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david1300
13th Aug 2016, 13:33
I don't have anything to add at this time, so I will just quote the website article based on the newspaper report:

"It dwarfs by comparison many of the mass shootings that ignite calls for greater gun control from President Obama, the Democrats and their media. And yet, it will get hardly a mention in the media — and unlikely so much as a peep from Obama or the woman who hopes to succeed him, Hillary Clinton.

In less than a week, nearly 100 people have been shot, 24 of them fatally, in Barack Obama’s hometown of Chicago. Following the deadliest July in 10 years, this past Monday marked the deadliest single day in 13 years, when nine people were killed in one day — including a 10-year-old boy shot in the back as he played on his front porch."

and further

"With a trend as dramatic as this, one has to ask, what gives? What’s going on to drive the changes? Chicago has some of the strictest gun control in the nation, and yet sees some of the most dramatic gun violence and carnage in the nation.

And, tragically, while many of these victims are black, we don’t hear a peep from Black Lives Matter or race opportunists Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson pushing for changes to stem this tide of black lives marred and cut far too short. Not even the first black president, who has such close personal ties to this city.

These black lives apparently don’t matter; they don’t fit the narratives of the police and guns being the problem. Indeed, Chicago busts open the narrative that gun control is the answer to violence — and that it is police officers who are killing blacks at alarmingly high rates.

As a result, the worsening situation is tragically ignored by most — but not us. We will continue pounding the drumbeat, even if others ignore it. We can’t allow this to continue unnoticed."

The reports is here: JUST IN: 99 shot, 24 DEAD... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com (http://www.allenbwest.com/michellejesse/just-99-shot-24-dead)

based on reports of shootings which are via Chicago Tribune: Nearly 100 people shot in Chicago in less than a week - Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-violence-shootings-20160810-story.html)

JUST IN: 99 shot, 24 DEAD... - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com (http://www.allenbwest.com/michellejesse/just-99-shot-24-dead)

lomapaseo
13th Aug 2016, 15:23
Oh cripes another gun thread based on another websites posts

HeartyMeatballs
13th Aug 2016, 15:26
So, a standard week Stateside. No?

Two's in
13th Aug 2016, 15:30
Unless the victims are taxpayers, there is no crime.

charliegolf
13th Aug 2016, 16:42
Hour and 10, and nothing on Sky or BBC. Unusual.

CG

Station_Calling
13th Aug 2016, 17:36
Hour and 10, and nothing on Sky or BBC. Unusual.

CG

Maybe you should try reading the link...

SASless
13th Aug 2016, 17:41
Just another typical weekend in Chicago....and of course an embarrassment to the Democrats, Gun Banners, and Progressives....thus the Media will make no mention of it.

Those Black Lives do not matter....sadly.

One was a Nine Year old Child playing on his own front porch.

But.....it was not a Cop that did the shooting in any of these so no interest to Obama, Lynch, Emanual, Sharpton, Jackson, et al.

Toadstool
13th Aug 2016, 19:17
Proper fishing thread to feed the Trolls. The usual posters on here use Chicago as the perfect opportunity to slag Obama, the Democrats and gun laws to fit their RWNJ agenda.

Oh if it were that simple.

Anyway, it keeps them happy I suppose.

Sallyann1234
13th Aug 2016, 20:57
What on earth do you think all those guns were designed and made to do?
Target practice? :ugh:

vapilot2004
13th Aug 2016, 23:05
Just another typical weekend in Chicago....and of course an embarrassment to the Democrats, Gun Banners, and Progressives....thus the Media will make no mention of it.


Horse :mad:, SAS.

We've talked about this before. Gun laws by state or municipality are practically useless at stopping the flow of guns - why? We covered this before, there are no 'border crossings' between cities and states of any consequence. This is why we need National legislation - something the NRA and the kow-towed Republicans and moderate Democrats in Congress prevent at every turn, through fear tactics.

vapilot2004
13th Aug 2016, 23:07
What on earth do you think all those guns were designed and made to do?
Target practice? :ugh:

Zombie practice? They're designed and manufactured to do one thing in particular, apparently - make money for gun manufacturers. Meanwhile, our 'well-regulated" militias are not to be seen.

TURIN
13th Aug 2016, 23:55
If this is not in the news then may I ask why if I do a Google search for 'Chicago' I get...

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/police-2-dead-8-wounded-in-overnight-shootings/

As the first hit.

Fairdealfrank
14th Aug 2016, 00:07
Hour and 10, and nothing on Sky or BBC. Unusual.

CG

It's called news management, just like when there was nothing in the news about illegal immigrants/refugees/economic migrants/asylum seekers (select your preferred term of reference) crossing the Mediterrenean and Aegean Seas during the EU referendum campaign in case it encouraged people to vote leave.

david1300
14th Aug 2016, 08:17
Proper fishing thread to feed the Trolls. The usual posters on here use Chicago as the perfect opportunity to slag Obama, the Democrats and gun laws to fit their RWNJ agenda.

Oh if it were that simple.

Anyway, it keeps them happy I suppose.

Not intended to be a fishing thread, and I didn't intend it to appear to be trolling - so apologies if you saw it as both of these.

I don't follow the gun/shooting threads much at all, and I ended up at that place following links on domestic violence and children being harmed and killed in homes (just some casual research I was doing). The article shocked me somewhat into realizing that yes, this probably was just another week in another major American city. I don't know the significance of Chicago in comparison to other comparably sized USA cities.

So for those who don't find it shocking, or think it's Ok because it's commonplace - well, I apologize for offending your sensitive feelings.

For the rest of us - yep, it's probably quite alarming.

meadowrun
14th Aug 2016, 08:50
It does seem that Black lives don't matter if a black does the killing but woe betide a cop who shoots a criminal who has a right to be a criminal because he is black.


In Milwaukee last night, riots broke out after a man was shot by police after a chase involving a stolen car. The subject, armed with a stolen handgun, ran and was shot. A gas station and cars have been set on fire by an angry mob of around 100.

John Hill
14th Aug 2016, 09:08
'Shot while trying to escape' ? I think we have heard that someplace before.

charliegolf
14th Aug 2016, 11:50
Maybe you should try reading the link...

I did pick that up after posting, but couldn't be arsed to get on the treadmill!

Toadstool
14th Aug 2016, 12:30
David

Not intended to be a fishing thread, and I didn't intend it to appear to be trolling - so apologies if you saw it as both of these.

The apology is all mine. I stand corrected.

MrSnuggles
14th Aug 2016, 12:40
NATIONAL LEGISLATION

The only thing that works.

If anyone does not believe that, they are utterly stupid and a member of the NRA.

The whole 2nd amendment is just a recipe for these things to happen. When you in effect legislate that anyone and his grandchild have the RIGHT to use weapons pretty much irregardless, this is what you get. Morons. Murica.

SASless
14th Aug 2016, 12:49
Chicago has the highest Murder rate in the Country while having the most restrictive Gun Laws and is the claimed Home for a Community Organizer named BH Obama who is President.

Rarely does Obama make any mention of the disaster that is his Hometown which is the best example of the failed Progressive policies pushed by the Democrat Party.

Obama has had the Bully Pulpit and has not used it to effect needed changes in Chicago and so many other large Cities because to do so shall require admitting the Truth and Neither the Democrat Party or Black Leaders are just not capable of doing so.







Not intended to be a fishing thread, and I didn't intend it to appear to be trolling - so apologies if you saw it as both of these.

I don't follow the gun/shooting threads much at all, and I ended up at that place following links on domestic violence and children being harmed and killed in homes (just some casual research I was doing). The article shocked me somewhat into realizing that yes, this probably was just another week in another major American city. I don't know the significance of Chicago in comparison to other comparably sized USA cities.

So for those who don't find it shocking, or think it's Ok because it's commonplace - well, I apologize for offending your sensitive feelings.

For the rest of us - yep, it's probably quite alarming.

UniFoxOs
14th Aug 2016, 14:14
NATIONAL LEGISLATION

The only thing that works.

If anyone does not believe that

come to the UK and see just how well it has worked.

Chesty Morgan
14th Aug 2016, 16:16
Chicago has the highest Murder rate in the Country while having the most restrictive Gun Laws and is the claimed Home for a Community Organizer named BH Obama who is President.



Correlation does not equal causation.

SASless
14th Aug 2016, 16:55
Last night a small number of Rioters created chaos in Milwaukee, burning down several businesses, looting Stores, assaulting Police Officers, Passersby, Innocent neighbors, and Journalists with special targeting of White People.

The Excuse...a Police Officer shot and killed a fleeing Felon who was Armed with a Stolen Hang Gun taken in a Burglary the past week. The Suspect, with a lengthy criminal record was shot twice, in the Chest and Arm, while holding the Handgun and refusing to surrender the weapon.

The Officer involved was wearing a Body Camera.

So now lets see how the usual suspects react to this.

What I want explained is why burning down the local Petrol Station has anything to do with righting any PERCEIVED wrong by the Police?

Looting the neighborhood Store and and hauling of a crate of Cheeto's is supposed to somehow correct some imagined injustice?

Ya'll on the Left....please do explain that nexus will you?

Toadstool
14th Aug 2016, 18:43
Looting the neighborhood Store and and hauling of a crate of Cheeto's is supposed to somehow correct some imagined injustice?

Ya'll on the Left....please do explain that nexus will you?

I don't think anyone, irregardless of being on the left or the right would condone this sort of behaviour.

Obama has had the Bully Pulpit and has not used it to effect needed changes in Chicago and so many other large Cities because to do so shall require admitting the Truth and Neither the Democrat Party or Black Leaders are just not capable of doing so.


Any chance of writing this again in English?

ICT_SLB
15th Aug 2016, 05:47
"Chicago has the highest Murder rate in the Country while having the most restrictive Gun Laws..."

Chicago may have the strictest gun laws but both Illinois and Iowa, either mere minutes away or a couple of hours at most, do not. Sadly there are people who make $$$ from the illegal traffic in guns.

vapilot2004
15th Aug 2016, 06:19
"Chicago has the highest Murder rate in the Country while having the most restrictive Gun Laws..."



It boggles the mind that conservatives expect people to swallow that one. It is almost as if they are not thinking other people actually Think.

TWT
15th Aug 2016, 06:46
Chicago may have the strictest gun laws but both Illinois and Iowa, either mere minutes away or a couple of hours at most, do not

FYI,Chicago is the largest city in Illinois.....

Hempy
15th Aug 2016, 07:33
Chicago Heights or East Chicago?

Chicago has the highest Murder rate in the Country

is a typical Trump-like sound bite factoid that doesn't hold any water when placed under scrutiny anyway. Chicago does have the highest number of homicides, but it also has the 3rd highest population. The murder rate i.e murders/population is much higher in other US cities.

It sounds good when you are trying to push an agenda though, so why not manipulate the truth a little.

Lonewolf_50
15th Aug 2016, 12:15
Hempy, to be pedantic, if you are referring to "murder per capita" that is per basis of the population, whereas murder rate can be understood as 'number of murders over a unit of time.' Rate generally refers to "events per unit time." Once again we see both the media and the politicians playing Humpty Dumpty with words: they mean what they want them to mean.

You have to look a bit deeper to see what it is that is being tracked, and what is described. In gross murders per year(a unit of time) Chicago may be the winner. In murders per year per capita, perhaps they are winners again, or perhaps someone else took the trophy for that one.

Hempy
15th Aug 2016, 13:10
Fair enough, but we aren't talking about ROC or fuel flow. The metric needs to be observed; by 'time standard' logic Egypt has a higher 'murder rate' than the US simply because they've been doing it for a several thousand years as opposed to a couple of hundred.

Besides, everyone including the FBI classifies a 'rate' of crime as the number of incidents / total population for the area in question. Number of offences committed per 100,000 people seems to be the common measurement.

FWIW, Baltimore, 4x deadlier than Chicago, had the highest 'murder rate' last year (55.2/100,000), followed by Detroit (43.8), Washington DC (24.1), Las Vegas (20.1), and then Chicago at 17/100,000

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/crime-2015-final-analysis

But then the other four cities don't have the most restrictive Gun Laws and is the claimed Home for a Community Organizer named BH Obama who is President (sic)so I can see why our conservative friends ignore them..or simply make stats up.

Lonewolf_50
15th Aug 2016, 13:26
Fair enough, but we aren't talking about ROC or fuel flow. The metric needs to be observed; by 'time standard' logic Egypt has a higher 'murder rate' than the US simply because they've been doing it for a several thousand years as opposed to a couple of hundred.

Besides, everyone including the FBI classifies a 'rate' of crime as the number of incidents / total population for the area in question. Number of offences committed per 100,000 people seems to be the common measurement.

FWIW, Baltimore, 4x deadlier than Chicago, had the highest 'murder rate' last year (55.2/100,000), followed by Detroit (43.8), Washington DC (24.1), Las Vegas (20.1), and then Chicago at 17/100,000

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/crime-2015-final-analysis

But the other four cities don't have so I can see why our conservative friends ignore them.. (1) If you are looking for trends, what do those cities have in common?
(2) Raw numbers is what gets all of you foreigners' panties into a bunch: Chicago feeds the metrics nicely.
(3) I am both surprised and pleased to see that Los Angeles isn't in that list, unless that simply means more people are living there now.


Had Mr Trump chosen to couch is rhetoric in terms of FBI stats, it would not have scored the political point he was after. I've yet to see a politician tell the whole truth about anything for a very long time. They live on half truths ... all of them.

Hempy
15th Aug 2016, 13:46
3. No, in 2015 there were only 285 homicides in Los Angeles from a population of 3.9 million...well down the list. Congrats!

The entire nation of Australia, 23+ million, had 238 homicides total. But let's not compare oranges with mangos.

as for the rest;

1. I don't know, what do they have in common? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the commonalities between Las Vegas, Detroit and Washington.

2. I don't wear 'panties', I guess that's just an American thing. Go for it :ok:

Even if I did though, they wouldn't be in a 'bunch'. Personally, I couldn't care less how many Americans have their lives ended by other Americans each minute/hour/day/year. It's none of my business. If you guys are concerned enough you'll sort it out. Or you won't.

Whatever.

I was simply pointing out SASless's rather watery definition of 'fact' (which, I agree, is commonplace for all politicians, but (you have to admit) rather infantile when it comes to PPRuNe). Fortunately most of us seem to have a higher IQ than the average Trump supporter. His unsubstantiated rhetoric (i.e a gentle way of saying 's**t he just made up') simply doesn't pass the test here.

vapilot2004
16th Aug 2016, 04:02
His unsubstantiated rhetoric (i.e a gentle way of saying 's**t he just made up') simply doesn't pass the test here.

In SAS' defense, I would like to point out that a fair amount of the crap he posts spews forth with frightening regularity from right-wing radio, Fox News, and the political blogosphere - all of whom share the same condition where reality has left the building.

megan
16th Aug 2016, 05:22
spews forth with frightening regularity from right-wing radio......... of whom share the same condition where reality has left the building. Substituting right with left in the sentence would likewise be correct. So the building contains no reality.

John Hill
16th Aug 2016, 05:48
Reality has a left wing bias.

Robert Cooper
16th Aug 2016, 06:15
Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore, etc. all democratic controlled cities and with the most gun violence. But hey, they are killing each other so let 'em get on with it.

vapilot2004
16th Aug 2016, 07:01
Once again, with gusto, guns cross city/state lines with impunity, and the only way to address the problem is with national legislation.

Substituting right with left in the sentence would likewise be correct. So the building contains no reality.

While American media has become less reliable when it comes to fact checking, mostly thanks to the Fact that just 5 conglomerates control 90% of American media, therefore profit became more important than integrity, more lies and disinformation comes from right-wing media than the rest of them, when it comes to political stories.

Back in the good old news days of Walter Cronkite, the news organization of a network was never intended to be a money maker - they were built to inform and educate. Now news entertainment and it's for sale.

BigEndBob
16th Aug 2016, 07:18
I remember my first visit to the US in 1993.
Stayed with a cousin in Boston.
Spent one day watching the local news and all it was full of was shootings, mainly Black and Hispanic, one was of a boyfriend who short his girlfriend and daughter in a pram to death, but also live coverage of a Policeman's funeral.
Then I thought real American, what a state.

alwayzinit
17th Aug 2016, 06:18
Have copied this History of Firearms Licensing in the UK , whichever side of the debate one is on it makes for a thought provoking read.





In 1900 the British government trusted the people with firearms and to be their own guardians. Prime Minister Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, the Marquess of Salisbury said he would "laud the day when there was a rifle in every cottage in England". However in 1903 Britain passed its first ever "gun control" law, a minor one requiring a permit to carry a handgun and restricting the age of purchasers. It was the first toe over a slippery slope towards complete firearms prohibition.

In 1919 the British government, in fear of communist insurgents and domestic and foreign anarchists, passed its first sweeping anti-gun laws (under the smokescreen of crime control) even though gun related crime was almost non existent in the England of the day. British subjects could now only buy a firearm if they could show "a good reason" for having one and the firearm certificate system that we have today (implemented and abused by police) was introduced. The 1920 gun control act was the beginning of the end for private firearms ownership in England. So much for Robert Gascoyne-Cecil's remarks of "a rifle in every cottage in England" being a laudable goal.

In 1936 short barrelled shotguns (such as shot pistols used for ratting) and fully automatic firearms were outlawed. Why? Not because such firearms were ever misused but because the government dictated that civilians had "no legitimate reason" for owning them. Where have we heard that before! Another slide down the slippery slope. The reasoning has now changed from the government NEEDING TO SHOW REASONS FOR THE RESTRICTIONS to the people NEEDING TO SHOW REASONS TO EXERCISE THEIR RIGHTS, to a government TELLING them that there was NO ACCEPTABLE REASON.

The English Bill of Rights states "That the subjects which are Protestants may have arms for their defence, suitable to their condition and as allowed by law" Sir William Blackstone, commenting on this in his Commentaries on the laws of England said, "The fifth and last auxiliary RIGHT of the subject, that I shall at present mention, is that of having arms for their defence, suitable to their condition, and as allowed by law, which is also declared by the same statute IW & M ft.2c.2 and is indeed a public allowance, under due restrictions, of the natural right of resistance and self preservation, when the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression". I wonder what happened to "the natural RIGHT of resistance and self preservation" (from domestic criminals and out of control governments). Have not the "sanctions of society and laws" been shown "insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression"?

In 1936 the government added a "safe storage" requirement on the owners of handguns and rifles to "prevent the guns falling into the wrong hands" Where have we heard that one before, and how often do the British police use that particular requirement to harass what is left of the British gun owning community?

As a direct consequence of the 1920 gun control act, not only did Britain not have "a rifle in every cottage" but they had to ask American citizens to send them every type of rifle and handgun at the outbreak of WWII, so British people would have some means of defending their homes and islands against the Nazi hordes massing across the English Channel. Americans responded by sending every type of firearm to the unarmed and helpless people of Britain. No surprise, but at the end of the war the British people did not get to keep the guns, the government seized many of them back and dumped them in the sea. Such was the British government's gratitude to the American public and distrust of their own people.

In 1946 "self defence" was no longer considered a good reason for requiring a police issued firearms certificate. The slippery slope got even steeper.

In 1953 carrying any type of weapon for self defence was made illegal, making the streets even safer for the criminal element and giving great "crime control" soundbites to the police and press.

In 1967 a chap by the name of Harry Roberts blasted three policemen to death in a London street using a 9mm Luger pistol and the British government restricted shotguns for the very first time. Try to figure out the logic... handgun used... shotguns licensed for the first time in British history. Opportunistic, or am I just being a cynical bastard?

In 1982 black powder muzzle loader shooters and handloaders were required to allow police inspection of their security arrangements to ensure "safe storage" of the powder they possessed, meaning that agents of the state could demand entry into an Englishman's home at any time of day or night without a warrant.

In 1988 all semi-automatic rifles were banned, including pump action rifles. The personal property of law abiding people was once again outlawed and seized. All the guns were registered and easy to find, that is to say, all the legally held ones.

In 1996 all handguns were banned and they too were all registered with the agents of the state. Well, need I say more? You get the picture. Also in 1996 carrying any knife with a blade longer than 3 inches was made illegal. Presumably one cannot stab someone to death with a three inch knife. You now had to show "good reason" for carrying a knife, the presumption of innocence, until proven guilty of a crime, was gone.

In England today you cannot carry any type of weapon for self defence and you cannot use a firearm to defend your home, family, or property. The gun and weapon laws have made crime safe for criminals and the other violent thugs and miscreants who infest our country today.

In 2006 the government passed the Violent Crime Reduction Act. The VCRA restricted all "realistic" toy/replica guns. Now Britons were not to be trusted with even imitation non-firing replicas. "Violent crime reduction" was once again used as the smokescreen to enact oppressive laws and deprive the law abiding of their property. As part of the VCRA an airgun can no longer be purchased by mail order and the name and address of the purchaser must be registered with the seller. Is the bigger picture now getting clearer?

In 2009 talks with the British government were started to devolve airgun laws to the Scottish parliament. If and when the Scottish parliament is given the power over airgun legislation the Parliament has vowed to ban the sale of all airguns in Scotland. In the coming years, England will follow the Scottish example and airgun registration and an eventual licensing system will follow. The slippery slope is now in a vertical freefall.

Am I suggesting that there has been some nefarious plan all along to disarm and subjugate the British people? Yes, partly. I am also suggesting that this is a cycle of government behaviour long recognised, one we should be paying attention to, and breaking. We KNOW what governments do; they acquire power at the expense of the governed. They do it slowly, almost imperceptibly, and usually for nefarious reasons and political expediency

bcgallacher
17th Aug 2016, 08:36
The result of all this nefarious legislation? A country where we have less than 50 die from gunshot per year - if we had the same situation as the US we would have 6000 - including many children. When did you last hear of a child or infant being shot dead here? The US has about one policeman shot dead per week - last British police officer shot dead in 2012. US police shoot dead about 1200 per year how many by British police? Just be grateful that we don't have to keep our hands on the steering wheel at a traffic stop for fear of being shot by a nervous police officer. We do not have monthly school shootings or regular family slaughters - it does happen but not with the same frequency. Our kids do not need gunman drills at school nor is there any proposal to arm teachers. I would now like to hear some gun nut tell me how our gun control laws have contributed to making our society less safe and reduced our freedom.

alwayzinit
17th Aug 2016, 10:27
BCG,
All true and yet our Police are more heavily armed that at anytime in our modern history.
Yes, there has in recent years been an large increase in extremist threats but the arming of our police to paramilitary levels predates this recent and current threat.
By and large the police react to rather than proactively act to crimes and terrorism. The more stealthy "Security Services" are the proactive ones generally.
This being the case we, as a population, are being told we will be "protected" by our police. Yet as they "react to" events that "protection" is a little late for the minority already caught up in whatever unpleasantness has taken place.
The same politicos who decide that we are no longer fit to defend our families or property are, at the same time, surrounding themselves with heavily armed protection.
OK for them but not for us little people apparently.
Of course the idea of instantly arming the whole population is absurd, the same, however, can also be said about thinking legislation will effect the thinking and actions of organised criminals and gangs.
Personally having the facility to protect ones loved ones and property with more than harsh language and a dodgy mobile signal appeals to many and yet even with violent crime on the rise, we are forbidden from the means.( should one mention self defense one is likely to end up in the funny farm or be charged with Terrorist offences)
The average response time to an emergency call is not as in Hollywood films, time in which all manner of horrors can and do take place.
There is no simple solution, however, then neither does the answer lie at either end of this emotive subject.

Geordie_Expat
17th Aug 2016, 16:31
Am I suggesting that there has been some nefarious plan all along to disarm and subjugate the British people?


Complete and utter rubbish !!! In what way are we being subjugated ?We have no equivalent to the US Second Amendment in the UK so when were we "disarmed". There has never been a gun culture here.

bcgallacher
17th Aug 2016, 18:34
Alwayzinit - at the moment we have fewer armed police than in the recent past - that is why there is a drive to recruit more. There is a likelihood that there will be attempts at terrorist attack so our security services must be prepared as far as it is possible.These armed police are not used for normal policing - they are not needed for that. The system we have seems to work fairly well - armed police can only react to the situations that arise,unless intelligence is available prediction is unlikely. Look at shooting incidents in the US. - a well armed citizenry plus a heavily armed police force has not done much to stop gun crime of all kinds. Be grateful that we are not as the US,buying guns to protect ourselves from our relatives and neighbours who are buying guns for the same reason. A rather odd statistic from the US shows that gun sales are up but gun owners are reducing - fewer gun owners buying more guns.

West Coast
17th Aug 2016, 19:07
a rather odd statistic

Is it odd or do you just not understand it?

bcgallacher
17th Aug 2016, 20:03
My understanding appears to exceed yours if you have to ask the question. It would appear that the NRA exhortation for more people to arm themselves is not effective.

FakePilot
17th Aug 2016, 20:32
Once again, with gusto, guns cross city/state lines with impunity, and the only way to address the problem is with national legislation.

Quote:
Substituting right with left in the sentence would likewise be correct. So the building contains no reality.
While American media has become less reliable when it comes to fact checking, mostly thanks to the Fact that just 5 conglomerates control 90% of American media, therefore profit became more important than integrity, more lies and disinformation comes from right-wing media than the rest of them, when it comes to political stories.

Back in the good old news days of Walter Cronkite, the news organization of a network was never intended to be a money maker - they were built to inform and educate. Now news entertainment and it's for sale.

I don't know what the exact laws are, but I'm not able to buy any gun that can't be sold in my state of residence. So what's the problem?

FakePilot
17th Aug 2016, 20:43
The result of all this nefarious legislation? A country where we have less than 50 die from gunshot per year - if we had the same situation as the US we would have 6000 - including many children. When did you last hear of a child or infant being shot dead here? The US has about one policeman shot dead per week - last British police officer shot dead in 2012. US police shoot dead about 1200 per year how many by British police? Just be grateful that we don't have to keep our hands on the steering wheel at a traffic stop for fear of being shot by a nervous police officer. We do not have monthly school shootings or regular family slaughters - it does happen but not with the same frequency. Our kids do not need gunman drills at school nor is there any proposal to arm teachers. I would now like to hear some gun nut tell me how our gun control laws have contributed to making our society less safe and reduced our freedom.

I think you're right. However as the Pax Americana fades - as many with your mindset wanted - those gains in public safety may very well be erased. Remember France didn't have any gun violence either.

bcgallacher
17th Aug 2016, 23:34
I am at a loss - as I suspect others are, to make a connection between gunshot deaths in the UK with what you term Pax Americana. The US has 32000 gunshot deaths per year - 20000 suicides with about 10000 homicides - if this is Pax Americana we are better off without it here.

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 00:01
My understanding appears to exceed yours if you have to ask the question. It would appear that the NRA exhortation for more people to arm themselves is not effective.

No, you're just just a google warrior with no understanding beyond that. Don't kid yourself that you're knowledgable.

I collect baseball paraphernalia and will sell parts of my collection when I can make a profit. I know many, many gun owners who buy for the same reason. Weapons go up and down in value like any other commodity, making for a market. That's but one reason why many folks have a number of weapons. Differing types of hunting call for differing kinds of weapons, that's another reason why one owner will have many weapons. I don't expect you to understand as these ideas are not easily googled.

For the record, I don't belong to the NRA.

FakePilot
18th Aug 2016, 01:48
I am at a loss - as I suspect others are, to make a connection between gunshot deaths in the UK with what you term Pax Americana. The US has 32000 gunshot deaths per year - 20000 suicides with about 10000 homicides - if this is Pax Americana we are better off without it here.

You can google it.

SASless
18th Aug 2016, 03:15
West i.e.,

I must take time to consider the import of which you speak.

I think the right place will be the Shooting Sports Park down the Road from my house tomorrow Morning.

I have a WWII vintage M-1 Rifle recently bought that needs some exercise.

Seems fitting I can buy, own, possess, and shoot such an iconic firearm that played a role in freeing Millions of People in Europe and so many other places.

For balance I am thinking bringing the new AR along will make for a nice contrast.

As I murder some paper targets....Perhaps I will shout "Aloha Snack Bar!".





No, you're just just a google warrior with no understanding beyond that. Don't kid yourself that you're knowledgable.

I collect baseball paraphernalia and will sell parts of my collection when I can make a profit. I know many, many gun owners who buy for the same reason. Weapons go up and down in value like any other commodity, making for a market. That's but one reason why many folks have a number of weapons. Differing types of hunting call for differing kinds of weapons, that's another reason why one owner will have many weapons. I don't expect you to understand as these ideas are not easily googled.

For the record, I don't belong to the NRA.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 03:17
No, you're just just a google warrior with no understanding beyond that.

Oh..the irony :ok:

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 05:49
Really Hempy, explain.

I'm pretty well immersed in the legal gun culture, especially as of late. One of the reasons is it pisses off panzy ass liberals. I picked up an AR not long ago to keep my other AR company. Someday I'll be able to keep them with their M16 cousin in Arizona. I'll pick up a .22 pistol I have on layaway fairly soon. Enjoy plinking targets at the range with a friends, now I'll have my own. Dove season isn't far off, I have a few days of vacation planned to visit Yuma, dove huning central. Gonna need a shotgun for that, back to the gun store.

Son, you may hate me and the US legal gun culture at a visceral level and that's fine but don't think for a second your search engine education makes you qualified to comment intelligently about it.

vapilot2004
18th Aug 2016, 06:25
I don't know what the exact laws are, but I'm not able to buy any gun that can't be sold in my state of residence. So what's the problem?


No problem at all.Got a car? Internet's working too I see. Two easy peasy solutions.

alwayzinit
18th Aug 2016, 08:36
BCG, in response to your earlier reply to mine.

In the UK there has been a gradual but relentless move to remove firearms from the general public, that is historical fact.
The reasons why this has been a multiparty government policy over the years are debatable and you have to admit have not been as successful in reducing violent crime that we were led to believe.
Yet the apparent desire to fully disarm the Common Man goes beyond firearms, it extends to non lethal protection as well.
A private individual in the UK is not allowed pepper spray/mace to protect house and home. The police are. A private home is forbidden to be protected by passive measures such as razor wire or glass on top of walls, commercial property may have these passive measures to discourage uninvited guests.
When all is said and done successive governments in the UK have made it illegal for a private individual to be able to have ANY means of taking responsibility for the security of loved ones or property.
This is an equally absurd situation as everyone being armed to the teeth.
I know from personal experience that contrary to media hysteria deterrence works,it is after all a government policy regarding National Defense, the simple fact of carrying a shotgun persuaded some "uninvited guests" to rethink their evening's plans and scarper at an impressive rate of knots. The police when they arrived some 30 mins later, when said oiks were over the hills and far away, were quite content with my actions but then this is some 30 years ago.
Nobody was hurt, no damage was done to my family property.
It can be debated, however, the threat remains the same, if not more so now than then, yet if I were to act in a similar manner now it would be me in the "bracelets" and in DEEP trouble. I have not changed yet now I am prevented/forbidden from preventing a crime happening.
To me it just seems to make no sense whatsoever.

bcgallacher
18th Aug 2016, 09:59
Alwayzinit - the fact that gun ownership is controlled in the UK results in very low levels of gun crime. We have had only one school shooting that I can recall in my lifetime - near where I live as it happens. We do not have armed guards at our schools,we do not have gunman drills for pupils,we do not have proposals to allow teachers to carry guns in the classroom. Our police do not shoot us in large numbers,we do not shoot our policemen in any kind of numbers. If we had the same lack of gun control as the US we would have about 6000 dead per year - I am under no illusion that we have nutters in our society in comparable numbers as the US. We are not a minority when it comes to gun controls - most of the developed world has reasonably effective controls - it is the US that is out of step resulting in huge numbers of dead - the US has 4 times the homicide rate that we have so your suggestion that UK gun control does not limit violence is a little unreal. Do not compare UK and US so called crimes of violence figures - the FBI has only 4 crimes listed as violent - the UK has many more than that.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 10:06
alwayzinit, just say you were allowed by law to have assault rifles, shotguns, hamdguns etc available for home defence. How many times do you think you would have needed to use them over your lifetime?

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 11:40
Son, you may hate me and the US legal gun culture at a visceral level and that's fine but don't think for a second your search engine education makes you qualified to comment intelligently about it.

Thanks Pops, but you get me all wrong. I don't 'hate' anyone, yourself or your fellow countrymen included. I have found that most Americans of your vintage that I've dealt with in the past tend to be boorish, opinionated, self aggrandising, overweight slobs, but mostly reasonable to an extent. That's just your culture, you were born in it. You guys need to hype yourself up with lots of 'hoo-ha!' and 'number one!'.

The rest of the world thinks 'I don't need to tell anyone how good I am, it will be evident by my performance'.

It's a national inferiority complex, for whatever reason. But it's just your culture and that's ok.

I do take issue with American foreign policy over the years, especially as it has effected me directly. I didn't join the ADF to act as a proxy for someone elses ego war. The fact that you claim to have 'won' both World Wars gets on my goat a little too, but that's just your culture.

As for your guns. Go for it :ok: My take on it is a. I couldn't care less how many of their fellow citizens Americans want to kill each year, and b. if your big 16" AR-15 barrel makes you feel like you're more of a 'man', go for it :ok:

alwayzinit
18th Aug 2016, 12:00
BCG,
What you say is true in general, the Dunblane shooting was a tragedy, one that could and should have been averted had the police followed the guidelines already in place.
I wasn't just referring to firearms though.
I presume you keep a fire extinguisher or fire blanket at home or at least have home and contents insurance?
Under current legislation we as private citizens have to accept the consequences without being allowed to prevent crime as I did 30 odd years ago, even by non lethal means.
There has been a steady rise in violent crime since 1997, the rise in violent crime using knives is rampant. Yet we, the law abiding, are forbidden from having pepper spray or other form of "insurance".
Relying on the police to attend the scene of a crime is all well and good for those of us not the victim, when on the receiving end of "Community Policing" the feeling is a little different.
I would be interested in your views on why the likes of pepper spray are forbidden.

SASless
18th Aug 2016, 13:15
Perhaps some folks need to accept the fact that Americans do not wish to be like the rest of the World....and get over it.

That being different brings both good and bad....but that is ours to consider and deal with.

What is it with the same half dozen of you that you cannot understand that simple concept and you feel compelled to keep beating the same old Drum over and over and over?

Take it down the Pub and leave it alone here would you?

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 13:24
The rest of the world already accepts that you are certainly 'different'.

However, if you would kindly stop dragging the rest of the world into your shit wars just so that they can have an air of 'legitimacy' about them, that would be nice. Thanks :ok:

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 16:03
You speak for the rest of the world?

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 16:10
I'm sorry West Coast, I simply took SASless's admission as the truth (albeit he's an admitted liar). Take it up with him if you disagree.

We could put it to an international poll if you like. How do you think you'd fare?

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 16:17
It would be a more appropriate than speaking for the world.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 16:55
Ok, but that doesn't answer the question really, does it?

Suppose I did post a poll (if PPRuNe gave me the power), and the response was something that you didn't like. Would you wear it on the chin or blame it on 'someone else'?

bcgallacher
18th Aug 2016, 17:01
Alwayzinit - As far as pepper spray is concerned I really don't have much of a view on it - my wife used to keep one in the car in Manila. How effective they are I have no idea - at least you are not going to do any permanent damage with one. Freely available they could become a social nuisance in the wrong hands. People have the perception that violent crime is rising - murder rates are down,gun crime is mainly in our ethnic minority group - they appear to shoot and stab each other fairly regularly. This is not very PC but it is the unfortunate truth. We had a shooting in my small town about 3 years ago,a Pakistani Scot paid two Estonians to kill his brother - is this multiculturalism? My dislike of uncontrolled gun ownership comes from 40 years wandering the world where I have been shot at a couple of times and seen gunshot victims. I have also been held at gunpoint and in one country I had two armed bodyguards. I have fired many different types of pistols,HK MP5,m16, AK 47,Bren gun and Enfield rifle so I am familiar with firearms and this has convinced me that they have no place in a decent society. We are fortunate in the UK,the US has a problem that really has no solution - I see no way that the majority of 300 million firearms could be removed from society. The mass slaughter will continue.

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 17:07
Ha, I'm used to the far left slagging the US. Hell, in my time here I've seen the US beat up by posters on both sides of a given situation, for acting and not acting strongly enough.

Knock yourself out and go all survey monkey. It'll keep you occupied for awhile.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 17:23
West Coast,

Nope, that's your issue, not anybody else's.

You automatically assign anyone who doesn't agree with you as 'far left', without a single idea as to their voting history or tendencies. It's called arrogance.

As I said earlier in regards to the Americans I've met, you fit the caricature 100%. All mouth, no substance.

Any chance that you could actually deliver an opinion of your own, or do you just get your rocks off sitting in your den dissing anything that you perceive as 'anti US'? Something original would be a nice touch.

Not holding my breath..

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 17:26
A little tender about the far left comment I see.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 17:31
Not at all, skinhead Nazi.

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 17:44
Hair is receding for sure.

alwayzinit
18th Aug 2016, 18:19
BCG,
Like you I too have a long familiarity with all types of small arms and sporting weapons. This though does not really have any bearing on the situation in the UK.
The example of a shooting close to you, an assassination by criminals, is a perfect example of how the draconian firearms restrictions we labour under do not effect the armed criminals but just the law abiding.
In essence a placebo to public opinion.
Had the guidelines and restrictions already on the statute book been applied by the local police forces not one of the now infamous mass UK shootings could have taken place.
The law is only as good as it's application.
Yet we are told that only more restrictions on the law abiding will solve the issue of criminals shooting each other. It is beyond stupid logic.
I do not advocate the wholesale arming of the populous, as I said that is absurd in our society this side of the Pond. ( Equally as absurd as Europeans spouting about the 2nd Amendment)
Sadly the chance of a rational objective review of our current licensing system will never happen. Most of the restrictions were enacted as a sop to public opinion ignoring the conclusions of the government's own review.
Governments tend not to give back what they have managed to confiscate.
Hundreds of thousands of perfectly law abiding citizens were and continue to be vilified for the actions of men who were mentally disturbed.
If the aim of Government is to reduce random death then the car or train have killed many more than guns in the UK.
The idea of a risk free utopia run by a benign elite is an Orwellian nightmare, sadly history shows us that those in power always think they know best.

Hempy
18th Aug 2016, 18:29
p.s West Coast, you're a good bloke. Would like to share a beer one day (provided that you aren't a one pot screamer :})

West Coast
18th Aug 2016, 18:34
Sure enough Hempy! I tried drinking with some Oz mates back when I younger. I don't remember how it ended up