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View Full Version : Barking EU rules - perhaps we can lose some of them


rans6andrew
4th Aug 2016, 15:05
Last September we bought a "new" kettle, the lid on the previous one didn't stay latched down, sometimes. This resulted in there being insufficient pressure build up when it boiled to force the steam to enter the auto switch off mechanism and caused a kitchen sauna. The "new" kettle developed exactly the opposite problem, the mechanism that secures the lid got clogged up with the chalk from the water and it became difficult to open it. Being not quite 11 months into the 1 year warranty my partner took it back and found that it was now a discontinued model. The reason it became discontinued is that it was 2.8/3.0 KW. Apparently, you are not allowed to have domestic appliances that powerful any more.

The shop were very good about it though, they refunded the cost of the kettle and then allowed my partner to choose another, similar one. The one she ended up bringing home is only 2.2KW and takes noticeably longer to boil the same volume of water and thus wastes more energy as it does so. Bl**dy idiot bureaucrats. At least we have a new proof of purchase and thus a full year warranty on the new new kettle.

Perhaps I should make a Jettle? See Colin Furze on YouToob if you aren't familiar with these.

Art E. Fischler-Reisen
4th Aug 2016, 15:13
My "EU regulation" toaster allows bread to go stale before it goes brown!

Ancient Mariner
4th Aug 2016, 15:44
takes noticeably longer to boil the same volume of water and thus wastes more energy as it does so.

You're sure about that? It doesn't just take longer?
Per

VP959
4th Aug 2016, 15:47
Bringing in regulations to limit the power of heating devices, as a supposed "energy saving" measure is so incredibly stupid that you have to wonder at the mentality of the rule makers. It's obvious to even a child beginning to study physics that the energy consumption will be greater, as a consequence of the increased heat losses due to the longer operating time, so why on earth did a bunch of complete idiots in the EU come up with this?

Having sat on a couple of EU regulatory working groups years ago, I can sort of see how it may have happened. It's rare to have anyone with any technical competence in these groups, but there is a very powerful industrial lobby. In this case I can easily see the hand of the energy companies at work. They may well have convinced the idiot rule makers that a low power kettle (or toaster) was a "good idea", knowing full well that such a regulation would mean they would sell more energy......................

Mariner9
4th Aug 2016, 15:47
It will lose more heat by conduction and radiation in a slower boil, so will consume more energy IMHO.

Edit VP got there first.

WRT to the point of the legislation, it will lower (in theory) power demand on grid.

VP959
4th Aug 2016, 15:50
You're sure about that? It doesn't just take longer?
Per
It wastes more energy. The energy into a kettle has to heat the water to boiling point and also overcome the losses from the kettle casing and from evaporative cooling loss from the surface of the water. The longer it takes to heat the kettle to boiling point, the greater the heat losses and the greater the overall energy consumption.

If you want a super-efficient kettle insulate the case, limit the evaporative loss with a close fitting lid and fit the most powerful element you can, so that it heats as quickly as possible.

VP959
4th Aug 2016, 15:56
It will lose more heat by conduction and radiation in a slower boil, so will consume more energy IMHO.

Edit VP got there first.

WRT to the point of the legislation, it will lower (in theory) power demand on grid.
It will theoretically make a very, very tiny reduction to the peak demand, only at peak load times. Years ago this used to be the advert breaks when we only had one or two commercial TV channels, when people went to make a cup of tea or coffee. Now that advert breaks aren't synchronised well between channels, and lots of people watch on-demand TV, this type of peak has flattened out, so arguably there isn't even a peak demand smoothing benefit, just an overall increase in energy use.

The same goes for low power vacuum cleaners (another EU regulation) that just take longer to do the same job, or low power toasters, or any of the other weird and wonderfully stupid regulations these idiots think up.

Mariner9
4th Aug 2016, 15:58
I thought I read somewhere that the EC were postponing the toaster law until after the Brexit vote so as not to upset us toast-loving Brits. Is it now law?

NutLoose
4th Aug 2016, 15:58
Surely this makes the case for drinking more alcohol, after all fish wee, poo, and have sex in water...... and as for alcohol containing water...Pzzzzz.. after enough, I don't care.

:cool:

G-CPTN
4th Aug 2016, 16:05
My aunty asked my uncle to shorten the flex of her electric kettle so that it would boil faster.

The astonishing thing is that my uncle actually did shorten the flex - but he was henpecked - "Yes, dear, whatever you want . . . "

PDR1
4th Aug 2016, 16:19
The idea is that by making the boiling process slower people are encouraged to only boil the water the actually need. At present a large number of people fill the kettle every time the use it, and mitigate the resulting slow boiling time by driving it with the entire output of Sizewell B.

Boiling enough for 2 cups of coffee takes only a few seconds longer in a 2kW kettle than it does in a 3kW one; and it is substantially quicker than boiling a full 2 litre kettle. Assume 350ml cups and proper (black) coffee so there's no allowance for adulteration with cow-juice (eeow!!), so the total water boiled is only 750-800mls, consuming barely more than 40% of the energy required to boil the 2-litre kettle.

Of course the dinosaur-brigade won't get this, because they will be too busy harrumphing about their absolute human right to be energy-wasting morons. Sad really - some of them aren't *that* stupid. A few are doing really well in their shoelace-tying classes and intermediate potty-training...

PDR

Fareastdriver
4th Aug 2016, 16:24
I suppose you measure the amount of water you put in before you boil it.

vulcanised
4th Aug 2016, 16:26
I noticed the effect of this stupid legislation recently when I had to buy a new washing machine.

The load that used to take around 90 minutes now takes close on 2 hours.
.

VP959
4th Aug 2016, 16:35
The idea is that by making the boiling process slower people are encouraged to only boil the water the actually need. At present a large number of people fill the kettle every time the use it, and mitigate the resulting slow boiling time by driving it with the entire output of Sizewell B.

Boiling enough for 2 cups of coffee takes only a few seconds longer in a 2kW kettle than it does in a 3kW one; and it is substantially quicker than boiling a full 2 litre kettle. Assume 350ml cups and proper (black) coffee so there's no allowance for adulteration with cow-juice (eeow!!), so the total water boiled is only 750-800mls, consuming barely more than 40% of the energy required to boil the 2-litre kettle.

Of course the dinosaur-brigade won't get this, because they will be too busy harrumphing about their absolute human right to be energy-wasting morons. Sad really - some of them aren't *that* stupid. A few are doing really well in their shoelace-tying classes and intermediate potty-training...

PDR
The problem is that this is an incredibly stupid way to try and change behaviour to achieve their supposed aim.

If they had thought about it properly, then just making a regulation that all kettles should be insulated and have a good fitting lid, with the smallest vent size that would be safe, would have a far greater impact.

I doubt that most users will measure out water into a kettle, anyway, and those that already do, in order to save energy, will just get annoyed by a regulation that causes them to use more energy.

Thankfully we have a boiling water tap, so never have to worry about kettle boiling time; water at just over boiling point is always available from the well-insulated pressure tank heater. What's more, when I checked it's energy use, it was more economical than boiling a kettle. 99% of the saving almost certainly comes from the very well insulated boiling water tank under the kitchen unit, plus the fact that hot water wastage from the thing is tiny.

I also like being able to have a cup of tea without waiting for a kettle to boil................

DType
4th Aug 2016, 16:40
If you are as impatient as I am, you always measure the amount of water in the kettle (it has a graduated window to assist this economy of both energy and time)

llondel
4th Aug 2016, 16:45
I'm stuck with a US kettle, so only 1.5kW and it takes noticeably longer to boil than a decent 3kW kettle. I only fill it to boil what I need, too, but as I make tea in a pint mug that's still a reasonable amount of water.

Krystal n chips
4th Aug 2016, 17:00
You do seem to be somewhat blighted by technology....

However, to save you further angst and expenditure....

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/aug/23/how-to-remove-limescale

Just out of interest, what happened to the saga of the dog that barked, allegedly, from 09.30 onwards, the one you were unable to, erm, record actually barking......just staying on the theme of your unfortunate encounters with technology you understand.

ExXB
4th Aug 2016, 17:14
So you would prefer the manufacturers having to make 27 different versions of your kettle to meet each countries own standards.

Now that would be efficient. :rolleyes:

PDR1
4th Aug 2016, 17:34
I'm stuck with a US kettle, so only 1.5kW and it takes noticeably longer to boil than a decent 3kW kettle. I only fill it to boil what I need.

QED

PDR

Fareastdriver
4th Aug 2016, 17:49
However, to save you further angst and expenditure....

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...move-limescale

What has that to do with the wattage of kettles?

G-CPTN
4th Aug 2016, 17:56
However, to save you further angst and expenditure....

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...move-limescale

What has that to do with the wattage of kettles?
The "new" kettle developed exactly the opposite problem, the mechanism that secures the lid got clogged up with the chalk from the water and it became difficult to open it.

. . . . . .

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Aug 2016, 18:58
The load that used to take around 90 minutes now takes close on 2 hours..
I wouldn't care in the slightest - I put the machine on when I go to bed, and whether it takes 90 minutes or 16 hours it's still finished when I get home from work the next day.

engineer(retard)
4th Aug 2016, 19:18
Try it if you are a working family with kids

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Aug 2016, 19:48
Try it if you are a working family with kids
I did, for many years. If it was really necessary to do two loads a day - fourteen a week! - the other one went in in the morning, as I was going out to work.

engineer(retard)
4th Aug 2016, 19:50
When did they dry?

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Aug 2016, 20:51
When did they dry?
Not sure what that's got to do with the power consumption of the washing machine? Anyway, to answer your question, "all the time" - we had drying racks in the kitchen and hallway, and used the washing line if it ever stopped raining.

Fairdealfrank
4th Aug 2016, 21:19
EU interference in the minutiae of every day life undoubtly pisses many people off big time, and could have motivated many to vote leave.

Of course the media and the campaigns concentrated on sovereignty, self-governance, corruption, the inability of the EU to have its books audited, the misuse of our financial contributions, the economy, trade, bad decisions from overseas courts, free movement, illegal immigration, etc.etc., and competely missed out on the fact that to low-level irritations can produce a hostility to the status quo and be a motivating factor in wanting to upset it.

Maybe this why the politicians and the pollsters completely misread the situation?

er340790
4th Aug 2016, 21:23
It wastes more energy. The energy into a kettle has to heat the water to boiling point and also overcome the losses from the kettle casing and from evaporative cooling loss from the surface of the water. The longer it takes to heat the kettle to boiling point, the greater the heat losses and the greater the overall energy consumption.

So why can't we all buy 100GigaWatt kettles and flash-boil water in 0.5 seconds??? :8

See - a watched kettle does boil!!! ;)

Gertrude the Wombat
4th Aug 2016, 22:22
So why can't we all buy 100GigaWatt kettles and flash-boil water in 0.5 seconds??? :8
I tried putting lots too much current down a wire a couple of times when I was a little boy. Once was molten copper all over my bedroom (I didn't get any in my face as I'd had the sense, at least, to be hiding behind some furniture when I switched it on), and the other time was molten copper all over the school physics lab (where, to be honest, probably nobody noticed the extra).

radeng
4th Aug 2016, 23:23
Radio Equipment Directive - devices with radio transmitters MUST be CE marked

Active Medical Implant Devices - devices must NOT be CE marked until clinical trials are complete.

Medical implants with radio transmitters in them will fail one or the other Directive......

The Commission response (at least initially) was 'Duh!'

ExSp33db1rd
5th Aug 2016, 00:18
Fareastdriver


I suppose you measure the amount of water you put in before you boil it.


Water jug with visible scale - yes.

Whistling kettle ... Place under tap, lift lever to full flow for 3 secs. Stop. That fills my morning tea mug when boiled.

Not rocket science.

Sue VÍtements
5th Aug 2016, 02:09
Not as bad as the rule that says you cannot beat or shake any carpet, rug or mat in any street in the Metropolitan Police District (not including doormats if before 8am). Oh wait; that's a good old British rule

Maybe we should all have a vote and leave Britain as well!


sorry, not a vote, merely a referendum

VP959
5th Aug 2016, 08:33
The difference is that the EU regulations (many are now also are UK law) are relatively new and are actively imposed.

The very old law you refer to is not ever enforced (AFAIK) and is one of many very old laws that aren't used that are under review, I believe, with a view to taking them off the Statute Book altogether.

There are no indications so far that any of the really stupid EU regulations are even under review, let alone likely to be removed in the near future.

PDR1
5th Aug 2016, 09:17
Indeed. It's high time we got rid of those stupid protectionist European rules like having to do training and pass exams to to simple jobs like driving aerial buses. Three weeks of OJT should be more than sufficient.

PDR

wiggy
5th Aug 2016, 09:18
There are no indications so far that any of the really stupid EU regulations are even under review, let alone likely to be removed in the near future.

It does happen, especially if there's vested interests involved.... it just that the changes generally don't make the popular press..

For example there's the rules on pesticides, a niche topic perhaps, but very important if you're a gardener/farmer/bee keeper......


https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jan/07/eu-scientists-begin-review-ban-pesticides-linked-bee-declines

VP959
5th Aug 2016, 09:34
Indeed. It's high time we got rid of those stupid protectionist European rules like having to do training and pass exams to to simple jobs like driving aerial buses. Three weeks of OJT should be more than sufficient.

PDR
I've not heard anyone say that EU regs were protectionist in this thread.

We had perfectly good flying training before the EU intervened, in fact I still have an old lifetime CAA issued licence.

I did find the letter, a consequence of EASA intervention, telling me that I had to prove I could speak English damned annoying, as a perfunctory check would show that to get my licence in the first place I had to use English adequately to pass the RT part of the syllabus.

The issue with many EU regulations isn't that they are all stupid (although quite a lot of them clearly are) but often that they are applied with a rigour that is not justified, plus there seems to be a complete absence of common sense about many of them.

Metro man
5th Aug 2016, 09:40
Don't forget vacuum cleaners which are also going to be limited watts as well.

oldchina
5th Aug 2016, 09:40
And there's the stupid rule that now prevents the import or sale of vacuum cleaners rated higher than 1600W. Even my granny (the one who could calculate pounds shillings and pence in her head) knew that if the cleaner was too weak she had to go over the carpet twice.
James Dyson said that wasn't the reason for him being a Brexit campaigner. Must have had other problems with the sprouts.

Sorry Metro you beat me by seconds.

B Fraser
5th Aug 2016, 10:58
Now that we are going to "Brexit", the light at the end of the tunnel can be replaced by a 100 watt bulb.

Metro man
5th Aug 2016, 12:13
An INCANDESCENT 100 watt bulb.

PDR1
5th Aug 2016, 12:34
I've not heard anyone say that EU regs were protectionist in this thread.

We had perfectly good flying training before the EU intervened, in fact I still have an old lifetime CAA issued licence.


Indeed, and that's the point. If you actually go and survey there "stupid EU regulations" [which I have done, because as as an engineer I have to] you find that the massive majority of them are either regulations which we already had but have moved up to an EU level for standardisation, regulations we would want to have anyway [because they are sensible or they implement international treaty obligations] but have implemented at an EU level for standardisation, or regulations to standardise disparate national regulations to make things easier for everyone.

Now I appreciate that some of the more arrogant pilots don't accept that last one, but imagine a world in which pilots had to have separate licenses for every country they flew from, into or over. Where each license had different tests, experience requirements, currency and renewal requirements. Imagine that not only did you need to take 15 different PPL/CPL/IR/Multi/ATPL and Type Rating courses and exams just to steer aerial buses around europe, but you also found that the hours you'd done in (say) UK airspace didn't count towards your (say) German CPL currency.

This is the world engineering and manufacturing are in without the EU.

To the subjects cited in this thread - kettles and vacuum cleaners. These come into the second category (regulations we would want to have anyway [because they are sensible or they implement international treaty obligations] but have implemented at an EU level for standardisation) because they became essential as soon as our various governments signed up to climate-change treaties (in the case of the vacuum cleaners) and because we need to spread the power (not energy) demand on the UK electrical supply system because we are running ever closer to the peak capacity of our diminishing power generation capability.

When you hear blowhards banging on about the "EU Regulations" it's an interesting exercise to challenge them to name the regulations they would remove. The regulations broadly come into three categories - those we have to make us safe (like the ones that say mains cables must have insulation), those that stop us being ripped off (like the ones we've added to stop the banks doing another 2007) and the ones that implement international agreements. All of these we'd have anyway...

PDR

Sallyann1234
5th Aug 2016, 12:37
An INCANDESCENT 100 watt bulb.
or a 12 watt LED.

PDR1
5th Aug 2016, 12:39
Or a handy 10w laser pointer

PDR

radeng
5th Aug 2016, 12:44
Some of the more useful EU regulations are a waste of time because they aren't enforced - and that's because there isn't the money to do enforcement - anywhere. Especially the EMC regulations.........and where manufacturers or importers can self certify, even bothering to have the regulations in the first place is just a way of keeping some overpaid civil servants in Brussels in their useless jobs.

VP959
5th Aug 2016, 13:09
PDR1,

I was intimately involved in regulation of stuff, both pre and post the implementation of EU wide regulations.

Whilst what you say is very broadly right, the devil is in the detail, and the EU loves detail. The biggest single change in the stuff I worked with was that before the EU intervened regulation was often primarily based on a sound safety need. When I was sitting on EU technical committees, it was very clear that the primary basis for much of the regulation was to keep industry happy. That meant diluting safety at times, and led to me changing jobs, as I couldn't stomach the way the EU put commercial interests ahead of safety, or the fact that many of the technical committees were staffed by incompetents. I now think I understand the latter issue; it's because anyone with any competence leaves.

I fully understand that harmonisation, needed to make a federal Europe work, needs compromise, but not if that compromise waters-down good safety regulation. Good safety regulation, IMHO, is that which balances the safety need with ease of compliance. Make the rules too complex or difficult to comply with and people will break them, leading to lower overall levels of compliance and greater risk.

A good aviation example is the high cost to budget GA of work having to be done by a Part M approved organisation. The costs of this are high, and so some one-man-band CAA licensed engineers just ended up out of work. I know a fair few farm strip flyers locally, and most of them used to use the services of a local engineer for maintenance they couldn't do themselves. I know of one small group that now fly illegally. They do their own maintenance and inspections and just stay "off the radar" as far as the CAA/EASA is concerned. As they only fly around locally, often from one farm strip to another, and as the CAA have insufficient staff to enforce the regulations, they just get away with it.

It's not right, and it may not be safe (although frankly I think they are probably no less safe than before part M came along). This is the sort of non-compliance that overly-complex or costly regulation creates.

If you want another example, then look at the high volume of false CE marking on imported goods, some of which are often downright dangerous. Complying with the need for LVD, EMC etc Directive approval is costly, and there are growing volumes of imported electrical equipment, in particular, that are dangerous as a consequence.

This isn't specifically an EU issue; any state, or group of states, that chooses to introduce complex and costly regulation, risks increasing the level of non-compliance, and so driving real safety risks up, rather than down.

To get back to the point, many low power electrical appliances are just misguided when it comes to the stated objective of saving energy. That's been demonstrated elsewhere in this thread, and it typifies the lack of technical competence within the rule making body. Specifically, they didn't have the wit to realise that a low power device may well just be run for a longer period of time, increasing overall energy consumption.

B Fraser
5th Aug 2016, 16:17
An INCANDESCENT 100 watt bulb.


It can be as angry as it likes.


If you want another example, then look at the high volume of false CE marking on imported goods, some of which are often downright dangerous.


Yep, CE = Chinese Export

Fareastdriver
5th Aug 2016, 18:11
Before WWII there was a Japanese town called Usa.

Made in USA.

llondel
5th Aug 2016, 19:21
Quote:
Originally Posted by llondel http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/582519-barking-eu-rules-perhaps-we-can-lose-some-them.html#post9462491)
I'm stuck with a US kettle, so only 1.5kW and it takes noticeably longer to boil than a decent 3kW kettle. I only fill it to boil what I need.

QED

PDR

Even in the UK with a decent kettle I would only boil what I needed.

In the mornings I make my wife wait for her coffee (she uses a press, not a perky-later) because she needs a lot more water and I point out that I have to go out to work so I ought to have mine first and that she'd be waiting just as long for hers anyway if I put on enough water for both.

llondel
5th Aug 2016, 20:03
Whistling kettle ... Place under tap, lift lever to full flow for 3 secs. Stop. That fills my morning tea mug when boiled.

That's how I do it too, except one tap it was seven seconds, another one was eight, and a third tap was ten. The seven-second fill kettle has moved premises so I need to check out the water pressure at the new one.

It's also how the ice-makers in fridge-freezers work, having dumped the ice cubes, the water gets turned on for a number of seconds, during which time enough water flows to fill the ice tray. There's usually an adjustment on the gadget to vary the time slightly in case you either get one big lump or lots of too-small ones.

Mad Monk
5th Aug 2016, 20:15
Kettles of 3kW are readily available in the EU, I bought one two weeks ago here in Brussels.
rans6andrew, your information is incorrect.
The vast majority of so called EU rules in the UK are solely at the instigation on HMG.

Fairdealfrank
5th Aug 2016, 21:42
There are no indications so far that any of the really stupid EU regulations are even under review, let alone likely to be removed in the near future.

Maybe not, but with brexit, we have the ability to do so should WE choose to.

Sue VÍtements
5th Aug 2016, 22:50
Interesting response and spot on I think where you say it's not so much EU rules as rules ... by any party.

I also think that by and large the people who complain the loudest would also be the people who complained the loudest were certain rules NOT in place and
the obvious consequences happened.

Wot No Engines
6th Aug 2016, 05:44
Use the microwave instead if you want to heat water quickly.

It's down to the power supply in different countries. Worst case in Europe os 220v and 10A rated outlets. This means a max of 2.2KW for any appliance. Whereas the UK is 240v and 13A which can supply over 3KW.

VP959
6th Aug 2016, 07:54
Use the microwave instead if you want to heat water quickly.

It's down to the power supply in different countries. Worst case in Europe os 220v and 10A rated outlets. This means a max of 2.2KW for any appliance. Whereas the UK is 240v and 13A which can supply over 3KW.
The EU is the same voltage and frequency as the UK, we "harmonised" with them years ago. Admittedly we cheated with the tolerance, but that's all.

The UK standard is 230 V AC, 50 Hz, the same as the EU. The difference is that the UK has a +10%, -5% voltage tolerance, so we can run at 240V AC and still be inside the standard.......................

As for the socket limit in the EU being 10A, that's not right either. It does still slightly vary from country to country but the CEE 7/4 ("Schuko") connectors used in most EU states are good for 16A.

In theory, the power limit from a standard 16A outlet at 230V AC across most of the EU is 3.68 kW and that from a nominal 240V supply to a UK BS1363 outlet would be 3.12 kW.

Harley Quinn
6th Aug 2016, 08:59
So why, in the interests of harmony, was there never a common euro plug and socket?

Fareastdriver
6th Aug 2016, 09:23
Cos the Brits have the fuse in the plug which means that only the faulty appliance comes off line. It also protects the wires that you can't see from being overloaded.
As far as I know nobody else does except Hong Kong.

VP959
6th Aug 2016, 09:24
So why, in the interests of harmony, was there never a common euro plug and socket?
The usual reasons - a few countries don't want the upheaval of change.

The "Schuko" is probably the most common outlet, and is used by the majority of EU states and some non-EU European states (France, Germany, Austria, Poland, Czech Republic, Russia, Serbia, Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland etc, etc) together with the lower current two pin (socket compatible) version for double insulated appliances.

It's only a few EU states that don't use the "Schuko" outlet AFAIK, ones that were not closely aligned to the current EU when it formed. The biggest country that uses a totally different outlet design is the UK, with its BS1363 fused plug, arguably one of the safest plug designs in the world (very few other plug designs have an internal fuse to protect the appliance cable, for example).

Sallyann1234
6th Aug 2016, 09:50
And of course it's not as simple as harmonising the connector. That is just part of the whole wiring system, where you have differences between ring and star circuits.

Returning to the original topic, it is interesting to see the dawning realisation that Brexit will not mean the abandonment of vast chunks of "EU red tape".

engineer(retard)
6th Aug 2016, 09:55
We already knew that Sallyann, the task is too large to accomplish in one fell swoop. We will have to adopt existing legislation wholesale and remove what we don't want or need at a leisurely pace.

VP959
6th Aug 2016, 10:04
Precisely.

We've resisted quite a few attempts to "harmonise" our standards, the BS1363 plug being a very good example - why on earth would the UK willingly adopt a less safe home power outlet connector? It was only a matter of time before the UK (and Ireland) would have been forced by the EU to get rid of the BS1363 connector, and adopt the CEE 7/4 one instead. Thank goodness we held off long enough to make it a non-issue now.

It will take time to disentangle ourselves from some EU standards, but some are sensible and are really just re-named British Standards. Clearly if we want to sell goods to the EU we have to make sure those goods comply with EU standards (which we're doing already, so no change), but we don't have to automatically accept daft regulations that have little of no impact on trade, like the kettle (and other appliances) power limit, if we don't want to.

My worry is that we may well have lost a great deal of the technical expertise that used to put together British Standards and the like, and it may well take a fair bit of time before common sense and a proper balance between safety, cost and ease of compliance can be restored.

Sallyann1234
6th Aug 2016, 10:52
My worry is that we may well have lost a great deal of the technical expertise that used to put together British Standards and the like ...Very true (with certain notable exceptions), and this is just one symptom of a much wider problem.
We invented nuclear power stations, but now we have to buy in the expertise from abroad.

funfly
6th Aug 2016, 21:30
Square bananas!

terrain safe
6th Aug 2016, 21:43
Lots of 3kW kettles for sale in Argos. Why don't people check before believing what's in the papers.

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 07:05
Because some of the "Ecodesign Directive" regs are still in the draft stage and have yet to be implemented. They were supposed to be implemented a year or so ago, but received a certain amount of criticism. The implementation was further delayed, some believe, because of the UK EU Referendum.

However, because of the long lead time for manufacturers, many manufacturers who have been aware of this impending change have already designed, and in some cases marketed, "Ecodesign Directive approved" kettles, toasters etc.

sitigeltfel
7th Aug 2016, 07:18
The quicker the whole EU project is boiled and toasted, the better. :E

419
7th Aug 2016, 08:52
Now that we are going to "Brexit", the light at the end of the tunnel can be replaced by a 100 watt bulb.

An INCANDESCENT 100 watt bulb.

There is no need to exit the EU just to be able to use 100w incandescent bulbs as you can still legally buy them in the UK.

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 09:19
There is no need to exit the EU just to be able to use 100w incandescent bulbs as you can still legally buy them in the UK.
Indeed.
"Rough Service" incandescent lamps have always been available, you just need to look for them. There is an exemption that allows incandescent lamps to be used for certain applications, the most common being inspection lights.

Places like Maplin, Amazon etc still sell them (like these: 100W Rough Service GLS Light Bulbs 10 Pack BC | Maplin (http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/100w-rough-service-gls-light-bulbs-10-pack-bc-a28kq)), they just aren't normally on the shelves of most stores as they are deemed to be a "specialist product". You can even get 150 W ones if you like: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/150w-rough-service-gls-bulbs-bc-pearl-rs-a30kq

defizr
7th Aug 2016, 16:19
Every kettle but one on this page is 3kW. Two of them are 3.1 kW

Kettles - Cheap Kettles Deals | Currys (http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/small-kitchen-appliances/kettles/336_3156_30244_xx_xx/xx-criteria.html?s=kettles)

Fairdealfrank
7th Aug 2016, 16:36
Every kettle but one on this page is 3kW. Two of them are 3.1 kW

Kettles - Cheap Kettles Deals | Currys (http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/small-kitchen-appliances/kettles/336_3156_30244_xx_xx/xx-criteria.html?s=kettles)

All with free delivery available.

radeng
7th Aug 2016, 16:38
I have yet to find a British 13 amp plug that doesn't get decidedly warm at a continuous 13 amps - unlike the old 15 amp 3 round pin plug. My understanding is that to save copper in post war house wiring, the ring main was introduced, rather than spurs. It allowed the advantages of diversity to be utilised - not every 13 amp socket will be loaded to 13 amps, but you have to allow for that with spurs. Because of the higher possible fault current on the ring, the plug needed fusing, which is why the fused plug. The weak point is always that the fuse clips tend not to have sufficient area to ensure the temperature stays down.

I seem to recall that modern practice is to go spurs as they do in most of the rest of the world.

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 16:45
Every kettle but one on this page is 3kW. Two of them are 3.1 kW

Kettles - Cheap Kettles Deals | Currys (http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/small-kitchen-appliances/kettles/336_3156_30244_xx_xx/xx-criteria.html?s=kettles)
As above, the part of the Ecodesign Directive covering kettles is still in draft. IIRC it's part of Work Package 3, Task 3, I believe, and although I've not got any official connections with that technical committee I can't yet find their draft report.

Industry will be well aware of the intent, though, as they will have played a part in defining it, so I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that some manufacturers are effectively jumping the gun making early design changes.

Given the critical comment that's arose when vacuum cleaners were reduced in power under this staged directive, and given that the issue of lower power kettles has been highlighted as not being an overall energy saving measure, it wouldn't surprise me to find that they are quietly "reviewing" this proposal. I do believe that the low power toaster one is being looked at with a view to just making multi-slot toasters have the capability to only heat the slot(s) in use. Some may already do this; it's years since I looked at buying a toaster (I prefer the grill.............).

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 16:46
I have yet to find a British 13 amp plug that doesn't get decidedly warm at a continuous 13 amps - unlike the old 15 amp 3 round pin plug. My understanding is that to save copper in post war house wiring, the ring main was introduced, rather than spurs. It allowed the advantages of diversity to be utilised - not every 13 amp socket will be loaded to 13 amps, but you have to allow for that with spurs. Because of the higher possible fault current on the ring, the plug needed fusing, which is why the fused plug. The weak point is always that the fuse clips tend not to have sufficient area to ensure the temperature stays down.

I seem to recall that modern practice is to go spurs as they do in most of the rest of the world.
A BS1363 plug is not rated for 13 A continuous current. The maximum rating has always been 10 A continuous, 13 A peak, as far as I know. Certainly that's the rating that applies for the current issue of the standard, and is the reason that UK plug-in electric car charge leads are limited to 10 A.

radeng
7th Aug 2016, 17:38
VP959

That I didn't know. Makes a mockery of being able to buy 3kW fan heaters then!

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 17:43
VP959

That I didn't know. Makes a mockery of being able to buy 3kW fan heaters then!
Yes, a 3kW continuous load would be outside the plug rating, I think the limit in BS1363 is something like 15 minutes at 13A, maximum (I could be wrong, I don't have a copy of the standard here to check).

Cazalet33
7th Aug 2016, 17:48
VP959 clearly knows of what he speaks on the matter of 13A sockets only being good for a draw of 10A.

Also, he got it right about the little domestic chargers for the likes of the Nissan Leaf and the Outlander. On the Tesla, a 13A(nominal) socket is a total pain the arse because the battery cooling/heating system takes a sizeable chunk of the available power. 2.3kW is like pissing on a fire through a firehose.

Avitor
7th Aug 2016, 17:53
Never mind the stupid EU....Just avoid placing anything on the flex to your implement, you will restrict the flow of electricity.

Fareastdriver
7th Aug 2016, 19:52
Just wrap kitchen foil around the fuse; it runs much cooler. The RCB under the stairs will throw if anything is wrong.

Just joking. They must be pretty safe. Just look at the number of countries that use the system.

http://www.iec.ch/worldplugs/typeG.htm

llondel
7th Aug 2016, 20:20
I do believe that the low power toaster one is being looked at with a view to just making multi-slot toasters have the capability to only heat the slot(s) in use.

OK, now that one is a sensible idea.

Gertrude the Wombat
7th Aug 2016, 20:24
Just wrap kitchen foil around the fuse; it runs much cooler....
... which reminds me of the kids who ran the lighting gallery in the school hall.


They claimed to have replaced some of the fuses by pieces of copper rod (nicked from the physics lab), because the fuses kept blowing and they didn't want that happening half way through the school play.

VP959
7th Aug 2016, 20:26
OK, now that one is a sensible idea.
I know that it's been put forward as a proposal by the working group, but I don't have any further info on whether, or when, it may be implemented.

BigEndBob
7th Aug 2016, 21:01
Why can't we have vacuum flask type kettles and hot water boilers in the home.
Why let water in radiators go cold only to warm the water up again, why can't it be pumped into a vacuum flask tank.

G-CPTN
7th Aug 2016, 21:28
... which reminds me of the kids who ran the lighting gallery in the school hall.


They claimed to have replaced some of the fuses by pieces of copper rod (nicked from the physics lab), because the fuses kept blowing and they didn't want that happening half way through the school play.
My school colleague and I were making a (cine) film (about school life).
The battens of photofloods kept blowing the fuse on the main board, so my mate (with more electrical 'knowledge' than me) decided to wire two plugs together (splicing the wires at the input to the batten) and plugging the plugs into different sockets (in different rooms) so that the load would be 'shared' between fuses on the main board.

It didn't work.

It seems that the two sockets were on different phases . . .

Sallyann1234
7th Aug 2016, 22:17
Why let water in radiators go cold only to warm the water up again, why can't it be pumped into a vacuum flask tank.

The hot water in a "radiator" (actually a convector not a radiator) gives up its heat to the surrounding air and therefore emerges much cooler. If the system with its thermostats is operating correctly there should not be any waste heat to store.

VP959
8th Aug 2016, 08:14
Why can't we have vacuum flask type kettles and hot water boilers in the home.
Why let water in radiators go cold only to warm the water up again, why can't it be pumped into a vacuum flask tank.
We can and I have. Our boiling water tap uses a vacuum flask with a small heater in it. It's slightly pressurised and keeps the water inside at around 105 deg C, so that when it comes out of the tap it's still at around boiling point.

The high insulation level, together with small bore (around 5 to 6mm IIRC) piping that reduces hot water wastage, is the main reason it uses less energy for us than a sensibly used kettle.

The problem is these things are not cheap and they need to be plumbed in. However, I remember seeing worktop vacuum flasks, with a similar heater, in the Far East a few years ago, used instead of kettles, so they may well be available.

Fareastdriver
8th Aug 2016, 09:30
I remember seeming worktop vacuum flasks

A standard kitchen or office fitting. As you say they are insulated and heat the water and then maintain the temperature. They just have a hinged lid on them so not being pressurised they can only keep the temperature below boiling, about 90 degrees.
They are OK for green tea and Lipton's tea bags which are quite small but no good for English stoompher.

funfly
14th Aug 2016, 09:37
Why not have the bathwater outlet directed to a sump rather than to the drain? The incoming water supply for any heating system could be routed through the sump to, in effect, be pre warmed thus reducing heating costs.
I personally like a deep hot bath but it does seem a waste when all the hot water is drained down the main drain when its heat could be utilised in pre heating the incoming water.
Do I get a prize for this energy saving idea?
FF

Sallyann1234
14th Aug 2016, 10:20
The most efficient way of re-using the heat from bathwater is to share it with someone else. :ok:

Tankertrashnav
14th Aug 2016, 10:31
Yes, but why does the bloke always get stuck with the tap/plug end? :*

Fareastdriver
14th Aug 2016, 10:35
when its heat could be utilised in pre heating the incoming water

Won't work, I'm afraid. Central heating systems recirculate the water continuously during the heating mode. This means that the water going into the heater is nearly as hot as the water going out. Put a sump with used bathwater in will cause the heater to work harder and the net result would be that the radiators would be cooler and your used bathwater would be heated to a higher temperature than it was in the first place.

mikemmb
20th Aug 2016, 11:07
Why not have the bathwater outlet directed to a sump rather than to the drain? The incoming water supply for any heating system could be routed through the sump to, in effect, be pre warmed thus reducing heating costs.
I personally like a deep hot bath but it does seem a waste when all the hot water is drained down the main drain when its heat could be utilised in pre heating the incoming water.
Do I get a prize for this energy saving idea?
FF
Now if you used a shower instead of a bath you could use heat recovery!
Waste (hot) water goes down plug hole into a heat exchanger. Cold water comes in through heat exchanger and gets pre-heated. Works with electric showers (less electricity required) and blending type showers (less boiler heated hot water required).

Fareastdriver
20th Aug 2016, 11:53
You can't have a shower with an electric heater! If the water pressure isn't sufficient to press you against the wall then its not a decent shower.

ExXB
21st Aug 2016, 08:26
Haven't seen one of those shower pump thingies anywhere outside of the U.K. Our water pressure here is sufficient to press you against the wall without an electric device.

Perhaps we need an EU rule on water pressure, and on holding tanks in the attic. This is the 21t century after all

VP959
21st Aug 2016, 08:46
Perhaps we need an EU rule on water pressure, and on holding tanks in the attic. This is the 21t century after all

We already have a UK rule on water pressure, that stipulates the minimum allowable pressure at the incoming main.

The problem with many older houses in the UK is that they have cold water storage tanks in the loft and they supply the hot and cold water to the bath/shower. The result is a pressure that is far lower than the incoming mains pressure, often less than 0.5 bar. This is why double (hot and cold) shower pumps are popular, to increase the pressure enough to get a decent shower.

Our house has a pressure of between 3.5 and 4.5 bar on the cold and hot supplies throughout the house (no cold or hot tank), which is more than adequate for a powerful shower.

ExXB
21st Aug 2016, 13:13
We already have a UK rule on water pressure

Obviously not good enough. An EU rule would solve everyone's problems and generate revenues for French and German companies, Polish plumbers and cost British Tax Payers Billions.

Win-Win-Whatever !!!!

[tongue in cheek smilie]

dazdaz1
21st Aug 2016, 13:41
Yesterday I was informed (very near future) that packets of ten cigarettes will no longer be available, what a great idea (people like me) trying to cut down/give up I've weaned myself down to a ten packet a day. It's enough to turn me to drink!

G-CPTN
21st Aug 2016, 14:14
I would have thought that the ban would have been on the larger packs (20s) to encourage people to buy less.

There used to be packets of 5s when I was a youngster.

QTG
21st Aug 2016, 18:52
5s - luxury! We used to buy Senior Service one at a time from the caff round the corner from school! 3d each I seem to remember.

rans6andrew
21st Aug 2016, 19:19
We have a cold water holding tank in the loft and a hot water cylinder in the airing cupboard. The hot and cold supplies to our sinks/bath/shower are pressurised by the head of water in the loft which means that our shower is just as good during electrical power outages. This has happened a few times since we moved here. It would also work during water outages.

Metro man
22nd Aug 2016, 12:04
I think the ban on 10 packs of cigarettes is to make them less affordable and discourage smoking. Many third world countries have street sellers offering single cigarettes for sale as buying 20 at once is beyond many peoples means.

Gordon17
22nd Aug 2016, 12:57
It works - many years ago my mate gave up smoking when they stopped selling Park Drive in 5s.

Rosevidney1
22nd Aug 2016, 20:51
Many of the 'large' packets of cigarettes only contain 19 these days!