NVQ's - anyone ever get one?

[Zulu]

Yeah, they were a great tax 'break', and I'm just about to bin my 'coursebook'.
Did anyone ever complete the course, and get the qualification? What was it anyway?!

[A Very Civil Pilot]

I think a manager at Virgin got the level 5 some years ago.

Apart from a registration number, I never heard anything from the organisation running NVQ, despite calls and letters enquiring what it had to offer.Got me my 23% discount however.

[Boeing Freak]

I think most people simply took the 23% discount and ran. I know I did!

Unfortunately, due to all the plonkers doing PPLs with no intention of a professional career and claiming tax relief the scheme was abandoned. The flying schools are just as much to blame as the students.

So there

BF



[This message has been edited by Boeing Freak (edited 05 March 2001).]

[landedoutagain]

i did hear that maybe up to four people had got their NVQ's - but out of the thousands who were claiming tax relief - since the percentage of successful applicants was so low (well below 1%!) they binned it, probably cause they realised what was going on.

[40 yearflyer]

NVQ was a very strange set up. On the one hand it gave a very worthwhile tax break to those paying every penny towards a career best suited to their personality and talents. On the other hand, to satisfy the Government agency or whatever that the scheme was worthy of a tax refund it had to follow the scheme established for apprentices or even non apprentices working on a shop floor in an engineering factory.This assumed that those responsible for the training of the 'Wannabees'on the factory floor had no idea how to train or instruct. Thus, in an environment where training and testing is of the highest standard - i.e. flying training - suddenly to qualify for the tax break a system best suited to apprentice training was superimposed. The results were hilarous and I kept pinching myself that I was not living in 'cloud cuckoo land' Under the scheme a student was supposed to 'drive' his own instruction. He could ,in theory walk up to an assessor in the corridor and say 'I am ready to be tested on the VOR'.'Get lost' was the answer- 'I will test you in the next progress test'. As a result only lip service was paid to the scheme and it became a paper exercise of meaningless signatures for the various elements. The crunch came in persuading the 'Airlines' to send their people on 'Assessor courses' etc so that they could test the final 2 elements 'f' and 'g'in Customer Care and Flight Safety - I think. Few did as there was no commercial advantage to to do so. Thus the 4 who achieved the Air Transport multi crew NVG were either very persuasive or very determined. What did they get? Well, the equivalent to a degree, supposedly recognisably throughout the land should they change their job and move away from flying. I say bring it back but let us- the trainers determine how the assessment and awarding is conducted - not some model based on an engineering factory. Wannabees deserve some tax breaks - write to your MP - NOW

[HomerSimpson]

Well said 40 YearFlier! I agree. The only problem with the NVQ is that people who claimed it were only interested in reducing their PPL or monthly jolly around the local scenery. Whereas those who needed the tax break, eventually got shafted when the Inland Revenue realised what was going on. I know of some cases where those who were over 30 and tried that route have had to pay back the tax to the revenue. I guess there are still loads of cases that slipped through the net.

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Duff, Duff, that Wonderful stuff. Ummmmm Doughnuts

[pjdj777]

I got really annoyed with all of that NVQ stuff - before I left the civil service I was doing an NVQ level 3, which I stopped because I left the job and started training as a pilot.

I had every intention of getting the NVQ qualification, before I had my first lesson I put together a business plan with timescales and evidence - just the same as I had to for the Level 3, and nobody was interested, to my horror I saw a number of wealthy businessmen doing their PPLs and claiming NVQ, with no intention of getting the qualification at the end of it, they were just taking the discount!!!!!

When I got the Frozen ATPL I was looking at getting at least a partial certificate (there was no way I was going to get the full NVQ before the August deadline), but nobody was available to evaluate me, but a partial cert would be better than nothing.

Yes the schools are partly to blame for the fiasco - but who can blame them, they're businesses and need anything that can help them get more students in - certainly NVQ enabled me to train, and many others I suspect - if I was running a business with the kind of margins I'd have not been too fussy about who gets NVQ tax relief either.

Likewise, who can blame people for taking advantage of the discount? If I was one of those wealthy businessment I'd have done the same.

The rules were too slack - in my opinion tax relief should only have been awarded to people who had:

obtained a class one medical

put together a business case for their professional qualification

made a commitment to obtaining the qualification; and

only available on flying that counted towards a professional qualification (not too difficult to satisfy this one I suppose).

NVQ is a good thing, I've worked on a number of projects within IT and Local Government where NVQ has given staff something to strive for and achieve. It's a shame we can't have the same thing within aviation.

[little red train]

The NVQ was a badly guided farce in my View.

The Virgin captin must have tryed it for a Joke.

What is the reason for having a "Higher National Degree" in "Flying Stuff" The CORRECT name for the qualification saught is an ATPL or CPL/IR, these are the qualifications required to get a job flying for reward. Is the HND in "Flying stuff" recognised by ICAO, CAA, JAA? No! I've got a HND in Welding and having just finished the JAA ATPL(A) Groundschool, I conclude flying planes is harder than welding. but a HND would not appear to make the difference clear. All the work required for the Commercial licence was then duplicated in paperwork (and in more tedious detail) in the daft NVQ manual.

Cant we simply conclude the ATPL or CPL is a valid qualification. There sole use is to allow a pilot to gain reward for flying. FTO's were providing the NVQ training, so it could be argued by no feat of the imagination that they would be just as capable of being regarded as "Training colleges" and the "NVQ" deducted at source on ALL comercial training... no exsessive and usless paperwork, recognition of the Commercail Licenses for what they are, and a stop to PPL's leaching the system.

Just my take, but then I shouldn't give a s**t I took the 23% ran, and use the NVQ book as a doorstop :)

[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 06 March 2001).]

[TooHotToFly]

In my opinion, the most insdisputable thing that could be qualified as training for a career in the airlines was applying for your commercial licence. And was this elegible for NVQ - No.

[rolling circle]

According to the records of the ATA, the organisation that sponsored the Level 5 NVQ in Piloting Transport Aircraft, those who claimed Vocational Tax Relief (VTR) for the PPL were outnumbered, by a factor of around 30:1, by those who claimed VTR for professional licence courses and did not, subsequently, complete their portfolio of evidence. Thus, the real 'bad guys' in the whole, sorry NVQ saga were the likes of 'Boeing Freak and little red train' who, by their own admission, took the 23% discount and ran. It is due solely to the self-centred and thoughtless attitude of such people that Wannabes are now finding it so difficult to fund their training.

For the record, the 'Virgin Captain', still the only person to complete the NVQ, decided that he wished to gain a masters degree in airline management. Since he had not attended university and had not, therefore, obtained the necessary first degree, he completed the NVQ in order to gain the entry qualification to the masters course (A level 5 NVQ is, of course, equivalent to a first degree). I am pleased to report that said Captain is within an inch of gaining his MA and so, despite the cynical and selfish attitude of most of those who, like Boeing Freak and little red train, registered, took the money and ran, the NVQ did achieve something.

Those who registered for the NVQ and failed, subsequently, to complete their portfolio of evidence should be in no doubt that they are held in the deepest contempt by the many who gave willingly and voluntarily of their time to set the whole thing up, not to mention those who have now been disadvantaged by their arrant selfishness.

[The Nr Fairy]

So what legal ways are there to reduce costs ? I'm waiting for my company to go public on the stock market, which would give me all the money I need for the last ( expensive ) bit of my CPL(H) but any way to reduce the expense would be most appreciated.

There was a thread on this subject some time ago, if I find it I'll post it.

[little red train]

Spoke to some bean counting friends of mine.

If your self employed you can off-set training costs (All of It) against income tax, for a maximum of three years,

ie pay for training 01/01/01 can reduce income tax payments until 01/01/03.

This is only applicable if you are self employed. and do all the tax stuff yourself.

I'm making it my personal mission to screw the goverment out of as much tax as I possibly can (Leagally :)), I have recived no goverment help for all my training, so they can think again If I'm gonna pay for Prince William to go and look at pretty pictures at Saint Andrews.

Rolling Circle, Your points are valid, I suppose I was a bit of a bad apple in the bunch, I'm not sure If you've seen the NVQ logbook, but In an attached Letter, I said it was not required to fill out the NVQ logbook, only If i actually wanted a HND. The Timescale I was (and still am) looking at has put me outside the possiblity of geting an HND anymore.

The triviality of the requiremets is astonashing. randomly picked a unit:-

Unit 4A

"Check and operate radar and radio aids and carry out radiotelephonic communicatuions"

A4.1 Check and operate radar and radio aids

Ground D/F

boxes to be filled:
Assesment Method
Evidence ref.
Date
A/C Type
A/C Reg
Assessor's Signature

repeat for ADF, ILS, VOR, Decca(!!!), Doppler, DME, Wx Radar, GPWS, VLF Nav systems, Ground radar, SSR Transponder, INS system

A futher pages of long hand to be completed by assesor as to each question asked, response, improvments reqired.

now onto unit 4.2

It would be easy to spend 5 times longer filling paper work than actually learning to fly.

But my key point is: what the he|| is the Comercial licence for?

the HND is all fine and dandy, but there is little difference between the requirements for that than the actuall ATPL. If the bloody goverment woke up and realised that a commercail licence is the key to a profession, and not a mound of paperwork the better.

No I didn't fill in the paper work, I took the money and spoilt the system, but I still feel the system was a farce it badly guided and mis-directed, the commercail licences should be looked upon as the qualification not an administrative bolt-on. I took advantage of It, I'm going for my ATPL and thats is my primary aim.


[This message has been edited by little red train (edited 07 March 2001).]

[Mister Geezer]

Mmmm it is a farce and I remember many moons ago PPLs filling in the Inland Revenue paperwork after their flight in order to cut the cost of their jolly down, which is not right!

When I heard that they were closing the scheme a few years ago I rushed to register before the registration deadline. Now sadly I have missed the boat completely so the registration fees are gone and lost.

Yes it would be good if NVQ was re-introduced, however I can understand why they stopped the system!

MG

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It's a limited RAS as you approach my dark area.......

[This message has been edited by Mister Geezer (edited 07 March 2001).]