Brisbane FOG

[RodH]

I see YBBN is having fog issues again!
Lots of go-arounds and diversions.
Oh! for a Cat111B capability of ILS, aircraft and crew.
Most Airbus aircraft are Cat111B capable and I have done a few of these in Europe very comfortably.
What a money saver it would be but the detractors would argue that for the low number amount of diversions etc. the cost could not be justified. I don't think the Airlines and Pax would agree with that but I guess the bean counters will always win.

[1a sound asleep]

QF 747 ended up in OOL according to this site https://www.facebook.com/qfsecrets/

[RodH]

Yes it did QFA16.
I watched it on Flt Radar24 and listened on Live ATC.
Gold Coast airport only had taxiway parking later in the morning, utter chaos!!
Quite nice being on the other side when this is happening but I do miss the challenge and satisfactory conclusion of a low viz approach. Makes one feel like we have well and truly earned our pay that day!

[RodH]

Cant seem to edit the thread title to read " YBBN FOG "
How is that done?

[tail wheel]

You can't!! :sad:

But I can!! :E

Happy now?? :}

[RodH]

Thanks. It is good to see it is all correct .
For my information why can't I edit the title when I can edit the post?
Seems a bit odd.

[NewZealand2]

Has it made its way back to BNE yet??

[das Uber Soldat]

Was all happening this morning. Watched a tigerair scrape in ;) Next 3 arrivals went around.

Qantas 330 went around after that tiger landed, as did Virgin. Virgin immediately diverted to CG but Qantas had a 2nd attempt and got in. Shrug.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E9EnUnaoZM

[neville_nobody]

Surely the brand new runway will have CAT III capability. Or can't we afford that either.

[hotnhigh]

How long will runway 19 be a nice shiny reflective skid pan in the wet?

And if you've read the notams on brisbane lately......

RWY 01/19 SFC CONDITION CHANGED (DUE MILLING) BTN TWY A4 AND TWY A5
FROM 07 150537 TO 08 150700 EST

What the hell does "due milling" mean relative to braking coefficients on a wet run? Hello, CASA?

[Capt Fathom]

Geez Uber!
They would've had no trouble finding the runway! Just head for the noise! :E

[601]

We found it easier to get into BN when foggy when following someone who went around. The missed approach power makes big holes in the fog.

[AerocatS2A]

Yeah, follow someone else and turn your landing lights off, or so I've heard.

[Mr Approach]

I was told once that YBBN can have Cat 2 but needs electronic visibility and stop bars. Cat 3 not possible due to a too large Qantas hanger near the 19 GP site. New runway is new ball game.

[thorn bird]

CAT 111, Na, not in the only third world country where you can drink the water.
Much more tax free money to be made building car parks.

[Fliegenmong]

Hmmm...the last time I remember a 747 at OOL was around 1982....and it was an empty 'SP'..."City of Gold Coast" ???

No Cookies | The Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/jumbo-jet-lands-at-gold-coast-airport-thanks-to-fog-in-brisbane/news-story/bb6ea9ee18ae0043ff8c16988154c898)

I remember it flying down the coast.....the 'SP' that is......not this one..

[Cloud Cutter]

What the hell does "due milling" mean relative to braking coefficients on a wet run? Hello, CASA?

Is that a trick question? The main purpose for milling is to remove contaminants and restore runway texture in order to avoid degraded friction - particularly when wet.

[RodH]

Tail wheel. Do you have an answer for my question below yet ?

"Thanks. It is good to see it is all correct .
For my information why can't I edit the title when I can edit my post?
Seems a bit odd."

[Fris B. Fairing]

Fliegenmong

It was 25JAN81. VH-EAA "City of Gold Coast Tweed" made a series of promotional/training flights in Qld. It arrived OOL from TSV on 25JAN81 and departed the same day for BNE. I can't recall any 747 diversions to OOL prior to yesterdays flight but I suspect there may have been one or two.

Regards

[hotnhigh]

Cloud cutter, the issue is not so much the roughed up section, but the resurfaced bits. Currently those surfaces are ungroved and it appears more akin to a skid pan.
Perhaps someone ploughing through a closed high speed taxiway may alter things.
Oh wait..... That's right, this is a rumour network.

[LeadSled]

CAT 111, Na, not in the only third world country where you can drink the water.
Much more tax free money to be made building car parks. Thorny,
With the very greatest of respect, Low Wx Minima Procedures and associated gear will be available when the airlines agree to pay in increased charges, which they won't.
Tootle

[neville_nobody]

Low Wx Minima Procedures and associated gear will be available when the airlines agree to pay in increased charges, which they won't.


Just a tad over 22 000 000 people went through BNE FY 14-15.

At 10 cents a head that's $2 200 000. Realistically you could charge $1 head and people would never know given the amount of tax/charges that is thrown upon this industry. And that would be a one off infrastructure tax for 12 months not an ongoing one.

Realistically you can fund anything in aviation relatively easily it's just all the BS politics and ideology gets in the way of sound decision making.

[porch monkey]

You mean like the extra money we already pay for the runway we can't use yet, that hasn't been built?http://cdn.pprune.org/images/infopop/icons/icon11.gif

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Bit like the ticket I've had to pay for now, for the flight I haven't had yet.

[The name is Porter]

Well, nothing like it actually. Have a think about it.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

It's the business model for the transport industry. Make the punter pay for some or all of your product now, then provide it later. The airlines know it, that's why they agreed.

[underfire]

What happened to the RNP procedures, QF used to use those in the fog.

They need the GBAS system, plain and simple.

[RodH]

The current GBAS system only allows cat 1 operations but will be able to do Cat11 and even Cat111 further down the track.
Once fully certified it will be by far the best system there is but that does seem quite a way off yet

Satellite Navigation - Ground Based Augmentation System (GBAS) (http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ato/service_units/techops/navservices/gnss/laas/)

[Capn Bloggs]

What happened to the RNP procedures, QF used to use those in the fog.

As a designer of these things, surely you realise they don't do any better that a Cat 1 ILS. How on earth is an RNP going to help in fog?

[AQIS Boigu]

If airports in India and Africa have LVO you really gotta wonder - Australia is a 3rd world country in regards to aviation infrastructure (barely any LVO, 45m runways and no taxi edge lights such as in Perth).

Fog diversions due to the lack of LVO is like "Guns in America" - it comes up every time there is a mass shooting and nothing gets done anyway.

[galaxy flyer]

How was the weather at Brisbane West, aka Toowoomba?

GF

[C441]

If airports in India and Africa have LVO you really gotta wonder...

In the dozens of times I've flown over India I reckon the number of times I've seen vis in greater than, say, 5km in Hydrabad, Chennai, Mumbai & Delhi combined, would still be less than the number of times I've seen less than 800m in Brisbane, Melbourne or Sydney individually. Without Low Vis capable approaches, Indian aviation would grind to a halt for more days of the year than Australian airports are almost "cavok".

It's an economic argument. Will the cost of installation and maintenance of a Cat III system outweigh the cost of possibly less than 10 days per year of disruption due to low vis?

It will be interesting to see if the rumoured introduction of a LHR/Europe direct Perth operation by Qantas on the 789 will be preceded by the installation of a Cat III ILS in Perth. Carrying additional fuel for a diversion to Kalgoorlie over 16 or 18 hours would soon add up if the Alternate Criteria remains based on Cat I.

[BuzzBox]

It will be interesting to see if the rumoured introduction of a LHR/Europe direct Perth operation by Qantas on the 789 will be preceded by the installation of a Cat III ILS in Perth.

Works to upgrade Perth to Cat III are currently underway and due to be completed by May 2017:

https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/sup/a16-h17.pdf

[Keg]

CAT III for PER scheduled to be installed in mid to late 2017 I think.

Oops. There you go. 'Two in together'. Mid 2017 if it runs on time.

[BuzzBox]

Just curious, but what is QF's fuel policy when operating to an airport that's forecast to require LVO? Where I work, we would need an alternate. In the case of PER, that would normally be ADL, so while the availability of a Cat III approach will reduce the number of diversions, it doesn't actually help when it comes to payload capability.


Carrying additional fuel for a diversion to Kalgoorlie over 16 or 18 hours would soon add up if the Alternate Criteria remains based on Cat I.

I suspect they'd need to do a shedload of upgrades at Kal to make it suitable for use as an international alternate!

[Keg]

QF need an alternate at airports with LVO. The alternate criteria may be a bit lower than at a non LVO airport but not low enough to mitigate the need for an alternate.

[megle2]

Galaxy, YBWW Welcamp was cavok

[C441]

In the 767 days we would ideally carry Kalgoorlie or Learmonth or if necessary ADL as an alternate for Perth when operating from HKG, SIN or NRT. As far as I know that's still the case for A330 and would probably be the case for a 789.

[BuzzBox]

I guess it depends on the airline and the approvals it has in place. At CX we can't plan to use Kalgoorlie, Learmonth or Port Hedland, mainly due to the RFF coverage. For us, Kalgoorlie is classed as 'Emergency Use Only'.

We had an A340 divert to Hedland several years ago due to unforecast fog in Perth. The local shire wasn't happy because of the lack of parking space on the apron and told us not to do it again! I'm guessing Kalgoorlie would be similar.

[Awol57]

Hedland has quite a large apron now so I suspect they would be more than happy to have you again :ok:

[Keg]

Kalgoorlie suitable as an adequate but can't be planned as an alternate. Learmonth and Adelaide are the closest alternates to Perth for the A330.

Need to get the runway and apron sorted at Karratha Awol57 so I can log in there if needed. At least I know I'd have a place to stay. :D

[Awol57]

Keg, I'll get my people onto it :ok:

I reckon our Apron would handle it but we might be a tad short on length. Always the problem!

[underfire]

The current GBAS system only allows cat 1 operations but will be able to do Cat11 and even Cat111 further down the track.
Once fully certified it will be by far the best system there is but that does seem quite a way off yet
Looking at the system parameters, it already provides CATIII specs, and several entities are using GBAS for autoland (military). Certification is not that far off.

[Snakecharma]

AWOL, from memory runway length is ok, the taxiway width is the problem, we can't get off the runway.

[Capn Bloggs]

so I can log in there if needed
Can't you use the Internet to do that? :}

I'm going to be bad at work today...

[megle2]

hey we have discussed Perth over and over, lets forget about it until the next event and then re hash again
In the mean time while Brisbane was fogged I'm told Brisbane West was clear, hasn't it got everything you need to park for a while

[RodH]

Brisbane West might be OK for Domestic operations diversions but unless things have changed International Operators can only use an airport that has Customs and Immigration so that leaves out quite a few from being able to use it.

[megle2]

RH, yep granted but what about the domestics particularly Q as they already use it for the Dash particularly if Cooly and Sunny coast are full

[Fieldmouse]

Question for Keg maybe, for an international alternate, when the pax are staying on board while the fog clears at the destination, can any suitable airport be used or is customs/immigration required anyway?

[BuzzBox]

...for an international alternate, when the pax are staying on board while the fog clears at the destination, can any suitable airport be used...?

Nope. According to S10(1) of the Air Navigation Act 1920, an aircraft arriving from "a place outside Australian territory" must land at an aerodrome designated as an international airport. Under the Act, non-compliance can lead to the imprisonment of the operator and the pilot-in-command for up to two years. The designated international airports are listed in AIP GEN 2. Brisbane West isn't one of them.

In some cases (eg Kalgoorlie, Learmonth, Alice Springs), the passengers and crew must remain onboard the aircraft and then proceed to a major international airport for clearance.

[Keg]

Nope. According to S10(1) of the Air Navigation Act 1920, an aircraft arriving from "a place outside Australian territory" must land at an aerodrome designated as an international airport. Under the Act, non-compliance can lead to the imprisonment of the operator and the pilot-in-command for up to two years. The designated international airports are listed in AIP GEN 2. Brisbane West isn't one of them.


CX has operated a freighter into BNE West on occasion. Dispensation? Or did they operate via CNS or similar? Different rules for freighters?

[waren9]

Nope. According to S10(1) of the Air Navigation Act 1920, an aircraft arriving from "a place outside Australian territory" must land at an aerodrome designated as an international airport. Under the Act, non-compliance can lead to the imprisonment of the operator and the pilot-in-command for up to two years. The designated international airports are listed in AIP GEN 2. Brisbane West isn't one of them.

air nz were in newcastle recently with no drama. i think the taf folks were a bit slow on it that morning in syd.

[BuzzBox]

CX has operated a freighter into BNE West on occasion. Dispensation? Or did they operate via CNS or similar? Different rules for freighters?

I think that was a one-off 'proving' flight to show it could be done and to garner a bit of publicity for the owners of the airport. The aircraft flew in to Wellcamp from Sydney and then departed for Hong Kong. I assume they had some kind of dispensation to depart for an international destination from a non-designated airport.

[BuzzBox]

air nz were in newcastle recently with no drama. i think the taf folks were a bit slow on it that morning in syd.

Newcastle/Williamtown is listed in the AIP as a 'Restricted Use International Airport'. Prior approval is normally required, but if the weather in Sydney has turned to poo and you've run out of options then I can't imagine anyone getting too fussed.

[coaldemon]

You can't plan Williamtown as an alternate I think you will find.

[TurningFinalRWY36]

don't think he is referring to using it as a planned alternate, if things turned bad in sydney with low fuel i think id be popping up to newcastle as well

[Derfred]

AWOL, Charma...

AWOL, from memory runway length is ok, the taxiway width is the problem, we can't get off the runway.

KGI has an Apron parking plan that includes A330 last time I looked. Doesn't mean of course that your airline allows it.

Likewise, Wellcamp can accommodate domestic 737's, but due no infrastructure (eg stairs) is not currently used as a domestic alternate for my airline.

[BuzzBox]

don't think he is referring to using it as a planned alternate

Correct. I wasn't!

[sunnySA]

Derfred
Wellcamp ... is not currently used as a domestic alternate for my airline.
Why wouldn't your airline put a set of stairs at BWW just in case? Seems a cheaper option than a more lengthy diversion?

[maggot]

Derfred

Why wouldn't your airline put a set of stairs at BWW just in case? Seems a cheaper option than a more lengthy diversion?

Contracts,support staff etc needed for it to be an 'on line' option

[Derfred]

Why wouldn't your airline put a set of stairs at BWW just in case? Seems a cheaper option than a more lengthy diversion?

Yeah, it's probably not so much the physical set of stairs but the whole deal. I'm not privvy to the quantum of $$ that is involved in contracting an airport for use as an alternate, but sometimes those $$ are so absurd that my airline does prefer a lengthy diversion.

Avalon was a stand out example - QF didn't use Avalon for many years until a deal was finally done but only at the threat of pulling JQ out completely.

[601]

I think that was a one-off 'proving' flight to show it could be done and to garner a bit of publicity for the owners of the airport

I believe that regular international freight services start in Sept.

[holdingagain]

There was a chamozzle at BN this morning with arriving aircraft about 7am local, lots of delaying vectors, a 380 MA ect ect. By the time I arrived all solved but didn't hear the cause

[-JLS-]

Looks like another morning of fun in Brisbane....quite a few bolted to the Gold Coast, QF's A330s from Singapore, Tokyo and Perth all trundling down to Sydney.....EK and SQ sitting out to the West practicing for this weekend's Indy 500.

Appears that JQ have just successfully got the Bali crowd on the deck though...

[chuboy]

Probably the fourth time this week.

Impressively Malindo got in every single time... :eek:

[Going Nowhere]

Not today.

Must've been really bad!

[RodH]

Seems a bit strange that JQ seemed to get in using Auto Land ( This was procedure was transmitted by the crew to the tower ) but others missed out?
Also QF62 from Narita cleared off to Sydney after only one approach.
Gold Coast was wide open so why go to Sydney after all the flight from Narita is not that long if there are a 3 or 4 crew compliment.
Sure it's the Capt's decision but is a bit odd methinks.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Seems a bit strange that JQ seemed to get in using Auto Land ( This was procedure was transmitted by the crew to the tower ) but others missed out?
Also QF62 from Narita cleared off to Sydney after only one approach.
Gold Coast was wide open so why go to Sydney after all the flight from Narita is not that long if there are a 3 or 4 crew compliment.
Sure it's the Capt's decision but is a bit odd methinks.
Was there sufficient parking available at YBCG? The operator may well have preferred the aircraft in YSSY, not CG. Did one of the crew have hour limitations from previous tour of duty? How about the Captains confidence in the weather? How much fuel did they have to still hold a legal alternate?

There are numerous factors that come into the decision as to where to go. Unless you were there or have the full picture it is very difficult to comprehend the unique issues that each and every crew face. Each flight is different, in a dynamic environment. They appear to have got on the ground safely, so that counts as success in my books.

SA 23/05/2017 19:30 METAR YBCG 231930Z AUTO 26005KT 9999 // NCD 15/15 Q1018 RF00.0/000.2=

SP 23/05/2017 19:23 SPECI YBCG 231923Z AUTO 27005KT 9999 // NCD 15/15 Q1018=

SA 23/05/2017 19:00- METAR YBCG 231900Z AUTO 00000KT 1700 // NCD 15/15 Q1017=

SP 23/05/2017 19:00 SPECI YBCG 231900Z AUTO 00000KT 1700 // NCD 15/15 Q1017=

SA 23/05/2017 18:30 METAR YBCG 231830Z AUTO 00000KT 3300 // NCD 15/15 Q1017 RF00.0/000.2=
SP 23/05/2017 18:30 SPECI YBCG 231830Z AUTO 00000KT 3300 // NCD 15/15 Q1017=

SA 23/05/2017 18:00 METAR YBCG 231800Z AUTO 00000KT 0800 // ////// 15/15 Q1017=

SP 23/05/2017 18:00 SPECI YBCG 231800Z AUTO 00000KT 0800 // ////// 15/15 Q1017=

SP 23/05/2017 17:49 SPECI YBCG 231749Z AUTO 00000KT 6000 // NCD 15/15 Q1017 RF00.0/000.2=

[chuboy]

Air Canada and the VA B777 were both using Gold Coast as their alternate. I believe the Qantas 747 has gone there before also. All three aircraft would be at the end of a long haul with less leeway for a long diversion. In addition there are several heavy arrivals into YBCG during the morning. So I daresay parking capacity was a factor.

Frustrating for pax of course as by the time you land in Sydney aircraft are getting into Brisbane again.

[Beer Baron]

Re: diverting to SYD instead of OOL. Often this will be a decision that will be made (or strongly advised) by Operations Control who have the "big picture", rather than the Captain. There are any number of reasons why diverting to OOL may not be appropriate for the airline/airport;

- Parking for an A330 would be limited, especially with every other man and his dog needing to divert.
- Are there enough air stairs available? (Don't think the Q-Ramp will reach an A330)
- Are there flights from USA/Canada/Middle East that might not have fuel for SYD who need OOL more urgently?
- QF do not have an engineer at OOL so if any defect, minor or otherwise, has been written up enroute there will be no one to sign it off so they may not be able to depart.
- Will they be slot restricted when attempting to return to BNE, pushing out crew operating times. SYD is a crew base but OOL is not.
- Are half the pax connecting elsewhere and would be better of connecting out of SYD to their final destination as they'll miss their BNE connections now? Then put the BNE pax on domestic services or a spare 737.

I guess I'm saying that there are bunch of considerations that the operating crew may not be aware of when planning where to divert to and the closest option may not be the best.

[morno]

I'm not familiar with all the services on offer at Wellcamp, but I'm guessing that the lack of ATC, insufficient RFFS (Probably just the town fire brigade?) and lack of customs is the reason it can't be used as an alternate for international flights?

morno

[RodH]

I do understand there are lots of sometimes valid reasons but from my personal experiences in the past Flight Operations have seemed to be more concerned about aircraft positioning rather than getting passengers to where they were supposed to be .
Also YBCG does already have A330 ops into there so stairs should not be a problem.
There are not that many flights in and out of there at that time of day but as you mention if quite a few divert there could be congestion but at the time QF diverted there was only 1 diverted to YBCG ( from memory ).
Anyway I was just curious as to why such a quick diversion and also why others were going around but JQ did an autoland !
Wellcamp cannot be used at this time as an International Flights alternate because it does not have customs and immigration and needs that to be designated as an International Alternate.
Maybe in the future but not now!

[donpizmeov]

A lot of companies do not allow autoland on a Cat 1 ILS.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Fortunately the advent of onboard wifi will soon allow crews to consult PPrune directly when working out the best place to divert, so there'll be no need to rely on Ops Control or their own knowledge, experience and grasp of the unfolding situation.

[Tankengine]

A lot of companies do not allow autoland on a Cat 1 ILS.

More to the point: the ability to autoland or not makes no difference to Cat1 minima.:hmm:

[maggot]

No fuel supply contract in west wellcamp. I suspect other services may not br in place - for qf at least.

Ool was sketch as per the metars but the taf had no requirements ... hmmm handy if you just want to use it to make a shot for not much fuel required.

Everyone seemed to get in aftr jetstar so it was improving at that point, worse earlier

[underfire]

Back at the beginning, OP asked to change title of thread.

You can do this if you can still edit the original post. When you edit a post, look at the lower right, Go Advanced button.

In this mode, one can change the title of the thread.

[Oakape]

YBCG has limited parking when all & sundry bound for BNE need to divert. Not so long ago, when holding for weather at BNE, everyone was advised that YBCG was not available to any aircraft that had not planned it as their alternate. The company struggled to get their head around that one! "Where do you want us to go?" "Cooly". "Cooly not available, we have Sydney or Rocky fuel in the tanks, where do you want us to go?" "Cooly". :ugh:

[Stationair8]

Wouldn't have happened when old Jo run QLD, next it will be blamed on global warming or bleaching of the Great Barrier Reef!

[thorn bird]

Wonder what the costs add up to for all these diversions?
Also wonder why Australia as a supposed first world country
doesn't have CAT 111 available at the primaries?
Probably more money to be made building car parks I guess.
Passenger convenience always seems to come last against
the imperative of making tax free dollars, unless of course
the tax payers stump up.

[underfire]

Whatever happened to the GBAS CAT III that ASA was working on? Last I knew, the system was capable, it was more about certification and standards...

[Falling Leaf]

I would be totally blown away if the new BNE runway was commissioned as a Cat 3B capable piece of infrastructure. I have already been told that pilot safety and technical members had to lobby BAC to have stop bars installed! Like everything else in this country, I'd expect it to be half arsed but massively overpriced. Also, standby for the years of orange cones around all this new equipment saying for some reason it can't be used due to safety/security concerns (think ADL airport ramp to the terminal), and years of NOTAMS while new concrete is dug up to install the required lights/equipment etc expected of a 1st world country.

[LostProperty]

Seems a bit strange that JQ seemed to get in using Auto Land ( This was procedure was transmitted by the crew to the tower ) but others missed out?
Also QF62 from Narita cleared off to Sydney after only one approach.
Gold Coast was wide open so why go to Sydney after all the flight from Narita is not that long if there are a 3 or 4 crew compliment.
Sure it's the Capt's decision but is a bit odd methinks.

There were actually 3 QF 330s that diverted from BNE to SYD after one landing attempt - QF62 as mentioned, QF52 from SIN and QF652 from PER. The aircraft that operated QF62 and QF652 eventually went back to BNE then later left for SIN and PER respectively. The one that originally arrived from Narita stayed in SYD for the rest of the day so presumably they offloaded the passengers for BNE onto some combination of the other two 330s and normal domestic flights.

[coaldemon]

Any Airline who is IOSA compliant will have an Approach Ban policy. Doesn't mean that they use it.

[Tankengine]

Any Airline who is IOSA compliant will have an Approach Ban policy. Doesn't mean that they use it.

For Cat 1?

[coaldemon]

For any approach theoretically

[maggot]

Reasonable expectation

[Beer Baron]

Qantas do have an approach ban policy but it only apply to low vis procedures, so below CAT I minima. Obviously not an issue in Brisbane.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Wonder what the costs add up to for all these diversions?
Also wonder why Australia as a supposed first world country
doesn't have CAT 111 available at the primaries?
Probably more money to be made building car parks I guess.
Passenger convenience always seems to come la st against
the imperative of making tax free dollars, unless of course
the tax payers stump up.

We don't have Cat III's because we don't really need them. How many diversions actually happen? Not enough.
I've seen far more passengers inconvenienced through tech or crew issues than from the aircraft not turning up due bad weather.