New RAF Trainer

[TEEEJ]

Gallery at following link showing Embraer Phenom, serial ZM333. The Phenom will replace the King Air at RAF Cranwell.

EMBRAER PHENOM 100 - THE PHENOM - Affinity Flying Training Services (http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/gallery/embraer-phenom-100-the-phenom/)

[NutLoose]

What's happening to the Tucano's then? It seems odd to add another type if they are staying.

We have a couple of Phenom based here and they look a bit "Tinny" so I will be interested to see how well they stand up to military use compared to the King Airs.

I note the Grobs are the Turbo Prop versions, bang seats and all.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-grob-aircraft-g120tp-pocket-rocket-352414/

The training aircraft will be the Grob G 120TP ‘Prefect’ for elementary flying training, the Beechcraft ‘Texan’ T-6C for basic flying training and the Embraer ‘Phenom’ 100 for multi-engine pilot training.

Thirty-eight modern, glass cockpit aircraft will be delivered in a phased approach over the next three years comprising 23 Grob G 120TP ‘Prefects’, 10 Beechcraft ‘Texan’ T-6Cs s and 5 Embraer ‘Phenom’ 100 jets – all featuring digital cockpits, exposing students at an early stage to the technologies they will rely on at the operational level.




http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/affinity-selected-deliver-fixed-wing-military-flying-training-services-uks-ministry-defence/

[Danny42C]

END OF AN ERA

Nutloose,
... exposing students at an early stage to the technologies they will rely on at the operational level...
So, it's the end of the analogue clocks, then ? (that's me finished !)

Danny......:{

[bingofuel]

I find it interesting they intend to use a jet for multi engine training. Are the majority of the RAF large multi engine aircraft not still turboprops, ie Atlas and C130. I would suggest it easier to transition a turboprop trained pilot to a jet than vice versa.

[Torquelink]

I find it interesting they intend to use a jet for multi engine training. Are the majority of the RAF large multi engine aircraft not still turboprops, ie Atlas and C130. I would suggest it easier to transition a turboprop trained pilot to a jet than vice versa.

Not to mention engine out handling: wing mounted vs rear fuselage mounted engines?

[Fareastdriver]

Makes it easier to get your licences at an early stage so you can build up your experience for the airlines.

[NutLoose]

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogs pot.co.uk/p/uk-military-flying-training-system.html (http://ukarmedforcescommentary.********.co.uk/p/uk-military-flying-training-system.html)

Remove the gap between blogs and pot

[Davef68]

I find it interesting they intend to use a jet for multi engine training. Are the majority of the RAF large multi engine aircraft not still turboprops, ie Atlas and C130. I would suggest it easier to transition a turboprop trained pilot to a jet than vice versa.
You could equally say all the MFTS helicopters are skid equipped, but all/most operational ones have wheels. It just means more training, airframe hours, and costs on the OCU. Keeps MFTS cheaper (he says cynically).

PS First Grob in build here:
http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Grob-120TP-in-build.jpg

[tartare]

That M.17 bang seat is an amazing looking piece of kit - so small compared to its ancestors!
Could do with one of those in the 152...
...actually the 152 could do with a tiny turboprop and one of those five bladed props as well...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Is the 'prefect' actually getting the bang seat? I heard a vicious rumour it was coming sans bang/oxygen, though it was only a rumour.

[Wander00]

Should have kept a couple of Canberra T4s for asymetric training..............

[NutLoose]

If you read the link I posted the helicopter one is also coming up with different types in the offing.

[Davef68]

H135/H145 Juno/Jupiter - the first one flew last week

[air pig]

Is its serviceability any better, from what I have heard 30% is not good enough.

[chopper2004]

If you read the link I posted the helicopter one is also coming up with different types in the offing.
I mentioned it here :)

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/579242-uk-mfts-rw-airbus-h135-h145-selected-2.html

[chopper2004]

H135/H145 Juno/Jupiter - the first one flew last week

https://www.airbushelicopters.com/website/en/press/Full-speed-ahead-on-UK-MFTS_1995.html

(photos courtesy of AH)

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger147/H135_SN2001_UK_MFTS_Firstflight_2016_07_29_001_zpsiqzzbyth.j pg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger147/Visit_UK_MFST_Demoflight_H145_2016_07_21_002_zps3bpx5y0x.jpg

[devonianflyer]

Is the 'prefect' actually getting the bang seat? I heard a vicious rumour it was coming sans bang/oxygen, though it was only a rumour.

Not rumour. The bang seat I'd agree the RAF can do without in EFT.

Oxygen and air conditioning in a glass cockpit TP capable of ops well above 10,000 would have been nice though.

But don't worry, I'm sure Grob gave the MOD/Ascent/Affinity a nice discount on the price by asking to remove the systems from the original configuration. Every penny helps...

[dervish]

But don't worry, I'm sure Grob gave the MOD/Ascent/Affinity a nice discount on the price by asking to remove the systems from the original configuration. Every penny helps...

Tongue firmly in cheek? This is what went wrong on Chinook Mk3.

[NutLoose]

As it would probably involve a certain amount of redesign work to accommodate the RAF, you might find the savings were / are pitiful, remember the fiasco over the Typhoons gun, where it was cheaper to simply fit it but not at the time use it, rather than design and build a ballast system to replace it.

..

[Mil-26Man]

remember the fiasco over the Typhoons gun, where it was cheaper to simply fit it but not at the time use it, rather than design and build a ballast system to replace it.

...and then to eventually use it after all. Fiasco indeed.

[NutLoose]

Yes, a lesson the US learnt the hard way, with the early gunless Phantom over Vietnam, where a gun was found to be needed and fitted to later versions. Mind you, I seem to remember they were required to close to visually confirm a target first which sort of negated their advantages over their opponents.

It always struck me as odd not to learn from others experiences in originally looking at removing the one from the Typhoon.

[Heathrow Harry]

IIRC they thought they'd save money by not fitting a gun to the Typhoon - but, as ever, it didn't work out that way

[NutLoose]

Yes, because they wouldn't have to pay for the support structure, tooling, bays, plumbers etc over the predicted life of the aircraft, but the replacement ballast design would have cost more than fitting the gun, so it was fitted but inactive, then later on someone figured out having a working gun might actually be of some use.

Which makes you wonder if pulling out the systems designed for this plastic pig at the offset, oxygen systems, bang seats etc, will make the need for a redesign to accommodate the changes and possibly ballasting to retain the C of G necessary. Indeed, will the savings be offset or lost by the changes involved.

[Bing]

Which makes you wonder if pulling out the systems designed for this plastic pig at the offset, oxygen systems, bang seats etc, will make the need for a redesign to accommodate the changes and possibly ballasting to retain the C of G necessary. Indeed, will the savings be offset or lost by the changes involved.

As Ascent are providing aircraft to conduct training at an agreed price, does it matter as far as MoD are concerned?

[tucumseh]

does it matter as far as MoD are concerned?

Yes. Not least because the build standard / configuration of the aircraft is what the safety case is based on, and (presumably, but by no means certainly) MoD will have written a contract requiring one. So, for a start, a new version of the SC must be issued. If the changes noted above are correct, the MAA will (presumably, but by no means certainly!) want to review the decision.

[HP90]

I believe the ejection seats and oxygen generation systems are optional on the G120TP, so no redesign will be needed, as the baseline design does not include them anyway.

Another thing the UK G120TPs do not appear to have is an autopilot, which, along with the lack of oxygen generation system, rules out downloading some of the high-level nav elements of the multi-engine cse to the G120TP.

The lack of bang seats also means we won't likely see the G120TP being used for some elements of the BFJT course, i.e. low level nav.

One question is, given the large increase in RPAS pilots the RAF will be needing due to Protector, will the G120TP be used to provide EFT to RPAS pilots, or will that continue as a separate cse on the Tutor (or be scrapped altogether once the RAF gains full control of it's RPAS training pipeline)?

[Bob Viking]

Why can't low level nav be done without a bang seat? We did it on the Firefly when I went through. I assume it's still in the syllabus.

BV

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Bv - I'd be interested to see the birdstrike result from this puppy at low level at 200 and something knots without a bang seat as a get out of jail free card. Wonder how thick the windscreen is? The front half of the tucano one is certainly pretty thick.

[HP90]

By "low level nav", I was referring to "dynamic" low-level nav such as the Mach Loop, etc. Considering the low numbers (only 10) of T-6Cs we have ordered, I figured they were going to shift some of the BFJT elements onto the G120TP, but the lack of bang seats makes me doubt this.

However, there is an interesting comment from Paul Livingstone, MD of Ascent, in this month's Air Forces Monthly (September, Page 8), saying that the numbers of T-6Cs ordered (and presumably other types too?) were based on the 2010 SDSR predictions of required pilot numbers, and therefore an order of additional airframes is now being considered.

The G120TP is certainly capable of dynamic manoeuvres, just go to 7:30 and 8:30 in the below video for two clips of a G120TP doing low-level high-speed passes over an airfield - it's speed and manoeuvrability are surprising!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXSTIxvutBc

Note that the UK will be getting the full glass cockpit version, unlike the analogue version shown in this video. One thing I worry about is complete ab-initio pilots (i.e. some who may have never even flown so much as a glider before) getting into a G120TP for their first ever experience of flying.

I know it has a power limiter, but still, especially with the glass cockpit, it could prove quite a handful. Time will tell as to whether a short bridging course is needed from the Tutor to the G120TP.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Airpolice,

I can't see that being an issue as the techniques taught at EFT differ markedly in certain areas from PPL (notably the cct, but plenty of others) and the RAF has a very positive attitude towards non-grad recruitment (slightly selfishly because it means they Pvr later!). As for abbos flying the Grob as the first thing they get airborne in, don't think that the glass cockpit will be the limfac. However, I'll start a book now on how many months it is before the first student lands one wheels up!

[aw ditor]

ISTR the Piston Provost was no slouch with the 550 BHP Leonides but, the SBA' kit could not compete with a glass cockpit'! But, nobody landed wheels up to my knowledge except almost once on the North Airfield at Shiny Palace' where a certain Bloggs' "landed on one" after knocking off the other one.

[chopper2004]

PBA_target, I'll put a tenner on it being in the first year, but at a non-RAF airfield.
Nope its still destined for Barking Heath and Cranditz :)

cheers

[chopper2004]

chopper, we are talking about the first wheels up landing.
@airpolice - Sorry beg your pardon,

Magic question - what else could be an alternative to the 120TP out there ,

cheers

[NutLoose]

As you asked, the all tin Sia Marchetti SF260TP as used by Commander Bond.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2013-02-01/alenia-aermacchi-sf-260-trainer-glass-cockpit

http://www.leonardocompany.com/en/-/sf-260

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Aermacchi/SIAI-Marchetti-SF-260TP/2273809

I believe the piston variant was looked at once before but was deemed at the time to expensive.



..

[Dan Winterland]

The Jet Provost was the first aircraft many RAF pilots flew.

[BEagle]

The SF260 was considered as a Chipmunk replacement for UAS flying back in around 1970. However, political considerations favoured the Scottish Aviation Bulldog - which was the last proper RAF elementary military trainer.

BAC proposed the P-59 single jet, tandem seat jet trainer to replace the Jet Provost - but instead the RAF ended up with the slower, unpressurised turboprop Tucano for basic fast jet training.

[Gwyn_ap_Nudd]

Somewhat amused to see that RAF pilots will train on a version of the PC9 some 30-odd years after it was rejected in favour of the Tucano.

[IFPS man]

Piston Provost
Didn't it have a fixed undercarriage??

[ancientaviator62]

Was not the Tucano chosen as a 'thank you' to Brazil for help during Op Corporate ? Then as usual an 'off the shelf' buy was modded by the UK.

[LOMCEVAK]

I believe that creating jobs in Northern Ireland may well have been a significant factor in the selection of the Tucano for the RAF. There was an evaluation flown at Boscombe Down between the Tucano, PC-9 and Turbo-Firecracker and I believe that the PC-9 was assessed as the best option but there are often many more factors than just capability that drive procurement decisions.

[BEagle]

Indeed, LOMCEVAK. Around that time we had some Boscombe people visiting the squadron and chatted with them in the crewroom about the JP replacement competition. During the chat, one of them asked "So which do you think will be chosen?". "Well", I answered, "my guess is that the Firecracker will be rejected early on, you'll recommend the PC-9 but the politicians will insist on the Tucano to keep Northern Irish aerospace jobs, now that the Lear Fan has finally gone tits up!"

"Interesting", was all he replied.....with a 'how did you guess' smile. But he did say that the best of the contenders was "...almost as good as the Harvard" :\ .

[212man]

Somewhat amused to see that RAF pilots will train on a version of the PC9 some 30-odd years after it was rejected in favour of the Tucano

You lost me there - are you suggesting that the Grob 120TP has some connection with the Pilatus PC9?

[Treble one]

You lost me there - are you suggesting that the Grob 120TP has some connection with the Pilatus PC9?


I think he may be referring to the Beechcraft T-6 which will replace the Tucano for BFJT 212 man?


Definite similarities.


Beechcraft T-6C - The Texan - Affinity Flying Training Services (http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/aircraft/beechcraft-t6-c-the-texan/)

[212man]

Thanks - missed that bit. Yes, there is more than a little irony there!

[Wander00]

I have been following this thread with some interest, but find it hard to be sure I have understood how many aircraft and how many bases - but to my tiny mind it looks like not many aircraft thinly spread around several bases. Am I missing something - might be my age..........

[Treble one]

I'm presuming that we are ordering so few aircraft for the FJ stream that the majority of F-35 pilots will be coming from the Tornado/Typhoon forces?


Its sad to think that the youngsters of today who have dreamt about being a FJ pilot in the RAF for many years are looking at a bleak future with very limited prospects to fulfil their dreams (I'm sure there will be some ab initio pilots making it to the F-35 squadrons in due course).

[Bob Viking]

Treble One.

I know doom and gloom is the order of the day on this site but I must respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. I would say that for a youngster joining now things haven't looked so good for a long time. The FJ force is expanding and the two choices are both world class FJ platforms.

I doubt the training will take any longer than it has in recent times and they'll fly new, gucci aircraft in the process.

Cast aside your views of 'how it was in the good old days' and try to look at it through the eyes of an aspiring youngster.

It's probably not as bad as you think.

BB

[Treble one]

Treble One.

I know doom and gloom is the order of the day on this site but I must respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. I would say that for a youngster joining now things haven't looked so good for a long time. The FJ force is expanding and the two choices are both world class FJ platforms.

I doubt the training will take any longer than it has in recent times and they'll fly new, gucci aircraft in the process.

Cast aside your views of 'how it was in the good old days' and try to look at it through the eyes of an aspiring youngster.

It's probably not as bad as you think.

BB


BV I am delighted to hear that!


Many years ago I dreamt of being a FJ pilot-Tornado GR1 was coming in and there was that great advert-something along the lines 'Drivers wanted'.


Unfortunately, I chose to pursue an alternative career which is where I decided I had a better chance of success (sadly, I didn't make that either!)


Its extremely heartening to know a young man/woman in the same position as I was in the late 80's still has a chance of achieving those dreams he will have had for years. Especially as a fairly recent conversation I had with someone (apparently in the know) was that most/all the FJ training slots were taken up by UAS students.


Appreciate you putting me right Bob.


Best Regards
TO

[chopper2004]

If anyone is interested here are my photos of the attack version - AT-6 Wolverine @FIAS 2016. Same airframe, albeit with FLIR, pylons etc ....but everything else the same.

Cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger143/IMG_3870_zpsrl5sendi.jpg


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger143/IMG_3871_zpsskb5dbhx.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger150/IMG_2353_zpsixjt9crs.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger144/IMG_2365_zpsr9m9vsal.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger144/IMG_2368_zpssg2rwdlf.jpg


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger151/IMG_3873_zps8jebini0.jpg

[Lynxman]

23 Prefects serialled ZM300 to ZM322, 10 Texans serialled ZM323 to ZM332 and 5 Phenoms serialled ZM333 to ZM337.

[Wander00]

And spread over how many bases...................

[Dan Winterland]

The previous holder of the name "Prefect" in the RAF.

http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv273/WZ793/ZH2.jpg

[Stitchbitch]

Why T-6 II and not PC-21? Was it considered too advanced/complicated or did it provide a duplicate capability to Hawk T.2?

[Bob Viking]

In a word. Yes. To the second question.

BV

[Treble one]

Thanks for the photos chopper2004.


Its a bit different inside to a Chippie (last 2 seat trainer I sat in) :-)

[Wander00]

And over how many bases is this small fleet to be spread?

[Martin the Martian]

Embraers at Cranwell, T-6s (please can we call them Harvards?) to Valley alongside the Hawks. Bye bye Linton-on-Ouse.

[Wander00]

Pretty thin on the ground (or in the air) then

[Davef68]

T-6s (please can we call them Harvards?)
I suspect not as long as the Boscombe aircraft is in service. Might confuse people :-)

[LOMCEVAK]

Problem solved; Boscombe Harvard has been retired from service!

[chopper2004]

Embraers at Cranwell, T-6s (please can we call them Harvards?) to Valley alongside the Hawks. Bye bye Linton-on-Ouse.
The G120 is also going to be based at Barking :) Heath as well .....

I saw the G120TP at ILA Berlin, (my photos) with their high altitude G520t,

Cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger152/IMG_6441_zps6ocy0ky7.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger152/IMG_6442_zpsn6yq3uaj.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger152/IMG_6444_zpsfjewelku.jpg

Laughingly :p:E could have the G520T as Tucano replacement instead of the T-6 Texan II thus emphasising the ethos of 'The Sky's the Limit'

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger152/IMG_6450_zpsy8clfdjv.jpg

[just another jocky]

....to Valley alongside the Hawks. Bye bye Linton-on-Ouse.


Has that been decided yet? For a while it was Wittering but I gather that's off the table now.


And over how many bases is this small fleet to be spread?


The 120TP will be based at Cranditz (RAF pilot training) & Barkston Heath (RN & Army pilot training).

[Lynxman]

Problem solved; Boscombe Harvard has been retired from service!
But the Harvard is still active on the Military Aircraft Register, but not for much longer.

[Wander00]

Had not realise the "real" Harvard was being retired. Had a flight in it many years ago, part of a Command Accounts Inspection, don't you know! Still makes me smile

[Davef68]

Problem solved; Boscombe Harvard has been retired from service!


That happened quietly - a pity for the longest serving aircraft type in UK military history.

PS someone tell ETPS as it's still on their shiny new website) http://www.etps.qinetiq.com/school/fleet/fixedwing/Pages/Harvard.aspx)

[Stitchbitch]

Problem solved; Boscombe Harvard has been retired from service!

I wonder if the Tucano will provide such sterling service, or has that gone as well? It was nice to get out of the bay and check the Harvards parachutes every once in a while. :(

[Martin the Martian]

At the risk of wandering even further off topic, do the BBMF pilots still get some taildragger experience on the Harvard to brisdge the gap between Chipmunk and Spitfire/Hurricane? If so, perhaps the Flight could have it.

[Treble one]

M t M I believe that does happen (Harvards) and maybe some twin stick experience in a two seat Spitfire as well?

[HP90]

First pics of UK G120TP in flight! Confirmed no ejection seats are fitted.

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/image-4.jpeg

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/image-6.jpeg

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/image-5.jpeg

[HP90]

Here's some CGIs of the G120TP livery:

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/grob-2016.jpg

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Grob-120TP-cutout-01.jpg

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/GROB-front-drawing.jpg


And here's a preview of the T-6C livery too:

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/T-6C-drawing-LR-in-colour.jpg

http://www.affinityfts.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/T6-C-front-cutout-drawing.jpg

[Lima Juliet]

I heard a rumour that there are problems with the Grob Tutor's propellers again - this time the blades are apparantly delaminating. The rumour was that about 30 were affected, any truth in that? If so, the bolstering of AEFs for Air Cadets won't be doing so well!

LJ

[Davef68]

I thought they were getting 'ZM***' registrations? I must admit the seemingly random allocation of registrations these days does bother my OCD and sense of order somewhat