug 2016, 15:26
Exactly East/West all year around?

And if you are shooting steel cored Armor Piercing Bullets....would it matter if it is True or Magnetic East/West for calculations?

lomapaseo
20th Aug 2016, 16:47
Doesn't the screw effect of the rifling cancel out coriolis depending on whether you are above or below the equator?

Possibly this could cancel out the effect if you purchased the correct rifle with right hand or left handed thread

Pontius Navigator
20th Aug 2016, 20:34
Basil, correct but also worked in the visual spectrum. We used to look at the Isle of Man from 65 miles away whilst on the beach. There was clear sky underneath.

Pontius Navigator
20th Aug 2016, 20:42
Exactly East/West all year around?

And if you are shooting steel cored Armor Piercing Bullets....would it matter if it is True or Magnetic East/West for calculations?
True, magnetic applies only to earth field and not earth rotation. It seems that east/west would also affect the range.

RAT 5
20th Aug 2016, 20:49
Possibly this could cancel out the effect if you purchased the correct rifle with right hand or left handed thread

And what would be the effect if you were left handed and squinting through your left eye, and firing on a south facing range instead of as north facing one?

SASless
20th Aug 2016, 21:06
It seems that east/west would also affect the range.

Thus time of flight would be different as well as the Bullet Drop....but what effect would it have on Velocity?

tdracer
20th Aug 2016, 23:49
"Jumped up a bit" was an understatement. I reckon it elevated around 10 deg with every round fired, even with me trying to hold the thing down!


Watched a show a while back about the history of (US) military firearms. Apparently after WWII they made a fully automatic version of the M1 Garrand. It's wasn't very successful, the comment being something like ' first shot on target, second shot over everyone's head, third shot only useful as anti-aircraft'.

G-CPTN
20th Aug 2016, 23:54
I was given an old Sten gun, and a load of ammunition,
I'd been warned not to fire it, as it "jumped up a bit", I was told. Needless to say, being young and foolish I took it out to some waste ground and had a go.
"Jumped up a bit" was an understatement. I reckon it elevated around 10 deg with every round fired, even with me trying to hold the thing down!
they made a fully automatic version of the M1 Garrand. It's wasn't very successful, the comment being something like ' first shot on target, second shot over everyone's head, third shot only useful as anti-aircraft'.

Maybe they should have incorporated a 'treadle' cable from the end of the barrel to a stirrup under the shooter's foot?

SASless
21st Aug 2016, 00:26
TD,

Are you referring to the M-14 which was the follow on to the M-1?

The M-14 on Automatic did very much like to work its way Skywards!

The M-1 had an internal 8 Round Clip that fed from the Top and the M-14 had a 20 Round Box Magazine that feeds from the bottom much like the FN SLR.

I own a 1950's M-1 and a brand new M1A (Semi-Auto version of the M-14) which I enjoy shooting.

megan
21st Aug 2016, 02:14
It seems that east/west would also affect the rangeThe phenomenon that actually affect the vertical component of the trajectory is called Eötvös Effect. The rotation of the Earth generates a centrifugal force, the same that pushes you to the side when you make a sharp turn with your car. This force act perpendicular to the Earth rotatory axis, adding or subtracting to the gravity force. When an object flies eastward, in the same direction of Earth’s rotation, centrifugal force acts opposite of gravity, pushing it away from the Earth’s surface. If the object flies westward, in the opposite direction of the Earth rotation, centrifugal force pushes the object toward the ground concurrently to gravity force. Thus, bullets fired to the east always fly a little higher, and, conversely, bullets fired to the west always travel somewhat low.

The amount of drop change is in function of:

Latitude – The linear velocity of a point on the Earth’s surface, and thus the amount of centrifugal force, is maximum at the equator and decreases going toward the poles, where it is null.

Shooting direction, or azimuth – The amount of drop change is highest when shooting east or west, and as the trajectory angles north or south, the amount of drop change decreases, becoming null, as the angle points toward either pole.

Muzzle velocity – The amount of centrifugal force is determined by the speed of the flying object.

To give an idea how the Eötvös effect alters a trajectory, here’s an example. Let’s say you’re firing a .308 175gr bullet, with a muzzle velocity of 2700fps, from a latitude of 45°. The drop at 1000yds will be 392 inches, shooting either to the north or south (without error). Shooting with an azimuth of 90°, or eastward, the drop will be 388in. Shooting with an azimuth of 270°, or westward, the drop will be 396in. In either case, there is a total change in drop of 4in. An easy assumption is to predict that, when shooting with an intermediate azimuth, that the drop change will be linear. This is incorrect. Instead of a 2in change for an azimuth of 45°, the error is a function of the sine of the azimuth angle. This essentially means that you have half the error at 30° rather than at 45°. Changes in latitude have a minimal effect, since at the equator, where the effect is greatest, the error would be 5in, only one inch more than the error we calculated at 45° latitude.

Hempy
21st Aug 2016, 02:35
Got your cut and paste skills working a treat there megan :ok:

https://thearmsguide.com/5329/external-ballistics-the-coriolis-effect-6-theory-section/

megan
21st Aug 2016, 02:57
Bully for you me lad, shows you know how to do a Giggle, well done. :ok: I actually copied it from a word document I had (which I obviously obtained from the net) when I was investigating the Eötvös effect as applied to supersonic aircraft - Concorde and SR-71. The effect on weight, as opposed to mass, is quite considerable.

Should you care to do another Giggle you'll find on the net where I made the very same Eötvös reference at 17:43, 30th Sep 2014.

tdracer
21st Aug 2016, 03:43
TD,

Are you referring to the M-14 which was the follow on to the M-1?

The M-14 on Automatic did very much like to work its way Skywards!

The M-1 had an internal 8 Round Clip that fed from the Top and the M-14 had a 20 Round Box Magazine that feeds from the bottom much like the FN SLR.

I own a 1950's M-1 and a brand new M1A (Semi-Auto version of the M-14) which I enjoy shooting.


Yep, M-14 (I was thinking it was the M-14 when I wrote that post but I wasn't sure). I don't currently own a firearm (I have an air rifle that I sometimes use to plink empty cans and the odd rodent), but I would like to get my hands on a WWII vintage M-1 Garrand. I've looked at a few but they were all Korean war vintage and really trashed.

VP959
21st Aug 2016, 08:20
Watched a show a while back about the history of (US) military firearms. Apparently after WWII they made a fully automatic version of the M1 Garrand. It's wasn't very successful, the comment being something like ' first shot on target, second shot over everyone's head, third shot only useful as anti-aircraft'.
When I mentioned the way the gun jumped to my ex-father in law, he said they'd be taught to fire it at the enemies feet, and with luck the second shot might hit. I remember that after firing around 5 or 6 rounds off the gun was pointing skywards, and that was with my left hand on the mag trying damned hard to push the thing down.

Stanwell
21st Aug 2016, 09:07
The Australian 9mm Owen Machine Carbine shared those characteristics.
It was designed with a 'Cutts Compensator' at the muzzle in an attempt to mitigate that effect.
A beautiful weapon for what it was designed to do.
The reality of it was, though, that if you used anything more than three-round bursts, you'd be shooting birds out of trees.
.

nomorecatering
21st Aug 2016, 09:25
Sorry to upset the Brits, an Australian SAS soldier from Holsworthy Barracks now has the record. 3079 yards or 2815m.

The Australian army has confirmed it happened and the distance ut wont say who it was.

Australian Sniper Kill At 3079 yards - The Firearm Blog (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/11/14/australian-sniper-kill-at-3079-yards/)

megan
21st Aug 2016, 09:35
Done a search to no avail. What is the physics behind the barrel "climbing" as you fire?

andytug
21st Aug 2016, 10:18
Done a search to no avail. What is the physics behind the barrel "climbing" as you fire?

If the force of the recoil acts above the centre of gravity of the gun, it will cause rotation backwards around the centre of gravity. For an automatic multiply by number of shots in a short time and it will go up very quickly!

VP959
21st Aug 2016, 10:26
If the force of the recoil acts above the centre of gravity of the gun, it will cause rotation backwards around the centre of gravity. For an automatic multiply by number of shots in a short time and it will go up very quickly!
Exactly. The geometry of the sten has the barrel and very heavy bolt way above the bracing point on the light weight stock. To add to the problem the gun is very lightweight and has virtually no mass in the skeleton stock. The consequence is that there is a very high moment acting to rotate the gun upwards, about the point where it's braced, several inches below the recoil force.

The flash hider that was fitted to the version I had for a short time was shaped like an offset funnel, with the wide end pointing upwards. I had wondered if it was also intended to counteract the tendency to lift, by directing gases upwards at the muzzle.

The other problem I found with the thing was that there is no proper right hand grip, only the magazine that sticks out to the left. As mentioned above, you do not want to get your left hand too hard over to the right as it can catch the slide.

For those concerned about the legality, the Sten I had was illegal and once I'd got it working and fired it a few times I sold it to a collector, who had it deactivated and it now decorates the wall of a pub in Cornwall.

Pontius Navigator
21st Aug 2016, 11:28
Thus time of flight would be different as well as the Bullet Drop....but what effect would it have on Velocity?
Velocity is relative.

Pontius Navigator
21st Aug 2016, 11:32
Bully for you me lad, shows you know how to do a Giggle, well done. :ok: I actually copied it from a word document I had (which I obviously obtained from the net) when I was investigating the Eötvös effect as applied to supersonic aircraft - Concorde and SR-71. The effect on weight, as opposed to mass, is quite considerable.

Should you care to do another Giggle you'll find on the net where I made the very same Eötvös reference at 17:43, 30th Sep 2014.
And this is the vertical component to Coriolis.

Pontius Navigator
21st Aug 2016, 11:37
I found the Sterling, in contrast to the Stem, practically dead. If you fired with no bullet the force of the bolt pulled the gun down. With a bullet the effects cancelled out. Loved it.

PLovett
21st Aug 2016, 12:04
Sorry to upset the Brits, an Australian SAS soldier from Holsworthy Barracks now has the record. 3079 yards or 2815m.

The Australian army has confirmed it happened and the distance ut wont say who it was.

Australian Sniper Kill At 3079 yards - The Firearm Blog

This rumour has been floating around for some time now and your citation is certainly not a confirmed source and as far as I know the SASR are not at Holesworthy Barracks. Treat with a pinch of salt.

chevvron
21st Aug 2016, 12:24
I was a 14 year old cadet when I first fired a Sten. Everyone firing had a 'shadow' ready to snatch it from him if it 'ran away' as sometimes when you released the trigger, it would continue to fire.

megan
21st Aug 2016, 12:45
And this is the vertical component to CoriolisAn engaging read on the subject PN, on water flow, and problems of artificial gravity in space (endnote 34), I found particularly interesting.

http://empslocal.ex.ac.uk/people/staff/gv219/classics.d/persson_on_coriolis05.pdfSASR are not at Holesworthy Barracks2nd Commando?

glad rag
21st Aug 2016, 17:40
oQpsicy3xbc

Fareastdriver
21st Aug 2016, 18:56
I was a 14 year old cadet when I first fired a Sten. Everyone firing had a 'shadow' ready to snatch it from him if it 'ran away' as sometimes when you released the trigger, it would continue to fire.

Apparently the best way to get rid of a roomful of Germans during the War was to throw in a loaded Sten and lock the door.

Stanwell
21st Aug 2016, 22:20
FED,
You cracked me up with that one. :D

chevvron
21st Aug 2016, 22:57
Apparently the best way to get rid of a roomful of Germans during the War was to throw in a loaded Sten and lock the door.
I heard it was the Japanese; you had to cock it first though.

Tourist
22nd Aug 2016, 05:23
I worry about the fact that the author of the webpage linked in the OP is allowed guns but can barely write...

SASless
22nd Aug 2016, 12:41
I suppose you worry anyone owns a gun much less enjoys using them.....in completely legal activities.

Isn't that really what bothers you ?



I worry about the fact that the author of the webpage linked in the OP is allowed guns but can barely write...

Stanwell
22nd Aug 2016, 12:53
I think you're reading a bit much into that one, SASless.
The fact is, I know a few people who are barely literate, yet are brilliant at what they do.
On the other hand, a little bit of thought is required when handling deadly weapons.
See what I'm getting at there?

KenV
22nd Aug 2016, 12:57
I worry about the fact that the author of the webpage linked in the OP is allowed guns.....Worry? About what? He lives in another nation separated by an ocean.

Allowed? Sure over there its a privilege, granted to a few. Here, it's a civil right, and a birthright of every citizen.

KenV
22nd Aug 2016, 13:01
The fact is, I know a few people who are barely literate, yet are brilliant at what they do. On the other hand, a little bit of thought is required when handling deadly weapons. Indeed. And a LOT of "thought" is needed to do it at the ranges described in the OP. Such "thought" may or may not translate into good writing skills. In any event, good writing skills are not required to exercise a civil right.

Stanwell
22nd Aug 2016, 13:14
Ken,
Please not's let "civil rights" come onto this thread. Please?

SASless
22nd Aug 2016, 14:04
What does Writing Skills have to do with Commonsense?

I would suggest I have seen some very dangerous thinking by some highly educated people with excellent writing skills. That is frequently on display right here at JB.



I think you're reading a bit much into that one, SASless.
The fact is, I know a few people who are barely literate, yet are brilliant at what they do.
On the other hand, a little bit of thought is required when handling deadly weapons.
See what I'm getting at there?

Pontius Navigator
22nd Aug 2016, 16:01
I heard it was the Japanese; you had to cock it first though.
No need to cock a Sten. Dropping it gently, butt first, was quite sufficient. The only safe Sten was one with the magazine removed, breech empty AND firing bolt removed. Leave the bolt in and you could still mash a finger.

KenV
22nd Aug 2016, 17:37
Ken, Please not's let "civil rights" come onto this thread. Please? If you bring up guns and gun owners in the USA, I will remind you that such ownership is a civil right in the USA. If you have a problem such a civil right, you are welcome to stay on your side of the pond.

Further, if you express an irrational fear of guns or gun owners in the USA, I will be happy to point out/question such irrational behavior.

lomapaseo
22nd Aug 2016, 17:38
Wasn't it a Sten that made the Butcher of Prague, Heydrich, flinch just by the sound of it clicking?

Stanwell
22nd Aug 2016, 18:51
Might have caused him to flinch.
But, of course, the thing f**ked up and they had to throw something at him, instead.
An unsavoury character, that one.
Now, if only they'd used somebody competent behind a No.1 Mk.3 SMLE, the scene might have been a little less messy.
.

Rosevidney1
22nd Aug 2016, 20:48
Perhaps a rifle is harder to hide on the streets of a city than a small el-cheepo sub machine gun that readily comes to bits?

SASless
22nd Aug 2016, 21:03
When the Bomb went to bits....it made Heydrich flinch.

Pontius Navigator
22nd Aug 2016, 21:07
If you bring up guns and gun owners in the USA, I will remind you that such ownership is a civil right in the USA. If you have a problem such a civil right, you are welcome to stay on your side of the pond.

Further, if you express an irrational fear of guns or gun owners in the USA, I will be happy to point out/question such irrational behavior.
I wonder whether Brits join the club if they take up residence in Florida? I certainly wouldn't want to stand on a principle if there was an armed threat.