Any news on the whereabouts of the Australian FO involved with the DXB crash

[Fluke]

I hope with the tragic death of the Emirari fire fighter , the flight crew remain out of prison and are receiving appropriate councilling. Nasty place to be when a life is lost.

[Madame Bandit]

Nasty place to be when a life is lost.
Then you should know it's a nasty place to be if needing "counselling" not only at any other time. There is none. I would say "counselling" is the last thing he needs at the moment.

It's best to leave it alone on Prune. This guy is in a world of hurt and the media has got pictures off Facebook and blasting it worldwide. I do hope AIPA are in contact and attempting to assist. He's going to need it.

[wheels_down]

EK care about one thing. And that's it's image. Putting Pilots in jail will create a media frenzy right across the globe. Exposes the UAE's harsh tactics as they are working quite hard on promoting Dubai as a destination.

The only difference at play here compared to the Melbourne accident is we gave a local captain involved.

[3 Holer]

This guy is in a world of hurt ...........

Are you in contact with Jeremy? Do you correspond with him? How would you know "This guy is in a world of hurt " Madame?

[log0008]

As the other said we just need to respect his privacy - something the media has not done. Let's hope for his sake there is an open investigation (someone said that ATSB may be able to be involved considering he is still a licenced Australian pilot). I am sure those final seconds are playing over and over in his head as he to tries to work out why it happened.

[Ida down]

I hope with the tragic death of the Emirari fire fighter , the flight crew remain out of prison and are receiving appropriate councilling. Nasty place to be when a life is lost.last I heard was the Foreign Minister(Bishop) was asking him to get in touch. So The Govt are obviously concerned for his welfare. All our best wishes go out to him and his family. And well done CC. In the face of idiots who were more concerned about their laptops, then being incinerated, or the PAX they were blocking, need to be named, shamed, and fined.

[scavenger]

It's best to leave it alone on Prune

then

I do hope AIPA are in contact and attempting to assist. He's going to need it.

And

I would say "counselling" is the last thing he needs at the moment.


Your posts are drivel. :yuk:

[Seabreeze]

Back to topic.

Best of luck Jeremy!!!!!!!

[ratpoison]

Actually Dunda, I'd be pulling your app now my friend.
Some serious issues with the place and massive resignations weekly. It has all gone pear-shaped over the last 5-6 years.
The goaters are in serious trouble as more are leaving than been recruited. A lot are getting out even with NO job to go to. Very experienced guys and gals.
Two of my friends are in their last few days and taking a turboprop job back in Oz. One a 777 Capt and the other an A380 Capt. Now that is desperate stuff.
Something is very very wrong and it stinks to high heaven.:cool:

[Angle of Attack]

I'd rather fly a C150 doing circuits at Bankstown than live in that hole known as Dubai. Everything is wrong about the joint, close to Middle East Hotspots, Draconian laws, hell there isn't even any green grass there, it's just flying big jets into a fiery inferno hell hole. Each to their own, but I have never and will never consider it, even if there was no choice I would career change rather than working anywhere near Dubai. Your asking for trouble getting involved in that joint. Period.

[parabellum]

there isn't even any green grass there apart from a world class golf course, a racing track and a place to play cricket!

[Angle of Attack]

Ok there is some grass there, but please you know what I mean, I'm sure there are sandpits in Singapore Kindergartens too.

[wondrousbitofrough]

Yes, but it's all fake and man made. Just like it's Sheik Makmuppet and his world wide horse dealing corruption and vice.

St Andrews Golf course, Hyde Park in London, Central Park New York. All naturally occurring and maintained without any human intervention whatsoever...

Anyway, back to topic, the support and welfare of one of our colleagues (in case you'd all forgotten) who right now might just need it.

[Ida down]

Actually Dunda, I'd be pulling your app now my friend.
Some serious issues with the place and massive resignations weekly. It has all gone pear-shaped over the last 5-6 years.
The goaters are in serious trouble as more are leaving than been recruited. A lot are getting out even with NO job to go to. Very experienced guys and gals.
Two of my friends are in their last few days and taking a turboprop job back in Oz. One a 777 Capt and the other an A380 Capt. Now that is desperate stuff.
Something is very very wrong and it stinks to high heaven.:cool: Still better off to be home on Australian soil, where the family is safe, rather then in the sandpit, where businessmen and Journos have a habit of disappearing, for paltry reasons. You might be broke, but at least you are free, and if it means going back to the bottom of the woodpile, so be it. Us 89ers survived it, so will you blokes.

[ratpoison]

Yes and Sheik Makmuppet's additional political bribes, vice, human rights abuse, the weekly killings of third world slaves off partially built highrises and....and....where on earth does one stop. :{:eek:
Oh standby......
Bill Clinton Got Money From Big Sharia Law Education Firm | The Daily Caller (http://dailycaller.com/2016/08/03/exclusive-bill-clinton-got-millions-from-worlds-biggest-sharia-law-education-firm/)

[donpizmeov]

Some of these posts prove why brothers and sisters shouldn't mate.

[halas]

Aymen!

halas

[PukinDog]

"Green space" in Dubai = a dab of lipstick on a pig.

[Trevor the lover]

Hey Don - I thought Kev the Rev and his brother Fish both proved that one years ago!!!:O

[Al E. Vator]

Back to the FO. Very important he's taken care of.
In Dubai, an Emirati can run a red light and crash into a foreigner and be cleared of all wrongdoing.
The same can and potentially will happen in this instance. Emirati Captain and foreign FO. I can just see them sprouting something like 'The FO failed to ..... thus the Captain tried valiantly but was unable to save the aircraft'. I sincerely hope that this isn't the case but if you look at situations such as the Sunland executives detained what was indefinitely, I have grave concerns about the independence and fairness of what may eventuate in this instance.

Of course perhaps the Captain did try valiantly, I wont hypothesise about the cause of the crash but I am concerned that justice will not be fair.

[outside limits]

He and his family should'nt even be there. Should of banged out of there within 24 hrs.

[xhamster]

He and his family should'nt even be there. Should of banged out of there within 24 hrs.

You really think the UAE government authorities would allow him to just 'bang out of there' within 24 hours after the accident???

[parabellum]

Agreed 100% xhamster. As soon as his name was known he would have been on a 'Stop' list UAE wide. Attempting to leave would have been taken as a tacit admission of culpability. I suspect he will quietly go back to QANTAS.

[jibba_jabba]

Best thing for the FO to do is stay there.
It is highly unlikely that they will "jail" him at all, considering the worldwide attention the incident got.

So it would fan the flames (pardon the pun) for EK for them to display unjust treatment to staff! They have enough trouble hiring people let alone for that to be an issue!

[megan]

Not good if true, but to be expected I guess given the UAE. Plenty of previous. Scratch another airline from the list of acceptable carriers.

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/582445-emirates-b777-gear-collapse-dxb-28.html#post9465705

[Willie Nelson]

There is certainly lot of people back here in Oz concerned for his welfare and state of mind regardless of the outcome of the investigation or actions of local authorities.

We all wish you well JW, take care, keep your chin up and don't let any of the bastards get you down.

This too will pass.

[Icarus2001]

They have enough trouble hiring people let alone for that to be an issue!

Do you have any evidence of this? I see that they are recruiting heavily as their ads pop up all over "my" internet browsing.

I know two people who started recently and their assessment days had over twenty people being considered for employment. Not sure how many got through.

[Al E. Vator]

He is probably fortunate in that he is a QF staff-member and any unfair targeting of him would/should put the QF/EK alliance under stress (if QF has any cojones).

So if they try to blame it on the FO they are thus effectively saying QF pilots are no good and QF should counter this.

Will be interesting to watch the blame-appropriation but again I hope the FO is looked-after by people outside of the EK system where his well-being is, I suspect not paramount.

[73to91]

off topic and I do apoligise

the QF/EK alliance under stress

Qantas-Emirates Alliance Turning Sour? (http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/qantas-emirates-unhappy-marriage/)

[flydive1]

You really think the UAE government authorities would allow him to just 'bang out of there' within 24 hours after the accident???

Would the US or any other country?

[Progress Wanchai]

Only every civilized country on the planet unless charges have been laid.

It's a terrible indication of how far we have let this profession and industry fall when supposedly professional pilots believe it's acceptable for crew members to be illegally incarcerated or their freedom otherwise restrained.

[flydive1]

So, they would not expect to interview you in the next couple of days? Or they would do taht by phone or email?

[Square Bear]

It's a terrible indication of how far we have let this profession and industry fall .......

I don't attribute blame, knowledge, nor wish to be involved in discussion, nor speculate re the incident.....But (to paraphrase a previous poster) "it would seem a terrible indication of how far we have let this profession and industry fall if we think it OK that a person that has been part of a terrible sequence of events that led to the unfortunate death of a human to simply be able to pack up and leave when due process such as a coronial enquiry must take place."

As a general comment, "Responsibly" is part of the job description....to cut and run is not.

It is a very relevant (and on occasions terrifying) fact that working in countries other than ones own is fraught with issues such as this!!

And that problem is not confined to just the Sandpit.

I wish all the crew a just and expeditious outcome.

[Hempy]

Ask the ATSB how long the crew was in Australia after the ML 'long take-off'..

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/Scrape.jpg

[Square Bear]

Hempy

There was no death attributed to that incident/accident..a little different don't you think!

[IsDon]

I agree with your sentiments SB , in principal, but in DXB I'd be getting out of there as soon as I could.

If it were a civilised country with a fair and just court system then I would have no problem with your position.

DXB is not!

Expat=scapegoat, especially if Emirati are involved. I wouldn't be hanging around to wear the blame for something I'm not at fault for.

[Hempy]

Square Bear. The fact that no one died is irrelevant, they came within seconds of killing everyone on board, and had pure luck on their side that it was 16 departure and not a 34. They barely cleared the boundary fence sloping downhill..

Still, Emirates had both pilots out of the country within 24 hours so they wouldn't have to speak to investigators..

Double standards.

[IsDon]

When the CEO of Emirates is also the head of the Air Safety Regulator, what's the chance of a fair investigation?

[thorn bird]

With the incestuous relationship between the ATSB and CAsA, what chance of a fair investigation in Australia?

[maggot]

Ummmmm....

[ratpoison]

With the incestuous relationship between the ATSB and CAsA, what chance of a fair investigation in Australia?
Add two more to that. High level Govt corruption and kick backs from the money spinning corporate world of particular aviation operators.
Exactly what went on with the A340 incident. Crew specifically and consistently stated they were all chronically fatigued. Apparently a specific "safety bureau" ignored such statements and no mention of it whatsoever as being the contributing factor.
That's because weeeez got a multi, multi million dollar horse race to be sponsored now folks plus other under the table business dealings with a wink wink. ;):mad:

[fo4ever]

Square Bear. The fact that no one died is irrelevant, they came within seconds of killing everyone on board, and had pure luck on their side that it was 16 departure and not a 34. They barely cleared the boundary fence sloping downhill..

Still, Emirates had both pilots out of the country within 24 hours so they wouldn't have to speak to investigators..

Double standards.

24 hours and bla bla bla...

ALL WRONG!

[donpizmeov]

Hempy,
Plus one on the crew being in oz for more than 24hrs. Its been a while but I do remember being in contact with Capt sometime after the event while he was still in MEL chatting to those nice investigator types.
Any chance we can cut down on the hysteria as this poor fellas family could be reading this and they don't need to be scared by others paranoia.

[Exit Strategy]

Rat, good point. I emailed the ATSB (twice) to offer some additional information that was highly relevant to the circumstances surrounding the 340 accident (fatigue being one point but several other things that were part of the Swiss cheese). They did not even reply. Incompetent, arrogant, externally influenced, who knows...

[3 Holer]

Any chance we can cut down on the hysteria as this poor fellas family could be reading this and they don't need to be scared by others paranoia. That has to be the best statement on this whole thread. With the emphasis on paranoia.

[maligno]

1.- anybody knows why Captain Ibrahim Alseouni had only OVER 7000 hrs?
Being staff number 202xxx, how is that possible?
I estimate not less than 17 years in EK.

Another UAE prominent family Golden Boy?

2.- EK Media centre

http://www.emirates.com/media-centre/emirates-flight-ek521-was-involved-in-an-operational-incident-upon-landing-on-3rd-august-2016#

OPERATIONAL INCIDENT??? Aircraft crashed and burnt and it is an OPERATIONAL INCIDENT???

get out of there guys, you might be the next one...and you do not know it, because fatigue don't let you think about it...

[Al E. Vator]

3 Holer - with all due respect, given the politics of many of those countries and airlines, it is absolutely not paranoia.

However the good news is, after discussion with a bunch of colleagues at (or once at) EK, they believe the airline is sufficiently global and enough managerial and admin posts filled by capable westerners that it would be pretty unlikely that too much covering-up occurs.

Certainly they don't assign such benevolence to two very proximate neighbouring carriers but they believe Emirates to be reputable and given the constitution of it's workforce, unlikely to go too astray in this case. Perhaps wishful thinking but hopefully it eventuates this way.

[3 Holer]

Al E. Vator
..........given the politics of many of those countries and airlines, it is absolutely not paranoia.
Rubbish.
...........the airline is sufficiently global and enough managerial and admin posts filled by capable westerners that it would be pretty unlikely that too much covering-up occurs. Fact.
..........Emirates to be reputable and given the constitution of it's workforce, unlikely to go too astray in this case. Fact.
Perhaps wishful thinking but hopefully it eventuates this way.
Paranoia.

[donpizmeov]

What a nice fella you are Maligno grassing out an ex colleague. Your numbers are wrong by about three years. 777 FOs weren't working hard until recently so a bit over 7000hrs would be about right after you consider pre flying training at Parafield, Jet orientation course, the ATPL course, then Cadet training is all included? Did he start on the 310 and move across to the Boeing?
I hope when you make the headlines others show greater courtesy than you.

[Al E. Vator]

3 Holer - statements such as "rubbish" don't assess reality.

Have a browse through some of these articles widely available online - just to refresh your memory. Maybe they're from paranoid journalists? I make no claim as to their accuracy, just that they raise concerning issues.

Treatment of Staff:
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/the-truth-about-the-luxury-of-qatar-

The Dark Side of Dubai:
V. The Dunkin' Donuts Dissidents
The dark side of Dubai (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)

UAE detention of foreigners:
An Australian nightmare in Dubai - Background Briefing - ABC Radio National (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/backgroundbriefing/2014-01-19/5158690)

The point is that it needs to be assured that fairness and due process is undertaken in any investigation of the 777 crash, particularly for the FO. The Sunland executives would choke at your dismissive 'paranoia' comment.

Hopefully it eventuates that Emirates will ensure fairness and there is every reason to assume that as a reputable carrier this will happen. I know some great guys there so hopefully all will be fine. How on earth though, in light of the above articles, could that thought classed as paranoia?

For the FO's wellbeing, could it be suggested that the sooner a big campaign is mounted on his behalf, the better; just on the off chance that things may go awry at some stage?

[3 Holer]

Al E. Vator

How on earth though, in light of the above articles, could that thought classed as paranoia?
You have answered your own question when you state :
I make no claim as to their [B]accuracy, ............

Confused, hysterical perception of a situation without considering the factual accuracy of that situation, result in paranoia.

At this stage, it would be more beneficial to JW's friends and family to, focus only on the 777 incident and the facts surrounding that incident.

[Watchdog]

Al E. Vator

You have answered your own question when you state :


Confused, hysterical perception of a situation without considering the factual accuracy of that situation, result in paranoia.

At this stage, it would be more beneficial to JW's friends and family to, focus only on the 777 incident and the facts surrounding that incident.

"INCIDENT" - you must be kidding

[wheels_down]

Any news on the crews status?

Crew were terminated with 72 hrs after the Melbourne accident seems a little different now...

[fatbus]

Were they not re instated ? Later to be asked to leave to insure provident fund was received .

[Wizofoz]

1.- anybody knows why Captain Ibrahim Alseouni had only OVER 7000 hrs?
Being staff number 202xxx, how is that possible?
I estimate not less than 17 years in EK.


Just conjecture on my part, but he may have been employed in some other capacity before becoming g a cadet. The Cadet scheme is then about four years and they graduate as line FOs with around 800 hrs.


Crew were terminated with 72 hrs after the Melbourne accident seems a little different now...



Were they not re instated ? Later to be asked to leave to insure provident fund was received

AFAIR they were never terminated as such, but it was made clear to them that it was in their best interest to leave.

I think what's different now is one, someone died and two, the Captain was a local.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

Here it is

https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublication/admin/iradmin/Lists/Incidents%20Investigation%20Reports/Attachments/90/2016-2016%20-%20Preliminary%20Report,%20AAIS%20Case%20AIFN-0008-2016%20-%20A6-EMW.pdf

The lack of availability of slides - very scary.

Push the thrust levers up on a go around.

[witwiw]

Pretty detailed for a preliminary report - and it took how long to publish?

CASA/ATSB take note.

[thorn bird]

"Pretty detailed for a preliminary report - and it took how long to publish."

Startling, we would still be waiting in a year or two's time if the event had have been in Australia.

The thing that stands out to me is how well the cabin crew performed in very trying circumstances. Multiple failures of equipment, non compliant passengers, smoke and fire, all the things there's no way you could possibly train for.
Yet they did their job in a cool professional manner.
I hope they all get the recognition they deserve.
The only blight on the whole event was the unfortunate death of the fire fighter, heart breaking.

[Goat Whisperer]

Medals for the cabin crew!

[fo4ever]

It took the ATSB 40 days to come out with the preliminary report of the EK407 in 2009!

That is pretty much the same time as this one!

[IsDon]

It took the ATSB 40 days to come out with the preliminary report of the EK407 in 2009!

That is pretty much the same time as this one!

That's the time it should take.

In Australia it probably takes the same time to find the causes of most incidents. Then it takes another two years of political paper shuffling to ensure all arses are covered and nobody in the "establishment" can possibly have any blame attributed, deserved or not, before anything is released.

That's why it takes two years to release a report into two aeroplanes bumping into one another in a tarmac. There are so many "stakeholders" that have to sign off on the truth first.

[cooperplace]

to bring the thread back to where it started, is there any news re the Australian FO involved?

[reefrat]

Some nasty racist comments in this thread,, and some reasoned rebuttals as well, I worked over 30 years in the area and am disgusted with the prejudice displayed by some people, the thread was about the welfare of the FO , not about anonymous gutless racist comments,, GROW UP and act your age..

[Jetstarpilot]

Yeah.... Grow up!

Nothing to see here:mad:

[weloveseaplanes]

Dear Al E. Vator,

Thank you for the links about the reality of life in the Medieval dictatorship of Dubai for a wide cross section of humans denied their Universal Human Rights. Let us pray that the Universal Human Rights of the F/O are being defended.

Reading the well researched and wide ranging article

"The dark side of Dubai (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)"

was particular disturbing,
and to be honest,
heart wrenching.

[3 Holer]

Careful what content you believe in some articles written by the Independent tabloid. There have been some inaccuracies in the past that have resulted in lawsuits.

[Ken Borough]

Careful what content you believe in some articles written by the Independent tabloid. There have been some inaccuracies in the past that have resulted in lawsuits.

Yair, I know but this could be said about nearly every newspaper that's ever been published. Journos are not infallible. :ok:

[3 Holer]

You got my point exactly Ken. Don't believe everything you read in newspapers and take some commentary with a teaspoon of salt! :ok:

[Al E. Vator]

3 Holer - Mate, go talk with the Indians on construction sites and see if they share your rose-coloured views.
Have a chat with the Filipino and Indonesian house maids about their treatment. Talk to the executives previously mentioned who were imprisoned indefinitely. In fact, have a chat to any current pilots about fatigue and what happens if they complain. Talk to the training captains who objected to their conditions and how that was handled.
Nothing trumped-up about any of that no matter how you would like to dismiss it.:ugh:

[Ken Borough]

3 Holer,

There's too much adverse commentary about life and working in certain ME countries and the manner in which employees are treated and respected. While some comment may be exaggerated, there is simply too much of it to be ignored. The adage 'where there's smoke, there's fire' I think applies in this case.

[ramble on]

Dubai,

The only place in the world I have personally observed an airport security guard beat a downtrodden man in an airport queue with a baton - obviously a poor peasant labourer going home.

I was lucky enough to be in uniform and went straight for the officer in charge and with a bit of yelling tried to cause a bit of local shame as there was some international event happening in the place at the time.

There was no shame or compassion.

Very grateful for my circumstances and not this poor chaps.

[3 Holer]

Al - Mate, not sure what Indian construction workers, Filipino maids and executives (airline ?) have to do with this thread. Would like you to show me where I have "trumped up" facts surrounding this 777 incident or have been dismissive about any of them.

Ken, too much of what to be ignored?

ramble on, keep on rambling.:ok:

[weloveseaplanes]

Had a friend who worked over there.
He was involved in a traffic accident.
23 days in prison before he could be released . . .

The inside of a Dubai prison is not a pleasant place.

[Sunfish]

Advice from a friend to a young "edgy" relative transiting through Dubai: "Buy and take brand new luggage because if your old crappy bags have even the smell of marijuana let alone a tiny unusable fragment in them you will be in the slammer".

BBC NEWS | UK | Tourists warned of UAE drug laws (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7234786.stm)

British tourist Keith Brown was sentenced to four years in prison after Dubai customs officers found a 0.003g trace of cannabis stuck to his shoe"


Then of course there are the women jailed for reporting rape.

Dubai - the best reason not to fly through the middle east.

Sharia law - coming to a city near you.

Our advice to the agents of our family company years ago operating in various third world countries was to always carry your passport and an open dated air ticket to some place like Singapore. In the event of a traffic accident or any other unpleasantness LEAVE IMMEDIATELY, do not even return home to feed the dog.

Reefrat:

Some nasty racist comments in this thread,, and some reasoned rebuttals as well, I worked over 30 years in the area and am disgusted with the prejudice displayed by some people, the thread was about the welfare of the FO , not about anonymous gutless racist comments,, GROW UP and act your age..

The problem we are referring to is the Racism of the UAE - which exists according to voluminous evidence, and is therefore a fit subject of discussion. THE FO involved, in my opinion, is going to need the good graces of the Australian Government if he is to see the light of day again, let alone pilot an aircraft. By definition, if a Dubai local was the pilot flying, then it can't have been his fault.

[donpizmeov]

They hang people for drugs in Singas Sunfish. Any other good advice?

Can I also ask where you find this "definition" that it cant have been the UAE captain's fault?

The "in my opinion" that you use means "standby for Hysterical, paranoid BS."

[B772]

donpizmeov.

The inside word is "The F/O was partly to blame for the accident as he did not provide sufficient support to the Captain".

[donpizmeov]

Inside word from where?

The only official word is the preliminary report. Have you read it?

I am pretty sure the 777 is not a single pilot aircraft. There is a big difference between partly to blame, and as Sunfish puts it " by definition it can't be the locals fault".

[B772]

Donpizmeov

I have read the 21 page Preliminary Report dated 5 SEP 2016. I presume you would be aware the report is not designed to apportion blame or liability. There is also reference to the Final Report having further information regarding the go-around procedure and an in-depth analysis of human factors.

The internal EK report will have some differences similar to the A340-500 A6-ERG accident report by the ATSB.

[donpizmeov]

The ERG crew were out of the company by now. Not so with this crew. Until you have some facts, how about not spreading rumours.

[Jetstarpilot]

Until you have some facts, how about not spreading rumours.

Yeah:mad:

Anyone visiting here would think this is a RUMOUR network or something....

Grow up:mad:

[UnderneathTheRadar]

The ERG crew were out of the company by now. Not so with this crew.

They were both expats. If this crew had both been expats would the situation be the same?

[donpizmeov]

Under the radar,

And how could anyone answer that without it happening? If you think someone will get special treatment after an accident here due to nationality, you are mistaken. I say that having observed the treatment after lesser events. Are things different now from when the 340 scrubbed its bottom, yes they are. Luckily, things have calmed significantly since then. By no means are they perfect, but they have moved in the right direction.

This crew is no doubt reliving those last 30secs over and over. Posting ****e here is not helping them or their families.

[josephfeatherweight]

If you think someone will get special treatment after an accident here due to nationality, you are mistaken.
I would suggest, from my personal experience in the ME, that you are being a bit naive, which is surprising given that it appears you are there too! I don't think many would agree with your assertion that special treatment, in the event of an accident, is not accorded on the grounds of nationality. That's not to pre-suppose what will happen in this case, but the history is there!

[donpizmeov]

It looks very much like you are pre-supposing. Have you any recent cases that support this? I have seen many recent ones that don't.

[josephfeatherweight]

Well, certainly in this case, I hope you're right!