Helicopter crash Breighton aerodrome

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Reports of 5 persons on board.

Five casualties after helicopter crash - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-36821157)

[gixer6]

hope all involved are ok.

Any body know what type it was

[nellycopter]

On my doorstep..... Hope everyone is ok ..

[Maff]

Photos on Twitter show something that looks like a bell 47 in military colours at the side of a taxiway, but not that clear.

[Michael Gee]

Think you will find its an A2

[MightyGem]

The Hull Daily Mail is saying it's a Gazelle, but their photo is an Alouette 2.
Five casualties in helicopter crash at Breighton airfield near Howden | Hull Daily Mail (http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/five-casualties-in-helicopter-crash-at-breighton-airfield-near-howden/story-29522152-detail/story.html)

[Cows getting bigger]

Yep, looks remarkable similar to an Allouette 2.

[SilsoeSid]

Five casualties in helicopter crash at Breighton airfield near Howden | Hull Daily Mail (http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/five-casualties-in-helicopter-crash-at-breighton-airfield-near-howden/story-29522152-detail/story.html)

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276270/Article/images/29522152/14911687-large.jpg
CRASH: The Gazelle helicopter after the accident at Breighton Airfield near Howden

Clearly, the aircraft pictured is an Alouette 2

[SilsoeSid]

I'm not saying this is the same aircraft, nor am I assuming the crashed ac is AAC Historic flight. Purely posted for type comparison purposes.

http://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/military/helicopter/AH-2-Alouette/AH-2-Alouette_RIAT2005_006_800.jpg

Photos: Sud SE-3130 Alouette II | MilitaryAircraft.de - Aviation Photography (http://www.militaryaircraft.de/pictures/military/helicopter/AH-2-Alouette/AH-2-Alouette.html)

2x Alouette 2's on the UK register http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?catid=1&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=alouette

[ETOPS]

It' s the locally based Hungarian registered one - Not AAC HF

[SilsoeSid]

ETOPS;
It' s the locally based Hungarian registered one - Not AAC HF

Is that the white one?

[helihub]

Sid. That one is no longer white

[SATCOS WHIPPING BOY]

This just popped up on my news feed.

I hope everyone is ok.


Five seriously injured in Breighton airfield helicopter crash - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36821157)

[WWMick]

Five casualties in helicopter crash at Breighton airfield near Howden | Hull Daily Mail (http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/five-casualties-in-helicopter-crash-at-breighton-airfield-near-howden/story-29522152-detail/story.html)

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/images/localworld/ugc-images/276270/Article/images/29522152/14911687-large.jpg


Clearly, the aircraft pictured is an Alouette 2
I would pay little attention to hull daily mail, they use above photo then say "was carrying Royal Air Force marking" what part of ARMY can they not read

[BLEED-AIR]

Probably HA-PPC

[SASless]

I reckon this might shoot a bit of hole in the Anfi Theorem.

[md 600 driver]

Yes it's a Alouette 11 HAPPC ex AAC with 4 plus pilot looks like a tail rotor failure but either way there was a accident. Pilot got to go by YAA to LGI. Other 4 by road. Plenty of broken bones but otherwise hopefully all well

No names but it was the larger fellow

Will update when more news from hospital

Steve

[SilsoeSid]

Helihub; Sid. That one is no longer white

Bleed-Air; Probably HA-PPC


This would be her at Garton, from this site Alouettes & Lamas - Aviafora (http://www.aviafora.com/forums/forum/helicopter-fora/nostalgia/1957-alouettes-lamas/page2)

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/5ebb0198861349f7bafd4fa873d1da96_zpsxrpqu1m5.jpg
SE313B Alouette II HA-PPC (cn 1500) as seen near Garton on the Wolds in May 2016
Seen wearing her former Army Air Corps colours and XP967 registration.


Full photo credit to original poster.

[bondu]

Hope everyone recovers from their injuries.
Sad to see her in bits! :{
Flew XP967 extensively between 1981 and 1983 when she was with 16Flt AAC in Dhekelia, Cyprus. Hope she can be repaired and get back in the air again.

bondu

[SilsoeSid]

I reckon this might shoot a bit of hole in the Anfi Theorem.

... and maybe a few of the others of the same mindset as this thread developed http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/573162-emergency-landing.html

[krypton_john]

SASLess: "I reckon this might shoot a bit of hole in the Anfi Theorem."

Is there an indication this incident down to engine failure?

[SilsoeSid]

How come you didn't ask md 600 driver whether there is an indication of tail rotor failure as he suggested earlier?

[krypton_john]

Why would I ask him that when he already said as much?

<shrug>

[SilsoeSid]

8sK_D4y8Glw

'The helicopter was doing circuits around the airfield, it lifted up levelled off, and was about eight metres off the ground, following the course of the runway. The witness turned away then heard a loud boom, looked back to see the helicopter had crashed into the ground and was completely wrecked. He was about 200 yards away.'

[SilsoeSid]

Why would I ask him that when he already said as much?


So why ask sasless about engines?

[SilsoeSid]

Nobody has mentioned the 'S' word yet :ok:

[Wageslave]

Pilot got to go by YAA to LGI.

We are all well aware that jargon registers one as an insider and thus superior to the rest of us, but please, come down off your bloody self-elevated pinnacle and allow the rest of us mere British helicopter pilots to understand what on earth you are prating about?

Bah!

[jumpseater]

Well I'm not even a mere helicopter pilot, but Yorkshire Air Ambulance and Leeds General Infirmary seems a reasonable stab at it.

[SilsoeSid]

(md600driver)
Pilot got to go by YAA to LGI.
(wageslave)
We are all well aware that jargon registers one as an insider and thus superior to the rest of us, but please, come down off your bloody self-elevated pinnacle and allow the rest of us mere British helicopter pilots to understand what on earth you are prating about?

Bah!

LMFAO ....

YAA = Yorkshire Air Ambulance
LGI = Leeds General Infirmary

A flight regularly taken by 'mere British helicopter pilots' :rolleyes:

[md 600 driver]

Wageslave the others got it right( LGI and YAA )

Hope you understand this one FO TWXT if not someone may explain

Just got a message from Nige in hospital he s got Fractured back fractured sternum and fractured leg - operating tomorrow

[BLEED-AIR]

I suspect the land line will be hot to Hidroplan Nord !

[SilsoeSid]

Md, sounds a bit :eek:
Please pass on our best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[anti-talk]

Steve, pass on my best wishes from over the 'other side of the pond' to Nigel for a speedy recovery.

[krypton_john]

Sid: "So why ask sasless about engines?"

Because he brought up anFI which often means discussion about single vs twin safety, so I wondered if he was questioning or suggesting engine failure was a factor.

[Newforest2]

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=188723


Speedy recoveries wished for the injured. Had a vague memory that all Alouettes had been grounded?

[[email protected]]

is that Nigel H - a regular contributor to these pages? If so - get well soon Nige, very sorry to hear about the crash.:ok:

[md 600 driver]

is that Nigel H - a regular contributor to these pages? If so - get well soon Nige, very sorry to hear about the crash.:ok:

No not Nigel h Nigel f

[Whirlybird]

I flew this helicopter with Nigel back in 2010, for an article for Today's Pilot. I remember him well, and the helicopter. So sad to read this. Please give Nigel my best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[Palma]

Krypton John.

Please translate "I reckon this might shoot a bit of hole in the Anfi Theorem."

Many thanks.

[[email protected]]

MD600 - thatnks for the clarification:ok:

Palma - AnFi's pet, and oft spouted, theorem is that singles are safer than twins - hence the comment from KJ, although it was SASless who first mentioned it:ok:

[Rotate too late]

No not Nigel h Nigel f

I suppose he needs something to keep him occupied post UKIP!!!!

[SilsoeSid]

Any more updates?

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7472/27411174390_4d0da0dee8_b.jpg
Taken last week.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/98531702@N05/27411174390/sizes/k/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98531702@N05/albums/72157669207003572

[SilsoeSid]

Is it regular practise, for some reason, not to wear the shoulder straps?

[SilsoeSid]

Not suggesting in any way that the person involved in this incident is in this video, just that I would like to ask if there is some sort of mindset being allowed to take place at Breighton.

fzU-7aO9L5w

LAGIRnla0U0

[nellycopter]

SS..... Should the young boys be drinking coke and not orange ?
Is that what you mean ?:p

[Mr747]

VSaeOg9itsw

Found this looks like a similar kind of takeoff as the gazelle.

[Bell_ringer]

Aren't these old turbines, under the right (wrong?) conditions, susceptible to compressor stall?

[PDR1]

Do you get compressor stall in centrifugal compressors?

PDR

[212man]

Do you get compressor stall in centrifugal compressors?


Yes, but they are less susceptible than axial compressors.

[SilsoeSid]

Interesting find Mr747, it seems there was a bit of a problem starting with the third time being lucky.

Would like to know how all that worked, as the right hand seat person got out after the first failed start, got out went round the port side and opened the door. As the Al3 flew past we get the second start with person that was in the rhs standing by the port door. On the third (successful) start, same person closes port door checks engine and climbs back into the rhs.
Who is in the lhs? As the ac presents the port side to us they look quite small.

[sycamore]

SS,didn`t you see his cowboy boots.....

[SilsoeSid]

Shuuure did sycamore, thar's some crazy Al.2 folk out there ...
(other crazy helicopter folk are available) ...

mq9YaZRX3tg

SXKw942fOos

[KNIEVEL77]

SS, the first video on your last post send shivers down my spine!

[MightyGem]

Flew XP967 extensively between 1981 and 1983 when she was with 16Flt AAC in Dhekelia, Cyprus.
In that case, I may well have had a pax ride with Jim KP around the same time. My boss knew I was applying for the AAC and arranged it.

[AnFI]

K77 yes quite right and nuts not to wear ear defenders too

[212man]

SS, the first video on your last post send shivers down my spine!

Gashville airport; Darwin's spiritual home. Wires? We laugh at wires....

[nigelh]

Thankyou for your concern Crab , ....you do have a heart after all !!!!
As for the first video above ....i find it amazing that the pilot has managed to get so old !!! ( Or maybe he just looks old from the worry of what the f***K he would do if the donk stopped at anytime during that ride !!)

[nigelh]

Oh ...and i also wish them all a speedy recovery and thank God it wasnt worse ...

[squidie]

The club will give out a statement tomorrow in-respect to the A2 crash yesterday. Thankfully no fatalities.

[bondu]

Hi Mighty Gem, you might find that I gave you a few flights in the old girl!!

bondu

[Lonewolf_50]

As for the first video above it appears (in that video from Vidalia, Georgia, USA) that they were charging for the rides at an airshow ... someone may need to have a quiet word with that operator. I guess she got her money's worth. :eek:

[MightyGem]

Hi Mighty Gem, you might find that I gave you a few flights in the old girl!!

The only one I remember was a bit of hover practise down Akrotiri way. :eek:

[MightyGem]

The yokels, sorry, locals aren't happy:
Breighton helicopter crash: Worried residents fear more accidents | Hull Daily Mail (http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/breighton-helicopter-crash-worried-residents-fear-more-accidents/story-29523872-detail/story.html)

[nigelh]

Another loovely day out in the countryside for the fire brigade :ok: Imagine how many would have turned up if there had actually been a fire !!!
When we are burning heather on the moor , in spite of warning them of exactly where the smoke would be coming from , they still turn out ...sometimes up to three engines and they can come back three times during the day if its a nice day . I guess they get paid by the number of call outs?

[Fake Sealion]

The blue Gazelle in video one was a 705 cab back in the day, XW857. Flew it for my very first rotary solo, although my transition and climb away I recall was a little more measured than the one we see here.

[Bell_ringer]

The yokels, sorry, locals aren't happy

Isn't it amazing how people that live near an airfield are surprised by low-flying aircraft in the vicinity.
That said, old warbirds (especially the gazelle) seem to be a license for "enthusiastic" flying the world over. :hmm:

[SilsoeSid]

18th Jul 2016 21:14
squidie;
The club will give out a statement tomorrow in-respect to the A2 crash yesterday.
Any update on that one squidie?


Bell Ringer;
Isn't it amazing how people that live near an airfield are surprised by low-flying aircraft in the vicinity.

It's not the matter of living by an airfield and complaining about the low flying, these people were concerned;

"We have been saying it for weeks. There is a lot of low, low-flying and a lot of stunts from both the planes and the helicopters," she (LW) said.
"They are always so low that it doesn't surprise me one of them has crashed. A few years ago the parish council banned certain activity there but it has slowly been relaxed – they are flying lower and lower and doing more and more stunts."
Ms Watkinson added: "I think we are shocked by what has happened but not surprised because of what has been going on.


If someone had listened and taken such action as a word in an ear, perhaps this incident may not have happened. 10 knots faster, 10 metres further or 10 metres higher and this could have easily been a multiple fatality event.

What amazes me most is that aviators themselves have repeatedly watched these stunts go on for some time, so why didn't anyone in the aviation world say anything?

[SilsoeSid]

The Real Aeroplane Company - Breighton Aerodrome (http://www.realaero.com/bugle.htm)

Helicopter Accident

There have been numerous ill-informed reports broadcast and published regarding the accident at Breighton Airfield on Sunday evening.

To set the record straight the aircraft involved was a visitor to Breighton and was landing on Runway 28 with five on board when the accident occurred. We are unclear as to how the accident happened and the Real Aeroplane Company are liaising with the AAIB who are conducting an investigation into the incident and compiling a report which will be published when complete.

The airfield was manned at the time of the accident by our organising team who were nearing the end of their duties following the weekend's event, the vast majority of club members and their guests having already departed.

Our thoughts are with our friends who are injured and we wish them a speedy recovery. They are all making good progress. We also send our best wishes to their families and friends.

We would like to thank all Club members who were at the scene and who acted so promptly, we'd also like to extend that thanks to the emergency services, who were brilliant, and to everyone who has emailed and telephoned their best wishes.

Breighton is a very safe airfield with an exceptional safety record throughout its 25 years, the Company collection of historic aircraft having never suffered an accident or caused injury to pilots whilst operating at the airfield.

Googling HA PPC Breighton would suggest an extremely frequent visitor.
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=ha+ppc+breighton

[SilsoeSid]

Obviously CAP 632 wouldn't apply as it was Hungarian registered and with neither the thread http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/275909-28-weeks-later-gazelle-questions-2.html nor the report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f928e5274a131700076d/Aerospatiale_SA.341G_Gazelle_HA-LFB_10-12.pdf being able to answer my question, could someone please answer this for me ... What, if any, are the regs for carrying passengers in Hungarian registered ex military aircraft?
Thanks.

[[email protected]]

I think there are all sorts of regulations that are 'worked around' with the Hungarian registration - many of them related to dodgy maintenance practices and component histories.

[Hot and Hi]

10 knots faster, 10 metres further or 10 metres higher and this could have easily been a multiple fatality event.
I always thought it works the other way round: airspeed, height, obstacle clearance! So probably with more speed and height the accident could have been AVOIDED.

[SilsoeSid]

Maybe so Hot and Hi, but that only works if the conditions are right, the biggest being if the aircraft remains in one piece.

[Hughes500]

SS an Crab

If it is anything like having the 341 on the YU reg it is to do with cheaper parts.
I used to fly 2 x 341's for owners, one on the G plate ( EASA machine )and one on the Yu plate ( both civil ones not ex mil). the clutches had gone in both machines. Eurocopter charged £ 37 k for the G plate one. The Yu clutch came straight from the factory in Bosnia ( not an EASA signatory ) and was £ 7500. On later investigation ( paperwork left in box ) the G plate clutch had been been purchased by Eurocopter from the factory in Bosnia, they then charged £29000 for putting an EASA Form 1 on the clutch, nice work if you can get it !!!!!:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Blimey :eek:

[md 600 driver]

Obviously CAP 632 wouldn't apply as it was Hungarian registered and with neither the thread http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/275909-28-weeks-later-gazelle-questions-2.html nor the report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5422f928e5274a131700076d/Aerospatiale_SA.341G_Gazelle_HA-LFB_10-12.pdf being able to answer my question, could someone please answer this for me ... What, if any, are the regs for carrying passengers in Hungarian registered ex military aircraft?
Thanks.
Hi SID yes I can answer that it's easy
Passengers are allowed to be carried
The same as when the same aircraft was in the uk on the g reg with a full c of a but whereas the UK CAA allowed commercial operations/air taxi ect the Hungarians will not they only allow private use
You may ask why take this aircraft off the UK. G reg I also know the answer to that one when the owner bought it he looked for a maintenance company with expertise in operation of alouette helicopters there was virtually no one in the uk that had any on their books and he found a maintence company that was JAR 145 in Hungary that had 16 alouettes on their books and he arranged for them to maintain his helicopter , there was also a problem with instructors / examiners for yearly LPC they were also very thin on the ground with the U.K. CAA frequently having to give special authorisation for training and exams
The Hungarian CAA had a few examiners and training organisations to do type ratings

Both of these made it a no brainier where to register it

Sorry I forgot to add it's cheaper too

[[email protected]]

Hughes 500 - I believe there have been some questions asked about who signs off the EASA Form 1s and suggestions made that unscrupulous operators might just do it themselves and pass the parts on as 'official'.

Cheaper isn't what I would choose if it was keeping me up in the air.

[Hughes500]

Crab

I know what you are saying but saw the box with the clutch in with Eurocopter paperwork. They want to drive the 341 out of the market as it is a better machine than the 120 !

[nigelh]

why not put it on the n reg ? Regarding type ratings and examiners being hard to find , the great thing with the FAA license is that i can do my check ride ( every TWO years ) and i can be signed off by an instructor who has never even been in my type of helicopter !! I really think i would give up most of my flying if i had to have a type rating for each aircraft ....i only have about 7 or 8 types that i regularly fly but even that would be a real headache !!! .....
and very expensive and completely unnecessary .

[rans6andrew]

BBC news now showing "1 Fatal" in connection with this accident. Not good news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36894643

[John R81]

There is a separate condolences thread running in respect of the fatality from this accident.


http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/582081-nigel-f.html

[SilsoeSid]

It was mentioned on the other thread that the ac underwent a major overhaul recently; after reading here about some of the reasons to have it on a hungarian registration, I wonder what the investigation will find.

[stringfellow]

Hi Steve. I have met you and your sidekick Nigel at various heli related events over the past few years. I feel your pain and despair. He was a lovely man, the term larger than life was made for him. As for other comments on here I don't feel angry just terrified at the prospect of losing breath discussing them.

[nigelh]

Very sad indeed . RIP .
I hear he did a quick stop , came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground .

[SilsoeSid]

Are you suggesting an engine problem Nigel?

Apparently they can be fitted with a gazelle engine (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/230273-alouette.html#post1536265), plenty around if you have the contacts (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/397870-gazelles-anyone.html#post5361389)

[nigelh]

All i know is what i heard . A bang could be just about anything ...whatever it was it left no time to do anything it appears . Tragic .

[SilsoeSid]

The AAIB said it was sending investigators to the site after “one of the persons on board passed away”.

Investigators had been carrying out the inquiry by correspondence, without visiting the site.

But it said in a statement it had now become a “field investigation” following the death.

The wreckage was removed from Breighton airfield, where a 1940s themed event of classic aircrafts was being hosted.
Man dies after helicopter crash (From York Press) (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/14644764.Man_dies_after_helicopter_crash/)

As the ac has already been removed and the area presumably tidied up, how does this affect the investigation? Out of interest, where was the airframe taken to and had the paperwork already been impounded?

[md 600 driver]

Man dies after helicopter crash (From York Press) (http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/14644764.Man_dies_after_helicopter_crash/)

As the ac has already been removed and the area presumably tidied up, how does this affect the investigation? Out of interest, where was the airframe taken to and had the paperwork already been impounded?

Sid as usual you do get it wrong

AAIB investigators have moved the investigation to a more involved one as one of the occupants (the pilot )has sadly died
The aircraft is STILL at BREIGHTON and the AAIB will be moving it tomorrow from BREIGHTON to farnbrough , on a truck if you want I will get the registration number for you
The paperwork that was in the helicopter has been given to the AAIB and all the log cards /form1 /airframe / engine /airworthiness docs ect books are all being packaged up and sent to the AAIB
At Farnborough to assist them with their investigation
Thanks for your concerns but I think the AAIB have every thing in hand it's not the first time they've done this

[SilsoeSid]

As the ac has already been removed and the area presumably tidied up, how does this affect the investigation? Out of interest, where was the airframe taken to and had the paperwork already been impounded?
Sid as usual you do get it wrong

The aircraft is STILL at BREIGHTON and the AAIB will be moving it tomorrow from BREIGHTON to farnbrough


Just quoted the article MD. Sorry if I misunderstood when it said, "The wreckage was removed from Breighton airfield, " I could only surmise that it had been removed from the airfield.

As your account of things seems to differ to that of the article, I suggest you help the AAIB as best you can, you may even know the history of the engine.

So, the paperwork is now being bundled to be sent on to the AAIB, ten days after the event, thanks for that.

https://adarvetranslationsblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/shoot-the-messenger.gif

[md 600 driver]

sid

maybe i am a bit thick was your cartoons supposed to mean something?
hopefully it was directed at me ,not the deceased /

also i was intrigued by your mention of the engine is there something one needs to know about the engine ,or do you know something about the engine that every one needs to know ?

[PENNINE BOY]

Sid!
Wait for the report to come out, stop behaving like a spoilt child! A great guy has lost his life and you keep digging for ****! :ugh:

[jellycopter]

Steve. Don't waste your breath! JJ

[[email protected]]

I think Sid's point is that, following a military accident (which this clearly isn't), all documents for the aircraft would be immediately impounded so that any evidence would be preserved as it was at the time of the crash.

More difficult to ensure with a private operator and more difficult therefore for the AAIB to guarantee no interference post crash with the documentation.

I am NOT saying this could be the case with this sad accident but I think there is scope in the aviation community to 'lose' dodgy paperwork post accident.

[SilsoeSid]

So, I link to a news report, as we all do, that says "The wreckage was removed from Breighton airfield" . When I ask how this removal would affect the investigation, I am told that I am wrong.

Nigleh tells us he heard that "the ac did a quick stop, (with 5 pob!) came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground." I ask if he is suggesting that this could be an engine issue and I am told that I am wrong.


MD;
maybe i am a bit thick was your cartoons supposed to mean something?
hopefully it was directed at me ,not the deceased /

also i was intrigued by your mention of the engine is there something one needs to know about the engine ,or do you know something about the engine that every one needs to know ?

The cartoon is MD trying to shoot the messenger, but getting it wrong.

As for the engine reference, I think you'll find that after his description of the incident, I asked nigelh if he was suggesting there is an engine issue here. Knowing that MD has knowledge about Alouettes being fitted with Gazelle engines and that he knows/knew someone selling a load off, as referred to in my links, he might know more than most about the engines fitted to Alouettes.


As for the comment; "Thanks for your concerns but I think the AAIB have every thing in hand it's not the first time they've done this".

I'm sure that it isn't, and more importantly it won't be the last; however things such as the ac's removal from the site, investigation by correspondence, and paperwork bundling up ten days after ... imho ... would suggest that perhaps in future some things might need assessing.

[SilsoeSid]

PB;Sid!
Wait for the report to come out, stop behaving like a spoilt child! A great guy has lost his life and you keep digging for ****! :ugh:

I'm ok with taking your abuse, as long as in the meantime we can find something that may prevent this happening again before that report comes out next year+ ....

Is it really me that you need to vent out at?
Taken from the comments of others here;

nigelh - Quick stops 5 on board
MD600driver - Tail rotor failure
nigelh - Engine problem
Bellringer - Compressor stall
Hughes500 - Cheap Parts
MD600driver - Cheaper maintenance
MD600driver - LPC trainers/licensing problems in UK
toptobottom - Recent big overhaul (other thread) (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/582081-nigel-f.html#post9452901)



At the moment this is post 94 of this thread!

[Bell_ringer]

Oi. Leave me out of the handbags at dawn. :ouch:

Considering the breadth of experience in this forum, and those that know the Alo and Gaz very well, I was simply asking a question in the context of some discussions around these motors and compressor surge when a lot of power is pulled rapidly. Supposedly, apart from power loss, it could result in a backfire (bang?).

This may be complete nonsense and was hoping someone could clarify if this is a known characteristic of those old engines.

[EESDL]

Well this is running true to form.
Same old response and protagonists after every accident.
At what point does the thread split - one for condolences and the other for a mix of wild speculation and bollox?

I appreciate it is a rumour network but please retain some decorum - oh hang on - too early for that input - that is usually after circa 130 posts.......

[SilsoeSid]

At what point does the thread split - one for condolences and the other for a mix of wild speculation and bollox?

About three days ago! (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/582081-nigel-f.html)

http://www.paulserra.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/two-finger-pulse.jpg

:ugh:

[Hughes500]

Sid

I really suggest you owe a lot of people a really big apology here. How f..king dare you suggest in your list that anyone should vent at me about cheap parts. I was asked why people put ac on other registers. I answered the comment with an example ( 341 not the type in question ) were the parts cheaper, yes but exactly the same, so do not imply that the parts are not airworthy and link it to this crash. My post has nothing to do with why the ac crashed and why would you suggest anyone should vent at me for answering a question
Quite frankly you are way out of order

[SilsoeSid]

H500, after I was vented at for simply quoting a news article, I think you'll find that it went like this;

I asked the question, 'What, if any, are the regs for carrying passengers in Hungarian registered ex military aircraft?'

Crab came back with, "I think there are all sorts of regulations that are 'worked around' with the Hungarian registration - many of them related to dodgy maintenance practices and component histories."

Then you added to the topic with, "If it is anything like having the 341 on the YU reg it is to do with cheaper parts ..."


My question was nothing to do with parts, maintenance nor licensing, it was purely about passenger carrying.
You brought 'cheaper parts' to the thread which is why it was mentioned in the list of what people have commented on. Nobody, apart from you, has mentioned any airworthiness issues.

[ericferret]

Rather surprised to see the suggestion that an Alouette 2 can be converted to fly with an Astazou 111 or XIV (see post 84).
Is there any evidence to support this idea? Alouettes were sold with either the Artouste II or the Astazou IIA (not a Gazelle variant).

I note that the Alouette II is a non-EASA aircraft and therefore it's maintenance is regulated by the country of registration. So to determine any airworthiness issues you need to be aware of the local regulations.

[PoacherNowGamekeeper]

One could look upon certain aircraft types being put on a foreign register when operating in a different country as using a 'flag of convenience'.

Whilst there may have been an element of that here, I understand that the aircraft was HA registered because all the expertise in maintaining this type was in Hungary. That's fair enough.

The AAIB's investigation will be interesting to follow and this comes quite soon after the CAA's ongoing work, subsequent to an AAIB Safety Rec, concerning the operation of foreign registered aircraft based in the UK.

The investigation will hopefully be assisted by the accounts of the survivors, having witnessed those last few seconds before impact.

[[email protected]]

5-up doing quickstops on a warm day would certainly have tested the quality of the maintenance, foreign or otherwise.

[chopjock]

5-up doing quickstops on a warm day would certainly have tested the quality of the maintenance, foreign or otherwise.

Unless it was windy of course, then pretty much just a flare required eh?

[SilsoeSid]

5-up doing quickstops on a warm day would certainly have tested the quality of the maintenance, foreign or otherwise.
Unless it was windy of course, then pretty much just a flare required eh?

How windy would that need to be then chodjock? :rolleyes:

METAR/SPECI from EGNJ, Humberside (United Kingdom).

METAR EGNJ 172050Z AUTO 32004KT 9999 NCD 18/12 Q1021=

METAR EGNJ 172020Z 27007KT CAVOK 19/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171950Z 27007KT CAVOK 20/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171920Z 28010KT CAVOK 22/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171850Z 28011KT CAVOK 22/12 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171820Z 29009KT CAVOK 23/11 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171750Z 28010KT CAVOK 24/10 Q1020=

METAR EGNJ 171720Z 27010KT 230V290 CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

METAR EGNJ 171650Z 28011KT CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

METAR EGNJ 171620Z 29010KT 260V320 CAVOK 24/12 Q1019=

[EESDL]

Thanks for that - being 3-days behind the curve is quite good for me!
The disadvantage of using a small screen ;-)

[Hughes500]

What has the quality of the maintenance to do with having 5 up doing quicksteps. ??????? I would suggest it has more to do with pilot skills.

[[email protected]]

I don't know about you but if something goes bang and there is a crash then I would be looking towards mechanical failure - hence the quality of maintenance might be an issue.

The end of a quickstop - especially when heavy - puts a lot of strain on the whole engine and transmission system - high power, lots of pedal etc.

If it was just pilot error then maintenance clearly won't be an issue. I don't know what sort of pilot he was.

[SilsoeSid]

Chodjock,
Unless it was windy of course, then pretty much just a flare required eh?

Will this wind strength, turning the quickstop into a mere flare; need to be lesser or greater than the translational lift airspeed ;)

-hJQ18S6aag

[chopjock]

Sid
Will this wind strength, turning the quickstop into a mere flare; need to be lesser or greater than the translational lift airspeed

Even you should know the answer to that.
Clearly if it is windy, say 30kts or so, quick stops are much less of a strain on the mechanics than if there is no wind at all, assuming heading into the wind that is.
Not knowing the wind on the day though, my statement was generic, trying to balance out a one sided statement about it being a warm day and thus hard on the quality of maintenance.
The A2 has a big engine I believe, fully capable for load lifting perhaps?
I'm guessing 5 up, a warm day, 10kts of wind, power should not be a problem. What was the fuel load?, probably light I should think, coming in to an airfield.
Could it be fuel was so light the engine sucked air during the flare?

[SilsoeSid]

Clearly if it is windy, say 30kts or so, quick stops are much less of a strain on the mechanics than if there is no wind at all, assuming heading into the wind that is.

Just a couple of things; what happens at the end of a flare? and the one I'd really like you to answer without googling, how do you think a downwind quickstop is executed?

[chopjock]

what happens at the end of a flare?

er you stop. Obviously lots of power, pitch and pedal required, even more if in warm, still air.

how do you think a downwind quickstop is executed?

Carefully! requiring a little more height and power I should think, better still, avoid it.!

Why are you asking? Do you think I may not know how to fly?

We are going off thread here Sid...

[SilsoeSid]

Could it be fuel was so light the engine sucked air during the flare?

So we can add to the list;

Chopjock - Fuel starvation during the final stages of a quick stop.

[whoknows idont]

Where I come from, a quick stop is still considered an emergency procedure. Can we just grant the guy the benefit of the doubt and assume that the trouble would have started before the alleged quick stop?

[SilsoeSid]

... or just as it was coming to completion.
I hear he did a quick stop , came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground .

[[email protected]]

Where I come from, a quick stop is still considered an emergency procedure for many of us, it is a basic general handling manoeuvre, used as a method of going from fast cruise to position for landing.

[whoknows idont]

I'm just saying that it's a bit too easy to conclude that the quick stop was the origin of the emergency. Could well be that he executed the quick stop to react to something going kaput, couldn't it?

[B47]

Sid. I'm sitting here in a bar at Oshkosh (made it eventually after twenty years of trying), had a fantastic week enjoying the true joyous spirit of aviation, but with many thoughts (and,frankly, the odd tear) for our friend Nigel. Me, with nearly thirty years of rotary experience but with great humility to what I'm certain I don't know, and of listening to your superior experience and put-downs, and resisting any response, since the day Pprune started, with this thread you have crossed the line. Your insistence on desperately needing to impose your supposed experience and technical superiority are, frankly, offensive. Buy a mirror. Or listen to those around you - for once. Show some ****** respect to our friend Nigel please. Hijacking this thread to encourage speculation, technical, pilot error, wind/weather, w/b, you name it.. on the cause of his death is disgraceful. And don't you dare respond. I won't join you in that gutter. I've learned one thing in thirty years of flying - ATTITUDE, not the thickness of your logbook, is everything. Humility is a key ingredient.

[tistisnot]

B47 ....... where's the Like, Love, Wow emoticon thingy!

[SilsoeSid]

B47,

I think you'll find that there are eight different contributors here that have speculated on a cause, whereas I have not.
Please be more specific as to where I have done this as it appears to me that you haven't read the thread.

I refer you in particular to posts 94 & 99.


p.s. PPRuNe 'started' in 1996, I didn't join until 2002 :ok:

[[email protected]]

whoknowsidont - if you had any malfunction that you thought serious, I suggest the last thing you would do is try to bring the aircraft to a high hover when an immediate landing was possible.

The suggestion was that the extra power, pedal etc required at the end of a quickstop, might well have been what caused component failure - if that indeed was what caused this unfortunate crash.

B47 - I understand your pain and I think all posters here feel for someone who has lost a friend but speculation about causes of accidents is what happens on pprune - it's human nature. As usually happens, the original thread splits into two, one for condolences and one for speculation/analysis. If the speculation thread upsets you, don't read it.

Everything I have read here points to the fact that Nigel was a well-liked chap and it is always sad to lose one of the good guys - many of us who served in the military have played that scene out often enough - as, I am sure, has Sid.

[Michael Gee]

B47 refers to this present thread on pprune that is running !
Nigelh - You only 'hear' what happened.
Why do people go on thinking they might know what the cause of this accident is when all of you base your reasonings on hearsay ?

[SilsoeSid]

Can I just point out that it was MD600 Driver in post 17 (http://www.pprune.org/9443029-post17.html?) that first speculated a cause to this incident. All posts prior to that were identifying the type.

It was then general discussion for another 30 posts before KJ speculated about an engine problem; then another 26 before other speculations/observations are made by nigelh and md600 driver, both of whom I am led to believe are friends of Nigel F.

Thank you.


(this is post 122)

[Bell_ringer]

Are all these posts, honestly, the culmination of the many years of supposed experience that calls this forum home?
For those that have lost a friend, we all understand the sense of loss and disbelief.
Discussion and speculation is a constructive and natural way for everyone else to try understand what happened and, perhaps, learn something.
It is not a criticism on anyone involved, and should not been seen as such through the eyes of grief.

[whoknows idont]

whoknowsidont - if you had any malfunction that you thought serious, I suggest the last thing you would do is try to bring the aircraft to a high hover when an immediate landing was possible.

Absolutely agree. But if you are at high speed a quick stop is necessary for an immediate landing?

[[email protected]]

Not really - yes you have to slow down to land but a quickstop is executed at a safe height and usually involves coming to the hover before moving forward and down.

What is taught as a gate approach would be the usual method of going from cruise flight straight to a landing.

it all depends on what he was doing at the time - a previous poster said he was doing quickstops.

[nigelh]

Before i get dragged into this even more , i would like to point out that nobody has said he was performing Quick Stops...plural . Also i cannot see any relevance of a quick stop with regard to a possible failure . Done correctly , as i am sure it will have been , it is not high stress and is a daily event for most people and if you think it IS high stress for the machine ...your doing it wrong .

[[email protected]]

Very sad indeed . RIP .
I hear he did a quick stop , came to the hover and there was a Bang ...next thing it was on the ground . This is what you wrote in post #83 Nigel - you don't say quickstop(S) but that is super pedantic as a defence.

I don't know how close to MAUM an Alouette with 5 pob is but coming to a high hover in light winds will require a lot of power - hence the comment about stress = even if the manoeuvre is flown very gently.

[whoknows idont]

Crab, I once was taught the quick stop in a way so it smoothly ends at a safe hover altitude, not in a high hover. I think your definition is quite interesting but what do I know. This discussion is leading nowhere anyways.

[[email protected]]

In a single engine helo like the Alouette, the bottom end of your avoid curve probably isn't much higher than 10' - most quickstops are taught at 20 - 50' for tail clearance.

Depends on your definition of a safe hover altitude.

They should always be flown smoothly but you said it was an emergency procedure.

[nigelh]

Crab .... Maybe your mil training is very different , but most of us civvy pilots can do a quick stop and come to a relatively low hover , certainly in ground effect . Therefore I really think you are talking nonsense somehow implying that it is " stressful " on the aircraft or even necessarily using a very high power demand ....as I said earlier ...if your quick stops are high stress and high power input ... You are doing them wrong .
Lastly , I think even you realise that the comment " doing quick stops " is , in this instance , hugely different to the comment " doing A quick stop " . You are trying to imply ,( as you so often do in your own inimitable self righteous way !!) a cowboy way of flying , which you really have no right to do . You are SO transparent ....!!!

[tartare]

For those of us non-rotary wing rated... can you explain what this `quick stop' is?
I assume a flare at speed which causes the helicopter to rapidly decelerate and then drop the nose down into a hover?

[Hughes500]

Tar

Yup that explains it nicely. What you have been hearing about high power demands and stressing the airframe can happen if the quickstop is done wrong or extremely aggressively ! However if done correctly puts no more power through the transmission system than a vertical landing

[[email protected]]

Nigel - you are trying to read far too much into my post that simply isn't there - you mentioned the quickstop in the first place and then stressed that you meant quickstop in the singular not the plural - you clearly feel the difference between one quickstop and multiple ones equates to cowboy flying - your words not mine and I have never suggested that anything untoward was going on.

Mil training standard height for a quickstop is 50', particularly for bigger aircraft where tail strike is a real danger - this is for academic training though and operationally could be much lower.

I am not so bullish about my own piloting skills to attest that I have never made a mess of a quickstop and I have seen some very interesting variations by students in my long time as an instructor.

Are you saying you have never got one wrong?

Yes, a quickstop should be flown smoothly and without drama but, at high AUM (if you are not used to it) and very light winds, the loss of ETL , especially following an aggressive flare, and the sudden increase in power required, can require rapid application of lever and pedal to prevent sink and hold heading - hence the comments about stress on the airframe.

Tartare - in case you are wondering, ETL is Effective Translational Lift - a helicopter phenomenon where a change in induced flow through the rotor gives a decrease in power required as you accelerate through about 12 kts TAS - the reverse is true on decel.

[Bell_ringer]

For Tar, an example of how to do it vs how not to do it (these have done the rounds before)

jGMCiDXeCF8

c4kAaTXU91U

[Hughes500]

my that was an expensive quick stop !

[enstrompilot]

With 4 pax what fuel load at takeoff was possible within mtow?
What fuel remained at the approach to the field ?
The Al2 flight manual proposes a cautious, flat, approach profile to the hover when remaining fuel is low. (Low fuel warning light at 60 litres)

An Al2 with square tank has the fuel pump /pick-up at the front of tank, during a noise high manoeuvre the possible loss of stable fuel feed/pressure (potentially at a point of high fuel demand) could contribute to a pilots challenge.

Did the tank remain intact ? What fuel remained ?
Could an untimely (brief) power fluctuation, if one occurred, have contributed ?

[tartare]

Thanks Fellas - impressive to see a machine of such size do that.

[GipsyMagpie]

The accident report (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/air-accident-monthly-bulletin-july-2017)

The report was published early this morning. My own personal summary is that there was no technical failure; it was at high AUM and near forward CG. The rate of quickstop in these conditions (also noting a low noise down attitude in the hover - a result of fwd CG) would have needed lots and rapid aft cyclic which resulted in main disc contacting the boom.

Thoughts still with the family of the pilot and with the 4 surviving passengers.

[md 600 driver]

It always amazes me that after 1 year of investigating the AAIB can't even get the important facts correct

The max gross weight is 1600 kg as the plate in the front of the helicopter shows ,more importantly because they make comment to their interpretation of the aircraft being over weight, using the correct figure the aircraft would have been nearer to gross weight and at 2kg over weight [their estimate } more that would that have been used on start up before flight

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rhu0o0zc897msfo/IMG_3613.JPG?dl=0


Fr0m AAIB report

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfcoq7j9ulxczmp/IMG_3612.PNG?dl=0

copy of plate in helicopter and from manual for 313B

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rhu0o0zc897msfo/IMG_3613.JPG?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bfcoq7j9ulxczmp/IMG_3612.PNG?dl=0

[[email protected]]

However, stunting and bunting at close to (or just over) MAUM with a C of G very close to the forward limit is foolhardy at best and certainly doesn't meet the concept of looking after the safety and well being of the pax.

45 degrees nose up is a ridiculous amount for a quickstop - especially at the limits of AUM and C of G.

Very sad that it proved fatal but there is only one person to blame.

[levo]

Just found out about this, so sad a nice chap with a big heart. RIP Nige

[md 600 driver]

Just found out about this, so sad a nice chap with a big heart. RIP Nige

not a day goes past without thinking about him he’s very sadly missed
Steve

[levo]

Hi Steve sorry buddy i know he was your close friend i feel for you to, you've just got to keep going and remember the good times .

Paul.