Help for Westland Scout & Wasp book

[Amos Keeto]

For those that are familiar with the Warpaint series of books for the modeller, I am currently gathering material for one on the Westland Scout & Wasp.
I have all the photos I need, but am unable to find any good quality colour photos of Army Scouts that operated in Cyprus painted in United Nations markings, with light blue tail band and 'UN' lettering. Can you help? Also if any Scout or Wasp pilot is interested in contributing a piece describing the handling idiocyncracies of a Scout or Wasp, I would love to hear from him?

[Sloppy Link]

PM me, I can help. Autos are sporty, hydraulic failure takes some effort. Don't be too spirited or you will hear a popping sound as the compressor stalls. Run out of tail rotor authority in strong winds. Always check the throttle is open. Always. And then check again.
Re paint schemes and photos, try the Musum of Army Flying, they have extensive archives.

[Amos Keeto]

Many thanks to those that replied by pm. Some great experiences related on the Scout. Any Ex Navy Wasp pilots out there that would care to relate their experiences with the Wasp at sea?
Also still looking for a photo of an Army Scout in United Nations markings as operated in Cyprus.

[Sloppy Link]

Many thanks to those that replied by pm. Some great experiences related on the Scout. Any Ex Navy Wasp pilots out there that would care to relate their experiences with the Wasp at sea?
Also still looking for a photo of an Army Scout in United Nations markings as operated in Cyprus.

Our records do not show Scout in Cyprus, it would have been Alouette II or Gazelle. Archivist doesn't know of any Scout in UN colours, closest we can come up with is white cross in the doors for Op AGUILA.

[Self loading bear]

I found these 2 images on the internet.
So there has at least incidentally been a scout on Cyprus.

Link 1 (http://downloads.unmultimedia.org/photo/medium/159/159709.jpg)

link 2 (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/makarios-iii-in-nicosia-cyprus-on-february-21-1964-makarios-news-photo/111072735#cyprus-crisis-makarios-iii-in-nicosia-cyprus-on-february-21-1964-and-picture-id111072735)

SLB

[ericferret]

The second image has Pegasus on the doors so is almost certainly a parachute regiment flight aircraft.

[Michael Gee]

Looks like Sam Lochead as the pilot

[Sloppy Link]

I found these 2 images on the internet.
So there has at least incidentally been a scout on Cyprus.

Link 1 (http://downloads.unmultimedia.org/photo/medium/159/159709.jpg)

link 2 (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/makarios-iii-in-nicosia-cyprus-on-february-21-1964-makarios-news-photo/111072735#cyprus-crisis-makarios-iii-in-nicosia-cyprus-on-february-21-1964-and-picture-id111072735)

SLB
As you say, incidental, even perhaps tasked to UN by British Forces in the absence of any other rotary assets. Remains, our records do not show Scout assigned to UN. If we can get a tail number, we can dig further. Parachute Regiment Battalions didn't have a Flight, the Brigade had a Squadron (656?). Photos seem to indicate 1964, suggest these two photos are from the initial set up of UNFICYP.

[Amos Keeto]

Someone is telling 'porkies' then as I have been sent a photo of XP890 and XP896 in full UNO markings operated by 3 Flt. 651 Sqn. in Cyprus December 1964

[SilsoeSid]

removed info

[SilsoeSid]

removed info

[MOSTAFA]

Parachute Regiment Battalions didn't have a flight!

No they had a Squadron, 664 Parachute Sqn AAC. Disbanded 1976/77 when 16 Parachute Bde was disbanded. I would suggest the aircraft with Pegasus on the door was a 664 Sqn cab and certainly 1 Para did a Cyprus UN tour, maybe more, almost certainly a flight from 664 would have accompanied them.

[SilsoeSid]

https://sites.google.com/site/barmavn/aircraft/scout

1965 Sep 20, XR599: (7 Flt/656 Sqn, Borneo) Went missing during a 40-nautical-mile (74 km) night flight from Lundu to Kuching, the mission being to transport a local communist suspect to the Sarawak capital for interrogation. At 23:00 hrs the aircraft was posted as missing and a search and rescue mission was mounted. Although the aircraft and the remains of the pilot, the escort rifleman and the suspect were never found, a fisherman later dredged up small parts of the aircraft wreckage. On 23 September, The Straits Times newspaper speculated that the Scout may have been hi-jacked by the prisoner who had somehow managed to capture his escort's weapon and then ordered the pilot to either fly out to sea or over the jungle towards the Indonesian border until they ran out of fuel. Tragedy struck a second time on 25 Sep when an RAF Whirlwind of 225 Sqn, searching over jungle for XR599, crashed killing the five crew.

Blimey :sad:

[Lokwyr]

Prior to becoming 664 Sqn, the Para regiments had their own flights. They were amalgamated into 21 Flight before my posting to them in 1969. Aircraft then were 6 Sioux AH1 and 6 Scout AH1. There were a couple of Scouts with XP tail nos (890/ 891 ?). All had the Pegasus decal on forward doors. The all-metal tail rotor blades replaced the earlier wooden bladed items in or about 1970. In'69 all our Scouts had the fully bulged rear doors to seat 4 rear pax.
The Link 2 photo (Sid's) Makarios Iii In Nicosia, Cyprus On February 21, 1964: Makarios and... News Photo | Getty Images (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/license/111072736) definitely shows XP889.
The rear doors are the earlier version with the small bulge low to accommodate the casualty litter handles (Wasps never had the big-bulge doors due to fitment of the flotation gear fitment).
I suspect that the Scout in photos (Links1 & 2 above) were taken during either an emergency detachment or an exercise that happened to be at the right time; the S/Sgt pilot isn't wearing Cyprus theatre uniform

[Sloppy Link]

https://sites.google.com/site/barmavn/aircraft/scout



Blimey :sad:

Met his family recently.

[Sloppy Link]

Regardless, archives do not show Scout in UN livery, armed with this information, we'll search again. That said, we are all volunteers and if we get it wrong, it is sometimes because we are looking in the wrong place or others have information and they haven't offered it or we haven't asked the right person. Record keeping from that time isn't an Excel spreadsheet with a Ctrl+F function.
Being proved wrong sometimes throws up more questions than it solves!

[Self loading bear]

It took some searching
Definitely a Scout with UN colours
Obituary Lieutenant-Colonel-Allan-Corner (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/army-obituaries/8009794/Lieutenant-Colonel-Allan-Corner.html)
SLB

[Sloppy Link]

It took some searching
Definitely a Scout with UN colours
Obituary Lieutenant-Colonel-Allan-Corner (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/army-obituaries/8009794/Lieutenant-Colonel-Allan-Corner.html)
SLB

That, is an outstanding effort SLB, do you live near MW, we could do with that level of historical corpoarate knowledge. Meanwhile, I'll get the young pups back on to it. It'll cost a lot of Jaffa Cakes!

[Self loading bear]

Additional photo to my previous stated "link 2"
(Not UN livery)

february-21-1964-makarios (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/makarios-iii-in-nicosia-cyprus-on-february-21-1964-makarios-news-photo/111072736)
SLB

[ericferret]

Off topic but given the fine response to the issue above I thought I would post here.
I looked up the fate of the aircraft in the photo above and while doing so I also looked up Gazelle XW850. My understanding was that 850 was involved in a fatal accident in which 3 trainee engineers on an air experience flight were killed while flying out of Middle Wallop. This would be circa 1972/3.

Looking up the aircraft there is no mention of this accident and I am left wondering if I have got the wrong aircraft or my memory is seriously at fault.
The details given for the loss of 850 do not tally with my recollections although the reason given i.e electrical interference between the anti collision beacon and the hydraulic shut off valve is plausible as this was an issue at the time.

My understanding was that the aircraft entered a dive during which the controls locked and the impact resulted. This was put down to jack stall and military Gazelles were modified by installation of a hydraulic accumulator.

Any clarification would be appreciated as it is sad to think that these young mens lives have been airbrushed from history by the power of the internet.

[Sloppy Link]

UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/)

Confirms your recollection.

[ericferret]

Hi Sloppy link

I think we are at cross purposes, I saw the UK serials entry and I believe that to be wrong.
I recall the aircraft crashing as a result of jackstall not as a result of the anti coll beacon wiring issue. Furthermore I believe the accident sadly included fatalities not as reported elsewhere no fatalities. I am sure that at some point I did find an accident report that covered the fatal crash but I cant find it. Hence my confusion as to whether I have the correct serial number.

I did find this which refers to a stall but no details

http://www.hampshireairfields.co.uk/hancrash.html

Also this which refers to a stall and the light issue but does not mention an accident in connection with the light.

http://www.flyingmarines.com/3BAS_Enlarged_images/Gazelle_IFTU.htm

[SilsoeSid]

SS;
[post with links to photos]

sl;
Regardless, archives do not show Scout in UN livery, armed with this information, we'll search again. That said, we are all volunteers and if we get it wrong, it is sometimes because we are looking in the wrong place or others have information and they haven't offered it or we haven't asked the right person. Record keeping from that time isn't an Excel spreadsheet with a Ctrl+F function.
Being proved wrong sometimes throws up more questions than it solves!

slb;
It took some searching
Definitely a Scout with UN colours
Obituary Lieutenant-Colonel-Allan-Corner
SLB

sl;
That, is an outstanding effort SLB, do you live near MW, we could do with that level of historical corpoarate knowledge. Meanwhile, I'll get the young pups back on to it. It'll cost a lot of Jaffa Cakes!

What is really annoying is to read a sequence of posts like this after finding and posting the information requested in the thread starting post. If you followed the information given on earlier posts you would have found pictures such as this;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/6eeaba8cb22c7f2dfb2832d991311c55_zpsyuoaci2t.jpg

Previous info & links removed, have this pic on me, happy hunting for all the other pictures :mad:

[Sloppy Link]

What is really annoying is to read a sequence of posts like this after finding and posting the information requested in the thread starting post. If you followed the information given on earlier posts you would have found pictures such as this;

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/6eeaba8cb22c7f2dfb2832d991311c55_zpsyuoaci2t.jpg

Previous info & links removed, have this pic on me, happy hunting for all the other pictures :mad:

That's a shame, we are going to miss your, polite, courteous and self-effacing posts.

Moving on, XW850 accident attributed to jackstall.

[SilsoeSid]

That's a shame, we are going to miss your, polite, courteous and self-effacing posts.

Would that be the same posts that provide links to photographs, that self proclaimed experts like yourself tell us don't exist?

[SilsoeSid]

Moving on, XW850 accident attributed to jackstall.

Nothing about the wiring fault then!
Experts eh! ;)

[Sloppy Link]

XW850 accident not attributed to wiring.
Archives, on initial search, had no records. Stand by for further.

[ericferret]

Odd really as I believe that this accident had three fatalities.
Further to this I have information that suggests that the jack stall theory may well have been incorrect.

[Sloppy Link]

You may have information but the accident report stands.

[sycamore]

Amos, email/pm for u.

[SilsoeSid]

XW850 accident not attributed to wiring.
Archives, on initial search, had no records. Stand by for further.
Slops, Doesn't your accident report mention the anti col wiring?
I recall the official report being brought up when I had a cockpit electrical fire/smoke incident in a Gazelle involving the anti col switch wiring.

The cause of mine was the extra kit added to the central instrument panel compressing the spring dampers and causing the wires to chafe and short, slightly different but similar department as the Fordingbridge incident.

[ericferret]

I think that the accident to XW850 has become confused with the wiring incident.
Although I have not been able to find confirmation of it. I believe XW850 crashed after the pilot took avoiding action to prevent a collision with a Wessex. During that action the cyclic froze and the aircraft struck the ground resulting in the three back seaters being killed.
The accident was subsequently attributed to Jack stall and a modification to incorporate a hydraulic accumulator was embodied.

I accept that the report stands as by the time further information came to light the wreckage was long gone and so no direct link could be established.

Circa 1976 the sister ship XW851 was undergoing a major inspection at 70 Workshops. During that inspection a manufacturing defect was identified which involved
the stick friction at the base of the pilots stick. This defect caused the stick to jam solidly and no amount of force would allow it move rearwards. At the time a signal was sent to all squadrons operating the Gazelle to carry out an immediate inspection. I suppose there must be a record of that somewhere in Aircraft Branch or whatever it is called these days. One officer within 70 at that time was a Major Southern who I believe had been involved in the original crash investigation. He felt that the defect in 851 mirrored the pilots report from the 850 accident.

I have always wondered if anybody ever spoke to 850's pilot about this finding.
I recall that some doubt was thrown on his version of events and a positive finding of this nature may have been welcome.

This defect could actually remain dormant for years as a combination of friction setting and stick movement were required to induce the jam. At the time there was little contact between the military and the civilian world and no Airworthiness Directive was ever issued for civilian aircraft although they came off the same production line using similar parts. It is actually possible that even after all this time the defect could still be
present in some aircraft.

I am hoping that the three servicemen killed in the accident will be remembered on the forthcomming Memorial Wall at The Museum of Army Flying

The Memorial Wall (http://www.armyflying.com/support-us/the-memorial/)

During this period a number of Air Techs were killed both in Northern Ireland and Germany.

[ericferret]

To actually get back on topic for a while there is another small mystery involving the Scout. According to the link

UK Serials (http://www.ukserials.com/)

Scout XV135 an ex 660 Sqdn Soest aircraft was scrapped in the Far East in the 80's.
However prior to 1979 a stripped out Scout fuselage lay on the fire dump at Middle Wallop.
Poking around I noticed that the anti slip walkway in the cockpit doors was outlined in a non standard orange paint. The only aircraft I had ever seen like that was XV135. All the panels had been removed, these would normally have the identification stencilled on them. However one panel remained thrown into the bottom of the aircraft, a panel from a tailboom. Stencilled on it was XV135.

A time machine would help at this point!!!

[MOSTAFA]

Don't think it was the last time they used something from the bomb dump or the tip come to that to fix something else.

[Amos Keeto]

Well done guys - we got there in the end and proved that Scouts did operate in Cyprus in UN markings. Now the next question is, did these markings last long enough for a change in camo colours on the Scouts from brown/green to black/green?