Flaming Toilet Rolls

[Stationair8]

Great story on ABC Radio about the RFDS QLD crew landing in north west Queensland last night, with the aid of toilet roll's soaked in petrol.


Nice work by all concerned!

[Stanwell]

Erm .. well, please do go on - we're all ears.

[Lantern10]

Sounds like marking out a landing strip.

[ShyTorque]

Flaming toilet rolls? Wouldn't that set the smoke detectors off?
I suppose they would need to land after that. ;)

[bpmsmith]

Article can be found here.
Flaming toilet rolls guide Royal Flying Doctor Service aircraft to remote airstrip - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-12/rfds-use-flaming-toilet-rolls-to-light-up-remote-airstrip/7722858)

[thorn bird]

I dunno, can't find anything in the reg's about flaming toilet roll runway lights anywhere. Must be something somewhere.

Does the RFDS have a spec for flaming toilet rolls?

Do they have procedures in their manual for flaming toilet rolls.

Is there an MEL for flaming roll failure?

Does their part C have a requirement for flaming toilet roll approach flight reviews?

[Lantern10]

^^ I feel you are overthinking this.

[Squawk7700]

They would need to be 3 ply for optimum visibility on approach.

Also, does it matter which way you lay them like when you put them in the holder at home?

[Stanwell]

Yes.
The women I know would have it that way.

[onetrack]

We most certainly need to know the brand of toilet tissue that ensures the most favourable lighting level, and the longest burn time. :) Then that brand name will need to be inserted into air regulations, to ensure that sub-standard varieties are not substituted. :)

I trust the appropriate authorities will also now enquire as to whether the toilet roll positioners had airside passes, and if not, why not? And did those toilet roll positioners have the necessary training and qualifications and hi-viz clothing, to ensure that the toilet rolls were correctly and safely positioned? The ramifications are huge, if even one of the positioners failed any of the above requirements. :)

[Union Jack]

Do they have procedures in their manual for flaming toilet rolls. - Thorn Bird

Available here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbfQaXfuq-w :ok:

Jack

[Left 270]

Was there any conformation from the ground crew about runway edge roll spacings?

[Look Mum - no hands]

Great story on ABC Radio about the RFDS QLD crew landing in north west Queensland last night, with the aid of toilet roll's soaked in petrol.


Nice work by all concerned!
Before anybody tries this at home, please use diesel or kero, not petrol!

[TWT]

Was there a brake lockup on landing ? Thought I saw some skid marks.
jjjj
jjjj
jjj
jjjj

[Obidiah]

Was there a brake lockup on landing ? Thought I saw some skid marks.

Undoubtedly, synonymous with toilet roll use.

[Lantern10]

They would need to be 3 ply for optimum visibility on approach.

And scented, of course, if you were doing this in say Mumbai

[Kirk out]

Flaming toilet rolls.....Batman....BLAP! KAPOW! BIFF!

[andytug]

Presumably a pan was called?

[aroa]

Thanks for the larfs , y'all.

[PLovett]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Look Mum - no hands
Before anybody tries this at home, please use diesel or kero, not petrol!
I wish I'd read this earlier. I look pretty ridiculous without my eyebrows!

Or read the linked article where it says they were soaked in diesel.

[Hempy]

Someone somewhere at CASA is having an apoplectic fit right now. I hope that toilet paper was TSO'd.

[Left 270]

They would have a lot of the required resource in Canberra for the testing of toilet paper but I believe it would be for a different use than we are considering.

[Swamp Duck]

Single pilot, Proline 21 King Air. FL320 one sector, dunny roll landing on a dirt strip in the middle of the night on the next or maybe both in the same sector. Never know what you will be doing or where you will be going until you get the call and then it's on and even that can change before you get there. RFDS, best flying job in the world I say.

Dunny roll landings are quite common in the RFDS. If a station does not have flares it is the best option as it meets the requirements for lighting and dunny rolls and diesel are usually readily available on stations. If not, car headlight landing is an option with the use of four cars, two to mark the threshold and two to mark the far end of the airstrip. https://youtu.be/itIUm6vExEw (link to YouTube RFDS PC12 car headlight landing, not mine)

Dunny rolls are preferred as a car head light landing can only be done if all other options have been exhausted and must be declared a mercy flight although is used if required.

Night circling approaches in the remote outback offer other challenges as there is usually no other lights anywhere and if moonless or overcast there is no horizon, just complete black other than the flares or the two crosses drawn on the airstrip with car headlights. Real black hole circling approach into 1000m dirt strip which may have trees to the threshold.

Car headlight landings on remote dirt airstrips are part of an RFDS pilot's night checks and yes they are in our manuals.

The RFDS motto, "can do, can do safely" is a good way to describe the operation. If it can't be done safely it is not done.

I am also the pilot in the above mentioned interview and love my job:)

[Stationair8]

Nice work Swamp Duck.

[Obidiah]

Not of Mildura stock by chance?

[compressor stall]

I never used the toilet rolls, but did the reflector thing a few times. Two kero flares at each end and little cat eye reflectors on stands. With such little light to define the strip on the downwind, it was a challenge in the night circuit as you say. And with a strong crosswind on final your lights didn't reach the reflectors unless you yawed or flew wing down. Much preferred the PC12 for this as the ldg lights are wider spaced and brighter than the nose gear cluster on the B200.

Good times, a while ago now though.

[Capt Fathom]

Old soup tins fill with sand and kero used to fill the bill. Dull orange flame though.
Obviously dunny rolls burn brighter! :E

[Swamp Duck]

Not of Mildura stock by chance?

That would be correct

[onetrack]

How do you blokes get a wind speed/direction indication in that kind of pitch blackness?? :ooh:
Does the toilet roll smoke and flame drift give you enough indication?

[thorn bird]

Swampie.
we have to take our hats off to you guys.
Luv your work!!

[Stanwell]

Capt Fathom,
".. soup tins filled with sand and kero .."
Fairly efficient - if you can get the Land Rover started.
Yup. :ok:

[Swamp Duck]

How do you blokes get a wind speed/direction indication in that kind of pitch blackness?? :ooh:
Does the toilet roll smoke and flame drift give you enough indication?

By direct communication with people on the ground via UHF radio.

[Stationair8]

One can see the PR guys at some bog roll company working on the next tv commercial right now!

Nine out of ten RFDS pilots use our 3 ply super soft toilet paper for its designed use, but one uses to help land his Kingair at the back of beyond!

[Swamp Duck]

Even if it wasn't in the ops manual, surely this would still meet the criteria of a mercy flight?

A flare can be anything that provides light. Traditionally kerosene flares were the norm, then electric and nowadays there are many options including permanent solar. Dunny rolls are are just another way of making a flare with readily available resources at short notice. Normal landing, just old school.

Car headlight light landings are mercy flights as there is no reg to cover this which is why we are specifically trained and checked with car headlights.

Compressor Stall's use of 4 flares and reflectors is the minimum specified in the regs which would be less than a whole runway lit with dunny rolls.

[Obidiah]

How do you blokes get a wind speed/direction indication in that kind of pitch blackness??
Does the toilet roll smoke and flame drift give you enough indication?

Not sure about the Proline's on the King Air's but the PC12's have a wind vector arrow on either the PFD and or MFD.

It does tend to be accurate enough even with the changing dynamics around the circuit to give the pilot a pretty good idea of what the wind is doing.

On top of that there is the seat of your pants and old common dog. The drift during downwind to base turn then base turn to final.

Plus a sense of time...time only for one sip of your cup of tea on base = strong xwind from the left and 3 sips of your cup of tea on base = strong xwind from your right. The urge to say "are we there yet" somewhere along final = strong H/wind down the runway and conversely a loud cuss of "buggar" on finals means it's a strong downwind and time to change ends.

Simple really ;)

[Swamp Duck]

Not sure about the Proline's on the King Air's but the PC12's have a wind vector arrow on either the PFD and or MFD.

It does tend to be accurate enough even with the changing dynamics around the circuit to give the pilot a pretty good idea of what the wind is doing.

On top of that there is the seat of your pants and old common dog. The drift during downwind to base turn then base turn to final.

Plus a sense of time...time only for one sip of your cup of tea on base = strong xwind from the left and 3 sips of your cup of tea on base = strong xwind from your right. The urge to say "are we there yet" somewhere along final = strong H/wind down the runway and conversely a loud cuss of "buggar" on finals means it's a strong downwind and time to change ends.

Simple really ;)

B200 is the same, wind vector on MFD and PFD and also a "track made good bug" on the PFD. Still verify with ground as wind can be different on ground compared to 1000', but certainly not as important as it used to be.

Love your post and will definitely try the tea method and you are right, ass cheeks are the best "if you keep doing what you are doing you are going to die" indicators in the aeroplane.

I am guessing you are living the same dream :)

[Desert Duck]

Have used dunny rolls many times & RFDS Qld always talk to property folk about dunny roll lights at regular Field Days.
Interestingly the standard Govt issue single ply 1000 sheet roll will
burn for about 54 minutes - the softer the roll the shorter the burn time.

Well done Swamp Duck

[Stanwell]

That may be so, DD.
I remember them.
They were more effective, being used for what we're talking about, than for their purported purpose.

[601]

Does the RFDS have a spec for flaming toilet rolls?

Is everyone on this forum living under a rock or have just progressed from iThingies to aircraft.

Toilet rolls, diesel filled beer cans with a rag wick and car headlights were the norm back when we used WAC charts, a match box for distance measurements, a Douglas Protracter, a circular whiz wheel and navigated by counting sandhills in low vis.

[megle2]

Yep, that was pretty normal back then
Well remember my first trip to the desert, found the leveled bit and landed feeling a large amount of pride until ....... taxiing in there were these little tins every so often. No one told me they also came in at night

Just the same even though you can construct a rough circuit pattern / levels on the Proline 21 if you choose, it's still a very good effort by the RFDS troops

Probably don't get as much practice at it these days, so well done

[Swamp Duck]

Yep, that was pretty normal back then
Well remember my first trip to the desert, found the leveled bit and landed feeling a large amount of pride until ....... taxiing in there were these little tins every so often. No one told me they also came in at night

Just the same even though you can construct a rough circuit pattern / levels on the Proline 21 if you choose, it's still a very good effort by the RFDS troops

Probably don't get as much practice at it these days, so well done

Construct a circuit based on what? No, still done the way it always was, hand flown.

We probably get more practice as GPS allows us to do a lot more night flying.

Old school flying requires old school techniques. I do hope that modern pilots haven't lost the ability to turn the automation off and just fly the plane.

[PLovett]

I did a 14 month stint where I could be required to fly to a remote community or cattle station for a medical evacuation. When I arrived I found very little by way of assistance in the Ops Manual but a heap of RFDS material. By the time I left that job, unwillingly but that is another story, I had put together a data base of all the strips I could be required to fly into, their lengths, directions, elevations, lighting and grid LSALTs' (the aircraft didn't have RAD ALT) for a cloud break should it be necessary. It also included notes regarding surrounds and how robust the strip was to rain. The approach flown was consistent no matter what the strip and practiced in the daytime. In the time I was in the job I only had to do 2 recoveries at night but I was extremely glad I had worked out an approach before having to do it for real.

[megle2]

Swamp, you could construct it off your last position or of course your destination and use it as a guide / check while you hand fly

[emeritus]

Thanks guys for an interesting thread. Makes a pleasant change from the all too common ranting.

In a previous life I was taught the finer points of bush flying by Arthur Schutt and it is interesting to hear the methods used these days.

The only thing missing is the Bar and a few beers !

Emeritus.

[Swamp Duck]

Swamp, you could construct it off your last position or of course your destination and use it as a guide / check while you hand fly

Why bother, Isn't it easier to just fly the plane. Sometimes technology just complicates things. KISS principle.

[compressor stall]

I left the RFDS gig for another "bush" operation where landings were in conditions of the exact reverse. Some cloudy days it was all white outside, sky and ground, and just a couple of black dots marking the threshold. Nothing else to see at all in the circuit. Even in the flare. Power off when it went bump. Great fun. I miss it.

[PLovett]

Hey stallie, I remember some of those fantastic piccies you posted here. Awesome stuff.

[Swamp Duck]

How do you get an accurate airport reference point? Inaccurate data on outback airstrips could lead to error. Prefer headings and timings based on visual cues, also track made good bug and RA are very useful tools.

[thorn bird]

Emeritus,
wholeheartedly agree, wonderful to read these posts and see the skills
these guys maintain, and hopefully pass on to the next generation,
But goodness me "The only thing missing is the Bar and a few beers !".
Bite your tongue!!! In Todays toxic regulatory environment??
Admit to that and you would be branded a substance abuser and face a year of testing and expense to prove your not.

Ah the memories, probably learnt more in the bar after the hanger doors were closed from the "Grey beards" than I learnt anywhere else. Those days are gone.
Now its ticks in boxes and be-damned to them that have bin there done that, the grey beards experiences stands for nothing in this modern world.

Glad to see that despite our regulator knowledge and experience bush flying is being passed down and these very basic skills maintained.

It was a lot more fun in the bar after the hanger doors were closed but.

[megle2]

Duck, no ones trying to convince you to change, they are only comments as it can be a useful aid

I don't know what the RFDS have in their SOP's, but I'm sure some one can enlighten us

As 601 reminded us it used to be common and this effort probably only made the news as Marketing / PR thought it might help donations, fair enough

[Swamp Duck]

Duck, no ones trying to convince you to change, they are only comments as it can be a useful aid

I don't know what the RFDS have in their SOP's, but I'm sure some one can enlighten us

As 601 reminded us it used to be common and this effort probably only made the news as Marketing / PR thought it might help donations, fair enough

I understand that megle2, not challenging you, just passing on what I have found in my experience in bush flying.

I can tell a story of a new pilot we had that was about to do his first car light landing training and check. He explained to us that he was going to build a circuit in the FMS complete with extended centrelines Etc. as that would make it easier and programmed the box prior to departure all chuffed that he was going to show us something new.

All went well until arrival overhead the car headlight lit strip when he found the GPS coordinates for the runway were out by around 2nm which made none of what he had programmed useable.

Not a criticism, he just didn't know what he didn't know. Does now.

These are not surveyed runways with accurate data. They are dirt outback station strips. The data is plenty accurate enough to find the airstrip but not for building circuits, extended centrelines etc.

If I wished to circle overhead instructing the people on the ground I would certainly use ALT HOLD and HEADING with the autopilot engaged. Once flying the circling approach it is back to hand flown timings and headings, as per our SOP's.

Proline 21 is a very fancy glass cockpit which is awesome for flying in controlled airspace, approaches etc. but feed it inaccurate data try to build something from that would be very dangerous. The features of the Proline which are useful over an old six pack during these outback night circling approaches are the wind vector, ground speed, track made good bug and radar altimeter.

The media frenzy that has occurred over this was strangely enough started over some photos taken by the flight nurse on the night posted on the RFDS Facebook page. Dunny roll landings are considered fairly normal in RFDS operations but I guess not many people were aware of that, they are now. It generated over 7500 likes and about 1200 shares in a couple of days which got the attention of ABC radio who were equally fascinated and requested a radio interview then away it went from there all over the world, crazy. Just grabbed people's attention, not a deliberate PR stunt.

[Band a Lot]

Swamp Duck,

I did my time as a appy with the RDFS back in starting back in 85.

That was a transition time from piston to turbine and installation of Omega for Christmas/Cocas Islands.

I got the job because I was from the bush, even then dunny rolls worked better than car lights.


Utmost respect for all at the staff RFDS - Cleaner to CEO at each base.

[Swamp Duck]

Swamp Duck,

I did my time as a appy with the RDFS back in starting back in 85.

That was a transition time from piston to turbine and installation of Omega for Christmas/Cocas Islands.

I got the job because I was from the bush, even then dunny rolls worked better than car lights.


Utmost respect for all at the staff RFDS - Cleaner to CEO at each base.

Respect back to you Band a Lot, pre GPS, real old school. Would love to hear some of your stories, please share :)

[ACMS]

Would someone please write a book.....:ok:

[Band a Lot]

A book would be great, but some rules were pushed back then that would now be considered broken. Would be a shame to see a lifes saved and a pilot hung 30 years later.

Before the first flights to Christmas and Cocas took place, and after they had done a few, the plan if any thing looked like going a bit pear shaped was to shut down an engine. This was not written ops but may buy enough time to rectify what issues were changing (weather/nav aids)

This if not already passed, extended the point that return to mainland had to be made. If these guys could find a way to get to you - They would.

Balls to shut a engine down mid ocean at night to extend the point of no return on a Omega Nav installation.