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Seldomfitforpurpose
10th Aug 2016, 22:47
Simply put, WTF?

Florida police shoot dead woman during safety exercise for local community (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-police-shoot-dead-woman-safety-exercise-role-play-local-community-punta-gorda-a7182131.html)

SOPS
10th Aug 2016, 23:18
What the hell is wrong with America and guns?

Axerock
10th Aug 2016, 23:36
SOPS
Nothing to worry about. Yes she was shot by police - however she is not black so her life does not matter.

Stanwell
11th Aug 2016, 01:44
While it's very sad that it happened...
The officer concerned was using a REAL loaded gun - as opposed to the other kind?
So now, WE ARE ALL ASKED TO PRAY?
Is something seriously wrong over there?

lomapaseo
11th Aug 2016, 02:06
Why is this a US problem?

Surely other countries use guns in their police duties somewhere.

I suppose that in some cases actual bullets are exchanged for blanks.

It would seem that somewhere along the line something went wrong with the exchange being noticed.

Now if this lack of attention or procedure is unique to the USA than go to it !

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 02:08
The question to ask, my friends, is how does a cop have such lousy control of his weapon. The training is generally a whole lot better than that.

Full disclosure: my brother in law is still a cop, now just over 20 years, and has never used his weapon in any of the may situations he has been in. He spent two years training other cops in a lot of stuff, to include firearms discipline. He has also trained a lot of his cops who were in his patrol sector in all of that Police Stuff.

As PILOTS (any of you who are not pilots are not welcome to comment on this point because You Really Don't Know) we know good and well how the training and the system prepares us for success or failure in our job.

Same is true for cops.

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 02:12
Clever. Use a real gun in a role play.

THAT is what's wrong with America. Stupidity - for those too stupid to understand.

West Coast
11th Aug 2016, 02:31
Shut this down.

Morons making blanket statements about a couple hundred million people, many who undoubtedly agree with gun control efforts.

Axerock
11th Aug 2016, 02:33
A less sarcastic post after my last one.

The purpose of these classes, i believe, is to involve the community in various situations that police have historically been involved in. It is a win / win situation that provides training for police as well as providing good PR for the public - where they can share in the experience and get a feel for how quickly things can turn sour, how quickly decisions need to be made, and get an understanding that real life is different from the TV shows.

The fact that a real gun and real ammunition was used during this exercise is cause for concern. If it was part of the exercise, it is stupidity of the highest magnitude! if it was accidentally included during the exercise, then it is negligence. Either way it is an epic fail. Even a real gun with blanks can be dangerous. At close range even blanks can kill.

There must be a safer way of doing this type of exercise with non lethal instruments and still achieve the same feeling of realism.

I remember watching a tv show about 25-30 years ago where they interviewed a group who were opposed to police violence. They set up scenarios (based on real life incidents) on a big screen and had an electronic nintendo type pistol and ran both them and some police offices through a number of scenarios. The police actually fired in less scenarios and fired less times. The others ended up going a little 'trigger happy' and shooting in situations where lethal force was not an option.

I remember that there was one situation where both groups 'killed' the suspect who refused to stop advancing when challenged and then whipped something out from behind his back. After the smoke cleared, we found out the person was deaf and was pulling out some ID to identify. I recall that the legal ruling for that scenario when it occurred in a real life was that the decision of the office to shoot was reasonable and the shooting was deemed a tragic accident.

I also remember another scenario where both groups did not fire and were deemed killed by the suspect when he started shooting.

I would not want to be a police officer in the US.

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 02:47
Shut this down.

Morons making blanket statements about a couple hundred million people, many who undoubtedly agree with gun control efforts.

You reckon it's that many? I wouldn't have gone that high to be honest but I'll defer to your first hand knowledge...in this instance.

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 03:01
Chesty, you could have said something intelligent, about policy or training.
Or, you could have said something stupid.

Your choice was made, and the irony of your calling others stupid resonates.

galaxy flyer
11th Aug 2016, 03:15
Just goes to show the futility of "training" being the answer. It takes a bone-deep commitment to safety--loads of police are involved in ADs, a rate probably not greatly different from civilian population.

GF

West Coast
11th Aug 2016, 03:56
Chesty, you could have said something intelligent, about policy or training.
Or, you could have said something stupid.

CM has never offered a cogent argument, the above represents his standards. Happy to debate any one who wants to debate, problem is he doesn't want to or is incapable of doing so.

jack11111
11th Aug 2016, 05:40
Approximately 330 million US population.

Curious Pax
11th Aug 2016, 06:09
I'm as bewildered by the US and guns as many Europeans, but in this instance we should be careful about casting stones: Dedicated Greater Manchester Police officer was shot dead in ?deeply flawed training exercise? - Manchester Evening News (http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/dedicated-greater-manchester-police-officer-4398462).

Perhaps the current trend in the US is related to the gaming generation coming through the ranks. It's always been a suspicion that they become immune to the reality of letting off a loaded gun in real life. Either way perhaps a training issue?

Kudos to Lonewolf's B-I-L who must have faced a few life and death situations in his time. It must be acknowledged how easy it is to sit here second guessing these situations, so going 20 years without letting off a shot is impressive. Though I am assuming his beat isn't Rodeo Drive!

Toadstool
11th Aug 2016, 06:23
This is not an argument about the rights and wrongs of guns. This is about the lack of training or, to be more precise, the lack of adherence to training.

In my country we have much fewer weapons. Access to weapons is predominately for those in either the armed forces or the police. Sometimes, during weapon training or on the range, there are negligent discharges which can lead to injury or death. In the vast majority of these cases, there is an error in drill either wilfully or not.

In this case, tragically, it looks like the police officer may have neglected his basic training when carrying out his Normal Safety Procedures. He isn't the first and unfortunately he won't be the last.

Hempy
11th Aug 2016, 06:57
Theres a video on Liveleak of the body cam footage of a deputy jumping out his car and firing at a moving vehicle. At one stage his partner was between himself and the suspect but he just kept blatting away...how he missed his partner I don't know, on the slow mo it looks like he lets one off while his gun is pointed right at him, but his hands are moving fast. He then keeps blasting away down a suburban street, with another cruiser heading straight at him...

If I can find it again I'll post it. It makes the mind boggle

flydive1
11th Aug 2016, 08:19
Hempy, this:

Videos of deadly cop shooting show procedural errors, confusion over shots - Chicago Tribune (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-police-shooting-paul-oneal-video-met-20160805-story.html)

What is scary is also the amount of rounds that were fired by all(15-20, more), in a residential area with other cops/people around. How many hits on target?

The cop that later killed the suspect said that he thought that he was armed because he felt round hitting close to him and felt in danger, but those rounds were fired by his colleagues.

That is very scary.

Tankertrashnav
11th Aug 2016, 09:40
Further to curious pax's post, police stupidity where weapons are concerned is not confined to the other side of the pond - we have our own muppets here

Girl, seven, injured as police officer fires gun during prize-winners' visit - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11214404/Girl-seven-injured-as-police-officer-fires-gun-during-prize-winners-visit.html)

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2016, 09:49
eP6UvNgbqIA

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 10:10
No need to shut the Thread down because of moronic posts....each of us has the ability to simply or technically ignore what is said by those who are merely trolling or showing their lack of grasp of the issues.

I am getting better at the first method and quite quick at the second.


Flydive.....you ever been in a firefight of any kind?

It can get very confusing in a hurry....despite the best training and discipline.

That is a risk inherent to such events as being discussed when it is a fluid situation and the various officers/soldiers are involved.



I had a fellow Officer shoot the drivers door rear view mirror off of a Lieutenant's Car, while the Lieutenant was squatted down behind the Door.

My Mate stated to the Inquiry Board that it was a simple accident caused by a lack of adequate caution while returning fire at two armed suspects who were engaging the Officers.

Knowing the Lieutenant and the Officer who did the shooting....I suspect that mirror was hit intentionally. That it was hit squarely in the middle as if One had drawn crosshairs on it add to my suspicion. My Mate was the guy on the Shooting Team who burst two Balloons by shooting an Axe head and parting the bullet into two pieces.

charliegolf
11th Aug 2016, 10:13
No judgement, just a couple of questions...

Was the gun supposed to be loaded with blanks? Was it likely to be an automatic?

If yes, then I recall my own service training, which required, when using blanks (with a rifle admittedly), that the weapon needed an attachment to suppress the exhausting of the gases, else there wouldn't be enough oomph to eject the case and chamber the next round.

That meant a big yellow doo-dah looking at you every time you go out to shoot. Not the case with auto pistols? Or was it a revolver?

As an aside, there used to be (still might be) a group of gun users in UK who routinely used live ammo in very close proximity to 'people. They certainly relied on their training to avoid own goals.

CG

bcgallacher
11th Aug 2016, 10:25
It all boils down to the simple fact that if you have many guns in society there is more chance of an idiot getting his hands on one.

strake
11th Aug 2016, 10:46
I've now realised how to deal with unfortunate business issues. When, upon reporting the bad news to my board and investors, they ask 'Well, what should we do?', my answer will be, 'PRAY'.

flydive1
11th Aug 2016, 10:47
Flydive.....you ever been in a firefight of any kind?

It can get very confusing in a hurry....despite the best training and discipline.

That is a risk inherent to such events as being discussed when it is a fluid situation and the various officers/soldiers are involved.

No, luckily I've never been in a firefight, and hopefully never will.
Been in shooting sessions but nobody was shooting back;)
Where I live I do not feel I do not feel the need to carry when I go shopping.

The fact that it can get confusing in a hurry speaks against the "if everybody was armed", can you imagine everybody shooting in a club, with loud music, low or flashing lights, quite a few drunks?
Or in a school, or...

By the way, is it still a firefight if only one side is doing the shooting? ;)

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 10:47
Chesty, you could have said something intelligent, about policy or training.
Or, you could have said something stupid.

Your choice was made, and the irony of your calling others stupid resonates.

Play the ball not the player. No defence of the stupidity of this death?

You think it's acceptable to use a real, loaded, weapon in a role play scenarios? Or do you think it was, perhaps, stupid?

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 10:48
CM has never offered a cogent argument, the above represents his standards. Happy to debate any one who wants to debate, problem is he doesn't want to or is incapable of doing so.

You can also play the ball not the player.

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 10:52
Lots of misconceptions about guns, CCW Permits, and related issues.

But that should not come as a surprise to anyone who attends JB and any thread that involves even remote mention of guns.

The classic one is "What if everyone started shooting in a crowded noisy place...what kind of mayhem would ensue?"

Why has that not happened yet?

If it had....don't you think the American Media with its Liberal Bias and anti-gun views be beating it to death? (Sorry...poor choice of wording!)

charliegolf
11th Aug 2016, 10:56
Flydive.....you ever been in a firefight of any kind?

It can get very confusing in a hurry....despite the best training and discipline.

So, you cite the 'fog of war', but you seem to condone...

I had a fellow Officer shoot the drivers door rear view mirror off of a Lieutenant's Car, while the Lieutenant was squatted down behind the Door.

My Mate stated to the Inquiry Board that it was a simple accident caused by a lack of adequate caution while returning fire at two armed suspects who were engaging the Officers.

Knowing the Lieutenant and the Officer who did the shooting....I suspect that mirror was hit intentionally. That it was hit squarely in the middle as if One had drawn crosshairs on it add to my suspicion. My Mate was the guy on the Shooting Team who burst two Balloons by shooting an Axe head and parting the bullet into two pieces.

You don't see the clash of ideas between those 2 quotes?

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 10:58
Play the ball not the player. No defence of the stupidity of this death?

You think it's acceptable to use a real, loaded, weapon in a role play scenarios? Or do you think it was, perhaps, stupid?
Chesty and bcgallacher:

Cops have guns and are supposed to carry them. That's how it works here. I am quite frankly appalled at this accidental death, since any organization that has to and does handle firearms as a matter of doing their jobs knows that when you set up an exercise there is a long litany of safety procedures necessary for the training to be effective, and to reduce hazards.

Obviously that system broke in this case. How in the heck a loaded firearm was part of that teaching/training exercise defies reason.

Critics are asking why a real gun was used during a role play

The criticism strikes me as missing the point.
Why was that firearm loaded?

It is unclear why a real gun and ammunition were used as part of a role play scenario in the Citizen's Academy, a series of classes used to educate selected residents about the operation of local government. Who set up this training/teaching exercise?

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 10:59
Why? Stupidity.

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 11:03
Chesty, if you ever investigated a fatal aircraft accident and returned a finding of "why? Stupidity." you'd be asked to never come back, and most likely would have gotten a butt chewing being lazy.

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 11:11
Charliegolf.....read the post very carefully.


There is no contradiction at all....none.

The second quote accurately describes a real incident and was quite deliberate an act.....and not something that happened due to "fog" of any kind.

The Officer took advantage of an opportunity to scare the hell out of an overbearing Supervisor that was uniformly disliked. It worked too!

We can take issue with what he did....but even the Internal Affairs Investigation cleared him of any intentional wrong doing and presented him with the Mirror as a keepsake.

I suppose he benefited from the Clinton Defense offered her by the Director of the FBI but well ahead of her time.



Lone,

Modern Training often uses Simunition.....non-lethal low powered rounds similar to Paint Balls in some training evolutions.

But as you say....Live Ammunition and Real Guns....in any kind of Training Scenario except for Live Fire Training on an approved Firing Range, Shoot House, or other typical location is an absolute No-No!

Colored In-Operative Training Weapons should be the norm unless either Simunition or Live Rounds are to be used just so there can be no mistake about the safety of the weapon.

http://simunition.com/en/

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Aug 2016, 11:30
What the hell is wrong with America and guns?
Nothing at all, they like it like that.


If they didn't like it they'd change it, they claim to be a democracy after all.


The occasional collateral damage is, they believe, a price worth paying for their "god"-given "right" to wave their willy extensions


Simple solution: don't go there.

charliegolf
11th Aug 2016, 11:34
The Officer took advantage of an opportunity to scare the hell out of an overbearing Supervisor that was uniformly disliked.

When he should have been supporting his colleagues in what you didn't CALL a firefight, but was clearly one. Whose back did your mate have that day?

flydive1
11th Aug 2016, 11:36
The classic one is "What if everyone started shooting in a crowded noisy place...what kind of mayhem would ensue?"

Why has that not happened yet?

Maybe because not everybody(not even most) is armed in clubs and schools?
(yet)

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 11:42
Chesty, if you ever investigated a fatal aircraft accident and returned a finding of "why? Stupidity." you'd be asked to never come back, and most likely would have gotten a butt chewing being lazy.

Good job this isn't an official investigation of an aircraft accident then. But still, that doesn't disprove anything.

Stupid to use a real gun.
Stupid not to check it was loaded.
Stupid to take the safety off.
Stupid to actually pull the trigger.

Still, one good thing might come from this attempt to educate citizens and that is you are likely to be shot by the police. But then we all knew that anyway.

Cazalet33
11th Aug 2016, 11:50
Approximately 330 million US population.

By what process do they filter in the idiots to give a gun and a uniform?

Who actually regulates this well regulated militia?

I know it's a terribly shallow pool in which to fish, but can't they find any suitable and competent people whom to arm?

Hempy
11th Aug 2016, 12:00
Despite what some here say, there are plenty of youtube videos and blogs that claim that most police receive minimal and inadequate training, especially in firearms. This is because they are putting more cops on the street but haven't increased their capacity to train them.

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 12:34
CG....you still don't get it do you?

chksix
11th Aug 2016, 13:02
It says he shot a dead woman so no problem, right?

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 13:09
This is because they are putting more cops on the street but haven't increased their capacity to train them.
There seems to be a grain of truth in that. I meet with about once a month a group of old farts at a local watering hole. One of them is a pretty senior police commander in our city. His observation on the training and professionalism of cops is that it varies widely by location. In the smaller towns and counties, the training budget, and for that matter the pay, is not as robust as in larger cites, and very much less robust than in major cities like Dallas and Houston. His observation is that a lot of the cops who start out in small towns don't make a good wage, and their departments have very modest training budgets. He also noted that when guys and gals from those locales make it to our PD as new hires, a non-trivial amount of training/retraining is usually necessary.


This particular tragic accident reminds me of then firearms handling accidents, sometimes fatal, in the military. There are safety measures in place, and the folks should be trained, but someone didn't go by the checklist. (or got in a hurry, or tried a short cut, or wasn't paying attention, hadn't gotten any sleep, etc ...)


I can see the DA writing up charges of negligent homicide on this one.
Obviously the city is going to get sued (and rightly so) for this wrongful death.
The number of people who get sacked I'll estimate as three minimum.
1. The person handling the loaded weapon that killed a citizen during this training/teaching event.
2. Whomever was running this teaching/training even with the local citizenry.
3. Maybe the chief of police, and/or whomever in the department is in charge of training.


What makes me sick is that what they were doing in this classroom environment fits into the general category of community policing, which is intended to improve trust, confidence, and communication between police and the citizens in their area. Talk about an epic failure to accomplish that objective ...

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 13:10
It says he shot a dead woman so no problem, right? Did you bother to read the entire article in the OP link?

chksix
11th Aug 2016, 13:22
Nope, I don't get involved in the US internal business ;)

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 13:37
Lone is spot on target in his quoting of the Police Commander.

The one exception I would suggest is that all "size of the Department does not necessarily correlate into better training".

As in any large organization there can be wide variation in the quality and effectiveness of the training organization.

Over time there has been much improvement overall but there is still a need for constant improvement as Policy, Procedures, Equipment, and Philosophy are constant changing...and not always for the better.

Political and Legal constraints along with public opinion affect how Police Agencies conduct their Operations and the underlying training.

AtomKraft
11th Aug 2016, 14:21
Call me 'old fashioned' if you like, but the organisation that instructed me in the use of arms said....

"Don't point a gun at someone, unless you intend to shoot them".

Seemed sensible then. Has something changed?

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 14:32
"Don't point a gun at someone, unless you intend to shoot them".
Spot on. Somebody forgot that basics and it ended in tears. And given the profession of the person in question, it ain't
"you shoulda known better"
it is
"you know better than that and you still did what?" :eek:


As SASless: good point. Each year various of our local cops apply for the very few training courses that get funded which are not local, but are provided by four training groups that our city has relationships with:
FBI
Texas Rangers
Houston PD
Dallas PD

Chesty Morgan
11th Aug 2016, 14:38
Spot on. Somebody forgot that basics and it ended in tears. And given the profession of the person in question, it ain't
"you shoulda known better"
it is
"you know better than that and you still did what?" :eek:




So, stupidity then?

charliegolf
11th Aug 2016, 14:59
CG....you still don't get it do you?

No, I admit I really don't. But I'm not convinced you do either.

AtomKraft
11th Aug 2016, 15:07
'So, stupidity then?'

I couldn't say for sure- but for a Country which so prides itself in the 'Right to bear arms', a little discipline in handling them might be useful...:hmm:

Sure, in the (British) Army, people still had the odd ND- but knowing you were getting 30 days in the Clink for it-and no pay or service earned- fairly concentrated minds....

The stuff that or SA instructors beat into me all those years ago remains embedded. It was knocked in so thoroughly, that I guess a sub-partition of my brains' RAM will always have it on hand.

If only all those 'arms bearing' folk in the US had been given such a thorough beasting, erm, training in the use of personal weapons, things might go better for them?

Loose rivets
11th Aug 2016, 15:14
I've gone from being a keen pistol shot to joining Flying Lawyer in my views on guns.

Quoting him as saying he doesn't like them would be an understatement.

But the fact is, like most things I do, I went totally OTT with the sport for as much as a decade. I profoundly regret it now because I cut back on piano and electronics, both of which were coming on quite well - fitting in with flying better than a lot of hobbies. But the lure of the gun is a mysterious passion that I'm sure was in my young mind long before it came into focus.

There were thousands of rounds lying in bomb craters nearby; some of which polished up nicely with Brasso. They became a glistening component in a trio of things needed to kill. The wide-eyed boy being the third.

It is beyond fortunate that the guns I had in my hand never coincided with the bullets. I hate to think. One vigilant father, just back from the war, whisked a Webley revolver out of my hands and took it down the local Nik. I explained to the visiting Bobby the next morning how we'd cut it out of some brambles. I didn't bother to mention one of the older boys had thrown it in there. I used my father's dress sward to hack at the bungalow sized blackberry bush and I can recall now the excitement of seeing it for the fist time in weeks, poised some 6' high and only an hour's more hacking away.

The next time was as a teenager and one lad was trying to sell his brother's Luger pistol. It was utterly mint, and the brother would no doubt have been somewhat mystified by its disappearance from his underwear draw - for ten seconds. His hands closing on his young brother's neck would have probably given him what he needed to find himself battering at my door not long after that. The brightly polished 9mm rounds may well have fitted it.

Shudder. But I, and perhaps others, missed that bullet. (I know. Sorry).


While on the range I witnessed a load of firearm bods turning up to show one of their colleagues some of the neat kit they'd purchased while training in America. Quick load things for dropping all the rounds into a revolver at once. They dropped the things several times but onto the ground. Each time with 6 rounds that needed to be cleaned of mud. Then they set about missing the targets . . . entirely. One was not impressed.

Then of course there was the poor soul who, in the stress of his first raid, shot a 5 year old in his bed. The officer I seem to recall, was a family man and I say poor soul, because it's unlikely he was ever the same again. Yes I'm deeply mindful of the other side of the tragedy.

Then there was the London Underground - what can I say? It was bewildering, and I will never believe that someone so pinned down needs such drastic action.

I've posting on here about another time my family 'missed that bullet'. I wrote it up very carefully, but will never post it again. Thinking of it makes me feel sick. One of those 'nothing happened' situations, but it might have done, and the power of the gun is so great, and so irreversible, that a moment's lack of attention could have . . .

G-CPTN
11th Aug 2016, 16:30
As a young newly-married but as then childless young man, pistol shooting was an activity that appealed to me and my wife, so we joined the local club.

I well remember on one occasion an American serviceman (we were close to Chicksands) turning up with a sturdy revolver - probably a .44 or .45.
He loosed 5 rapid shots at the target without one of them clipping the card, then he adopted 'the stance' with feet wide apart and crouched so that he could rest his hands on the 'stand' in front of him - with both hands gripping the weapon.
Squeezing the trigger gently (instead of the furious 'Wild West' rapid fire that he had adopted for the previous five shots, the bullet pierced the bull dead centrally.

"I gerse it is me and not the gern!" he drawled.

Krystal n chips
11th Aug 2016, 16:58
" The second quote accurately describes a real incident and was quite deliberate an act.....and not something that happened due to "fog" of any kind.

The Officer took advantage of an opportunity to scare the hell out of an overbearing Supervisor that was uniformly disliked. It worked too!

We can take issue with what he did....but even the Internal Affairs Investigation cleared him of any intentional wrong doing and presented him with the Mirror as a keepsake.

Sounds remarkably like the end credits in "National Lampoon's Animal House"....."shot by his own troops in Vietnam "....

Still, it's a wonderful insight into the mentality of an individual purporting to be law enforcement whilst happily shooting at another officer. Not to mention the fact that, if was as deliberate as you say, the Internal Affairs people must have been woefully stupid and seemingly supportive of his actions.

" My Mate was the guy on the Shooting Team who burst two Balloons by shooting an Axe head and parting the bullet into two pieces.

Yes it's generally the case it takes one little prick to burst a balloon.

Hempy
11th Aug 2016, 17:08
Not to mention that the 'law enforcement' officer presumably then perjured himself to investigators and IA.

charliegolf
11th Aug 2016, 17:17
Not to mention that the 'law enforcement' officer presumably then perjured himself to investigators and IA.

I think that bit is the bit that SAS feels, "I don't get."

CG

SASless
11th Aug 2016, 17:44
Perjury only applies during One lies having sworn to tell the Truth in a Legal Procedure such as a Court or Deposition.

IA investigations do not rise to that Standard. If the Officer lies and gets found out....he is at risk for his employment.




I think that bit is the bit that SAS feels, "I don't get."

CG

Hempy
11th Aug 2016, 17:57
Perjury only applies during One lies having sworn to tell the Truth in a Legal Procedure such as a Court or Deposition.

IA investigations do not rise to that Standard. If the Officer lies and gets found out....he is at risk for his employment.

Understood. So he was only a liar and not a perjurer :ok:

Lonewolf_50
11th Aug 2016, 18:36
I couldn't say for sure- but for a Country which so prides itself in the 'Right to bear arms', a little discipline in handling them might be useful...:hmm:
Suggests you not mix apples and oranges. This particular case has to do not with "right to bear arms" but "law officer who has firearm as standard equipment not properly doing what is basic gun handling safety."
As I noted previously, handling accidents like this still crop up now and again in the military. Your 2d Amendment ref is well off base.

Gertrude the Wombat
11th Aug 2016, 19:46
By what process do they filter in the idiots to give a gun and a uniform?
Don't they actually elect some policemen, so actual competence at handling guns has nothing whatsoever to do with it, just the ability to win elections?

Toadstool
11th Aug 2016, 22:42
Lonewolf

Suggests you not mix apples and oranges. This particular case has to do not with "right to bear arms" but "law officer who has firearm as standard equipment not properly doing what is basic gun handling safety."
As I noted previously, handling accidents like this still crop up now and again in the military. Your 2d Amendment ref is well off base.
Lonewolf_50 is online now Report Post

Exactly what I said 43 posts and several hours ago. Do keep up old boy.

Lonewolf_50
12th Aug 2016, 02:16
Amigo, I suggest you pass that message where it belongs, which would be he whom I admonished. That person did not bother to read and comprehend your post, so someone had to remind him.

I have kept up nicely, thanks very much.

vapilot2004
12th Aug 2016, 05:37
Clever. Use a real gun in a role play.

THAT is what's wrong with America. Stupidity - for those too stupid to understand.

Well, yes it is, CM. The stupidity is cultural - it's called "gun culture". Sociologists have studied it and it is a thing. However, not all Americans are stupid regarding guns - depending on which poll you look at, between 3/4 and 9/10 Americans support increased gun legislation.

By what process do they filter in the idiots to give a gun and a uniform?

Police and security screenings vary across the land according to local and state laws and, naturally much is left up to the capacity of the police force to screen cadets. It's a real crap...shoot.

'Filtration' is non-existent for buying just about any weapon, including semi-automatic assault style weapons for the general public - this will come around to bite us in the ass soon enough in the 'fight' against domestic terrorism. (Mateen, etc)

I know it's a terribly shallow pool in which to fish, but can't they find any suitable and competent people whom to arm?

Hey, hey now, Caz, I routinely swim at the deep end.:p

Who actually regulates this well regulated militia?


Short answer: nobody. God knows Democrats and Moderate Republicans have tried over the years. Since around the mid-1990's, if anyone in Congress even hints at talking about gun regulation, the NRA, the most powerful lobbying group in America (more powerful than big pharma, big Ag, big Oil, and even the MIC), shuts it down before anything can even get started.
Shut this down.


Wait, weren't you for Citizen's United - unlimited, untraceable campaign finance money in politics in full support of the 1st? What about our free speech, there, WC?

flydive1
12th Aug 2016, 11:00
What about our free speech, there, WC?

Well, that's available only if you say what I like;)

radeng
12th Aug 2016, 12:08
I know an American policeman who told me that the most frightening thing for him is when any of his colleagues draw their guns - he says many policemen shouldn't be let near a gun!

Strangely, a couple of UK policemen say exactly the same thing about the armed UK police.......

vapilot2004
13th Aug 2016, 10:03
According to the DOJ, police are given on average around 800 hours, or 21 weeks. Of this time, an average of 168 hours are spent on weapons training, while a mere 10 hours are spent on social issues like mental illness. Most states require a hair dresser (cosmetologist) to have more training than police, in some case, more than double.

Well, that's available only if you say what I like


That sounds like a cost. :p

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Aug 2016, 10:35
Most states require a hair dresser (cosmetologist) to have more training than police, in some case, more than double.
How come? - I can understand that a hairdresser needs state mandated health & safety training in the equipment and chemicals they use, but that can't need more than a day or three can it?


If it's just that they're crap at cutting hair, rather than actually dangerous, that's for the market to worry about, not the state, surely?

Ancient Mariner
13th Aug 2016, 10:41
Three years, bachelor at college here in Norway.
I'm not commenting on quality.
Per

G-CPTN
13th Aug 2016, 10:53
That's a shame, as, I understand, they aren't cutting hair any longer.

Gertrude the Wombat
13th Aug 2016, 11:22
Three years, bachelor at college here in Norway.
I'm not commenting on quality.
Per
Is that a legal requirement to get a licence to be a hairdresser, or is it in practice what you need to do in order to compete for jobs and customers?


I'm a software engineer. I do in fact have a degree and CEng and stuff, which I need in practice to compete for jobs and customers, but that's not state mandated - in the UK anybody can write code without any legally required formal training, certification or licence, if they can find someone to pay them to do it.

SASless
13th Aug 2016, 11:40
Your friend sounds exactly like a certain Female that worked in the Washington NCIS Office with me.....she asked other Agents to go with her any time she had to leave the Base to run Leads. When it was discovered she did not carry her Issued Pistol as she did not like firearms.....she found no one cared to have a Partner that could not carry their own weight! How awkward it was for her to discover we all felt she should be prepared to protect us as well as us being prepared to protect her.

Is your American Police buddy one of those kinds of people by chance?




I know an American policeman who told me that the most frightening thing for him is when any of his colleagues draw their guns - he says many policemen shouldn't be let near a gun!

Strangely, a couple of UK policemen say exactly the same thing about the armed UK police.......

Ancient Mariner
13th Aug 2016, 14:34
Is that a legal requirement to get a licence to be a hairdresser, or is it in practice what you need to do in order to compete for jobs and customers?


I'm a software engineer. I do in fact have a degree and CEng and stuff, which I need in practice to compete for jobs and customers, but that's not state mandated - in the UK anybody can write code without any legally required formal training, certification or licence, if they can find someone to pay them to do it.

Sorry, should have added: to be a standard foot patrolling police.

charliegolf
13th Aug 2016, 15:39
Your friend sounds exactly like a certain Female that worked in the Washington NCIS Office with me....

Can you get me Gibbs' autograph SAS?

CG

SASless
13th Aug 2016, 16:37
Mark Harmon plays "Me" but just ain't half as handsome or smart!:E

I used to really enjoy JAG when they were doing current issues affecting the Military....but have never watched an NCIS Program for more than two or three minutes.

Probably because of the lack of a certain kind of Marine Officer that JAG had in a leading role.:ok:

vapilot2004
13th Aug 2016, 22:01
How come? - I can understand that a hairdresser needs state mandated health & safety training in the equipment and chemicals they use, but that can't need more than a day or three can it?


If it's just that they're crap at cutting hair, rather than actually dangerous, that's for the market to worry about, not the state, surely?

I believe it goes beyond chemicals (for colour and straightening/perms), and there are health and disease subjects covered. For many states, the number of hours is 1,500 and the board certification is not an easy test to pass.

For police, pre-screening tests are given - these mainly focus on reading, basic math (I kid you not), and grammar skills, with some common sense judgment questions thrown in. A psych test and physical fitness evaluation is part of the screening as well. Cops are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer, as it turns out. The best of the best in the US are FBI, followed by state police, although this varies state by state, however the state troopers/police are generally the best trained in that state.

...and GtW, please don't call me Shirley.

flydive1
14th Aug 2016, 07:58
Your friend sounds exactly like a certain Female that worked in the Washington NCIS Office with me.....she asked other Agents to go with her any time she had to leave the Base to run Leads. When it was discovered she did not carry her Issued Pistol as she did not like firearms.....she found no one cared to have a Partner that could not carry their own weight! How awkward it was for her to discover we all felt she should be prepared to protect us as well as us being prepared to protect her.

Is your American Police buddy one of those kinds of people by chance?


I had a fellow Officer shoot the drivers door rear view mirror off of a Lieutenant's Car, while the Lieutenant was squatted down behind the Door..

Well, if the choice is between a partner that does not carry, and I'm aware of it, and one that shoots at me on purpose like your friend above or shoots at me making me feel under attack because they cannot control their guns like the ones in the video....well, at least with the non carrying I have to watch out only for the bad guys...

SASless
14th Aug 2016, 12:41
You have a problem understanding what you read?

The mirror was the Target...not the Lieutenant....or he would have been hit.

You did understand the Officer was on the Department Shooting DemonstrationTeam and did the Two Balloon Stunt by splitting a Bullet on anAxe Head as part of his role in Demo's?

You seemed to have missed the facts that the "target" was well known to be a bad Supervisor and at the end of it all IA "knew" what had happened and signaled so by presenting the dead Mirror to the Officer.

I can assure you the Mirror Killer is exactly the kind of Officer I would want to have standing with me in a gun fight....as any person who takes the Oath and pay check but refuses to perform the duties she took an Oath to perform is not a person I would want any where near me as they become a liability and burden.



Well, if the choice is between a partner that does not carry, and I'm aware of it, and one that shoots at me on purpose like your friend above or shoots at me making me feel under attack because they cannot control their guns like the ones in the video....well, at least with the non carrying I have to watch out only for the bad guys...