One section of Australian aviation booming – CASA

[Dick Smith]

Have a look at page 19 of today’s The Australian newspaper here (http://rosiereunion.com/file/CASA%20jobs.jpg). There is a nearly half page advertisement for new CASA positions, paying up to $160,000 per year including super. These ads seem to run all the time. It is clear that CASA is putting more and more people on, and these extra people have to justify their existence so they come up with more and more onerous rules.

I have an idea. Why don’t all the people in GA move over to working for CASA? Then we will have a viable industry again.

[Lead Balloon]

Trouble is that CASA staff drive everywhere that can't be reached by RPT. GA aircraft Ops into little airstrips are too scary for CASA!

[Jabawocky]

So true Pb Balloon :ok:

I was having this discussion with a couple of friends at Old Station recently, one friend now flies his twin comanche to events as it is direct and just as reliable (IFR) in getting there, and his crew bring the performance plane ahead of time. The other friend who has been in aviation a long time, thousands of hours, instructor owner of several planes and now works for CAsA was saying he can't take his own certified airworthy Cessna from YCAB to YOSN.

Seriously all three of us were comparing notes on time to site and so on.....it was a laugh, and the CASA guys were shrugging their shoulders and saying WTF as well.

Now I know in some cases this might be for the best, but not on this occassion.

I departed that evening and was back at YRED before 7pm and home by 7.30. Try doing that with RPT. :ugh:

[muddergoose]

Is it also possible the culture from within is toxic for some, therefor, consistent turnover? We should be expressing concern at this fact if it is the case and the reduced duty of care creating an unsafe environment for them and us.

[Lead Balloon]

... now works for CAsA was saying he can't take his own certified airworthy Cessna from YCAB to YOSN.It will be because of insurance and WHS issues.

Just goes to show what a cluster the whole system has become.

It's acceptably safe for the CASA jobsworths to drive all the way to places like William Creek and Arkaroola from Adelaide - hours and hours on undivided secondary roads - but not acceptably safe for them to fly there. And when they get there, they presume to determine operators to be acceptably safe to fly members of the public around. If a member of the public jumps on board a GA aircraft and pays for a scenic from Arkaroola to William Creek, CASA says that's OK, and there's insurance cover for the pax. But it's not OK for the CASA jobsworths to do that, because of insurance and WHS issues.

Only government bureaucracy could create such surreal stupidity.

(It's all about "safety", TB, don't you know.)

[thorn bird]

Lead,

CAsA

Safety don't enter into it.

Dicks remarks are pertinent above, given the latest statistics from AOPA.
Given the indicated decline in GA, should that be matched with a commensurate cut in CAsA's budget?
In other words their funding should be in line with industries performance.

There is a story doing the rounds that a new funding model is being discussed for CAsA because
due to the marked reduction in consumption of avgas and avtur, excises no longer provides
sufficient funding.

In other words CAsA is biting the hand that feeds it.

Dicks contention that to be viable, everyone in industry should join CAsA is a good idea, at least we'd all get a regular guaranteed income.

[Cloudee]

I did contemplate joining CASA but decided my love of flying would result in a serious conflict of interest.

[Fantome]

Got to be real careful this kind of reporting does not do your head in.


How about one operator who had to fly his medium size corporate jet to Sydney so his crew could undertake an OPC with a CAsA FOI because there were not enough opal cards issued for the FOI to catch a train to BK?
A taxi to BK? about $70.
Cost to fly from BK to SY with all the attendant fees for landing, FBO charges, flight time and fuel? about $6000.

Would the Minister confirm . . . . ? Needs to be asked when parliament sits again. Pronto.

Keep the pressure on. Give all these latest shiny-bums work, seeing if they can come up with honest answers for the minister, to every question, whether on notice or not.

and who's that little bloke with the specs outside on the steps? he looks to be trying to flog a swag of remaindered copies of something called - '25 years in aviation's hall of doom'.

if you ask for a signed copy you'll probably get a singed one instead.

[drpixie]

drive all the way to places like William Creek and Arkaroola from Adelaide - hours and hours on undivided secondary roads - but not acceptably safe for them to fly there.

Lead Balloon - but note that CASA charge for their time ... so how does an hour or two in an aircraft (job done in a day) compare with a day's drive, overnight, job, overnight, and a day's drive back to Adelaide?

[thorn bird]

drpixie,

What you allude is small potatoes.

What about the operator attempting to gain an international approval on their AOC.

Requirement by their allocated CAsA FOI, despite the fact that amongst the companies senior pilots the total INTERNATIONAL experience amounted to over fifty thousand hours.

A proving flight?

The FOI required the company to ferry the aircraft to Darwin from Karratha, Pay for him and his AWI mate to fly from Adelaide to Darwin, business of course, pay for three days accommodation, 5 star of course plus their allowances etc.
Then operate empty from Darwin to Dilli with just the FOI and his mate the AWI on board, the proving part, land, then back to Darwin.
Total time in International airspace, about 40 minutes, from TOPD to land, and from Take off to TOPC.

Amongst the raft of NCN's issued....the FO had trouble gaining contact on HF and required retraining. Is there anyone in the world who have used HF never had trouble on occasions gaining contact?

The FO had trouble understanding "Singlish" by the Dilli controllers because he had to ask them to repeat instructions a couple of times, suggested the Chief Pilot should have gone to Dilli prior to the "Proving flight" to lecture the controllers on correct English, alternatively, submitted a syllabus for approval for a course in "Singlish" for aircrew.
All the NCN's were in a similar vein, not a single one addressing anything remotely connected with safety.

After expending estimated fifty grand on an AOC extension???

They receive an international approval that requires them to complete a "proving flight" before they can actually DO a flight.

And people wonder why the Industry is going down the gurgler. These sort of costs are unsustainable.

Should it cost a quarter million and over two years for an AOC to operate a light jet? and before you "experts" jump in, their manuals etc were produced by ex CAsA employees. The problem with that is you need to be a mind reader to know how, whoever is approving your manuals, interprets the rules, which is why the first question some of the pro manual writers ask is "Who's your FOI"?. "Ah you need a billyblowfly manual" let us know if this changes we have manuals to cover most FOI's in your region.

Should it cost a hundred thousand dollars and over a year to add another aircraft to an AOC?

Compare... In New Zealand you will be quoted a cost and a time to complete for an AOC, usually about eight grand and eight weeks.

In the US, about the same time, cost? Zilch.

[TBM-Legend]

Dick,

Good win on Ozemite now for some Dyna-Mite under CASA...!

[jas24zzk]

Dicks contention that to be viable, everyone in industry should join CAsA is a good idea, at least we'd all get a regular guaranteed income.

And on that sort of money, blokes like me would certainly do a lot more flying.

-----------------------------------------

Dick, doing a rough out on the actual earnings @160k, whilst not lazy, hides an important point.

15.4% super!!!!! DAFUQ? 5.9% over and above us 'plebs'
Justification?
Pure Polly sucker kickback

[Obidiah]

drpixie,

What you allude is small potatoes.

What about the operator attempting to gain an international approval on their AOC.

Requirement by their allocated CAsA FOI, despite the fact that amongst the companies senior pilots the total INTERNATIONAL experience amounted to over fifty thousand hours.

A proving flight?

The FOI required the company to ferry the aircraft to Darwin from Karratha, Pay for him and his AWI mate to fly from Adelaide to Darwin, business of course, pay for three days accommodation, 5 star of course plus their allowances etc.
Then operate empty from Darwin to Dilli with just the FOI and his mate the AWI on board, the proving part, land, then back to Darwin.
Total time in International airspace, about 40 minutes, from TOPD to land, and from Take off to TOPC.

Amongst the raft of NCN's issued....the FO had trouble gaining contact on HF and required retraining. Is there anyone in the world who have used HF never had trouble on occasions gaining contact?

The FO had trouble understanding "Singlish" by the Dilli controllers because he had to ask them to repeat instructions a couple of times, suggested the Chief Pilot should have gone to Dilli prior to the "Proving flight" to lecture the controllers on correct English, alternatively, submitted a syllabus for approval for a course in "Singlish" for aircrew.
All the NCN's were in a similar vein, not a single one addressing anything remotely connected with safety.

After expending estimated fifty grand on an AOC extension???

They receive an international approval that requires them to complete a "proving flight" before they can actually DO a flight.

And people wonder why the Industry is going down the gurgler. These sort of costs are unsustainable.

Should it cost a quarter million and over two years for an AOC to operate a light jet? and before you "experts" jump in, their manuals etc were produced by ex CAsA employees. The problem with that is you need to be a mind reader to know how, whoever is approving your manuals, interprets the rules, which is why the first question some of the pro manual writers ask is "Who's your FOI"?. "Ah you need a billyblowfly manual" let us know if this changes we have manuals to cover most FOI's in your region.

Should it cost a hundred thousand dollars and over a year to add another aircraft to an AOC?

Compare... In New Zealand you will be quoted a cost and a time to complete for an AOC, usually about eight grand and eight weeks.

In the US, about the same time, cost? Zilch.

Completely beggars belief if this is a fair and factual account, there must have been an overwhelming desire to front the Minister with all this information and ask for an explanation.

Sadly that overwhelming desire likely checked by the sobering realisation that to do so would likely lead to underhanded reprisals.

The reality for these poor folk is just a world of stress and frustration and all the adverse health outcomes that flows from it.

It has been said that we follow the US just about 20 years behind, following the present circus their election race has become it is becoming apparent to many commentators that behind many Trump supporters, excluding perhaps the loopy card holding tea party members, are countless individual stories like this one.

People have become so desperate, so frustrated, so disillusioned they feel that Donald Trump might just be their only hope.

IMHO we are heading the same way but it won't take 20 years, you may mock, but if things do not improve in the way our governments continually bury us in red tape then we may well see a scenario where the likes of One Nation become a dominant political force. Already I can start to see some merit in that concept....just frightening.

For those who have been avid John Deakin/Pelican Perch followers you may recall his article some 15 years back called Radium Dials. This was a story about the EPA persecution of an old semi retired collector of vintage aircraft equipment. Over the course of a couple years he fought the EPA spending every last dollar he had to save his ~million dollar collection of spares from destruction by the EPA

Apparently the EPA deemed the collection to be a public hazard as there were a few boxes of old instruments in amongst all this collection with radon painted numbers and needles (luminescent). The radium signature was by even the EPA's account similar to the natural back ground levels.

After a protracted expensive fight they destroyed his whole collection.....just to be on the safe side.

Interestingly I recently went looking for that article in John's Pelican Perch archives, it seemed to be the only one missing, maybe I just had a blokes look...maybe??

[aroa]

CAsA's "Code of (Mis)Conduct....

Apart from the examples here of great costs to the industry, one of the 'code' values is Not to waste Public money.
Just one of the code items like Honesty and Fair Dealing that man CAsA persons dont give a rats about.

Heres a little wastage story.....

CAsA has a prosecution chucked out by the CDPP. They could smell BS when its presented.
The leading CAsA person hot for a conviction, the Manager Compliance and Enforcement and/ or Investigations (sic) who couldnt even follow her own Manual protocols wants to know why the case went tits up.

The leading SAWI was to be quizzed....WTF happened ????

So here in the age of Skype, email and 'phones THREE CAsA worthies FLY to TVL accommodate themselves in abject luxury and have a jolly little break in the warmth of FNQ...poor dears, its bloody freezing in CBR in August.
So on the Monday the SAWI is asked ONE question. And I quote from the record...
"What do you think went wrong, Peter" (Larard)
" I didnt re -read my sworn statement and used the generic term 'elevators'"
"Oh, very good Peter, that sounds all fair and reasonable"
End of Interview. !!

Not ONE question was asked about how this so called highly paid "senior" AWI claimed in sworn statements with others to have all seen LEFT and Right elevators lying on the ground and being reattached later.

And CAsA goes into overdrive to protect these bastards..

THis industry needs more than just changes with CAsA we NEED and DEMAND either a JUDICIAL INQUIRY or a ROYAL COMMISSION into the whole rotten stinking edifice and some of the evil buggers that inhabit the place.

Until ALL CAsAs dirty washing is hung out in the public domain NOTHING will change.

Even in the Aus article ...the CAsA spokesman said.....and the evasion for being responsible for the current shambles begins....

There are a million like stories out there ob CAsA buggery supreme and this was just one of them.

[rammel]

Thorn Bird's post is all true and correct. But how do you combat it? If you complain you're seen as a trouble maker and then more hoops are placed in front of you.

I have heard another story that a company was told that a pilot should not be put up to be trained as a Training and Checking pilot as he was unsuitable. The fact of this is that he was the most suitable and experienced pilot within the company, but the reason for him being unsuitable was that he asked too many questions at a Part 61 information session. The questions were the same as every other pilot has asked and were all along the lines of what the CASA working group is working on as well as the exemptions already listed.

The company spent untold amounts of money employing pilots from outside to become Training and Check pilots. While some of these pilots had held Training and Checking roles elsewhere, none had flown the aircraft types that the company operated previously. Whereas the suitable pilot within the company had 1000hrs + in command of each aircraft the company operated, as well as a current Grade 1 Instructor Rating. The outcome of all this is untold money was spent for no good reason other than CASA not liking someone. The CASA FOI at that time was the same one as Thorn Bird's tale. That FOI has moved on and now the guy who was the most suitable person at this company for Training and Checking is a Training and Check pilot. The flip side is that from all reports the new FOI is actually not too bad.

But what do you do? Tell CASA to "get f###ed", we'll train who we want? Or just bend over and take the pineapple?

[Hasherucf]

There seems to be a perception from the GA engineering side that if join CASA you are either a sellout or incompetent. Not sure that is real or perceived.

[Mr Approach]

drpixie,

What you allude is small potatoes.

What about the operator attempting to gain an international approval on their AOC.

Requirement by their allocated CAsA FOI, despite the fact that amongst the companies senior pilots the total INTERNATIONAL experience amounted to over fifty thousand hours.

A proving flight?

The FOI required the company to ferry the aircraft to Darwin from Karratha, Pay for him and his AWI mate to fly from Adelaide to Darwin, business of course, pay for three days accommodation, 5 star of course plus their allowances etc.
Then operate empty from Darwin to Dilli with just the FOI and his mate the AWI on board, the proving part, land, then back to Darwin.
Total time in International airspace, about 40 minutes, from TOPD to land, and from Take off to TOPC.

Amongst the raft of NCN's issued....the FO had trouble gaining contact on HF and required retraining. Is there anyone in the world who have used HF never had trouble on occasions gaining contact?

The FO had trouble understanding "Singlish" by the Dilli controllers because he had to ask them to repeat instructions a couple of times, suggested the Chief Pilot should have gone to Dilli prior to the "Proving flight" to lecture the controllers on correct English, alternatively, submitted a syllabus for approval for a course in "Singlish" for aircrew.
All the NCN's were in a similar vein, not a single one addressing anything remotely connected with safety.

After expending estimated fifty grand on an AOC extension???

They receive an international approval that requires them to complete a "proving flight" before they can actually DO a flight.

And people wonder why the Industry is going down the gurgler. These sort of costs are unsustainable.

Should it cost a quarter million and over two years for an AOC to operate a light jet? and before you "experts" jump in, their manuals etc were produced by ex CAsA employees. The problem with that is you need to be a mind reader to know how, whoever is approving your manuals, interprets the rules, which is why the first question some of the pro manual writers ask is "Who's your FOI"?. "Ah you need a billyblowfly manual" let us know if this changes we have manuals to cover most FOI's in your region.

Should it cost a hundred thousand dollars and over a year to add another aircraft to an AOC?

Compare... In New Zealand you will be quoted a cost and a time to complete for an AOC, usually about eight grand and eight weeks.

In the US, about the same time, cost? Zilch.
Thorn Bird - I know a bloke who works for CASA and he told me they are required to travel domestically on the lowest available fare, no flexible tickets are allowed and their accommodation must comply with some determination that the tax office puts out that gives the maximum a businessman can claim when travelling to various parts of Australia. Luxury apparently is not mentioned by the tax office! He must work for a different CASA to your characters.

[wishiwasupthere]

Now now Mr Approach, never let the truth get in the way of a good ol' PPRUNE rant.

:=

[Lead Balloon]

If it's the truth you want, let's have the whole truth.

They do get business class travel paid for if the trip is in excess of a specified number of hours.

And the "ATO accommodation rates" plus allowances will pay for very, very handsome accommodation, if it's not 5 star.

None of which is relevant to the point I was making: If CASA staff are going to a place that has an airstrip, to spread their wisdom and regulatory joy amongst the local operator/s, commercial pilots and intinerant and local private pilots, they should fly there. If it's too risky and uninsurable for them to be pilots or pax of GA aircraft during working hours, how can it be acceptably safe and insureable for the saps who fund their activities? Sorry, but someone who has drive all the way to William Creek to lecture me about getting there and back safely in an aircraft has ZERO credibility in my eyes, and the defence "I have no choice" is, in my eyes, no defence at all.

Nor can I see what it has to do with CASA refusing to jump on a train or in a taxi to go to YSBK, if the story is true. If the story is untrue, I don't understand why CASA does not simply call "BS". Lots of government agencies have "Correcting the Record" webpages and frequently put out press releases rebutting BS.

[wishiwasupthere]

They do get business class travel paid for if the trip is in excess of a specified number of hours.

And the "ATO accommodation rates" plus allowances will pay for very, very handsome accommodation, if it's not 5 star.

Hate to burst your bubble, but that's not unique to CASA when it comes to travel for public servants/Defence folk.

[thorn bird]

Wish,
CAsA delegates are not public servants, that is what they continually espouse.
They work for an independent Government corporation.

[Awol57]

This financial year if you go to Townsville you would be eligible for $143/night in accomodation. I don't know what it's like in FNQ but i can't imagine that would get you a "very, very handsome accomodation". Standard hotel/motel room probably yes.

[Lead Balloon]

Hate to burst your bubble, but that's not unique to CASA when it comes to travel for public servants/Defence folk.I'm not sure how my bubble is burst by pointing out something I already knew.

I merely contributed more "truth" into the implications of your earlier post. And I anticipate that the 'everyone else is doing it' defence, which is in effect: "CASA's snout is no deeper in the public trough than other government jobsworths", will ring quite hollow for those who have to work to fill those troughs.

TB: I have to say my presumptive response to all those stories of breathtaking, arrogantly unreasonable CASA behaviour is to call: "Bull****". The main reason for that is I understand that the justification for not providing names/dates/times/rego numbers/copies of correspondence is the fear of retribution. That's a complete nonsense.

The limited details provided are, if true, nonetheless sufficient to enable even the thickest of CASA's jobsworths to work out the operator to whom reference is made. Therefore, if CASA were minded to take reprisals against those who've exposed breathtaking, arrogant unreasonableness, CASA already knows the operators to whom these stories relate.

All of that said, CASA AVMED's return to the Dark Ages on CVD, and Mr Skidmore's support of it, is unassailable objective evidence of breathtaking, arrogantly unreasonable behaviour by CASA, so there's still doubt in my mind.

[Lead Balloon]

This financial year if you go to Townsville you would be eligible for $143/night in accomodation. I don't know what it's like in FNQ but i can't imagine that would get you a "very, very handsome accomodation". Standard hotel/motel room probably yes.And what is the pittance paid so that one can obtain some crumbs to sustain oneself?

And ... sigh ... the correct spelling of accommodation is accommodation. You have to try really hard to ignore the WSWS (Wrong Spelling Warning System) alarm to spell it incorrectly. You could have even copied and pasted my words, given that you purported to quote them.

[Awol57]

Turns out it's very easy to misspell on your phone.

Do we know for a fact that they get the full $269.60 in cash to spend how they like? Work books the accommodation for me and they definitely work to the $143 figure. Whilst I don't work for CASA I do work for the other one everyone loves to hate.

[Lead Balloon]

Gosh, I thought others were bursting my bubble by declaring the "truth".

I know the answer to your question. Do you?

I've worked for just about everyone that just about everyone loves to hate. :ok:

[Awol57]

I don't know the answer. I can say that I don't get the cash. No idea how they operate but I wouldn't have thought it would be to dissimilar. Maybe it is?

[Lead Balloon]

It's "too" dissimilar, not "to" dissimilar. (Unfortunately, just as an altimeter doesn't tell you your height above terrain, the WSWS doesn't highlight incorrect usage of homophones.)

I reckon if they're entitled to $269.60 a day in accommodation and meals, they're better off than about 80% of the saps whose taxes fill those troughs.

[Fantome]

thank you for that lead leadie. I had not come across the term homophone before .Initially I had some strange misinterpretations going on .
too crass to elaborate upon here .

you are not excessively pedantic at all . .. . you are placing the language and its uses in the context and regard that all should aspire to, naturally.
will you proof read my next drafts of pulp fiction submissions to the publisher , (i.e. Mills and Boon)?

Homophone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophone
A homophone is a word that is pronounced the same as another word but differs in meaning, and may differ in spelling. The words may be spelled the same, such as rose (flower) and rose (past tense of "rise"), or differently, such as carat, caret, and carrot, or to, two, and too.

[wishiwasupthere]

People who constantly point out grammar mistakes are pretty much jerks, scientists find - ScienceAlert (http://www.sciencealert.com/people-who-constantly-pick-up-grammar-mistakes-are-kinda-jerks-scientists-find)

Seems apt.

[Obidiah]

Gentlemen,

It is the Peoples Front of Judea.

Brian,....remember Brian?

32 post to drift from an important heads up between the disparity between the regulators state of viability and industries viability to squabbling over to or too.

Is it CASA or the gumbit who is the cause of our demise or is it us?

[Fantome]

the pity's sake you don't have to get on your high horse about a little digression about words. Nobody's squabbling about to or too or two . Bear in mind the originating poster made this
somewhat cynical, fatuous, smart-arse remark -

I have an idea. Why don’t all the people in GA move over to working for CASA? Then we will have a viable industry again

As far as an important heads up goes , point out, if you can, any post so far that goes beyond giving disturbing instances of a seriously malfunctioning arm of the bureaucracy. Look in vain for informed discussion focussing on reform , aimed at solutions . The pathetic head-banging emicon adds nothing to the debate.

[Clare Prop]

I hope that ad means that a certain AWI is going to be replaced.

It would be nice to have one who is familiar with CAR 42ZC.

[Lead Balloon]

Squabbling, Obidiah? I thought we were having a quite civilised discussion about, among other things, the allowances to which CASA staff are entitled. Those allowances are funded by ... the industry. And that seems to me to be of some relevance to the subject matter of this thread.

wishiwasupthere is just miffed because more truth was added to "the truth" to provide a more accurate version of "the truth". Jerks like me like winding jerks like wishiwasupthere up. It's fun. :ok:

[Obidiah]

Fair enough.

[Led Zep]

Interestingly I recently went looking for that article in John's Pelican Perch archives, it seemed to be the only one missing, maybe I just had a blokes look...maybe?? Yep, ya did.

The Pilot's Lounge #96: Bureaucrats Or Radium Dials -- Which Poses A Greater Danger? - AVweb Features Article (http://www.avweb.com/news/pilotlounge/191377-1.html)

:ok:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
As it happens, Jeff Pearson is an old mate of mine, even Kafka could not have imagined this one.
Not only was a business destroyed, but the biggest store of legacy instruments and parts in the USA, which means anywhere in the world.
The "radiation hounds" not only destroyed instruments that had some radium dials, the complete stock on two premises was destroyed as "contaminated", and as the article probably says, ALL the offending instruments, along with almost all rest, were US Government disposals, sold by US Government surplus sales, with, of course, no warning that "they" were going to come after him.
One thing I remember well, the virtually complete ignorance of what "radiation" is, among the bureaucratic activists, graduates all in "liberal arts", all we got was a blank stare when we asked if they were going to outlaw "nuclear medicine", or people standing in the sun.
In the end, it seemed like a competition between Federal and California EPA to come up with the stupidest requirements.
Jeff was in Australia last year, doing C-195 clinics, he had a great time --- CASA was not involved.
Tootle pip!!

[The Wawa Zone]

Remember Dick, when you first took over CAA (or was it ..?) the ratio of Dept staff to registered aircraft was 3:1, ie., 3 staff per aircraft.

Now that was safety !

CASA is no doubt working it's way back to this target ratio.