Risks of helicopter winching?

[Dick Smith]

I notice that more and more in Australia people in distress are being winched into helicopters when they can often be very easily recovered by ground parties .

Isn't this a relatively risky operation?

Talking to a rescue helicopter pilot recently he told me that in many cases there is not single engine accountability in twin engined machines when winching.

Is this so?

I fully understand there are many times when there is not a less risky alternative.

If a patient , say with a fractured leg, or with very minor injuries, can be readily evacuated by a ground party why isn't a decision made to do this?

[OvertHawk]

I can't comment on Australia specifically, Dick, but in general it's a case of a risk-analysis done by the aircrew and ground teams on-scene.

It may be that the casualty has only minor injuries (And I don't agree that a fractured leg necessarily constitutes a minor injury when you're outdoors) but a minor injury can very quickly become a serious issue when you are outdoors and exposed to extremes of the environment.

One also has to consider the extended risks involved. You suggest evacuating them with ground teams on a stretcher. All well and good but that implies that you have sufficient people to do that and time. It also places a different kind of risk onto the rescuers - as anyone who has ever carried a stretcher over even slightly rough terrain will tell you.

Time is also a factor - even if it does not directly affect the severity of the casualty's injury, the more time that the team have to spend dealing with him is more time that they have to spend in a potentially hazardous environment and less time that they are available for another incident. Sometimes just getting them out of there with the helicopter is the best thing to do.

At the same time you have to be sensible. As an example I'm reminded of a case a few years ago where a UKCG SAR crew decided not to winch a fisherman with a comparatively minor hand injury because they felt that the helicopter would have been very exposed in the event of a failure of any kind. They asked the vessel to steam towards land and went back later with less fuel and a greater power margin.

Yes there is a risk to everything but I'm not aware of a massive number of engine failure related accidents in the SAR community and as we see the introduction of newer machines with better single engine performance then this should become even less of an issue.

OH

[Ascend Charlie]

From 45 years of using helicopters in various roles, I only ever did 1 winch rescue (of 4 people) in a twin, the rest were all in singles. And singles don't have OEI ability, as you know.

It is not always a case of life or death. Mostly it is just to reduce somebody's suffering, and to avoid sending a rescue party into a hazardous environment. A couple of times I have winched out a person who has suffered an injury, and then refused to lift out his companions. They were able to walk out in a few hours, if uncomfortably, but the risk of 3 more hoists under those conditions for people who were not injured was too high.

Very few twin rescue machines can stay in a hover on one engine at the weights they operate at.

[RVDT]

Dick,

Look up winching accidents in Australia - there's been a few bad ones.

In my opinion it is taken a bit lighter than it should be.

Most winches on "singles" can ONLY be used in an emergency.

Consult the fine print - Bell 206 for example.

[Dick Smith]

Do other countries have fatal winch accidents like we have?

I remember meeting the young widow of a man who had been killed in a winch accident. Very sad.

[Dick Smith]

Ascend. You say very few twin engined machines can stay in the hover at typical operating weights when winching .What does the pilot then do if winching with a crew member and a patient on the winch and an engine failure?

And there is twice as much chance of an engine failure in a twin engined machine.

[Ascend Charlie]

The briefing is firstly to try to get the winch load into the aircraft.

If not, wait till they land on the ground as the helo descends, then cut the cable, so they don't roll down the hill with the chopper.

But look up the statistics of how many actual engine failures happen with a hoist load, compared to the myriad of other ways that it can go wrong, twin or not. Rotor strike, poke the tail into a tree, runaway hoist, cable snags on something, inadvertent cable cut, rescuee wriggles out of horse collar, stokes litter spins without a static line.

RVDT, the winch can also be used for training, not just for a real emergency.

[[email protected]]

Dick, in addition to the good info from Ascend and Overthawk, the pilot can choose his operating height to ensure a flyaway option for the aircraft during the winching - this gives the winch operator the option of cutting the cable or winching in fast, depending on what stage the engine failure occurs.

Winching safely requires lots of good quality training and constant practice because, even without the issue of engine failure, poor technique can take a winching scenario from 'easy-peasy' to 'f**k-me' in a matter of seconds.

[S76Heavy]

As a former SAR pilot an example I can give you is a body recovery in a mountainous area. It was either send in a ground party of 6 100 metres down a steep decline, who would need several hours to complete the job, or 10 minutes with a crew of 4 on board of the helicopter to recover the remains and airlift the casualty to a landing site.

As a crew we felt it was the proper decision to use the helicopter. We might have been called out for a subsequent rescue of the recovery party anyway..
But they were some of the most tense 10 minutes of my life.

[catseye]

Dick,

there is a whole lot of risk analysis sitting behind most of these operations both from a down the wire people and the hopefully still flying crew. As has been stated try and find a twin that will fly on one engine and they are pretty rare at the weights usually found in OZ.

Single engine winching has a long and safe background in NSW with more than 800 training and real winches done in single engine per year. One particular " consultant" believes in twin winching only yet other agencies have a safe history over many years.

Keep in mind a stretcher carry over a long distance or a walk in can expose a number of people to risks of falls, trips etc.


Want to discuss winching with or without a ballistic cable cutter? That should chew up a few pages. Start with over land and over water. :rolleyes:

[John Eacott]

Dick,

The assessment of whether a winch retrieval is merited or not goes much further than you seem to imply in your OP. An increase in the use of helicopters in such circumstances reflects the improved SE capability of Australia's current fleet of Ambulance/SAR helicopters, especially the AW139 with outstanding SE capability. Even the 412 was generally required by the operator to be at OEI weight prior to commencing winchops, so I'm not sure why you would assert otherwise unless someone you spoke to hadn't got the full SP or was new to the game.

Certainly we operated with SE machines in the military and this flowed to the civvie market but generally those days are long gone. There are far more considerations than just OEI capability, and far more failures that can lead to an emergency than just an engine going 'cough'.

[jimf671]

The following have been extracted from ICAR Air Commission documents over the last 4 years or incidents witnessed.

- Physiological degradation caused by chest strop
- Casualty in strop loosing consciousness
- Roll out from hook
- Shock load breaking wire
- Attachment to rock-face/vessel
- Entanglement with gear (causing either attachment or unintended persons on winch)
- Blade strike hovering near obstacle
- Loss of visual references
- Accidentally hooked to weak harness point
- Winching starts with person unattached or partially attached
- Untethered hoist operator
- Hi-line attached to person or object on the ground
- Hi-line entanglement with person on winch
- Hi-line weak-link insufficient for large high-powered rotorcraft
- Tree blown down by hovering aircraft during winching
- Aircraft enveloped by descending cloud-base during winch operation
- Downwash causing fatal fall
- Accidental cable cut

So, is it risky? I think that's a yes.

[RVDT]

RVDT, the winch can also be used for training, not just for a real emergency.

Only if "CASA" says so as nobody else will.

Most RFM supplements by manufacturers do NOT mention the fact that humans will ever be on the end of the cable.
They avoid the liability and that is up to you to prove along with your NAA and ops manual etc. Terms used are "cargo" or "object".

Pretty much standard in RFM supplements - The external load equipment certification approval does not constitute operational approval; operational approval for external load operations must be granted by the local aviation authority.

Just so that you are aware that if it does go pear shaped you better have your ducks in a row.
How your NAA substantiates it would be the sticking point. :roll eyes:

There are or used to be quite a few operations with winches in Aus where it is Human External Load and NOT an emergency.
i.e. Part 133 D or equivalent.

RFS and Frogs and Logs comes to mind. Way out on a limb - excuse the pun.

[Dick Smith]

John. It was a AW139 pilot who told me that the aircraft are fitted with so much equipment that they often winch when an engine failure would not allow the aircraft to stay in the air.

Kim. Good points. I am looking at total risk. Not just from engine failure.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
In light of the rescue of the two little girls just outside Orange a few days ago, this is an interesting discussion.

The two little girls were only a shot distance from a road in relatively open country.

I am in furious agreement with those here who question whether the elevated risks being taken winching, the myriad of threats being generated, are commensurate with the risks of alternative rescue.

We all understand situations when life is seriously at risk, when time to hospital and intensive care is vital to survival, but this wasn't one of them. What possible risk analysis justified operating in the dead man's curve for a protracted time, versus the slightly longer time to walk the girls out??

One thing we have proven, time and again in aviation in general, in Australia, is we are not very good at real and rational risk analysis, particularly CASA, and to my mind, winching when there is no immediately life threatening risk, should be avoided.

In short, winching operations should be limited to when there is absolutely no alternative. SAR crews face quite enough "routine" threats in their day to day roles, without facing (knowingly or unknowingly) unnecessary threats.

Tootle pip!!

[Ascend Charlie]

There was a case a few years back when the decision NOT to winch caused the loss of an aircraft. The Polair Twin Squirrel (bought second-hand after the State Gummint refused to replace the BK117 which had a swim - coincidentally by this same pilot) was sent to rescue rock fishermen trapped by big seas up near Wyong. The choice was made to touch a skid on the rocks to let the fishermen climb on board, instead of winching.

Sadly a big wave came along and washed over the nose of the aircraft, obscuring vision. The pilot hesitated until the water receded and he could see properly before lifting off, but by then a second wave washed over, a bit higher, and put the fires out.

Fishermen and Polair crew rescued off the rocks some time later by ground crew. Squirrel rescued by a Kamov from Hevilift, carried away ignominiously upside down.

[jimf671]

In the UK, it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that aircrew go to to keep us safe on the wire. That goes for current contractors and previous military providers. The CAA and previously the MAA and predecessor military authorities have clearly been part of creating these working practices. :ok:

Fortunately, in Scotland, unlike Australia, we have the advantage that cold and wind come as standard. :E Altitudes do not exceed 4500 feet.

It would be good if one of the guys would step in and give us some detail on the current working practices. (No going to hold my breath.)

[SuperF]

i have heard of a case where the rescue heli landed on a beach, crewman got out, walked around to 4 kids that they were trying to rescue, then the helicopter went around and winched all 5 of them back onboard....

If the crewman could walk there, why couldn't the kids walk out? :ugh:

That report came from the parents of 3 of the kids, and they were wondering why the kids couldn't walk around to the helicopter.....

[megan]

i have heard of a caseDon't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see. Heard a story from a supposed passenger who alleged the pilot (individual named) popped the floats on a S-76, landed in the water, shut down, did a bit of fishing, started up, took off, sucked up the floats and flew home. Believe it or not (used to be a TV show by that name).

[SuperF]

Megan, totally understand, but i have heard, also seen the video, and have the t shirt...

in this case i believe the video evidence. ;)

[Flyting]

In short, winching operations should be limited to when there is absolutely no alternative. SAR crews face quite enough "routine" threats in their day to day roles, without facing (knowingly or unknowingly) unnecessary threats.
:D:D:D

We don't winch but use a double hook and sling people in and out of situations. One of my crewmen is a sling junky and likes to fly under on the line, and I have to constantly tell him no, and to Carry the patient the small distance to the helicopter (where possible).... no matter how many times I explain the risks of hanging underneath to him... :hmm:

The few extra minutes don't make much difference to the whole rescue.

[Dick Smith]

Ascend. In that example you give it sounds to me as if the attempted landing or a winching was not necessary in this case as you mention everyone was later recovered by a ground crew.

Did I understand you correctly?

[John Eacott]

John. It was a AW139 pilot who told me that the aircraft are fitted with so much equipment that they often winch when an engine failure would not allow the aircraft to stay in the air.

Very surprised to hear that, Dick, considering the outstanding OEI capability of the AW139. ISTR that it can hover on one up to a mid-summer temp at MAUW.

Back to your OP, as I mentioned the loss of a donk isn't the only consideration for assessment of whether to winch or not, and many have contributed examples already. But any Australian winch approved operator will have these criteria enshrined in their ops manual and if a pilot isn't following them then it comes back to either operational necessity or poor decision making skills.

Times have changed, and what we used to do isn't what is currently acceptable in many cases.

[Ascend Charlie]

Super F, when the floats are popped on a 76, the strut that holds open the flipper doors for the main gear gets severed, so the doors are free to flap (and stops them from puncturing the bags). Nobody would subsequently fly around with those doors flapping in the breeze. And anyway, there is no way to "suck up" the float bags once inflated. You have been duped.

Dick, I have tried in vain to find the newspaper article about Chucky's Second Swim, to refresh my tired brain on the facts. It may even have been the Westpac crew who had to come and remove the fishermen and the Polair crew. Don't remember, but there was a vague memory of them being retrieved by rescue squad people coming down the cliffs. Or maybe they were the ones who hooked the Squirrel up for the Kamov. Nearly 30 years ago, and I had left Polair by then.

[[email protected]]

John, I think if you talk to pilots who fly the 139 in full SAR role with a normal fuel load - OEI hover isn't an option - it seems to be a bit of an urban myth with the aircraft that is not borne out by reality.

For example - adding FIPS costs about 200kg in payload.

[I16]

This was about a month ago.


Hero helicopter pilot behind Manawatu Gorge crash rescue reveals 'bloody great team effort' - National - NZ Herald News (http://api.viglink.com/api/click?format=go&jsonp=vglnk_147013069536311&drKey=1140&libId=ird9utm8010004n5000DA5p9hiuj0&loc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ferrarichat.com%2Fforum%2Faviatorchat-com%2F355315-learning-fly-helicopter-3.html&v=1&out=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.viglink.com%2Fapi%2Fclick%3Fformat%3Dgo %26jsonp%3Dvglnk_146805895083311%26key%3Dbbb516d91daee204987 98694a42dd559%26libId%3Diqf0czcl010004m6000DAlz17ag47%26loc% 3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Frnzaf.proboards.com%252Fthread%252F2431 5%252Fhelicopter-rescue-less-ideal-conditions%26v%3D1%26out%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.nzherald.c o.nz%252Fnz%252Fnews%252Farticle.cfm%253Fc_id%253D1%2526obje ctid%253D11671546%26ref%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Frnzaf.proboards .com%252Fboard%252F18%252Fzealands-civil-aviation-yesterday-today%26title%3DHelicopter%2520Rescue%2520-%2520Less%2520Than%2520Ideal%2520Conditions%2520%257C%2520Wi ngs%2520Over%2520New%2520Zealand%26txt%3Dwww.nzherald.co.nz% 252Fnz%252Fnews%252Farticle.cfm%253Fc_id%253D1%2526amp%253Bo bjectid%253D11671546&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ferrarichat.com%2Fforum%2Faviatorchat-com%2F355315-learning-fly-helicopter-2.html&title=learning%20to%20fly%20a%20helicopter%20-%20Page%203%20-%20FerrariChat.com&txt=Hero%20helicopter%20pilot%20behind%20Manawatu%20Gorge%20 crash%20rescue%20reveals%20'bloody%20great%20team%20effort'% 20-%20National%20-%20NZ%20Herald%20News)

[[email protected]]

Good skills - nice job:ok:

[Ascend Charlie]

Back in the early 80s, we were called to the cliffs near Bondi to help 2 rock fishermen stranded by rising tide, big seas, and approaching nightfall. We were able to find a flattish rock to land on and loaded them into the cabin for the 400' climb back to the top of the cliff.
A month later, another call to the same area. We land, get them on board again in the same fashion. The crewman looks at the men, says "You're the same ****s that we picked up last month! You haven't learned a ****** thing!" , opened the door, and threw their gear into the sea.

[SuperF]

Super F, when the floats are popped on a 76, the strut that holds open the flipper doors for the main gear gets severed, so the doors are free to flap (and stops them from puncturing the bags). Nobody would subsequently fly around with those doors flapping in the breeze. And anyway, there is no way to "suck up" the float bags once inflated. You have been duped.

Ascend Charlie, the only comments i made about seeing the video was where the heli crewman hoped out and walked to the people to be rescued, and then they went ahead and winched the kids up. It was someone else that said about floats popping in and out.

SF

[500guy]

Dick, I started a list back in 2013 when I was considering starting a hoist program.
These are all of the ones I knew of as of 2013. I think there have been a few since....
I recall one earlier this year where a boat captain being hoisted broke is leg when the helicopter set him down abruptly in rough seas.


August 31, 2013 - The ATSB is investigating the 31 August2013 accident where a person fell from a winch harness and died while beingwinched on board an Air Ambulance Victoria helicopter near Lake Eildon,Victoria.





July 22, 2013 - On July 22,2013, about 2220 Pacific daylight time (PDT), a rescue officer fell from a BellHH-1H, N233JP, during a rescue hoist operation near Mount Charleston, Nevada.Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department operated the helicopter as apublic-use search and rescue operation under the provisions of 14 Code ofFederal Regulations (CFR) Part 91. The flight crew consisted of two commercialpilots and three crewmen, a crew chief, a hoist operator, and a rescue officer.The rescue officer was fatally injured, the rescued passenger and fourcrewmembers were uninjured; the helicopter sustained no damage. The localpublic-use flight departed North Las Vegas, Nevada, about 2150. Night visualmeteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed.Theoperator reported that during a night time rescue operation, while hoisting acivilian hiker and a rescue officer off the side of a mountain, the rescueofficer fell to his death. The civilian hiker was recovered to the helicopterby use of the helicopter hoist without injury. Subsequent investigations have revealed no equipment malfunctions.





March 3, 2013 A SaudiCivil Defence rescue officer has died after he fell from a helicopter duringthe celebration of the World Civil Defence Day in the capital Riyadh. Reportssaid that First Class Pvt Abdul Aziz Bin Abdullah Al Qah’tani was not able tosurvive the severe injuries and fractures he suffered when he fell on Saturdaymorning in the parking lot of Gharnata Mall.





December 25, 2011 A paramedic has been killed while trying towinch an injured canyoner to safety at Carrington Falls near Wollongong in NSW.It isunderstood that with the injured canyoner strapped to him, Mr Wilson steppedoff a cliff and swung into the ravine so the pair could be winched up into thehelicopter. But they crashed into acliff face opposite and Mr Wilson was pinned between his patient and therock wall. Both men had to be lowered to the ravine floor, police said, wherethe helicopter team was forced to cut the winch line. It is understood that wasdone because Mr Wilson was unable to free himself from the wire. He died soonafter from internal injuries.




November9, 2009 - The Australian TransportSafety Bureau released a final investigative report regarding the November 9,2009 hoisting accident. This accident seriously injured two crew members, whenthe hoist cable failed and they fell approximately 50 ft (16 m) ontodeck of the ship. The event occurred when a Bell 412 operated by Torres StraitAmbulance rendezvoused with a container ship (Maersk Duffield) to evacuate anill crew member.




July 21, 2009 - The purpose of the flight was toconduct proficiency rappel training. During a preflight equipment check, one ofthe rappellers identified a broken "Kong" clip on the Tri-link/J-hookinterface on the harness. He replaced the Kong clip with a rubber O-ring (anauthorized substitution) and then he returned to the helicopter. Minutes later,with the helicopter in a stabilized hover, witnesses on the ground reportedthat they observed the rappeller transition from inside the helicopter to theport side skid, then fall down the rope at excessive speed. Postaccidentexamination of the rope and harness assembly revealed that the rappeller'sJ-hook was attached to the Sky Genie and rope; however, the J-hook was notattached to the Tri-link and harness. A broken O-ring, believed to be theO-ring used to center the Tri-link and J-hook, was found on the groundapproximately 30 feet from where the harness assembly was located. Evidenceobtained during the investigation suggests that the rappeller's Tri-link andJ-hook were not mechanically linked (prior to the rappeller transitioning tothe skid), but rather inadvertently linked together with a non load-bearingO-ring used to center the latching devices. Examination of the J-hook, SkyGenie, Tri-link and harness by investigators from the US Forest Servicerevealed no evidence of malfunction or defect.


The National Transportation SafetyBoard determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:


The rappeller'sfailure to properly latch the rappelling harness to the rappelling assemblybefore exiting the helicopter.





Sept 4, 2008 - A helicopter crash that killed a four-member US CoastGuard aircrew last year was caused when a tangled rescue hoist snappedand damaged the rotor blades, according to a report released Friday.The aircrewmanaged to right the helicopter but did not realize that the helicopter was toodamaged to return to land the night of Sept. 4, 2008, according toinvestigators.The Dolphin HH-65 crashed into the Pacific Ocean six miles southof Honolulu International Airport. The service members killed that night wereCmdr. Thomas Nelson, Lt. Cmdr. Andrew Wischmeier, Aviation Survival Technician1st Class David Skimin and Aviation Maintenance Technician 1st Class JoshuaNichols. Nelson, the pilot, was the executive officer at Coast Guard AirStation Barbers Point.







February 10, 2005,an MD-902 helicopter crashed while conducting hoist operations on a containership off Shanghai, China. Three occupants were fatally injured, the pilotsustained serious injuries.


January 10, 2005,about 1312 UTC, a Sikorsky S76C, JA6903, operated by the Japan Coast Guard on atraining mission, experienced a loss ofengine power while hovering over a ship located 28 nautical miles westsouthwest of Niigata Airport (RJSN). The helicopter collided with the shipbefore hitting the water and sinking. The meteorological conditions at the timeare unknown. The helicopter was destroyed and the two pilots, and two of the fourcrewmembers were not injured. The other two crewmembers received serious andminor injuries. It was reported that the helicopter was hovering about 80 feetabove a Coast Guard ship, lowering a hoist cable to pick up a rescuer and adummy from the ship deck when the number 1 engine experienced a loss of power.The hoist cable was cut by a crew member and the pilot tried to maneuver thehelicopter away from the ship. During the descending and evasive maneuver, thehelicopter collided with the bow of the ship with its tail section. The pilotwas unable to deploy the helicopter's emergency floats as it landed in thewater and rolled to the right side and capsized, subsequently sinking.

[John Eacott]

John, I think if you talk to pilots who fly the 139 in full SAR role with a normal fuel load - OEI hover isn't an option - it seems to be a bit of an urban myth with the aircraft that is not borne out by reality.

For example - adding FIPS costs about 200kg in payload.

Having phoned around a bit, there is more to it than first appears. The earlier AW139s certainly have outstanding OEI capability, but the current model is some 600kg heavier MAUW and thus hasn't the same single engine hover at heavier weights. FIPS isn't even a consideration in our climate, but now that Ambos carry more and more gear (eg a fridge is now fitted for blood, etc) the APS weight has increased proportionally.

Regardless it is the weapon of choice for Ambulance operations here in Australia, so the operators must have done their sums and considered it the most capable option.

[[email protected]]

T'was ever thus John - build an aircraft with great performance and the operators will just pile more stuff on until you are back where you started:ok:

[SuperF]

sounds about right. things we used to be able to do with a Jet Ranger or 500, now it takes a BK117. I guess thats what we call progress...

[Bladestrike]

Flying SAR in pretty basic "phase four" 139 models (No AC, no auto hover, short nose, etc) off Africa's East Coast, we often had an OEI flyaway capability or even OEI hover if the winds were there and roughly an hour to an hour and a half fuel remaining. Obviously it was quite warm. We'd never put a guy out on the line for training without OEI hover capability.

[Mark Six]

At 25 degrees and 0' PA the max OEI OGE hover weight is 5460kg. The NSW EMS machines with all the medical gear, night sun, etc, are around 5000kg empty weight. Add 4 crew and some fuel and you are obviously too heavy to hover/winch OEI. Live training winches are done at 15' max.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Interesting that of the 9 incidents in 500guy's post, only two were definitely caused by mechanical/equipment failure (admittedly the initial problem isn't mentioned in every case). Reinforces Crab's point about the need for plenty regular of regular training, so that the rescuers don't end up doing more harm than good.

[Fareastdriver]

Winching for so-called public transport are an essential part of the offshore industry and is safe enough if done correctly. Using a MD902 or a S76 is not safe enough. I have lost count of the winching I have done offshore with the 332 using simple principles of operation.

The aircraft MUST be able to maintain an OEI HOGE.
The crew must be proficient and the passengers, which is what they are, must be briefed on what is happening and what they must do to ensure their safety.
No short cuts, no 'that'll do, if the situation doesn't fit the bill fly away.

An example is winching a Mooring Crew on to and off a tanker which is offloading an FPSO. Impractical by boat, one of the reasons being that the first transfer can be 30 minutes sailing time away. After the tanker has loaded the crew are picked up after the tanker is at full speed owing to the time to do the paperwork.

ONCE, somebody, not our company, decided to land a 332 on the deck because the area was big enough even though it had WINCHING ONLY painted on it. The crap hit the fan. The ships deck isn't stressed for helicopters up to 6.7 tons so the deck had to be inspected in a dockyard. You try getting under the main deck of a tanker.

The picture is taken 120 naut. miles offshore, about 15 knots wind plus five knots on the tanker; 30 degrees, 1500lbs of fuel, well within the OEI curve.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Winching010.jpg (http://s229.photobucket.com/user/fareastdriver/media/Winching010.jpg.html)

[[email protected]]

So 120 nm is not much off an hour's flight and the aircraft burns circa 1000lb/hr with perhaps an MLA of 100lbs - it doesn't leave you much time on station does it? And the ship is bound to be steaming away from land!

With 20 kts across the disc and only 1.5 hours of fuel left, even a Sea King would be OEI in the hover at that temp:ok:

Mark six - did you mean max OGE hover at 5460kg or max OEI OGE hover?

[Fareastdriver]

With winching and special tasks we are permitted to use platform refuelling. You can see one in the background.

[roscoe1]

Recounting the hoist accidents that were in twins where AEO power didn't even make the difference let alone OEI ability there is a case of a UH-1N (woefully underpowered at altitude) and a UH-60 accident that bear mentioning. The twin Huey accident was in Yosimite National Park, CA in June of 2002 (LTE) and the Hawk accident was on Mount Hood , oddly enough , in May of 2002. They are both involve exceeding the machines envelope in an effort to get the job done. When rescuers get injured or die in the course of trying to help people who got into trouble trying to have fun I can only hope the victims stay away from that particular type of fun if they survive. It is doubly unfortunate and another issue all together when accidents happen rescuing people who don't really need aerial rescue but because we have the capability and the mission drive, we go anyway. The issue of the cost burden, even for rescues that go flawlessly, is yet another topic that is not often discussed (at least in the US). Big difference between snagging someone on a foundering fishing trawler compared to a hiker that gets dehydrated and forgot to bring snacks and water, pulls out their cell phone and gets a ride home (believe me , they get hauled out frequently in the US). Risk assessment is probably more critical in aerial rescue than any other non-military aspect of aviation.

[Mark Six]

Oops,
I meant max OEI HOGE! Well spotted Crab. Post has now been edited.

[hihover]

Dick, as the Crab and others have mentioned, continued practice and more practice is the key. I operate a 139 in one of the hottest countries in the world (+49 yesterday) and there isn't another helicopter I'd prefer to use. OEI is always a consideration when winching but with good SOPs and a well trained crew using real time information presented to the pilots, most risks can be mitigated. Hovering OEI is not normally an option in the hot summers here but is very often possible in the cooler months after burning off a bit of fuel.

[Dick Smith]

Yes. All good commonsense here.

But it still concerns me where winching takes place when not really necessary .

Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia.

[[email protected]]

Hopefully all the issues discussed here are properly considered in Australia. But if the Govt is paying you for a winch-equipped helicopter and winch-trained crew, and at the end of the year you haven't actually winched anyone, some bean-counter might ask 'Why pay the extra?';)

As already discussed - there is risk involved in most things, especially aviation, but the crews will hopefully have been well trained enough to balance the risks to themselves and the casualty against the operational imperatives (injuries, fuel, daylight, weather etc) and make a sensible decision. However, even with all the right boxes ticked, an essential winch operation can still go wrong.

[Dick Smith]

Crab. What you say really worries me .

I see winching here when the person can easily be recovered on the ground.

You state that there is a real incentive to winch to keep the contract for a winch equipped helicopter. If so a bit worrying

[John Eacott]

Dick,

Sometimes I think you are seeing issues when they aren't there. crab@ had a wink emoticon yet you've now alluded to it worrying you. There have been conflicting reports from AW139 drivers about the OEI capability of the machine, some agreeing with and some rebutting whoever you spoke to and sparked this thread.

I think we all can see that the Australian emergency services are doing more winching than used to be the case, one reason being that there are more helicopters available to be tasked and another that generally those machines are far more capable than only ten years ago.

Personally I applaud the concept, and firmly believe that operators nowadays have far better role equipment and better trained crews than was the case. Plus they have years of experience and well constructed operating guidelines than we ever knew about.

Be thankful that they stand ready to be tasked to save lives, rather than seek to limit or remove the capability based on poor briefing or poor decision making in a minority of winch ops.

[pj98321]

I have been involved in rescue hoist work for over 9 years now. On a public use single engine Huey in the US. I crew the helicopters, run the hoist and ride the cable.

We were professionally trained and have a very high standard for pilots and crew. We train twice a month. We have a 90 day recurrency for all crew and pilots.

We use the best equipment available. We also do hoist rescues at night on NVG's.

Helicopter hoisting is inherently high risk. But we feel that by conducting regular training we can keep it in the high risk high frequency category. Meaning we keep our skills sharp. There is no place here for the "B" team.

We will do hoists in life threatening situations or when the risks to ground rescue personnel are too great. Others in this thread have mentioned the same thing.

We did one yesterday with a minor injury but by ground would have taken nearly a full day over difficult terrain. In fact one rescuer was injured just getting to the victim.

We have aborted numerous missions. Some we returned at first light. Others aborted for weather that never improved.

We have had some incidents. A fouled cable and a badly damaged helicopter. But no crew has been lost.

There have been fatalities in the US. Texas lost a hoist rescue tech last year. Las Vegas lost a rescue tech and within the last 2 weeks a firefighter fell to his death that was not tethered to the aircraft properly.

[Same again]

Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed. There is far more possibility of an incident attempting to land in an unsuitable area than a winch rescue by a well-trained crew who are aware of the consequences of an engine failure .

The OEI (and I have only heard of one engine failure in a 139) capability of the 139 is good provided that the pilot has some idea of what will happen OEI. The result will be either no effect and the winch can be completed OEI, a flyaway that will involve some height loss or a committed landing to whatever lies beneath the helicopter. These can be calculated fairly accurately using environmental considerations, the PI figure, the Perf Data drop down height loss and pilot experience.

Crew judgement on the options of landing vs winching, a good pre-winch briefing of crew actions during an engine failure and good situational awareness makes for as safe a winch as possible.

Of course there is no substitute for experience and constant training. Our operation completes 2 hours training per crew every day and this usually involves winching day and night to decks, cliffs, wets or drums. OEI hover can be replicated well in the 139 simulator and we make good use of it as part of 6 monthly OPC training.

[jimf671]

Are there any territories where SAR Technical Crew (as UK CAA call them) is a licensed aviation trade?

What are the pros and cons of such an approach?

[[email protected]]

Lots of hot air here as usual from the misinformed. Way to go, making friends in the playground...............:rolleyes:

[Same again]

Just stating a fact Crab.

[roscoe1]

Why would anyone ever land in an "unsuitable" area. Maybe everyone does not warrant a helicopter ride......

[[email protected]]

Just stating a fact Crab. or just being a c**k.

[Same again]

Maybe everyone does not warrant a helicopter ride......

Of course not all warrant being air-lifted. But we are often the first on scene to a casualty and neither I nor our paramedics have the gift of telepathy or x-ray vision.

If we are called to assist a casualty in a spot without an obvious landing site the choice is: do we take vaulable time to find somewhere to land and leave the paramedic to struggle to reach them by foot or do we stay at a safe height and winch?

If we have an incident whilst winching then I will be asked why I did not find somewhere suitable to land. If we have an incident trying to land in a hostile area then I will be asked why I did not winch. The casualty might have severe internal injuries - or they might have a dislocated thumb. We do not know.

I am paid to do whatever I can to rescue or deliver medical assistance to a survivor in whatever way we, as a crew, decide. In as safe a way as possible.

[Same again]

or just being a c**k.

Crab you have spent years on Rotorheads being just that so I suppose you would know.

[[email protected]]

Well, if you are typical of the brave new world of UK SAR then I am very happy not to be part of it and rather pity the people you work with - this was a reasonable thread with a good flow of information before you waded in with your opening insult.

[Same again]

I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment. Today that is commenting as an experienced and current SAR 139 pilot.

There are comments on the lack of 139 EOI hover performance here by people have never been in a 139 - or flown SAR. I do not comment to gain popularity points.

I am sure that you have been waiting for the brave new world of UK SAR to fall apart but we are doing just fine without you Crab.

[Stanwell]

Hold on for a moment, will you, chaps?
I'll just dash down the road to get a packet of crisps, a bottle of beer and sort my cushions out.

How did humanity cope before winching became to be seen as a twice-weekly necessity, such as it seems to be around my way?
Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.

Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting.

[[email protected]]

I do not comment here very often and only if I have something relevant to say on a subject of which I am qualified to comment. And if you had done just that it would have been constructive and useful to the thread.

instead you came across as the big FIGJAM - which is rather pathetic since there were comments from others (not just me) who were doing winching while you were still dreaming of being a SAR pilot.

I am well aware the UKSAR world is doing fine without me - how many friends do you think I have in it and where do you think I found the info on winching in the 139?

[Fareastdriver]

Winching operations with a Bristol Sycamore - I'm told that was interesting.

Apparently the technique when rescuing a pilot in the Mediterranean was for the pilot to operate the winch and lower the winchman using the mirror. The winchman then attached the survivor to the strop and the pilot winched him up and the survivor climbed in the back.
They then proceeded to base where the survivor was off loaded, the Sycamore was flown back to the crewman, who was sunning himself in the dinghy, he was winched up by the pilot and they all went home.

I had time on the Sycamore but fortunately not winching.

[Same again]

Internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?
Right, well get that diagnosis sorted before you put other people's lives at risk, please.A CASA course in telepathy perhaps?

If the casualty was one of your children would you want a rescue helicopter to fly around in circles for a hour waiting for an ambulance to get there to diagnose life-threatening internal injuries or a dislocated thumb?

We don't put our lives at risk. We make informed, professional decisions and are paid to do the job.

[[email protected]]

Except that, as you well know, in a majority of rescues in the UK, there already is someone on the ground with the casualty - MRT, ambulance paramedic, first responder, coastguard etc etc so you already know from talking to those on airwave/ch 0 on scene what you are facing.

You often get launched with scant information but this is usually quickly updated en route and the main reason you have been tasked is because a winch-equipped helicopter is the best way of extracting the casualty quickly and getting them to primary medical care.

On the occasions when you are first on scene then winching is often the most expeditious way to get the winchman/paramedic to the casualty in order to make an assessment on the injuries and urgency.

[Dick Smith]

In my days as an active bush walker in the NSW Blue Mountains every injured person was carried out by volunteers of the Federation of Bushwalking Clubs S&R section.

Now days virtually every person is lifted out by helicopter.

This is far better as long as affordable and doesn't result in unnecessary accidents and fatalities .

I love helicopters but they often result in extra risk than being on the ground.

When the person about to be winched is given no choice ( when there is a safer alternative ) it's important that they are not exposed to unnecessary risk.

[[email protected]]

Although I suspect that most people, given the choice between a short helicopter ride and a long carry out (when they need to go to hospital) would probably take the helo every time. Especially given the number of poisonous things in the bush!

Most winching iterations are conducted perfectly safely - providing the crew are properly trained and practiced.

[Vie sans frontieres]

We don't put our lives at risk.

Maybe not from your seat mate.

[hihover]

Dick,

After all the dust settles on a rescue, of course there is discussion about how it could have been improved or modified. Safety, CRM, achievement or non-achievement of the aim will all be covered during the debrief and modifications made if/where required. 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful gift.

Unfortunately, the gift is not given until after the rescue. During the rescue you must rely on your training and your previous gifts of 20-20. No-one goes into a rescue with the intention of increasing risk.

[Fareastdriver]

Someone might REALLY need your helicopter tomorrow.

[Dick Smith]

Crab. The important word is "most ".in the last line of your post.

As long as there is no pressure to winch when there are safer ways to do the retrieval I am happy.

[Same again]

Maybe not from your seat mate.

Well if you feel that the risk is not worth the gain then I hope you tell whoever is in the front seat and you head off home for a debrief. I didn't say that there is no risk, just that it is a considered one. I couldn't do the job of a winchman and their bravery and willingness to do what they do to help people in need is humbling.

[[email protected]]

I couldn't do the job of a winchman and their bravery and willingness to do what they do to help people in need is humbling. fully agree with that sentiment:ok:

[krypton_john]

Northland Rescue is a bit of an outlier in NZ, operating a fleet of S76A.

They winch over land and sea, night and day. This one on the weekend:

Injured skipper hauled to safety in dramatic chopper rescue off North Cape - National - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11693939)

[krypton_john]

Didn't happen.

Witness claims chopper winch 'drops' doctor - Queenstown News (http://www.scene.co.nz/rescue-drama/295254a1.page)

Paul Taylor15 Dec 2011

Rescuers claim a doctor was dropped when a helicopter winch failed during an operation to save an injured hunter.

Members of the Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue team say the medic was a few metres above the ground when the cable on the winch snapped. Any higher and he could have been killed, they say.

Their version of events contradicts the official report submitted to authorities.

Lakes District Air Rescue Trust (LDART) – the body which organises Queenstown’s helicopter rescues – has submitted reports stating the doctor was on the ground at the time and the winch mechanism jammed rather than snapped.

The Civil Aviation Authority is investigating the incident, which occurred during a dramatic night-time search and rescue operation at Sawyer’s Creek, near Skippers Canyon.

It has deemed the incident “critical” due to the potential injury to the doctor, who was not hurt.

Senior rescuer Rupert Gardiner, 31, says: “He was a couple of metres above the ground. He was being lowered back down because he had got caught up in the trees.

“The cable snapped, completely.”
“The winch failed and he fell probably two metres down to the ground.

“We weren’t right underneath but we were quite close.

“It was unnerving, absolutely, seeing him come down. I didn’t feel like getting on a winch after that.”

Queenstown Alpine Cliff Rescue senior trainer Chris Prudden, who didn’t attend, adds: “I was told there was a complete failure, the cable let go and he fell to the ground.

“The other statement I heard was that if he was higher he would have been dead.”

The rescue operation was launched to save a Christchurch hunter with life-threatening injuries.

The 30-year-old had suf***fered a compound fracture of the left femur falling from a waterfall – which means the broken bone had pierced through the skin.

His friend raised the alarm and a Southern Lakes Heli*copters Squirrel air*craft, piloted by experienced rescue pilot Richard ‘Hannibal’ Hayes, flew in from Te Anau.

The Te Anau chopper – the nearest with a winch covering the Queenstown area – arrived on scene, near Crystal Hut about 3km from Skippers Bridge, at midnight on October 23.

It flew back to its Te Anau base after the winch failed to fit a replacement and returned about an hour later to extract the casualty and doctor from the difficult terrain.

LDART has submitted reports to the CAA, the Department of Labour and the Accident Compensation Corporation.

Tony Hill, LDART executive secretary, says: “It is quite clear in the report, which the doctor completed, that he didn’t drop to the ground.

“They had lowered him back to the ground so they could move the helicopter more directly above to stop the pendulum effect.

“The next thing the winch malfunctioned so they weren’t able to pull them back up. At this stage they were on the ground.

“I’m totally comfortable with the comments that the cable didn’t snap and the doctor didn’t fall.

“The cable did not snap. It won’t snap – it’s bloody thick. That’s absolutely in**correct. The winch mech*anism failed.

“I wasn’t there and I’m only telling you what has gone to Government. So if he wants to dispute that he’ll have to take it up with the doctor.

“For his own privacy he has asked not to be named.”

Hill says Hayes, who was unavailable for comment, is the most qualified rescue pilot in New Zealand with 40 years’ experience and was supported by an experienced winch man.

Lloyd Matheson, Southern Lakes operations manager, says: “I’m not in a position to make any comment to any media if there is an official investigation underway.

“I’ll leave it to the CAA to deal with.”

The winch has been taken to Auckland for tests.

The casualty, stabilised by the doctor and given morphine for pain, eventually arrived at Southland Hospital at 5am the next morning – 10 hours after the fall. He’s believed to have undergone surgery and is recovering well.

Three members of the Queenstown-based Alpine Cliff Rescue team assisted in the operation.

[[email protected]]

Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.

There are all sorts of failures that can occur in the mechanism including jamming and runaway out (if the braking fails) as well as electrical control issues.

The winch cable certainly shouldn't snap unless it has been seriously overstressed - although a short fall with an abrupt deceleration can shock load it. This is why the winchman should be winched upwards from the cabin before then being winched out to the casualty (rather than dropping off the doorstep or sill) and it tests the integrity of the cable and harness before committing the winchman to a vertical descent.

Winching through trees is tricky at the best of times but more so at night - however, given the nature of the injury, it seems clear this was the best course of action.

[John Eacott]

Somewhat conflicting reports so it will be interesting to see what the real story is when the winch has been examined.

Did you spot the date of the article?

15th December 2011 :ok:

[[email protected]]

Sorry John, I didn't note that - are there any links to the outcome of any investigation?

I can't find it on the NZ CAA website and accident/incident register.

[krypton_john]

It's a CAA so it really could be that slow!

[SuperF]

crab, it didn't snap. what did someone say about trusting witnesses versions of events a few days ago. even "professionals" can get the story totally wrong. An AD or safety note or something came out from CAA. i think the winch seized, or something.

Funny that the doctor said he didn't drop, but the witnesses are certain about what they saw....:ugh:

[John Eacott]

The incident was on the 23rd October 2011 at midnight, but there seems no history of a report or an investigation: CAA Occurrence briefs - Accidents in 2011 (https://www.caa.govt.nz/Script/Accident_List.asp?Year=2011)

There doesn't seem to be any Incident report, I realise the link is to accidents.

Reading between the lines, if the cable jammed and was then cut with the doctor on the ground, uninformed and alarmist bystanders could then assume that the 'cable on the winch snapped'. Probably destined to be one of life's mysteries, unless someone from Te Anau is able to enlighten us!

[John Eacott]

shame, it seems to have disappeared, people might have learnt from what went wrong

My point was that there isn't a report; the link was to second guess those who would ask for one!

[RVDT]

Back to the original thread - Catch 22.

The reason there is more winching done is that the size of the aircraft has increased to the point where there is more at risk trying to land or it physically can't land due to its size and downwash. :ugh:

[9Aplus]

Please see this / high risk level, job done....

Helicopter pilot performs jaw-dropping rescue in the Carpathian Mountains | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3760920/Private-helicopter-pilot-performs-jaw-dropping-rescue-stranded-tourist-2000m-Carpathian-Mountains-Romania.h)

[Julianburn]

shame, it seems to have disappeared, people might have learnt from what went wrong
From memory the cable ran off the drum due to incorrect tolerances set after a cable change. Most winch's generally will stop " full out " with 4-5 wraps on the drum, the cable will be secured to the drum with a small non load bearing grub screw.
From what I've heard this one, due to incorrect settings just kept on paying out until it came off.

[[email protected]]

9Aplus - that report is typical Daily Mail - a 'private helicopter pilot' who just happens to have access to a winch and crew equipped 365. What they appear to mean is that he was not 'state-employed'.

However, a good display of mountain flying skills and a well completed rescue - at least you don't have to worry about TR strikes in a 365.:ok:

[nowherespecial]

I wonder how SMURD feel about this very public failure to deal with the incident? Or are their ac not winch equipped ie a standard Air Ambulance style ac?

[John Eacott]

Dick's original concerns may be reflected in this outcome from a fatal winch accident 3 years ago:

Death fall lawsuit: Ambulance Victoria 'failed' in rescue after hunting mishap near Lake Eildon (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/death-fall-lawsuit-ambulance-victoria-failed-in-rescue-after-hunting-mishap-near-lake-eildon/news-story/fea7660a2255ffa051020f6b24e4265e)

THE wife of an injured hunter who fell to his death while being winched to an air ambulance is suing Ambulance Victoria for damages.

Robert Davis plunged 30m to his death after passing out and slipping from the harness while being rescued after a mishap on a hunting trip.

Fellow hunters called for help after the 65-year-old lost his footing and broke his ankle while walking in dense bush at Macs Cove, near Lake Eildon in August 2013.

An Australian Transport Safety Bureau report last year found the Sydney man was winched using an unsuitable “rescue strop”, which straps around a person’s torso.

As he reached the helicopter, he became “limp and unresponsive” and was “making no apparent attempt to hold on” as he slipped from the strop.

A paramedic tried desperately to grab his shoulder and arm, but he fell out and crashed to his death.

“The patient probably lost consciousness due to the compressive nature of the rescue strop around their chest,” the report said.

Mr Davis’s wife, Emi, says Ambulance Victoria failed in its duty of care to winch and treat her husband with reasonable skill, care and diligence.

In a writ lodged in the Supreme Court, she claims AV’s negligence included failing to: select an adequate extraction method; adequately assess the risk of using the harness; use a suitable harness; have appropriate equipment available; adequately assess Mr Davis’s condition, health and weight and their effect on winching him in the harness; and lower him when the winch was affected by the tree canopy.

Ms Davis, 62, says she was a dependant of Mr Davis, who, at the time of his death, worked part-time for Tradelink and ran his own business selling plumbing supplies.

The ATSB noted a rescue strop could harm even a healthy person’s heart and lung capacity. Mr Davis weighed 138kg and suffered from medical conditions, including chronic heart failure.

AV has since introduced a new seat-style harness and more education and training.

The ATSB said its findings were not designed to apportion blame.

Lawyer Barrie Woollacott of Slater & Gordon said the Davis family was still coming to terms with their loss.

“The Davis family hopes lessons can be learned from Robert’s untimely death to prevent any other family having to endure such grief,” Mr Woollacott said.

[email protected]

Was this winch necessary? (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/525567-winch-necessary.html)

Ambulance Victoria Winching accident (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/522611-ambulance-victoria-winching-accident.html)

[[email protected]]

And, as ever, the injured parties (or relatives of) concede no portion of responsibility for the deceased being 138Kgs with a litany of medical problems and going out hunting in that condition.

Frankly, winching him out was the only option since the terrain doesn't sound that good and carrying 138kgs cross country on a stretcher would have been more hazardous to the rescuers.

They could, of course, have chosen not to winch him and let nature take its course............and then they would have been sued for not rescuing him.

[Martin_Baker]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3760920/Private-helicopter-pilot-performs-jaw-dropping-rescue-stranded-tourist-2000m-Carpathian-Mountains-Romania.html

I subscribe to HeliOps magazine on facebook and they linked to this story.

[nowherespecial]

MB, nice attempt to deflect that you are a DM reader :)

9APlus posted it last night.

[Martin_Baker]

MB, nice attempt to deflect that you are a DM reader :)

9APlus posted it last night.

NS, sorry about the double post. I should have scrolled further back up the page. Lol definitely not a DM reader. Didn't know it existed til I read this article.

[Thewasp]

crab, it didn't snap. what did someone say about trusting witnesses versions of events a few days ago. even "professionals" can get the story totally wrong. An AD or safety note or something came out from CAA. i think the winch seized, or something.

Funny that the doctor said he didn't drop, but the witnesses are certain about what they saw....:ugh:

I know an engineer who knows a bit about it. Nothing wrong with the winch . More likely that the red paint on the last couple of metres was ignored/ not spotted