Air to air nuclear weapons

[andytug]

On 19th July 1957 the world's only air to air nuclear missile test took place.
An anniversary to remember: The world's only air-to-air nuke was fired on 19 July, 1957 ? The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/07/20/an_anniversary_to_remember_the_worlds_only_airtoair_nuke_was _fired_on_19_july_1957/)

[andytug]

Seems they thought nuclear was the answer to everything back then!

[sandiego89]

Indeed, nothing quite says cold war like unguided short range nuclear weapons such as the Genie and the Davy Crockett....

[Lonewolf_50]

Having seen some nuke tipped SAMs one day I (cold war days, when I was young and spry) recall being for a moment glad that I didn't fly fighters. I figured that if we had them, our counterparts on the Sov ships had them.

[ICM]

Could the trail aircraft in the video be a B-57 Canberra, by any chance?

[andytug]

Could the trail aircraft in the video be a B-57 Canberra, by any chance?
Replies on theregister suggest it's a Martin B-57 which is an American - made Canberra?

[ICM]

Andy: Quite correct.

[PrivtPilotRadarTech]

Seems they thought nuclear was the answer to everything back then!

Yep. My dad was a physicist and nuclear engineer. In the 50's we lived in Idaho Falls, near the Idaho National Laboratory where he worked on nuclear reactor powered turbine engines for bombers. The compressor stage fed compressed air into the reactor where it was heated, then it exited thru the hot turbine stage. The project was cancelled, and later in life he commented that it spewed radiation into the atmosphere.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Nuclear_Propulsion

[Lima Juliet]

If you want to go nuclear 'whacky projects' then look no further than General Atomics (yes the same people that make Predator/Reaper) and their Project ORION.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l2QopJbDBs

[onetrack]

Starfish Prime was the nuke to beat them all. The results were vastly different to what had been calculated by the boffins - and by vastly different, I mean an EMP of substantial magnitude.
Fortunately, the idea of ever-increasing numbers of nuke-testings in space has been canned, and for good reasons.

[Finningley Boy]

There was a nuclear warheaded missile which the Lightning might have carried, called Red Dean.

FB

[MAINJAFAD]

Red Dean wasn't nuclear tipped and wouldn't have been carried by a Lightning. it was an large Vickers build active radar homing missile for the thin wing 'Supersonic' Javelin. Both the missile and the aircraft were cancelled in 1955/56. The best description of its configuration would be a Red Top on Steroids. The Warhead weight of it was 100 lb HE.The weight of the smallest atomic warheads in development for UK defensive missiles was between 4 and 6 times that.

[NutLoose]

Surely any weapon dropped from an aircraft that isn't a ground burst, is Air to Air

[Martin the Martian]

I have seen somewhere (possibly Derek Wood's Project Cancelled) a line drawing of a Genie-equipped Lightning, with the caption that it was schemed under project number something-or-other.

[John Eacott]

Surely any weapon dropped from an aircraft that isn't a ground burst, is Air to Air

The 600lb bomb was neither :p

[Mick Stability]

At the time, the physicists and engineers were able to offer a nuclear solution to any question asked of them.

Just as the NDB offered a catch-all solution to the submarine threat, the air to air N option would stop any conceivable red threat from over the pole.

At a time when there was conceived to be a real threat from a perceived bomber imbalance, the air to air N option was a sensible counter force.

We can't always review the decisions of the past throught the spectacles we wear today.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Just as the NDB offered a catch-all solution to the submarine threat
I know Non-Directional Beacons have been around since the 1940s or even earlier, but I'd have thought coastal- and night-effect would've reduced their anti-sub capabilities... :)

(PS I am old enough to remember Westland Wasps)

[WET]

I know Non-Directional Beacons have been around since the 1940s or even earlier, but I'd have thought coastal- and night-effect would've reduced their anti-sub capabilities... :)

(PS I am old enough to remember Westland Wasps)
I think the idea is to foul the props by dropping the beacon into them :)

[Davef68]

I have seen somewhere (possibly Derek Wood's Project Cancelled) a line drawing of a Genie-equipped Lightning, with the caption that it was schemed under project number something-or-other.

There was a photo (or photos) in Tim McLelland's Lightning book of a trial Genie installation on a Lightning. The missile was fitted to a recess in the belly.

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Convair_F-106A_with_missile_layout,_including_four_AIM-4_Falcons_and_one_AIR-2_Genie_060928-F-1234S-036.jpg

[RAFEngO74to09]

http://www.williammaloney.com/aviation/AirMobilityCommandMuseum/OtherExhibits/images/18DouglasAir2GenieRocket.jpg

[RAFEngO74to09]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Convair_F-106A_Delta_Dart_1.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Davef68, the Lightning had a belly? Any recess at the expense off fuel?

[Pontius Navigator]

At a time when there was conceived to be a real threat from a perceived bomber imbalance, the air to air N option was a sensible counter force.

We can't always review the decisions of the past throught the spectacles we wear today.
At the time they probably committed the sin of assuming the Russians would use the same tactics. The US plan was for a 9-ship cell of B29 with 4 weapons carriers, decoys and counter measures. A single NAA missile would be the perfect counter. If the Russians refused to use 9-ship cells then the ploy would fail :)

Then came the B47.

[ORAC]

At the time they probably committed the sin of assuming the Russians would use the same tactics. And we did differently? Throughout my career in AD we had F4/F3 CAPing at 15K looking low with PD/FMICW looking for low fast bombers because that was what our Jags/Buccs/GR1s intended to do. But when the first USAF general looked around a Backfire and asked why there was no TFR he was told their intended tactic was to ingress at 50K plus supersonic under heavy EW to launch ASM at max range.

They'd have gone straight over the top unseen.....

[sandiego89]

Wow RAFE, that photograph of the California ANG F-106 launching the Genie is superb!

[Davef68]

PN, been a few years since I saw the picture, but it was a recess in the forward end of the belly tank. Can't remember if it had the F6 larger belly tank or not.

[Willard Whyte]

Seems they thought nuclear was the answer to everything back then!

Not just in warfare...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

The Atomic Automobile (https://www.damninteresting.com/the-atomic-automobile/)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Ford_Nucleon.jpg

And with optional tail fins. Well, it was the 50s!

https://damn-damninterestingc.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/nucleon_blue.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

ORAC, the joke in the V-Force was always that ADEX rules were designed to give you targets not to actually get through. I remember King Pin exercises in mid-60s with mass raid of about 500 against 300 fighters (might have been 200). It was unrealistic for us as we were planning low level but seemingly matched the AD capability and threat.

[OK465]

You know, the Voodoo was nuke armed, but had something lesser known that was nearly as insidious.

I flew T-33 target for the Niagara Falls ANG F-101s in 1971 while waiting for my F-101 checkout (which I passed on and moved on to another unit for a different machine).

One cold night, after a successful intercept on my chaff dispensing T-33 over Lake Ontario, I asked the 101 guy on my wing if he'd show me what the vaunted ID light looked like.

He said, "Are you sure?"

After I (regretfully as it turned out) said "Yes", and he switched it on, it took about 30 minutes to get my night vision back. :eek:

When the Deuce was out of ammo, their plan was to ram.....I think the Voodoo could have taken out the stragglers with the light.

[TheWestCoast]

RAFEng, I cannot get enough of the California ANG F-106 picture.

[Davef68]

OK465,

Have heard similar about the CF18!

[32A]

http://www.f-101voodoo.com/photo_gallery/var/albums/Armament/CF-101_fires_Genie.jpg?m=1293698167

[OK465]

Davef,

You can tell I was being somewhat facetious, but that thing could have probably temporarily debilitated some guy in a Piper Aztec bringing in 'a couple of keys'.....although they generally come from the opposite direction from where CF-18s would be involved.

One of the Niagara one-oh-wonders got scrambled one night on something apparently uncooperative over Lake Ontario. They were given a SAGE "follow dolly" (follow ground datalink steering). They completed the intercept, turned on the light and read.....

.....MOHAWK AIRLINES

Light off, skulk away quickly.....passengers reported UFO.

[TLB]

Great pic 32A.

Capts Roger Ayotte & Pete Pellow, 425 AW (F) Sqn, William Tell 1972

[OK465]

TLB,

With a little research, I see that an RCAF 425 AW CF-101B crew (Butters/Danko) won the first ever awarded 'Top Gun' award at William Tell '72 in competition with F-102s & F-106s & other F-101s.....

.....none of which were actually equipped with a gun. :}

(admittedly the concept of shooting an arrow at an apple on someone's head pales in contrast to a weapon that could take out the entire orchard and associated surroundings :ok:)

[TLB]

OK465,

In all modesty, I must admit - that would be me. My back-seater at the time - Doug Danko - also my best friend & brother-in-law - re-mustered as pilot and unfortunately was killed in a CF-104 accident in Germany in 1977.

[OK465]

Respects to both of you.

There's a number of interesting accomplished folks on this forum, both mil & civ.