Where is the Cobham/AMSA SAR Challenger 604???

[TwistedWindsock]

There seems to be no reports coming from AMSA nor media regarding the failed start of the Cobham Challenger 604 in Perth. With the Dornier gone what asset is ready to respond to a major SAR off WA? Has anyone got any information regarding a proposed start or what is happening?

[onetrack]

Does this link help? VH-XNC arrives YPPH on Sunday 7th August, ready to start work on the specified contract date, Monday 8th August, 2016.

VH-XNC Bombardier CL-600-2B16 Challenger 604 (MSN 5619) of Surveillance Australia Pty Ltd (Cobham SAR Services Pty Ltd), at Perth Airport, Sun 7 August 2016. (http://www.aviationwa.org.au/aircraft-photos-movements/august-2016/20160807_vh-xnc_steve_jaksic_2/)

[Hempy]

Read: I got knocked by Cobham. Please respond with your gripes here so that we can hook up later.

[TwistedWindsock]

Read: I got knocked by Cobham. Please respond with your gripes here so that we can hook up later.
You've got that completely wrong. Do you assume that anyone who has a concern over SAR in WA is a disgruntled applicant? Nice effort to shut down an important question.

[Code.name]

I believe they will only be using the 604 as a static display....

[Supermouse3]

Execujet...
and currently doing drop training/ line training for full scale 24h search and rescue exercise in September..

I believe there are pilots checked to line and the aircraft is available for SAR, but at the moment the focus is on getting everyone checked to line...
i also expect the RAAF P3's probably cover SAR too..

[Code.name]

Execujet...
and currently doing drop training/ line training for full scale 24h search and rescue exercise in September..

I believe there are pilots checked to line and the aircraft is available for SAR, but at the moment the focus is on getting everyone checked to line...
i also expect the RAAF P3's probably cover SAR too..

Shouldn't the "focus" be on finding the missing person off WA?

[Dashunder]

There seems to be no reports coming from AMSA nor media regarding the failed start of the Cobham Challenger 604 in Perth. With the Dornier gone what asset is ready to respond to a major SAR off WA? Has anyone got any information regarding a proposed start or what is happening?

No reports exactly because there are no reports. One needs to do something to make reports something Cobham and the Challenger hasn't done.

[thorn bird]

Be interesting to see in a year or so's time just how cost effective the squillions being spent
have been. Then again effective and cost don't register in Pollies minds. As long as it looks good.

[fedba]

Yep, no 604 out for the search off Carnarvon, that says it all.

[aussie027]

The search for the missing 40 yo fisherman 60nm west of Shark bay has been called off yesterday.
he was last seen 1am on Mon nite, at 630am he was found to be missing.
Media reported numerous aircraft used in search, types not reported.

Poor fellow did not have a life jacket on as all are accounted for on board apparently. Tragic.

As for what aircraft resources AMSA was able to mobilize if the 604 was grounded in Perth is unknown.

[Dashunder]

Still no coverage in the West and the Challenger is in Adelaide, go figure....must be to replace that engine cowl.

[Badengo]

Still no coverage in the West and the Challenger is in Adelaide, go figure....must be to replace that engine cowl.

Actually it did drops most of today down south.

[Dashunder]

Actually it did drops most of today down south.

They can drop all they like in training scenarios, when it comes to live dropping though, it ain't happening at the moment. Having said that still no coverage for the west. How long can this last.

[Badengo]

They can drop all they like in training scenarios, when it comes to live dropping though, it ain't happening at the moment. Having said that still no coverage for the west. How long can this last.

Lol so you're saying training is pointless?:/ I'm sure they will do exactly as you said to fine tune themselves and the systems.

****box dornier went offline many times, even right up until the end of Perth base, especially at the beginning of their contract.

Don't be such a hater. Change is good. Cobham have a HUGE backing, and Pearl....well they're outta here!

[FMTAfterburn]

Lol so you're saying training is pointless?:/ I'm sure they will do exactly as you said to fine tune themselves and the systems.

****box dornier went offline many times, even right up until the end of Perth base, especially at the beginning of their contract.

Don't be such a hater. Change is good. Cobham have a HUGE backing, and Pearl....well they're outta here!

Positive change is good, But wake up, you call the Dornier a **** box? This challenger aeroplane was supposed to be online weeks ago, and still a month to go,so how does that huge backing work? The five Dorniers were on time with crew and equipment on day 1. Its sad that you propose to accept this deficiency as a norm. Seems like you are hating, whatever, mediocre Australia

[FMTAfterburn]

Positive change is good, But wake up, you call the Dornier a **** box? This challenger aeroplane was supposed to be online weeks ago, and still a month to go,so how does that huge backing work? The five Dorniers were on time with crew and equipment on day 1. Its sad that you propose to accept this deficiency as a norm. Seems like you are hating, whatever, mediocre Australia

Furthermore, if you added up all the unscheduled downtime for 4 Dorniers in the last 12 months you won't get 6 weeks, which is at least the amount of time the first jet will be unavailable, brilliant performance eh.jeez

[Badengo]

The AW139s that are on their way will help out a lot too.

[Dashunder]

Lol so you're saying training is pointless?:/ I'm sure they will do exactly as you said to fine tune themselves and the systems.

****box dornier went offline many times, even right up until the end of Perth base, especially at the beginning of their contract.

Don't be such a hater. Change is good. Cobham have a HUGE backing, and Pearl....well they're outta here!
Read my post, I didn't say training was pointless and never will, what I was saying has now been covered by FMT, and definately not a hater, what my concern is, is that they have known for nearly 2 years that Perth base was due to commission on the 7th August 2016 and they haven't achieved that, yes Cobham have a huge backing, you would think that with this huge backing they would be able to achieve this, something Pearl did get right!!

[Badengo]

Perth base was never commissioned to be mission ready only training. Dorniers still flying the contract elsewhere and available if needed.

[pithblot]

Well then it's a thing Pearl didn't farm the Door Knockers out at the end of their contract.

[BAT74]

The sad fact is the Australian tax payer is being duped. AMSA chose a dud platform. The most likely reason the Challenger is not online is because of lack of approval from CASA. Multiple strikes along the fuselage isn't good. It's a definite concern however it is not Cobham's problem. Cobham held up the shiny slick bid and AMSA took it. AMSA will eventually realise they no longer run the contract. Heads will roll. Soon AMSA will be overrun by former Cobham employees and there will be no turning back. Just ask Customs.

[TwistedWindsock]

The AW139s that are on their way will help out a lot too.

Not more than 100nm off the coast or inland they won't!

[TwistedWindsock]

Perth base was never commissioned to be mission ready only training. Dorniers still flying the contract elsewhere and available if needed.

You really have drunk the Kool Ade. That is absolute rubbish.

[FMTAfterburn]

Badengo,your new to this aren't you? Why would anyone contract an aircraft for training only? A contract means you start providing an agreed service at an agreed time.

[aussie027]

Given the recurring issues with dropping stores and the limited size and weight (from what is being said here) of stores that can be dropped maybe the Do -328Jet might have been a better aircraft option than a C604 or other rear engine biz jet.

T tail for clearance when dropping stores, similar systems to Do t/prop and readily available P& W 300 series engines.
Was a limited production run aircraft at 110 copies but still in use with numerous operators and this is a specialist role requiring a modified aircraft anyway.

Maybe a bit slow though for transit with a max speed of approx 400kts compared to approx 320kt (?)for the t/prop.

(Can't think of any other jet in that size range with 2 wing mounted engines and T tail )

Just a thought but one that was probably considered and rejected on cost grounds since the 604 is a lot smaller and no doubt cheaper to operate to maximize profits on the contract.

After all,.... its all about min cost & max profit,.... like everything else nowadays.......never mind about choosing equipment that can easily fill the role and do the job without basic fundamental issues,...to help save lives !!!
( sorry, the cynic came out at the end there):E

[Dashunder]

AMSA may consider termination for any material non-performance or underperformance of the services. For example, AMSA would consider any of the following circumstances to give rise to
material breaches of a resultant contract:

Availability Rolling Period
Average availability across all bases 85% or greater to less than 95% - 6 months

Average availability across all bases 75% or greater to less than 85% - 4 months

Average availability across all bases less than 75% - 3 months

Availability at any one, or more, bases less than 75% - 3 months

Its this last one that will come into consideration in October!!
Interesting days ahead.

[Desert Flower]

XNC was doing extensive aerial work out of YBHI a few weeks ago. Also apparently down in the SE of SA for a while too according to my sources. Since it was apparent that they weren't actually looking for anything (i.e. a downed aircraft), I assumed it was some sort of exercise.

DF.

[Dashunder]

Definately not looking for a downed aircraft, because there AOC doesn't allow them to conduct live SAR.

[Badengo]

XNC is the training rig with first prototype drop chute system. Has been flying it's arse off here! Cameras all over the airframe capturing every drop to fine tune the system that has been chosen.

No AOC issues either, the aircraft is experimental...because it's just that, first of type with extensive modifications.

Operational flying starts beginning of September. As always planned.

[Badengo]

Badengo,your new to this aren't you? Why would anyone contract an aircraft for training only? A contract means you start providing an agreed service at an agreed time.

Your last sentence is bang on, contractually it's not required to be online early September.

[Code.name]

Operational flying starts beginning of September. As always planned.

As always planned??? Um, shouldn't the "plan" of been operational flying at the start of contract so there was no coverage gaps, or doesn't anyone care about the safety of the tax payers?

[FMTAfterburn]

Fact. contractually it was required to be task capable on the start date. Now we are being told cairns aircraft will be a month late. That means even more gaps in the SAR plan. Cobham gonna pretty well do what they want, AMSA has no choice. Less capable aircraft, new sensors which are unitegrated and unproven, an unsafe, or at best ineffective drop system, but hey, at least it's not cheap.

[Snakecharma]

Well, I watched it land yesterday in Perth on runway 24 and it wasn't on the ground until just after the C intersection. That, for those that don't know Perth, is a bit over half way down the runway and the runway is only 2163m long.

I was waiting for it to go spearing through the end onto the grass, but it didn't.

[Dashunder]

XNC is the training rig with first prototype drop chute system. Has been flying it's arse off here! Cameras all over the airframe capturing every drop to fine tune the system that has been chosen.

No AOC issues either, the aircraft is experimental...because it's just that, first of type with extensive modifications.

Operational flying starts beginning of September. As always planned.
Crock of **** Badengo, contract start date was 8th August. That means the ability to provide full SAR coverage on the 8th August.

Cairns also going to be a month delayed.

All good having unproven onboard sensors, but they are all pointless if they cant drop!!

[Badengo]

Crock of **** Badengo, contract start date was 8th August. That means the ability to provide full SAR coverage on the 8th August.

Cairns also going to be a month delayed.

All good having unproven onboard sensors, but they are all pointless if they cant drop!!

Ah so you've read the contract then? The start date wasn't for the start of SAR capability but training.

The fully operational machine will be over here within the next week or so, to coincide with the operational requirement start date.

The main holdups in this project has actually been AMSA not supplying crucial data like the size of stores etc until the very last minute. Cobham have met the requirements each step of the way. The aircraft was on time in Perth for AMSA crew training as stated in contract.

Cairns was always scheduled for Jan/Feb 2017.

[FMTAfterburn]

Ah so you've read the contract then? The start date wasn't for the start of SAR capability but training.

The fully operational machine will be over here within the next week or so, to coincide with the operational requirement start date.

The main holdups in this project has actually been AMSA not supplying crucial data like the size of stores etc until the very last minute. Cobham have met the requirements each step of the way. The aircraft was on time in Perth for AMSA crew training as stated in contract.

Cairns was always scheduled for Jan/Feb 2017.

Yep, pretty much full bottle on the contract, don't know what fairy tale your reading. As far as stores go, the RFT (that's request for tender) stated specifically that the selected aircraft will be capable of dropping the current array of stores. They even provided pictures and specifications - incidentally stating a maximum tested deployment speed of 160 kts-, also it should be noted that visual surveillance which is bread and butter SAR work, is to be done at 130 kts.
Everyone should take note that it appears Cobham are quick to blame their new client as being responsible for their in ability to meet contract imperatives.

[bodybag]

Enough!! You guys are insane. Move on and look for another job!

*hot tip 1* prepare for the interview. What ever you do, don't assume you'll get a job because you were employed by the previous contract owner.
*tip 2* don't burn bridges when you move between jobs. (*hint - they might not take you back)

It's really not that complicated!

Now move on.

[Badengo]

Yep, pretty much full bottle on the contract, don't know what fairy tale your reading. As far as stores go, the RFT (that's request for tender) stated specifically that the selected aircraft will be capable of dropping the current array of stores. They even provided pictures and specifications - incidentally stating a maximum tested deployment speed of 160 kts-, also it should be noted that visual surveillance which is bread and butter SAR work, is to be done at 130 kts.
Everyone should take note that it appears Cobham are quick to blame their new client as being responsible for their in ability to meet contract imperatives.

Thanks for replying for Dashunder regarding reading the contract.

Yes aware of the fact there was a request for information swapping but it didn't come to fruition until very late in the game.

[Badengo]

Enough!! You guys are insane. Move on and look for another job!

*hot tip 1* prepare for the interview. What ever you do, don't assume you'll get a job because you were employed by the previous contract owner.
*tip 2* don't burn bridges when you move between jobs. (*hint - they might not take you back)

It's really not that complicated!

Now move on.

Haha YES!!! So many butt hurt people on here! Im happy either way, if it flies or not I'm still fixing it and paying my bills:)

[Dashunder]

Ah so you've read the contract then? The start date wasn't for the start of SAR capability but training.

The fully operational machine will be over here within the next week or so, to coincide with the operational requirement start date.

The main holdups in this project has actually been AMSA not supplying crucial data like the size of stores etc until the very last minute. Cobham have met the requirements each step of the way. The aircraft was on time in Perth for AMSA crew training as stated in contract.

Cairns was always scheduled for Jan/Feb 2017.

So if Cairns is scheduled for Jan/Feb 2017, when does Essendon start??

[TwistedWindsock]

Enough!! You guys are insane. Move on and look for another job!

*hot tip 1* prepare for the interview. What ever you do, don't assume you'll get a job because you were employed by the previous contract owner.
*tip 2* don't burn bridges when you move between jobs. (*hint - they might not take you back)

It's really not that complicated!

Now move on.

Not a lot of people applied for the job because of such poor conditions not to mention the lack of flying. Some of the posts on this thread are not all applicants but those dismayed at such a poor result. Many AR crews moved on to much bigger a better things than Cobham could ever offer. Some commenting may be the very people you work with or indeed the client you work for. There is much concern in the JRCC. There are major questions to be asked especially about safety and I encourage anyone to express their concerns openly in such a forum. To dismiss it as just rejected applicant whinge is arrogant and unforntunate.

[FMTAfterburn]

Not a lot of people applied for the job because of such poor conditions not to mention the lack of flying. Some of the posts on this thread are not all applicants but those dismayed at such a poor result. Many AR crews moved on to much bigger a better things than Cobham could ever offer. Some commenting may be the very people you work with or indeed the client you work for. There is much concern in the JRCC. There are major questions to be asked especially about safety and I encourage anyone to express their concerns openly in such a forum. To dismiss it as just rejected applicant whinge is arrogant and unforntunate.

Well said, right on the money, why are people so willing to accept this as inevitable.Its ok to make a mistake (selection of aircraft), but to push on regardless and not change the trajectory while you can, well that's just dumb.

[Dashunder]

You have to wonder what is happening inside the walls of Cobham, still not online in Perth, no flying there for over a week now, and Cairns is only a little over 4 weeks away, and the word is Cairns are already a month late. Hmm

[Desert Flower]

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHXND

XND was doing some work off the coast of Adelaide & down to Kangaroo Island today. Not sure whether it was just an exercise or what was going on.

DF.

[Dashunder]

VH-XND ? FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VHXND)

XND was doing some work off the coast of Adelaide & down to Kangaroo Island today. Not sure whether it was just an exercise or what was going on.

DF.
Only training flights at this stage DF. Way behind schedule to provide SAR coverage.

[wishiwasupthere]

How come the media hasn't got hold of this yet?

[bodybag]

Wasathangi! How dare you hijack this thread! This space is for disgruntled people who didn't get a job! Don't be coming in here trying to tell us that Cobham are competent or that the 604 is the right machine for the job! A fast intercontinental jet for maritime rescue response in a country like Australia! It doesn't make sense!!

[FMTAfterburn]

No media Coverage? must be a political exercise, there is no way such an expensive and time critical contract would be allowed to run so far out of control.
Let's recap, as predicted,
Perth late by 2 months, so far
Aircraft not sensor ready
mission management system unproven, and not integrated with other sensors.
Aircrew not trained, except with whatever simulation is available.
Resignations and dismissals already placing a burden on crewing numbers
Cairns base not ready, no infrastructure, crew not trained 2 weeks to go.
No approved drop system, unlikely in the near term to drop large useful equipment without hitting airframe,engines.
Once airborne 4 hrs burn off required to get to landing weight.
AMSA management ducking and weaving, realising they now have no control of the product they thought they were getting, it's become obvious to them that Cobham will dictate the conduct of SAR operations in the future

[bodybag]

That is a dramatic post!! You must be an insider! You have so much ACCURATE and RELEVANT information! Even under the anonymity of you handle, you are managing to embarrass yourself. Posts like this really highlight the child like maturity level we are dealing with.
There is a lot more to this than your obviously limited intellect can process.
Invest your time in your job search. Cobham won the contract. Nobody is more disappointed than you.

[The Banjo]

AFTERBURN WROTE: 4 HOURS TO BURN DOWN TO MLW.

STREUTH BRUCE, WHATA A REVELATION!!!!!!

IF your flight is to do circuits in Melbourne, you put a fuel load on to land below MLW. If you plan to takeoff from Melbourne, overfly Learmonth and do a task 400nm off the west coast then land at Hedland, you will probably carry enough fuel for the task which might mean ya can't do circuits in Melbourne after takeoff.

Www.seek.com.au might help your condition.

[onetrack]

Hey, there's always the RAAF for a bit of fill-in SAR. They don't have much to do at the best of times. :)

Family of four rescued from boat off Exmouth after being found by an RAAF aircraft (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-09-01/family-of-four-rescued-from-boat-off-exmouth-wa-ningaloo-coast/7803946)

[Trevor the lover]

To be devil's advocate - how much have Cobham been hindered by the useless regulator. I submitted documentation for approval in May 2015. I need the work approved to help run my business and earn some money. 16 months later I have had back one request to clean up some typos and phraseologies - and that's it. How is any business supposed to function effectively when held to ransom like this.


And no disrespect to the people at CASA - it is a shot at a unit made dysfunctional by beuracracy, snouts in troughs and a total self focussed government.

[FMTAfterburn]

You Cobham guys wanna update this page

http://www.cobhamaviationservices.com/careers/roles/amsa-roles

[Dashunder]

That is a dramatic post!! You must be an insider! You have so much ACCURATE and RELEVANT information! Even under the anonymity of you handle, you are managing to embarrass yourself. Posts like this really highlight the child like maturity level we are dealing with.
There is a lot more to this than your obviously limited intellect can process.
Invest your time in your job search. Cobham won the contract. Nobody is more disappointed than you.
Nobody is disappointed bodybag about missing out on a job, what is disappointing is the lack of SAR capability in the West and soon to be Cairns.

Cobham have had 2 years to get this right. Its a Joke.

[BAT74]

Dashunder, you and FMT AB have made a significant number of posts on this topic, a number which goes beyond a casual disappointment with the contract development process. You say it's not due to missing out on a job; so what is your real motivation in denigrating this operation at every turn? It's hard to believe it's a case of tax-payer anger and not a personal grudge.

Why are you so affected and bothered by Cobham's SAR contract that you look for every possible sign of underperformance or failure?

Be honest.

Maybe I can answer your question.
80+ people lost their jobs. Good people. An Australian company got kicked to the kerb by another multinational. I do understand that there is a degree of uncertainty that comes with this type of operation but the current contract has serious flaws. Cracks are appearing and word is getting out. Cobham selected only a handful of personnel and many did not even apply as the pay and conditions were frankly insulting. Most have happily moved on. You're still going to get people asking the questions and sticking the knife in. There are many disappointed people, former, current crew and client feeling that this contract is becoming a total farce. Time will tell. So far it is not looking good and you can only drink the Kool-aid for so long.

[havick]

Dashunder, you and FMT AB have made a significant number of posts on this topic, a number which goes beyond a casual disappointment with the contract development process. You say it's not due to missing out on a job; so what is your real motivation in denigrating this operation at every turn? It's hard to believe it's a case of tax-payer anger and not a personal grudge.

Why are you so affected and bothered by Cobham's SAR contract that you look for every possible sign of underperformance or failure?

Be honest.

To be fair I don't think it's unreasonable to question why the capability isn't online.

Many SAR helicopter companies I have worked for have had no problems taking over a contract from another operator at the stroke of midnight seamlessly. Even when swapping out with new types and new FLIR/role equipment etc. of course there will alway be gremlins but at least the capability was always there.

It is justified questioning the performance Cobham and AMSA at this stage of the game.

Either Cobham are doing a **** job or AMSA are guilty for allowing it to happen. You can't really argue with that.

[Dashunder]

Oh dear, XND made it to Perth, but not for long, back to Adelaide, what for this time.

[bodybag]

Oh dear indeed Dashunder,
You have no idea what your talking about.
You speak uninformed rubbish.. but if it makes you feel better just keep on banging on.
..and BAT74,
80 + good people lost their jobs and the contract went to a multi-national.
Firstly its 2016. Get with the global program. Kicked to the kerb?? Whatever you weirdo.
Secondly, believe it or not Cobham only selected those that were suitable. Be it skills or be it attitude, if only a hand full were selected, it speaks volumes of where the previous contract offering was at. Sometimes a good old clean out is just what the doctor (or contract owner) ordered.
I feel for you guys, I really do. I've been there.
I just cannot see how this carry on is beneficial? If you want to have a winge with old coworkers, why not set up a private Facebook group or something?

[layman]

Not a player, just a taxpayer

I overheard a conversation the other day that included a discussion of 604 performance. If I heard correctly, to achieve the required SAR drop speeds the 604 would need to be flying with full flap / slats.

If this is correct, just wondering what the usable range could be if recovery needed to be planned around flap failure at about 170 knots (at 10,000 feet if we throw in depressurisation as well)

regards
layman

[RENURPP]

this is correct, just wondering what the usable range could be if recovery needed to be planned around flap failure at about 170 knots (at 10,000 feet if we throw in depressurisation as well how about an engine and complete electrical failure as well?

[BAT74]

Oh dear indeed Dashunder,
You have no idea what your talking about.
You speak uninformed rubbish.. but if it makes you feel better just keep on banging on.
..and BAT74,
80 + good people lost their jobs and the contract went to a multi-national.
Firstly its 2016. Get with the global program. Kicked to the kerb?? Whatever you weirdo.
Secondly, believe it or not Cobham only selected those that were suitable. Be it skills or be it attitude, if only a hand full were selected, it speaks volumes of where the previous contract offering was at. Sometimes a good old clean out is just what the doctor (or contract owner) ordered.
I feel for you guys, I really do. I've been there.
I just cannot see how this carry on is beneficial? If you want to have a winge with old coworkers, why not set up a private Facebook group or something?

Ha! resorting to name calling. You're such a pro at this. If you can't handle the heat maybe you should stick to Facebook

[TwistedWindsock]

Ha! resorting to name calling. You're such a pro at this. If you can't handle the heat maybe you should stick to Facebook

Hitting a bone there I think. Great forum. No doubt the client and regulator having a peek at it now and then seeing as they've been shut out and fed bull****.

[Trevor the lover]

"I overheard a conversation the other day that included a discussion of 604 performance. If I heard correctly, to achieve the required SAR drop speeds the 604 would need to be flying with full flap / slats."

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.

[Slezy9]

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.

So Cobham are flying the 604 at 140 knots with flap 20? That's a disaster waiting to happen. Last time I flew the 604 our min speeds were 190 clean, 170 flap 20, 160 flap 30 and the Vref flap 45. And that was a transit operation, A to B. Not a dynamic low level operation. If you're flying around at min speed eventually it's gonna bite you.

What's the plan when the flap doesn't retract? Recovery at FL140? Below 231 knots. Hope that's factored into the bingo fuel!

The more I hear about this operation the more I'm worried about the potential for an accident. Wrong aircraft for the job.

[josephfeatherweight]

Secondly, believe it or not Cobham only selected those that were suitable. Be it skills or be it attitude, if only a hand full were selected, it speaks volumes of where the previous contract offering was at.
Not entirely - they also selected those willing to accept the low pay to conduct this operation on a CL604.

[FMTAfterburn]

"I overheard a conversation the other day that included a discussion of 604 performance. If I heard correctly, to achieve the required SAR drop speeds the 604 would need to be flying with full flap / slats."

No not even close Layman. Whoever is giving you your info should be shoved in a blender. Firstly, the 604 has no slats. As for the speed - nope, doing a RAT drop test flight has the aircraft back at under 140kt with just one stage of flaps. So drop speeds with one stage of flaps, Flap 20, is no problem. BTW, there are 3 stages of flaps.

Trevor if you are flying that machine on SAR at 140 kts you are incredibly light and approaching the crash site (yours). The 604 variants may come with or without slats, you would have been better off with them.
Furthermore selection of aircrew by an HR department without experience in SAR is hardly an endorsement of that proffesionals experience and capability, AMSA had an opinion of people who they would like to have seen supporting the implementation of this new contract, these recommendations were ignored and possibly put the aircrew at a disadvantage, such was Cobhams desire to " create" a new culture.

[layman]

Ttl - thanks

RENURPP - my understanding is that RAAF plans for 'worst case' P3 recovery with one engine out, depressurised. I'd assume Cobham SOP would be similar.

Slezy9 - thanks

[TBM-Legend]

The Danish Air Force has been using this type for SAR for many years quite successfully.
So what's the problem??

RDAF Eskadrille 721 (721st squadron).

4 x Canadair CL-604 Challenger

[Slezy9]

Oh, not to mention that there is a lot of good experienced guys there,,,:ok::ok:

Yeah, maybe. But there's also a few who shouldn't....

And no, I'm not bitter. I didn't work for the previous mob, and I was offered a job. Turned it down, not enough money and a bumbling HR department turned me right off!

[josephfeatherweight]

The 604 variants may come with or without slats
Really?? Never ever seen or heard of a 604 with slats - but willing to be re-educated.
The Danish Air Force has been using this type for SAR for many years quite successfully.
SAR is not the primary role of the RDAF 604s - they maintain a basic capability, but SAR is a fair way down the list when it comes to their role.
Turned it down, not enough money and a bumbling HR department turned me right off!
I hear you, brother! :)

[Trevor the lover]

Slezy 9 and FMT - not sure why I'm writing this because clearly you guys cannot read. Where did Trev say that the SAR drops would be done at 140kts?? I said, quite clearly, that RAT drops are done at Flap 20, 140kts. I DID NOT say that would be the drop speeds for SAR. The drops speeds will be quite a lot higher and therefore there is a safety buffer.


And I standby for the photos of the 604 with slats. ha ha

[TBM-Legend]

Danish SAR is more than a minor sub-mission>>CL-604 CHALLENGER

ROYAL DANISH AIR FORCE
The CL-604 Challenger was originally a civilian aircraft, and it also performs some civilian tasks in the Royal Danish Air Force. It is normally the CL-604 Challenger that carries out VIP flights for the Danish government, the Royal family or Defence Command Denmark.

The Danish CL-604 version has had several modifications so we can use it for a variety of missions.

Approx 140 days a year the Challenger is deployed to Greenland to perform surveillance and SAR operations over the largest island in the world.

With the SLAR and FLIR it has an excellent capability for maritime surveillance in the environmental pollution control role.

With the Ocean Eye Radar strapped under its belly it detects ships and icebergs when it operates in the surveillance mode for control of the Fishery zones around Greenland and the Faroe Islands. In both configurations the communication facilities matched with the sensors provide a fine platform for “On Scene Commander” Search and Rescue operations.The aircraft even has a capability to drop life rafts, buoys for collecting samples of pollution and smaller bundles. Configured with seats we can transport 6 – 8 VIP passengers or up to 18 regular passengers. If need be also medical evacuation can be performed carrying patients on stretchers (small injuries).

[josephfeatherweight]

Hi TBM - my knowledge of the RDAF's utilisation of their 604s is not based off an airshow website. Whilst not trying to diminish their capability (or your comment), their primary role (by a HUGE margin) is maritime surveillance, particularly fisheries patrol and pollution monitoring. I'm sure they do a brilliant job of SAR, but it forms a very very small part of their tasking - which is completely different to the AMSA Cobham 604s.

[Trevor the lover]

Wasathangi don't be such a wonker. I would have more idea than you would probably ever guess.


Look at my points in context. I was responding to layman saying the drops would have to be done with full flaps and slats. My response initially was not to do with the drops themselves per se - I was pointing out that the aircraft can fly at 140kts with just flap 20 (no I do NOT advocate this config outside of the test flight)- so in context it was debunking Layman's post saying drops have to be done full flap to be able to fly slow enough.


You say I have no idea - well mate, MY 604 AFM says min speed clean 170, F20 160, F30 150 - so why is a drop at 180kt clean unsafe when it is 10 kts above the min speed? Please give me your enlightened answer.


And if you think I have no idea, then I will happily scan and present my AFM showing the min speeds AND the RAT drop profile. Then maybe you can say the AFM has no idea.


Answer my post then YOU can go away - and don't come back.

[Trevor the lover]

And also Wasawanki - I love this quote
As for slats....get real, the aircraft is only 48200lbs (22t round number)

What does the weight have to do with it dopey. Why do other jets of the same weight have slats then - Falcon 900 for instance. Who has no idea?????

[donpizmeov]

15 inches at idle Trev. All other facts will confuse them :)

[Dashunder]

This thread is starting to get off track.

The fact is, Perth was supposed to be online on the 8th of August, and they are still not online.

Cairns is due next week.

[AerocatS2A]

And also Wasawanki - I love this quote
As for slats....get real, the aircraft is only 48200lbs (22t round number)

What does the weight have to do with it dopey. Why do other jets of the same weight have slats then - Falcon 900 for instance. Who has no idea?????
Indeed. I used to fly a Tiger Moth that had slats, they are not necessarily limited to heavy jets. :ok:

[josephfeatherweight]

You're welcome, TREVOR....
Comes across better if you spell it right, but why is this getting so snarky?
No need for it, it's meant to be a discussion about Cobham's delayed introduction of the 604s to SAR service and the reasons behind it.

[Square Bear]

Been eating popcorn on the sidelines on this one, but josephfeatherweight has a valid point.

Seems many are questioning the capability and readiness of the new incumbent, who some admirers are giving sycophantantic support, as the argument to dismiss of the question of readiness or capability

I have no dog in this fight, and have friends on both sides of thisfence, but seriously, is there any employer out there that deserves the support some here are giving this one, to the point of almost gleefully saying some guys were not up to the task of getting onboard.

Never ever seen the perfect employer, nor seen the perfect aircraft for a task....that is once a bean counter has got involved in what the aircraft is tasked to do.

Hopefully there is some sort of trolling going on, otherwise the conversation (IMHO) seems a little lower than normal banter/arguement that occurs here.

[Dashunder]

Dashunder, you and FMT AB have made a significant number of posts on this topic, a number which goes beyond a casual disappointment with the contract development process. You say it's not due to missing out on a job; so what is your real motivation in denigrating this operation at every turn? It's hard to believe it's a case of tax-payer anger and not a personal grudge.

Why are you so affected and bothered by Cobham's SAR contract that you look for every possible sign of underperformance or failure?

Be honest.
Not affected or bothered, however I am seriously concerned by the lack of SAR coverage in large areas of the country due to a delay in contract startup. Cairns will also be delayed.

I hope I am proven wrong but Search and Rescue (SAR) is about peoples lives and the longer this goes on the closer we will get to the loss of life, who knows lives might already have been lost due to this.

[Cessna Jockey]

Apparently the base is late, that is noted numerous times. So what? Move on

Im sure someone clinging to an overturned vessel in the Indian Ocean would share your lack of concern

[FMTAfterburn]

Eclan, if you contracted a builder to build a house for a certain price so you can move in on a certain day and it wasn't ready would you feel ripped off? How about if you find that the contractor couldn't get enough bricklayers, or if the doors werent big enough for entry as per your agreement, is this now your problem, you did have an agreement in writing with a reputable contractor and they assured you this wouldn't happen. But hang on, half the appliances you contracted for were not fitted or didn't work in the fashion agreed, and the roof leaks. Do you just accept this standard.
Wouldnt you rather tear up the contract and start the process again making sure you learnt from your mistake and end up with a product on time that fits your specification after all a deal is a deal,If you don't do that you have no option but to live in that dodgy house.
The point is this is a SAR contract for the best part of a billion dollars, how many " professional " aviators out there have seen such a high profile, important, complex aviation solution run so late without a compliant solution in sight and without any repercussions , a couple of complete clusters in the military come to mind but very uncommon.
People need to be held to account, that's what is expected of Pilots, Engineers and SAR crew.
Seems to me that you want to make this personal, just stick to the facts and be nice:-D

[Captain Nomad]

So... Anyone putting in for the Cairns FO slot advertised...?! :E

[Trevor the lover]

"Your (sic) welcome Trevor."


Good comeback mate. Answered the questions beautifully.


My dog's out of this fight now.

[Dashunder]

FMTAfterburn,

You have a strong point there....Have a look when MH370 took place and when the contracts were awarded...There was at least a two month delay from the get go on the signing of contracts...As I keep stating, the boys are doing a great job and believe me the 604 platform will work...Drops are finalised and simplistic. Its just final testing on certain equipment. Keep in mind there is still Dorniers online and Tier 2,3 and 4 aircraft available..
Your indeed correct about the delay after MH370, however they still had 2 years to get their **** in order.

[FMTAfterburn]

http://https://www.google.com.au/search?q=sar+drone&client=tablet-android-sonymobile&prmd=ivsn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiz7-jx2s3PAhXLFZQKHfkwC2AQ_AUIBygB&biw=1280&bih=800#tbm=isch&q=search+and+rescue+joke+drone&imgrc=KMXWu6CkbTEy6M%3A

[havick]

Moot point here, but out of curiosity are the Dorniers that are bumped off contract still being paid on standby by AMSA under a short term gap coverage agreement or have they packed up the machines and are no longer available?

For clarification I don't consider a machine as available unless it's contracted to be on standby with crew on-site/re-call etc, call when needed doesn't count.

[FMTAfterburn]

Moot point here, but out of curiosity are the Dorniers that are bumped off contract still being paid on standby by AMSA under a short term gap coverage agreement or have they packed up the machines and are no longer available?

For clarification I don't consider a machine as available unless it's contracted to be on standby with crew on-site/re-call etc, call when needed doesn't count.

This is a joke,
The Aerorescue cairns base has now closed.
There is no longer SAR coverage in WA or FNQ, there are NO jets, let alone something that can drop. Clearly Cobham are in breach of contract. Why is this acceptable, the mind boggles.

[AerocatS2A]

Why not ask AMSA, or take it to the media, or your local parliamentary rep? If you really cared you'd do more than just yabber about it on PPRuNe, surely.

[onehitwonder]

RAAF is currently available for use by AMSA on an as required basis

[Dashunder]

This is a joke,
The Aerorescue cairns base has now closed.
There is no longer SAR coverage in WA or FNQ, there are NO jets, let alone something that can drop. Clearly Cobham are in breach of contract. Why is this acceptable, the mind boggles.

Interestly a second Dornier landed in Cairns today, I wonder why??

[havick]

RAAF is currently available for use by AMSA on an as required basis

As they've always been.

It appears there's still a major gap in capability from what has been in place and what is contracted to currently BE in place.

[FMTAfterburn]

Re post 100, and for all you aviators, let me put this in perspective, whether you fly a 172 or a 737, if you ditch, or have a forced landing, or of you activate an Elt for any reason up until recently an aircraft would be airborne within 30 mins by day and 60 mins by night. Depending on the circumstances your position would be isolated by DF then if you needed a raft, a satphone, water, first aid, or survival equipment that would be dropped to you, generally landing a few meters away at worst.this has been the case for ten years. Today, no.

[AerocatS2A]

Yes, so if you are so concerned, why aren't you doing something useful?

[Code.name]

I flew into Cairns a few days ago & seen the 328 still there, I thought the base was closing, have they decided to keep something there?

[Dashunder]

I flew into Cairns a few days ago & seen the 328 still there, I thought the base was closing, have they decided to keep something there?
The base is closed. Cobham not ready yet, still not ready in Perth.

[Code.name]

The base is closed. Cobham not ready yet, still not ready in Perth.

What do mean not ready? I seen AMSA on the news last week saying all systems are go with the 604, thought they must of got everything sorted last minute.....

[pilotchute]

Because nobody lies to the news!

[Code.name]

Because nobody lies to the news!

Are you saying reporters are not actually doing there job? Sounds like another company around here.....

[FMTAfterburn]

The cairns base is officially closed and it's aircraft is being marketed. Due to the frequency of SARs in FNQ and Torres straits the Brisbane aircraft is on an extended deployment until a jet turns up. Nothing in Perth, but no one cares.

[Code.name]

The cairns base is officially closed and it's aircraft is being marketed. Due to the frequency of SARs in FNQ and Torres straits the Brisbane aircraft is on an extended deployment until a jet turns up. Nothing in Perth, but no one cares.

So when will the Cairns jet be in town & available for tasking?

[Dashunder]

So when will the Cairns jet be in town & available for tasking?
That's the million dollar question.

If Perth is the example sometime in January

[Dashunder]

What do mean not ready? I seen AMSA on the news last week saying all systems are go with the 604, thought they must of got everything sorted last minute.....

This sort of press is commonly known in political circles as deflection.

When you dont want the real news to get out you promote it with a positive vibe.

Perth now been closed 12 weeks. Cairns 3 weeks, Essendon due to shut in 6 weeks.

[Square Bear]

Dashunder hi,

So, if I take the Haynes out passed the CNS outer reef and my trusty boat sinks, are you saying there is no SAR aircraft deliver what I need to survive.

..or is what AerobatS2A suggesting that all is OK, I should not be concerned and I will receive what I need to not perish?

[bodybag]

May I suggest that Dashunder is not the best person to answer that question.. I suspect he/she may be a little biased in opinion, light on facts and lacking common sense.

[Dashunder]

May I suggest that Dashunder is not the best person to answer that question.. I suspect he/she may be a little biased in opinion, light on facts and lacking common sense.

Hysterical

[Square Bear]

wasathangi

I shall therefore, for the time being at least, stay within range of Rescue 500...and might I add, an extremely professional, competent and brave bunch of guys (gender neutral meant).

And when Cobham does get to speed I shall reach further than the fling wing rescuers can go :).

[Dashunder]

wasathangi

I shall therefore, for the time being at least, stay within range of Rescue 500...and might I add, an extremely professional, competent and brave bunch of guys (gender neutral meant).

And when Cobham does get to speed I shall reach further than the fling wing rescuers can go :).

And that they are a professional competent bunch of people.

It is now 4 weeks since the Cairns based Dornier ceased operations, and another great bunch of people are filling the hole in Cairns along with the crew of Rescue 500, whilst awaiting for that other mob get the act together and its not looking likely that the Brisbane crew will be leaving any time soon.

Its starting to become a bit of a farce. Remember Perth closed their doors in August, its now November and I highly suspect that the jet wont be operating out of Perth in an online capacity prior to the new year.

One has to wonder where that leaves Essendon!! Hmm

[FMTAfterburn]

And that they are a professional competent bunch of people.

It is now 4 weeks since the Cairns based Dornier ceased operations, and another great bunch of people are filling the hole in Cairns along with the crew of Rescue 500, whilst awaiting for that other mob get the act together and its not looking likely that the Brisbane crew will be leaving any time soon.

Its starting to become a bit of a farce. Remember Perth closed their doors in August, its now November and I highly suspect that the jet wont be operating out of Perth in an online capacity prior to the new year.

One has to wonder where that leaves Essendon!! Hmm

What does it take to acknowledge that the contract has not been honoured. 3 months overdue and nothing. Do we wait for 4,5 or 6 months before someone calls it.
Unprecedented cock up

[continueapproach737]

where is the issue?

Cobham? CASA? AMSA?

Aircraft? Equipment? Crew?

[Dashunder]

where is the issue?

Cobham? CASA? AMSA?

Aircraft? Equipment? Crew?
A little bit of all CA737, but predominantly Cobham.

The contract was awarded 2 years ago, the first aircraft arrived in country on our around Boxing day last year and nothing is ready.

CASA have only certified the CL604 in experimental category which has restricted them to only a few airports for training purposes of which one isn't Cairns, the Cairns Port Authority wont approve the landing of the Challenger in Cairns whilst in experimental category.

They are severely restricted in what they can drop.

The troops are now starting to get a little frustrated and are starting to speak out.

Its all becoming a farce.

[Code.name]

I'm guessing that missing diver off Townsville during the week was glad there was a asset to provide on scene coordination to help rotary wing assets search and locate him......

[Dashunder]

I rest my case

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/amsa-rescue-jets-still-grounded-by-approval-process/news-story/340ed8c4bd0c11999c11aecceecaaa91?nk=660f145ea51dfe78aa4a8979 88963b17-1478824387

[havick]

I rest my case

Nocookies | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/amsa-rescue-jets-still-grounded-by-approval-process/news-story/340ed8c4bd0c11999c11aecceecaaa91?nk=660f145ea51dfe78aa4a8979 88963b17-1478824387)

Requires a subscription to see it. What does it say?

[Dashunder]

Requires a subscription to see it. What does it say?
A $640 million government contract to use four Cobham *Aviation-operated Bombardier Challenger jets for search-and-rescue operations around Australia is running more than three months behind schedule as the aircraft struggle to gain the regulatory approvals needed to fly.

The 12-year deal between the Australian Maritime Safety Authority and Cobham was supposed to begin in August when the first of four custom-fitted Challenger 604s was to begin operating from Perth.

Western Australian has been left without the long-range search-and-rescue aircraft for more than three months after problems gaining Civil Aviation Safety Authority approvals delayed their lift-off.

Sources close to AMSA say regulatory delays plaguing the 604s have been brought on by a raft of problems with the new jet, including the aircraft’s drop door being too small to allow necessary supply items to be dispatched from the plane.

Other critics have pointed to the jet’s requirement to burn off four hours of fuel before landing as a serious problem that undermines its ability to operate as a time-critical search-and-rescue aircraft.

The aircraft has also run into serious issues during testing by Cobham, including two incidents where supplies dropped from the plane struck its fuselage and tail.

AMSA said it was aware of the two incidents, which were reported to CASA as required.

“The trials informed incremental changes in design of the delivery system and drop procedures. Cobham has advised AMSA that CASA has now *approved the system, inclusive of aircraft modifications and crew procedures, for delivery of the full range of stores,” an AMSA spokesman said.

AMSA confirmed that the regulatory approvals were holding back the launch of the aircraft but could not provide a firm date when the jets could fly.

“Cobham has experienced a number of delays in modification, integration and certification of the aircraft,” the spokesman said.

“Until the aircraft is certified and approved by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to deliver the full range of search and rescue services, AMSA will not accept the service.”

AMSA said the first Cobham aircraft was booked to undertake proving flights for its CASA Air Operator’s Certificate in coming weeks, after which it would be able to enter service.

“Safety of the operation is paramount and when the rigorous process being followed by CASA is complete, AMSA will have the necessary assurances that this will be a safe operation which will *deliver all the capabilities required,” the AMSA spokesman said.

A spokeswoman for Cobham said the company was “fully focused” on delivering the aircraft to AMSA and that it continued to work closely with CASA to pass its regulatory hurdles.

The Cobham aircraft were set to progressively replace a fleet of AeroRescue Dornier aircraft based in Perth, Cairns and *Essendon.

While two of the Dorniers — one based in Cairns and one in Melbourne — are still in operation under the AeroRescue contract, they are about six hours away from Perth should an emergency unfold there.

AMSA said it did not rely on any single asset to deliver search-and-rescue services and there were sufficient alternative assets available for West Australian search-and-rescue services during the transition period.

AMSA said it also held contracts with a number of commercial aircraft operators who would provide response aircraft when *required.

[havick]

I wonder how much they're paying in penalties?

[Code.name]

What's the story here?

http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTw9eSIQ6w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTw9eSIQ6w)

[Dashunder]

What's the story here?

http://https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTw9eSIQ6w (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTw9eSIQ6w)

A little embarrassing!!

But then again probably not that embarrassing when you consider they are now 3 months behind in Perth.

[Vref+5]

1 of 2 likely scenarios:

1. Wrong bleed configuration selected in FMS, resulting in Vspeeds and N1 data dropping out; or
2. Turned pitot heats on too early and cooked the probes, resulting in Vspeed and N1 data dropping out. Can't do anything about it until they have cooled down<40 degrees.

Old trap for newbies. But on the upside they didn't takeoff. Wouldn't be the first operator I know to just blast off.

[havick]

Better not to take off than become a long lawn dart.

[AerocatS2A]

Could also be a mission equipment failure.

[Code.name]

Video of the 604 doing search training has been leaked....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3UblQ3kOg5o

[Dashunder]

This has become a basket case, reduced capability, it will be over 6 months before the west gets any SAR capability. Cairns 2 months late, Essendon who knows.

Todays Australian

Troubled Bombardier Challenger rescue jets ready to fly

The long-delayed launch of the Australian Maritime Safety Authority’s new $604 million rescue jets is set for take-off this month, with the troubled Cobham-operated Bombardier Challenger aircraft finally receiving regulatory approvals needed to fly.

But the approvals have come with significant changes to the 12-year contract awarded to Cob-ham, with sources saying that as many as a dozen amendments have been made that could potentially reduce the search-and-*rescue capabilities of the jets.

Sources say the contract amendments include changes to the minimum allowed weight of safety stores and devices, and reduced fuel capacity when on standby.

The reduction to the minimum drop weight was made after a test of the aircraft was abandoned when supplies dropped from the plane — including a 38kg plastic tub — struck the jet’s engine cowling. AMSA said it was aware of the incident, which was reported to CASA as required.

AMSA and Cobham declined to comment on the contract changes, saying its terms were commercial in confidence. But the maritime safety authority did say that Cobham had redesigned its stores delivery system to accommodate the different speed of the new aircraft to ensure stores did not hit the fuselage in the future.

A spokeswoman for Cobham said the company was “fully *focused” on the launch of the first aircraft into service and that they would meet “all of the capability requirements set out by AMSA”.

With the amendments and aircraft redesigns in place, Cobham was able to successfully complete a proving flight on Monday under supervision from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority.

“Cobham has received an air operator’s certificate to operate the CL604 aircraft. AMSA expects Cobham to commence service this month,” an AMSA spokesman said.

The commencement of the contract cannot come soon enough, with AMSA increasingly left without sufficient long-range search-and-rescue aircraft as its previous contract with Aero*Rescue and its fleet of Dornier aircraft comes to an end.

The Australian revealed last month that the four Cobham-*operated Challenger jets were supposed to be operating since August, when the first of four custom-fitted Challenger 604s was to begin flying out of Perth, but instead all of Western Australia has been without the long-range search-and-rescue aircraft since they ran into regulatory hurdles.

AMSA admitted that Cobham had experienced a number of delays in modification, integration and certification of the aircraft.

It said it would not make any payments to Cobham until the aircraft were fully operational.

The Cobham aircraft were to progressively replace the AeroRescue Dornier aircraft based in Perth, Cairns and Essendon.

While two of those Dorniers — one based in Brisbane and one based in Melbourne — are still in operation under the AeroRescue contract, they are some six hours away from Perth should an emergency situation unfold there.

A second Challenger aircraft to operate out of AMSA’s Cairns base was due to begin service in October but it too has been left without the jet. The third Challenger is scheduled to begin operations from Essendon this month and the fourth ancillary aircraft from March next year.

AMSA said Cobham was aiming to have all bases online by the end of February next year.

[FMTAfterburn]

When is late - too late, almost 4 months and no SAR aircraft in Perth. Nearly two months late for Cairns, by all accounts an incomplete and barely tasks capable aircraft will be there next week, using an inexperienced crew cobbled together from the ranks of people who can say they have been " checked". Adopt the position RCC, you are about to get a rogering.

[SpecMissGuru]

When is late - too late, almost 4 months and no SAR aircraft in Perth. Nearly two months late for Cairns, by all accounts an incomplete and barely tasks capable aircraft will be there next week, using an inexperienced crew cobbled together from the ranks of people who can say they have been " checked". Adopt the position RCC, you are about to get a rogering.

Whats that old saying, "better late than never", which is the case here, but that saying would not go down well for some poor suffering sole in distress.

Maybe something like "better never than ever"

[CaptainEmad]

XND is currently having a jolly taxy around Cairns taxiways and rwy15 at the moment. I believe that may be why JQ952 just conducted a missed approach...hopefully not the same reason as in Perth.

[FMTAfterburn]

Something broke on the take off roll. Abort. Get used to it
Its like an old holden

[SpecMissGuru]

XND is currently having a jolly taxy around Cairns taxiways and rwy15 at the moment. I believe that may be why JQ952 just conducted a missed approach...hopefully not the same reason as in Perth.

What was the reason in Perth??

[continueapproach737]

sad day today seeing the EN base packing up the office and loading the aircraft with boxes and more boxes

[FMTAfterburn]

What was the reason in Perth??


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gsTw9eSIQ6w

[TBM-Legend]

....#1 is a goer!!!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australias-first-cl-604-sar-jet-becomes-operationa-432488/

[TwistedWindsock]

....#1 is a goer!!!

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australias-first-cl-604-sar-jet-becomes-operationa-432488/

6 months late

[continueapproach737]

better late than never?

Interesting to see the Dash 8's placed in Thursday Island, Darwin and Broome with Challenger is Perth, Melb and Cairns, perhaps some crossover on taskings

[FMTAfterburn]

The press say Cobham created 30 new jobs, they didn't mention Cobham they ditched 30 experienced operators. Now everyone will be high fixing that there is an airframe in Cairns, they forget that it's drop system is dangerous and half the new sensors don't work. Let alone the long road to be travelled before the crew get their act together. Vomit worthy

[Icarus2001]

but that saying would not go down well for some poor suffering sole in distress.
https://resonatinglife.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/sole.jpg

Sole in distress.

https://www.stormylifejackets.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/saus_mp-low-56.jpg

Soul in distress.

Any questions?

[Capn Bloggs]

It's Christmas: treat yourself to a new pair of shoes, Iccy!

[pithblot]

Yes, Iccy, just one question.

Did the soulless EBA negotiations wrangle those sole-less shoes for the pilots too?

AFAP not at the table in SAR Pilot Award ?? (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/569437-afap-not-table-sar-pilot-award.html)

...and could this SAR farce have been averted if Professional Pilots were involved at the very start to negotiate professional terms and conditions?

(Yeah, I know that's two. But the second question is rhetorical)

pithblot

[777WakeTurbz]

better late than never?

Interesting to see the Dash 8's placed in Thursday Island, Darwin and Broome with Challenger is Perth, Melb and Cairns, perhaps some crossover on taskings

There are Dashs on Thursday Island now?

As for crossover, the Dashs are often first on scene, but don't drop stores anymore. So no crossover. Unless Cobham wants to cut into their new contract at a (no doubt) lower rate than the 604.

[Icarus2001]

Just to be clear pithblot you do realise that there are two distinct and markedly different contracts being talked about here?

Come on Bloggs, dig deep and help me out, non sparking remember.

[Capn Bloggs]

I know nuthink! :}

[SpecMissGuru]

So the Jets up and running finally, but behold Christmas is upon us and word has it that the poor people at Cobham don't like working over Christmas....No coverage out of Cairns 24-26th.

Lets make a broadcast to tell all to not get into trouble up north. When are AMSA going to harden up and not tolerate this, they are being dictated to!!!

Never fear though 24/7 coverage is happening down south. Oh thats right the Sydney to Hobart is on.

[TBM-Legend]

SMG I'm with you. Let's launch a proper Coastguard and do things like most other nations instead of the "KMart" approach...

Merry Xmas!

[continueapproach737]

so she went from Cairns to Learmonth with a few laps before returning.....

[SpecMissGuru]

It was only time, when everything seemed to be going well here in the tropical north the inevitable happened, during a training flight the deployment of our store has struck again, this time the thrust reverser, XND is grounded.

Here come CASA!!!

[FMTAfterburn]

It was only time, when everything seemed to be going well here in the tropical north the inevitable happened, during a training flight the deployment of our store has struck again, this time the thrust reverser, XND is grounded.

Here come CASA!!!

I recall some newbie expert stating that this was impossible on this forum a few months ago. What now, the crews are unhappy with a toxic environment prevailing. The service is going to be on a razors edge of safety, you simply can not afford a store hitting the airframe, let alone an engines thrust reverser, are you serious AMSA? What if the bucket cracked open, or a rope got caught?

[plasticmerc]

Sounds like everything is fine.
Nothing to see here.

[wishiwasupthere]

It flew yesterday so whatever issue there was must have been resolved quickly.

[SpecMissGuru]

Where's the jet, Dornier ferries across Oz to provide SAR coverage off Cairns and no sign of the jet...Hmm

[Code.name]

Where's the jet, Dornier ferries across Oz to provide SAR coverage off Cairns and no sign of the jet...Hmm

What's the go here, I landed in Cairns around midday & a 328 is back at AeroRescue, have they reopened the base up here again? I thought they had all closed up & selling the aircraft, if that's the case what happens if they do sell the aircraft? Who will be there to cover then?

[SpecMissGuru]

What's the go here, I landed in Cairns around midday & a 328 is back at AeroRescue, have they reopened the base up here again? I thought they had all closed up & selling the aircraft, if that's the case what happens if they do sell the aircraft? Who will be there to cover then?
Have another look Code.name and you will see it again, back from Melbourne yet again, who know's how long for this time.

[havick]

Aero rescue has moved back in to provide SAR service?

[FMTAfterburn]

It appears that no-one really cares anymore, this story is so bad you could not have scripted it, although it was certainly predicted.
No SAR aircraft in Perth for over 6 months now, nothing in Essendon, no spare, 1/2 a plane in Cairns which is not a pretty hanger queen. Well behind on crew with a non sustainable roster.
But there's more, an engine fire on the ground in ADL toasted a powerplant, thank god it wasnt airborne.
Thats going to set things back further, no way Cobham are going to make any money out of this contract. Unless - you could always reduce pay and conditions and maybe not have as many crew as you said you were going to, maybe just maybe you will break even.
The aircrew must be brave- but someone has to blaze a trail, no pun intended.
whew?

[havick]

It won't be long before they go back to the days of Chieftains contracted from flying schools to cover the gap! Wind back 20 years

[continueapproach737]

essendon had both dornier and challenger there yesterday when we landed

[SpecMissGuru]

essendon had both dornier and challenger there yesterday when we landed
Not much longer for the last Dornier, 27th Feb all ceases

[DrongoDriver]

Will the Challenger take over from the Dornier at Essendon or will we not be covered as well?

[SpecMissGuru]

Will the Challenger take over from the Dornier at Essendon or will we not be covered as well?
No coverage from what I have heard.

Cairns still the only base covered by Cobham, Perth now been without coverage since August.

[DutyofCare]

Hi FMTAfterburn (http://www.pprune.org/members/454453-fmtafterburn) Guru Master, we really need your help up here pls :uhoh:

How do you reverse a bid on Ebay :confused:

We put a nasty bid in last week for a cheap Cowboy Outfit & we've just won that Auction

Unbeknown to us we have just found out that we now own 4 x Dodgey Red n White / very expensive / under performing / troublesome / useless CL 604s :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

HELP US FMTAfterburn (http://www.pprune.org/members/454453-fmtafterburn)

[CaptCaveman]

DoC,

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Thanks for the laugh but I'm sure AMSA and anyone needing their services won't be laughing.

Heads need to roll over this fiasco; as a tax payer, I'm not getting my money's worth out of Cobham's provision of services.

[Pandorasboxes]

I know a bloke who recently left AMSA and apparently the search and rescue service is now run by people responsible for pollution accidents. As a pilot I really hope that's not true........:(

But it might explain some things......

[SpecMissGuru]

7 days to go and the SAR tenderer for the past 12 years will cease to exist, I wonder if Cobham will last that long.

[Car RAMROD]

as a tax payer, I'm not getting my money's worth out of Cobham's provision of services.

CaptCaveman, how many times have you been rescued?

I'd think just once and you'd have your money's worth!

[CaptCaveman]

Car Ramrod,

I’ve never been rescued, yet. However, that’s really not the point in this case.

Cobham were supposed to start providing a service that has the capacity to find, if humanly possible, and air drop supplies to people in need of support.

Now, if you’re happy to pay for a service, either as a taxpayer or an individual, without the capacity for the service provider (i.e. Cobham in this case) to deliver that service, then that’s up to you.

Me, I’m not happy to pay for something that neither I, nor any other taxpayer, can use if required. That’s just being played for a mug, IMO.

Hopefully, I’ll never have to use the service that Cobham, or any other possible future Search and Rescue contractor, has been tasked to provide to AMSA, on behalf of the Australian taxpayers, but it would be nice to know it was available if I needed to be rescued.

[FMTAfterburn]

https://youtu.be/UrSHr_qOk4Y

This is how it was done. A proud company and team, finished very strong and with dignity.

Awesome

[topdrop]

Well done to the Dornier crews - from my perspective as Approach controller - always professional and a pleasure to deal with. I especially liked the 50KT TAS increase when asked for max

[Car RAMROD]

No word from our regular posters about the Challenger's successful drop to the stranded yacht 200+ miles off the NSW coast?

[PartBananaClap]

Oh that's easy Car, those with an axe to grind can't use a successful sortie as fuel for their witch hunt

I do find it funny all the hate directed to Cobham. Has anyone just stood back and thought that Pearl's refusal to table tender that used jets over turbo props as required in the contact is a pretty significant factor in them losing the contract in the first place?

A new type is always going to have teething problems, give it 12 months and I'd put money on the new SAR service will be much more efficient and effective than the old one.

Certainly not taking anything away from the old Dornier crews or the Pearl service who did a fantastic job, but a new company and new equipment will give a broader capability

[compressor stall]

No word from our regular posters about the Challenger's successful drop to the stranded yacht 200+ miles off the NSW coast?

The news report I read said the stuff was dropped but not retrievable, which wouldn't fall into the 'successful' category.

What's the truth?

[AussieNick]

You'd expect there to be a few issue with a new provider. But considering how good a job Cobham has done with the Surveillance Australia gig I reckon its a safe bet that they'll nail the SAR one as well.

[Dashunder]

No word from our regular posters about the Challenger's successful drop to the stranded yacht 200+ miles off the NSW coast?
Why was the Cairns Jet off the NSW coast, one would have thought the Essendon Jet would have been closer.

Oh thats right its still delayed, coming up to 3 months now.

I rest my case!!

[compressor stall]

Can the 604 drop liferafts? I've just read an interview with the sailors saying that their boat was capsized and damaged and I'm curious why they only got dropped some radio gear.

[Car RAMROD]

The news report I read said the stuff was dropped but not retrievable, which wouldn't fall into the 'successful' category.

What's the truth?

So a drop has to be retrieved to be considered a successful drop does it?

I said successful drop. Not successful retrieve. Different things.


Unless the previous provider only dropped when it was guaranteed they'd be received 100% of the time, then I bet they "failed" at drops too! Under your criteria.

[compressor stall]

I have no connexion to any of the previous operators, and reading this thread I have no side in any fight.

I would say as a person bobbing about in a sinking boat that if I cannot reach the dropped stores, then the drop is not not successful.

[Car RAMROD]

No connection here either comp stall.

Considering there's been a bunch of people saying the jet wont be good enough at dropping, and that they've gotten stuck in for items hitting the aircraft on the way out etc during training/certification, they seem pretty quiet about the aspect of a successful drop when it happens on a real mission.

And unless you physically drop the item on the person, I would not count retrieval as a factor. A persons inability to recover an item, no matter who/what dropped it, isn't part of the actual drop act itself. That's what I'm getting at.

[topdrop]

Well let's just drop the gear 50 miles away and call the drop successful. In fact, why bother going out at all, look at the money you'd save.

[Car RAMROD]

Topdrop, you know there's a difference between your silly example and close enough where it can be retrieved.

You could drop something within 5 metres of a boat, but even that close won't guarantee retrieval depending on sea state and the rescuee's ability to grab it.

[Slezy9]

There's much more to dropping than proximity... something 10m away but downwind is potentially useless. 100m away but upwind and will be blown to the people in need is much more useful.

[Dashunder]

I have no connexion to any of the previous operators, and reading this thread I have no side in any fight.

I would say as a person bobbing about in a sinking boat that if I cannot reach the dropped stores, then the drop is not not successful.
CS your close to the mark.

Having been in the industry as a professional a drop can go by the book (i.e. everything functions IAW the script), if however that drop by the book isn't retrieved, or the poor helpless people in distress are not able to retrieve the item then it is deemed unsuccessful. It all comes down to the person flying (Capt) and his timing, weather has to always be factored into a drop by the crew at that moment in time.

I cant recall an actual drop in ideal conditions. If you want to see how a drop is performed in less than desireable conditions check this one out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJB6NXVu1xY

Practice does make perfect and that is why the old operator conducted loads of land and marine drops for practice, I believe the new operator will be doing this training in the Sim (correct me if I am wrong someone).

[topdrop]

Practice does make perfect and that is why the old operator conducted loads of land and marine drops for practice, I believe the new operator will be doing this training in the Sim (correct me if I am wrong someone).
They have been doing quite a bit of training around Cairns, though the type of training I do not know.

[Band a Lot]

So it moves?

[FMTAfterburn]

So it moves?
RSCU 660 dropped at lease 4 items to that yacht, nothing was retrieved, there were also 3 black Hawks and 1 c130 on task, such was the confidence in the jet doing something useful.
As for comments on the tender, the Cobham bid was 10 Mil per annum more expensive than the stated budget in the tender. If the actual budget was that high then no doubt we would have had a fleet of new aircraft, not second hand jets.
Does anyone want to take about the problems with sensors, integration and comms, including the bits of kit that have not been provided as promised such as VIDAR and cell locate. These teething problems are probably going to be solved, but at this stage implentation is 12 months behind schedule.
Turning up for a SAR is one thing, doing what you said you can do is another. A bit early for a pat on the back, you have a long path ahead of you Cobham.
Ch

[rodney rude]

When the contract was first given to Aerorescue, was it on time, did it all kick off on day one? Were there any teething issues? If so, well done. If not - have the aerorescue guys forgotten this now?

[Pettibone]

All five AeroRescue bases commenced service, with contracted capability, on the contracted start dates.

[onetrack]

A Challenger 604 has just successfully co-ordinated an RAN rescue of some Saffies from their disabled yacht, 1300kms SW of the lower coast of Western Australia.

ABC News (Aust) - South African men rescued from stricken yacht Jedi 1 off W.A. (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-19/south-african-men-rescued-from-stricken-jedi-1-yacht-off-wa/8367580)

[bodybag]

What was the useful range of those Dorniers?

[continueapproach737]

1000nm from memory

[Icarus2001]

So does that mean all bases up and running and fully operational now?

[FMTAfterburn]

So does that mean all bases up and running and fully operational now?

Well here we are, 9 months into the contract and a capability that is measured somewhere in the vicinity of less than 50 % contractually compliant. And this is now accepted as the new standard. The aircraft and equipment continues to fall short of Cobhams contracted claims. The crew, what there is of them are looking at their employment options. As a Surveillance/ SAR platform there are plenty of better jet options than the 604. Wake up government, the industry shakes it's head at your selection of company and aircraft.

[TBM-Legend]

....another block of flats for someone in AMSA I guess....

[Dashunder]

Well here we are, 9 months into the contract and a capability that is measured somewhere in the vicinity of less than 50 % contractually compliant. And this is now accepted as the new standard. The aircraft and equipment continues to fall short of Cobhams contracted claims. The crew, what there is of them are looking at their employment options. As a Surveillance/ SAR platform there are plenty of better jet options than the 604. Wake up government, the industry shakes it's head at your selection of company and aircraft.

So what gives FMT, been out of the loop for a few months now and haven't been keeping track, still struggling I assume.

Is Essendon online yet, I would assume they have full crews at all bases by now.

[bodybag]

Get over it mate.. it's all in the past. Everyone else has moved on. When your feeling sad just watch that feel good YouTube video.
In many respects Cobham are doing a much better job. At the very least they have set up a sensible platform (for a nation such as this) from which they can only improve to provide a far superior service. They have already responded to not less than 6 events that were literally beyond the capability of the previous operation (and I'm not only referring to range).
I'm not negating how disappointing it all must have been for previous crew but that's life. My best advice (having been there before) is to move on. Onwards and upwards!

[FMTAfterburn]

Essendon not online nor is the the 4th aircraft available crew solution is seriously lacking. Yes I've moved on but the principle remains.

[tomcat264]

Well, I watched it land yesterday in Perth on runway 24 and it wasn't on the ground until just after the C intersection. That, for those that don't know Perth, is a bit over half way down the runway and the runway is only 2163m long.

I was waiting for it to go spearing through the end onto the grass, but it didn't.
Your full of **** lol

[tomcat264]

Wasathangi! How dare you hijack this thread! This space is for disgruntled people who didn't get a job! Don't be coming in here trying to tell us that Cobham are competent or that the 604 is the right machine for the job! A fast intercontinental jet for maritime rescue response in a country like Australia! It doesn't make sense!!
P8 Poseidon is a 737-900 (fast intercontintenal jet) and your going to tell me its no good for maritime patrol??

[tomcat264]

FFS enough already STOP BITCHING LIKE A BUNCH OF OLD WOMEN

[TBM-Legend]

Does anyone know where the Dorniers are parked?

[Pettibone]

[QUOTE]Does anyone know where the Dorniers are parked?

Some work has recently been done for the European Border and Coast Guard Agency

[PartBananaClap]

Does anyone know where the Dorniers are parked?

1 Parked out front of the Pas hanger today. Seen 3 of them parked up just a few weeks ago.

[FMTAfterburn]

We have all moved on, happy days.
Hows that SAR contract working out Cobham. Not so good I hear, costing an actual fortune in LDs, wont make a profit this decade. And still contractually non compliant. Didnt see that coming - Not

[BAT74]

Looks like the chickens have finally coming home to roost.

[AerocatS2A]

If you have news, why not share it?

[kjvmw]

Still have that chip on your shoulder after 3 years BAT74? What misinformation are you going to feed to us this time?

[FMTAfterburn]

I don't think BAT has a chip on the shoulder, as far as misinformation goes if you look back at their posts it all seems quite factual. I can help with the request to share information.
Cobham is over, the SAR contact is a loss producing venture, and still not contractually compliant. The jet is simply the wrong aircraft.
Border force struggles to maintain its required rate of effort due to crew levels. B717 contact wither s on the profit vine.FiFo not really worth a mention. The only way forward is to carve up the bits and rejig or discontinue the unprofitable elements.
There will not be a rush of customers to buy all or parts of this company, why would you. Going back a few years now there were a bunch of new SAR crew who were understandably eager to get started, but at the same time bagged the committment and experience of the previous contract operators. You guys will now know what it's like to be abandoned by the client and your employer. Karma served, but there will always be a place for experienced professionals, you just don't know where or when that will be.

[AussieNick]

...
Border force struggles to maintain its required rate of effort due to crew levels...

Where the hell are you pulling that drivel from?