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Seldomfitforpurpose
14th Jul 2016, 22:31
Just enjoyed a fantastic Bastille Day firework display in the tiny French town of Saint-Jean-Du-Gard and just got into hear the terrible news on the BBC. Details are confused but simply WTF.

Uncle Fred
14th Jul 2016, 22:37
Agencies reporting at least 30 dead and over 100 injured.

Hussar 54
14th Jul 2016, 22:41
Depending on which TV Channel you're watching, anything between 12 and 60 people killed by a large truck deliberately driven into a crowd watching a firework display.

The driver shot and killed by the police.

Kulverstukas
14th Jul 2016, 22:43
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnW8TXTWAAAAR8T.jpg

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 22:47
On the Promenade des Anglais. Bastard! (him, not you Fred or Huzz or SFP)

The driver shot and killed by the police

Before? during? or after his drive?

Hussar 54
14th Jul 2016, 22:55
No news given, but the pictures showing the truck with smashed front and broken windscreen.

Witnesses saying it drove about 75 metres along the pavement crushing people before stopping, then the police started firing.

Kulverstukas
14th Jul 2016, 22:59
Newsfeed is full of videos with people smashed and blood on the pavement. Nice officials told about "up to 50 killed and more than 100 injured".

Hussar 54
14th Jul 2016, 23:06
Police confirm they have identified 73 bodies 'with no signs of life' and ' the victims are likely to include many Germans and British as well as French '

TV also reporting that the Truck drove almost 2kms along the pavement before stopping.

Hussar 54
14th Jul 2016, 23:22
The mayor of Nice now saying that the driver was also shooting at pedestrians,

NutLoose
14th Jul 2016, 23:25
Totally agree, one just hopes they and their families are never put in this position, absolutely pathetic excuses for human beings.

RIP and my heartfelt condolences to those families effected by this tragedy.

seen_the_box
14th Jul 2016, 23:52
France is on the verge of 'civil war', the country's head of intelligence says | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3685561/France-verge-civil-war-sparked-mass-sexual-assault-women-migrants-intelligence-chief-warns.html)

I think he's right. It's not going to take much more for the French to start pushing back.

meadowrun
15th Jul 2016, 00:20
Pushing back?
And just what does that entail?
France, and a number of others, have an entrenched fifth column. Isis doesn't really need to send in more.
Just what are you going to do about that?

Uncle Fred
15th Jul 2016, 00:44
Well Meadow that is indeed the question for the first quarter (at least) of this century.

Not every problem has a solution and this is a tough one. Is it an existential problem? Well, it would be hard to frame it as such but it is certainly is a hi-impact asymmetrical one.

At this moment I do not envy those who have aides who file in every morning to the staff meeting with the thick briefing books--in other words Presidents and Prime Ministers and Chancellors. These require tough decisions.

Out of frustration though I will say I am tired of the same old tropes that are trotted out after things like this. Mentions of English kings Crusading hundreds of years ago, the Westboro Baptist Church, or that we, by our mere existence, serve as a provocation. These counterpoints are shopworn. I know they will be put out though. Express horror, ROP, don't let it divide us, watch out for the backlash, etc. Just put it on autoplay.

The sheer nihilism of these attacks beggars beliefs. I fear it is a cliche but our thoughts really do go out the those directly affected by this. Moments of familial joy turned to death. Repulsive.

meadowrun
15th Jul 2016, 01:25
If there is a cancer in society and it cannot be treated with non-invasive methods - you remove it. If you don't - you do not have your society anymore.
Those true to the religion of Islam belong in Islamic countries if they cannot accept that their religion takes second place to the values instilled in centuries of progressive civilization.

*all Jet Blast colleagues are requested to respect our French friends and colleagues for a decent interval*

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 01:41
From the Guardian a few minutes (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/14/nice-bastille-day-france-attack-promenade-des-anglais-vehicle) ago:
Both French TV station BFM and local newspaper Nice-Matin are reporting that the driver is a 31-year-old with dual French-Tunisian nationality. BFM is quoting a police source via Agence France-Presse who said that an ID card was found inside the truck. Reports say the man was a Nice resident.Update offered without further comment beyond condolences to the people of Nice.

mickjoebill
15th Jul 2016, 01:53
This video is as graphic as it is heart breaking. An gruesome ashphalt killing field. Think twice before watching.
pic.twitter.com/nKeiwYq9VL

If you choose to watch this 50 meter walk along the road you'll agree that the death toll could have been far higher given it travelled 2km.

Mickjoebill

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 02:02
Oh dear, it is now at 77 lost. :{
Per the Guardian:
Christian Estrosi, the president of the Nice region, has told iTélé that the death toll is now 77.
@mickjoebill I'd recommend a warning to that link. Granted, it is someone's blog, and he does offer a warning before anyone can see the video. But it's graphic and harsh.

OldCessna
15th Jul 2016, 02:45
Well its now up to 80 poor souls.

We are probably are at the stage of war now with the radical jihadists. The French Intelligence chief was right and he only made that statement 2 days ago.

War isn't fair and we should not be concerned with political correctness any longer.

Countries are either with us or against us in the effort to get rid of this lot. We all know which countries are not.

AtomKraft
15th Jul 2016, 03:11
You have to wonder how much of this sort of thing a nation can absorb without doing anything.

There has to be a point when the pressure to cry "Enough!" becomes irrestible.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 03:13
The French will react in their own idiom and in their own time. I hope that our leadership on this side of the pond will be supportive of the French when they ask for assistance.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 03:35
Lone,

I crafted and then deleted a long post.

I watched several video's of the carnage in Nice tonight and I got exactly the same feeling of Anger I did when back on 9-11 I watched people jumping from the upper floors of the World Trade Center so they could escape burning to death.

Everyone should watch these video's....no cut away from TV because they are "Too Graphic to be shown on TV...."....yes they are graphic, they are real, and it is the Face of Radical Islamic Terrorism on full display.

Perhaps, by watching these ugly scenes....it will no longer be an esoteric philosophical form of entertainment to argue about on some web site but shock folks into grasping just how real this Evil is and why we must once and for all...deal with it as it needs to be dealt with.


ISIS is guilty of Genocide and Mass Murder....time to pull the their plug and turn there lights out.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 03:40
Oddly enough, SASless, the President sent another five hundred plus boots on the ground into Iraq last week. I don't think they are there for a parade. Last I checked, the major opponent in and around Mosul is ISIS and ISIS affiliated/led groups.

No idea if they are directly related to whomever did this truck killing in Nice, but they are probably ideological cousins. This, if it is indeed an ISIS op as early reports suggest, looks like it is related to some previous events.

Back to those 500+ troops: if the French need a bit more help, I suspect we've some more folks available. That 500 didn't break the bank.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 03:42
ISIS is already claiming responsibility according to some news reports.

By the way....why exactly is Al-Raqqa not looking like the surface of the Moon?

If I can find it on Google Earth....why has not our B-1, B-2, and B-52 Fleets not removed it from the face of the Earth as a start on ridding the World of ISIS and its Cadre?

500 sets of Boots....by the time you use the usual yard stick of ten to one support to Grunt....that gives us a Platoon a of fellows that will tear up things and hurt people.

Am I missing something here in that huge deployment ain't jackshit towards what is going to be required?

mickjoebill
15th Jul 2016, 03:44
Oh dear, it is now at 77 lost. :{
Per the Guardian:

@mickjoebill I'd recommend a warning to that link. Granted, it is someone's blog, and he does offer a warning before anyone can see the video. But it's graphic and harsh.
Done.
The reason for linking is that it reveals the carnage done in just 50 meters.
Following the Beurit truck bomb against the US Marines in 1983 the there was an immediate reaction to protect embassey and government buildings with bollards and barriers.
At the time I was in Washington at Capital Hill which had no significant vehicular barriers, so a police car was assigned, engine kept running as the last form of defence, until heavy duty barriers were installed.

Sadly the same level of increased protection moves a step closer for areas and events where large numbers of the public congregate.
Washington Post says although the truck had to penetrate 3 road check points the promenade was still regarded as a soft target.


Mjb

vapilot2004
15th Jul 2016, 04:22
Of all of the countries Daesh attacks, they could not have attacked a friendlier Western nation to Islamic countries in the Middle East. The moniker is sadly apt, where in Iraq and Syria the meaning is also, "to crush, or to trample underfoot".

TWT
15th Jul 2016, 04:23
why has not our B-1, B-2, and B-52 Fleets not removed it from the face of the Earth as a start on ridding the World of ISIS and its Cadre?


Russia has an S-400 system nearby.That may be one reason.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 04:38
The Russian's just announced a war on terrorism or words to that effect.

Perhaps Messers Obama and Kerry can hit a Reset Button with Medvedev and some sort of Joint Op can be employed.

Is not Kerry in Moscow right now talking that very thing although the DOD is not happy about what the Russians are up to in Syria.

I suppose the B-2 must not be all that Stealthy if one S-400 system is threat enough to stop their use.

Not that Obama is risk averse or anything like that.

EGLD
15th Jul 2016, 05:48
You have to wonder how much of this sort of thing a nation can absorb without doing anything.

There has to be a point when the pressure to cry "Enough!" becomes irrestible.

That point has long passed, the French have already said "enough is enough!".

The problem is that there is nothing they can do to fix this.

AtomKraft
15th Jul 2016, 05:51
EGLD.
You may be right, there.

Thing is, if it can't be sorted in a civilised manner, eventually it will sort itself out in an extremely uncivilised manner.

The French have form on this. Indeed they were busy celebrating the last time the people took matters into their own hands, when this attack took place.

There will be blood.

Wingswinger
15th Jul 2016, 06:47
It's overdue. There are a few areas in the UK that could do with a pull-through with a wire brush and Dettol as well. Before it happens here.

France, my heart bleeds.

FlyMD
15th Jul 2016, 06:59
The reason we don't bomb the hell out of some arab shithole after an event like this is the same as why you don't treat cancer by placing a firecracker in the middle of the tumor.
The bum who did this thing in Nice, whatever his other issues were, woke up one morning, found some of the wrong websites, and then later decided that being a "jihadi warrior" sounded a lot better than just being a "pathetic loser". Grab a gun, a truck and make headlines...simple.

Bad ideas kill people, whether they be called religion or little red book or whatever...

Educate your children and teach them to love liberty. Shun bad ideas. What else can you do?

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 07:15
http://gatesofvienna.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/govcounter.gif

DirtyProp
15th Jul 2016, 07:19
Terribly sorry for my cousins.
A prayer for those poor souls.
:(

HeartyMeatballs
15th Jul 2016, 07:34
Once again I see social media awash with sickeningly fashionable French flag profile pictures. It's luvvies who have caused this. Instead of demonising anyone who dare suggest this is a Muslim related incident they should encourage said community to actually admit there's a problem. Only then can we formulate a solution.

My FB is awash with the professionally offended. I'm pleased that they are. That they expect me to care whilst once again a country and a continent are mourning such a massive loss is the priority.

NutLoose
15th Jul 2016, 07:48
Personally I would run those unsanitised films on the major news channels preceded by a warning to finally get it through people's heads that it is real and let them see the truth, only then hopefully the luvvie brigade will finally get it.

SOPS
15th Jul 2016, 07:49
Could not agree more, Hearty.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 08:14
@mickjoebill Points taken, makes sense.
The reason for linking is that it reveals the carnage done in just 50 meters.
Yeah, and it could have been worse.

Washington Post says although the truck had to penetrate 3 road check points the promenade was still regarded as a soft target. Maybe the check points, even though penetrated, made it less terrible than it was.

Sister lived for a few years in Paris. Traveled all over France. Given how small of a world it is, I wonder if one of her friends was in that crowd. :( I realize that France is a big country and Nice is down on the Med coast (been there twice, in the 80's, nice town). but as noted, it's a small world.

Tragic, but I think the point made by FlyMD is spot on. :(

@SASless - the B-2 IMO does not fit the 4th generation war style of what's going on with this ISIS crowd in terms of "end it once and for all" thoughts. This kind of war doesn't work that way, similar to how in Viet Nam things didn't work as in WW II. I too hope that this horrid thing we and the Russians have in common, this foe, opens a door for our two countries to get closer together rather than further apart. Messy, but maybe a chance to see a few more things from the same direction.

ExXB
15th Jul 2016, 08:19
To steal a theme from R&N I suggest waiting for more data before leaping to conclusions. We don't know who the driver was, although some tabloid rumour says he was a Frenchman of Tunisian extraction, whatever that means. Was he a lone wolf? Does he represent ISIS? We don't know.

This could be Muslim terrorism but it could also be just another nut with a home grown weapon.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 08:26
Don't solely rely on the military fighting the fight, civilians should be doing there bit to piss them off.So more civilians must put themselves in harm's way and potentially incite more violence? I don't much agree with your first statement, but this one is ludicrous.

Eggy, the French came up with the Nation in Arms concept during the French Revolution, a pivotal event of which was being celebrated 14 July. Their national anthem, when one reads the words, alludes to them all rising up and drawing blood from their enemies.

In reference to Yamamoto's cryptic remark about waking a sleeping giant after Pearl Harbor, I wonder if something similar applies here. We shall see.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 08:29
The attacker, identified by a police source as a 31-year-old Tunisian-born Frenchman, also opened fire before police shot him dead [highly unlikely - K]. He had been known to the police for common crimes but not to the intelligence services, the source said.

HeartyMeatballs
15th Jul 2016, 08:29
ExXB - Yes you have a point. We should not jump to conclusions. Perhaps the perpotrator was a scientologist, armish or maybe he didn't follow a region.

But we all know that he will turn out to be a muslim. Let's not waste time
pussyfooting around. I know its fashionable to try an distance the religion of death from what are clearly Muslim inspired acts of evil. But please be realistic.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 08:38
Bombing Syria with B-2 because some crazy guy crush people in France sounds like sanitizing neighbor house with flamethrower because you think that mosquitos from his basement bites you at night.

PS: ISIS is acronym of Islamic State of Iraq etc. Iraq is - as I can understand - a great example of successful US guided democracy building in former dictatorship country... So why you guys want to bomb Syria?

HeartyMeatballs
15th Jul 2016, 08:50
I have never supported boming the middle east. All you will do is get rid oone set of bad barstewards and replace them with another.

Securing the border should always be a priority. The middle east is beyond help. We can't help it but we can try and shield ourselves from it.

We need the Muslim community to come our and say that it does have a problem. Can an alcoholic ever overcome his demons unless he first admits there's a problem?

seen_the_box
15th Jul 2016, 09:02
The issue, as others have already pointed out, is that the solution to this problem is not what we would recognise as 'civilised'. We in the west are ultimately going to have to do some rather unpalatable things to get a grip on this.

charliegolf
15th Jul 2016, 09:21
The issue, as others have already pointed out, is that the solution to this problem is not what we would recognise as 'civilised'. We in the west are ultimately going to have to do some rather unpalatable things to get a grip on this.

Back to the late Allan Clarke, MP. His view on Northern Ireland: we can't win conventionally with these people. But we could go out one night, kill the 400 most influential terrorists and solve the problem for generations. He got into trouble for that thought. Doing 'unpalatable' things can backfire, but something needs to be done.

tartare
15th Jul 2016, 09:34
Bon chance to those flying the Rafales tonight.
Good hunting.

prospector
15th Jul 2016, 09:43
We in the west are ultimately going to have to do some rather unpalatable things to get a grip on this.

Yes, that statement is now very likely to be correct.

But, was it not the west who wished to impose regime change in countries like Iraq, Libya and Syria and carried out some very unpalatable things on their populations that has brought this situation about?

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 09:44
But we could go out one night, kill the 400 most influential terrorists and solve the problem for generations.

Wow!

Doing 'unpalatable' things can backfire, but something needs to be done.

So problem was solved this way? Also can I ask you to elaborate your proposal for 'unpalatable' things in this case? Some kind of St. Bartholomew's Night massacre for Muslims in Europe?

Above The Clouds
15th Jul 2016, 10:01
I suspect that 'Marine Le Pen' may well become very popular with the French elections coming soon.

vapilot2004
15th Jul 2016, 10:02
We in the west are ultimately going to have to do some rather unpalatable things to get a grip on this.


That is one possible way through this.

From the early 20th century forward, the west has already done some unpalatable things in the name of oil interests in the region - unpalatable things that are deeply intertwined in the roots of what we face today.

SOPS
15th Jul 2016, 10:02
I think you are correct, ATC.

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 10:06
Last night, shortly before the terrorist attack in Nice, Boris Johnson was rudely booed by French diplomats while giving a speech at the French embassy in London.
The reason for this undiplomatic behaviour?, his stance on Brexit with its core policy of retaining control of Britain's borders, in order to stop the unchecked flow of migrants and the terrorists among them.

Those same diplomats are hopefully feeling like the twats they are, this morning.

Uncle Fred
15th Jul 2016, 10:07
My French wife raised the worry, obviously shared by many, of just how much fuel this will provide to the efforts of Marine LePen et al.

This could get even uglier unfortunately.

Above The Clouds
15th Jul 2016, 10:13
sitigeltfel
Last night, shortly before the terrorist attack in Nice, Boris Johnson was rudely booed by French diplomats while giving a speech at the French embassy in London.
The reason for this undiplomatic behaviour?, his stance on Brexit with its core policy of retaining control of Britain's borders, in order to stop the unchecked flow of migrants and the terrorists among them.

Those same diplomats are hopefully feeling like the twats they are, this morning.


Uncle Fred
My French wife raised the worry, obviously shared by many, of just how much fuel this will provide to the efforts of Marine LePen et al.

This could get even uglier unfortunately.

I wonder what Angela Merkal is now thinking having allowed 1,000,000+ Syrian refugee's to arrive in Germany, then you realise why Brexit wants control of its borders again.

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 10:18
The terrorist has been named as Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, a delivery driver.

He is known to the police for delinquency and violence but not so far radicalisation.

Fifty of those admitted to hospital were children, of which two have since died.

If you want sources, refer to either Nice Matin (http://www.nicematin.com/) or La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/).

John Hill
15th Jul 2016, 10:19
Now just settle down boys and put your brains in gear just long enough to ask what results the perpetrators of these attacks want.

When you have figured that out then do something different.

seen_the_box
15th Jul 2016, 10:23
My French wife raised the worry, obviously shared by many, of just how much fuel this will provide to the efforts of Marine LePen et al.

I'm certainly not worried by it. I'm looking forward to a FN with more influence.

Uncle Fred
15th Jul 2016, 10:23
Clouds, to answer your question I do not believe Frau Merkel has any regrets or at least regrets that she would admit to. She honestly believes that she is doing the right thing. I watched the interview with her on the Anne Will show and she steadfastly maintained that there was no plan B. That alone shows a desperate lack of reflection in her decision making.

Uncle Fred
15th Jul 2016, 10:29
I'm certainly not worried by it. I'm looking forward to a FN with more influence.
Well to share some common ground Seen, she carries no brief for the current lot in office...a waste of the air they breath indeed.

HeartyMeatballs
15th Jul 2016, 10:32
Frau Merkel is quite happily creating Germanistan. She's risking the safety of law abiding natives throughout Europe.

The UK is and always will be part of Europe. The EU does not hold the trademark to Europe or europeaness. We are taking back control and for the good people of France I hope to god they do too. If it take FN then that is for the people of France to decide.

Uncontrolled access from the east and north Africa with no border controls puts our unarmed citizens in harms way.

We saw that Brussels was a base for Paris attacks. Then the terrorists simply hopped back accrpss Europe.

Europol is broken and worthless.

The EU is over.

MrSnuggles
15th Jul 2016, 10:39
Damn it. ****. I hate this!

I hate opening my newspaper and seeing that people have been murdered by some ignorant ****, from US police or from a lunatic lorry driver.

This has been 40 years in the making. With the US meddling in business they have nothing to do with because of oil. Since 9-11 they stepped up this meddling by war mongering against Iraq for no good reason except oil. And no amount of Brexit can deny that the UK was a willing poodle to the US interests.

Seems like France gets the brunt of it. I am very sad. I love France and the French. They are stubbornly proud, interestingly clever and they do things their way which works for them. But they are an easy target.

I must say I agree with Putin with regards to Syria. Assad is the leader of the country. If the people wants to get rid of him, it is their duty. West should stop meddling everywhere! Help Assad now, let the people get rid of him later.

And goddammit stop the meddling! Let people sort themselves out! Give assistance if needed, that's all.

This is all the result of short thinking meddling in stuff noone should have meddled in in the first place. **** that war in Iraq. See what that brought you. I hate this. I was one of those "peace luvvies" that protested strongly. Coming from Sweden, my protest was null and void. But I was opposed to that from the very beginning and now, Sweden may be influenced by something we didn't even participate in in the first place.

This was stupid from the get go and now French holiday goers are attacked. Damn meddling.

HeartyMeatballs
15th Jul 2016, 10:48
Absolutely. The UK was America's bitch and Blair agreed to support the US regardless. Now many many many times the amount of those killed in 9/11 have died in wars which was nothing more than a show to give the impression that something was being done. Now the middle east is in a complete mess. The world has never been more unstable.

In 2015 ten times the amount of 9/11 deaths were caused by guns, 475 in mass shootings. Nothing is done about that yet some how 9/11 was a free ticket to bomb whoever we wanted.

Although terrible, 9/11 was one day. 16 years on we are still paying the price. We should have just secured the border and left alone. But instead dodgy dossiers and lies lead up to numerous wars.

Bush, Blair and co have blood on their hands. However I don't think itritrs right for us to be punished.

MrSnuggles
15th Jul 2016, 11:20
HeartyMeatBalls

I agree with every single word you are saying. Every. Single. Word. Thankyou.

Unfortunately we ARE being punished... or should I say the French and Belgians. And I hate it.

I can understand why the West is punished because the bombings were totally unjustified and based on lies from an (at that time) impopular leader who wanted to be the cowboy that united the nation. The leader has since retired but the people he affected are still suffering.

Instead of Europe starting to act like a world police, let's just unite and sort out this mess for ourselves. I am sad the Brits are leaving, but it is what it is. Europe has dire straits with Greece and now Italian economy. Poland and Hungary going towards dictatorships. France being attacked. As a Swede, I can say that we don't want or need any kind of federation, thankyouverymuch, but we can definitively take and give help to our fellow Europeans.

Right now it feels like Germany is running around trying to put out fires everywhere. We should get our ELECTED officials talking seriously about how to sorts ourselves out. Together. All of us.

cjm_2010
15th Jul 2016, 11:25
As a few have already pointed out, Daesh are carrying out these attacks to divide western society. It's pretty obvious. They want us to start turning on the peaceful, moderate Muslims living amongst us & create an atmosphere of alienation and retribution.

It's basically their entire recruitment model. And by calling for a fire and brimstone response, people are pretty much giving them what they want.

SOPS
15th Jul 2016, 11:26
Europe could start by securing its external borders. And then go from there, but is it too late to actually do that?

MrSnuggles
15th Jul 2016, 11:35
cjm_2010 and SOPS

Yes, I think a combination of those two would be beneficial to us. As I said: we need to sort this out and focus on our problems. Combining your suggestions would be one way to do this, I think a very good way.

EDIT:
What we really need to do is stop meddling. It was the meddling that started all this.

Machrihanish
15th Jul 2016, 11:36
Clouds, to answer your question I do not believe Frau Merkel has any regrets or at least regrets that she would admit to. She honestly believes...

Only days ago she professed in her latest interview she'd take any decision again, in the same way, qu'elle ne regrette rien.

Machrihanish
15th Jul 2016, 11:59
to regret those words 'qu'elle ne regrette rien'
Those are my paraphrase of her on-going die-hard complacency, just to be clear.

Cazalet33
15th Jul 2016, 12:03
Europe could start by securing its external borders. And then go from there, but is it too late to actually do that?

Difficult question.

At one level, it is too late, ie it should have been done two decades ago. At another, now is the time to start creating a meaningful external border for all of Europe.

The fact that a million illegals, ie criminals, entered Europe on a criminal basis last year is clear evidence that the border is practically non-existent.

Not entirely sure what that's to do with this nutter though.

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 12:22
A French citizen, named as Nathalie Duck, has just been interviewed about her role in the aftermath. Fighting off tears she explained how she had to suspend her fear of confronting injury to help the wounded, while sitting in pools of blood. She explained that she had to cope with this vision of hell for an hour until help arrived (given the level of carnage, that is understandable).

Hopefully her efforts helped to save or comfort those unfortunate enough to be injured and that they receive recognition for their selfless courage.

A plague on those who still try to divert attention from the root cause of these attacks with their excuses and platitudes.

Machrihanish
15th Jul 2016, 12:27
At one level, it is too late,
Rarely is it too late to try and stop a problem from getting even bigger with every passing day.

EU governments carrying on as normal will take them, take us all, in a zone risking pogroms one way or the other.

Obviously the attacker is not an immediate immigrant but, pending our learning better, n-th generation offspring of a former French protectorate's ethnicity, and from his reported full name likely muslim.

However, having had a job as a delivery driver (I read), he might figure statistically as 'integrated' - till yesterday.

Plus, in Germany we have seen children of rather well situated (christian or secular) families, like studying law or engineering, who took around towards Islam, and to fight in Syria.

Thus, Islam may play a big role in what's going on, but there's more to the problem.

rustle
15th Jul 2016, 12:55
...And by calling for a fire and brimstone response, people are pretty much giving them what they want.


No, what these scum want is to kill people who don't share their perverted religion. Stop victim-blaming the innocents murdered by these scum.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 13:00
Did not the War in Afghanistan and Iraq occur AFTER 9-11 and the murder of 2900 People of multiple Nationalities?

I suppose you forget the age old British ways of carrying out punitive actions against tribes, clans, and nations that harmed Brits down through the Years?

We just 550 troops to Iraq and the U.K. sent 250....so Cameron is Obama's Bitch is he?

yellowtriumph
15th Jul 2016, 13:01
No doubt the head honchos at the EU will have a working lunch, declare that they will do everything possible to fight this 'evil', then instigate nothing.

Then we all wait the next outrage, next working lunch etc etc.

EGLD
15th Jul 2016, 13:30
No, what these scum want is to kill people who don't share their perverted religion. Stop victim-blaming the innocents murdered by these scum.

I sort of agree with your sentiment.

It's easy to navel gaze and explain horrific acts like this as a result of our meddling in the middle east, but these attacks all have their roots in Islam.

I doubt anyone in Nice last night was part of the decision making for invading Iraq, we should stop looking to deflect blame onto the victims.

As to what we do I really don't know, I don't think this problem is going to go away for generations.

I think it has been caused by the West's obsession with multi-culturalism. Whilst well intended, some cultures cannot mix because they despise each other.

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 13:30
Loud boos from bystanders as President Hollande and his entourage arrive at the scene of the attack.

RexBanner
15th Jul 2016, 13:30
As alluded to here, Osama Bin Laden's stated goal and strategy when attacking the United States on 9/11 was to draw them into a wider conflict in the Middle East in the hope of radicalising Muslims both at home and abroad. He succeeded spectacularly on both these fronts. 9/11 should have been treated like the crime that it was, not an act of war. It was not carried out by a nation state so waging war in the Middle East was never the answer nor was ever going to be the answer. Our response to the twin towers coming down has led to the world being how we see it today.

Andy_S
15th Jul 2016, 13:57
It was not carried out by a nation state so waging war in the Middle East was never the answer nor was ever going to be the answer. Our response to the twin towers coming down has led to the world being how we see it today.

But it was a crime which was so dreadful that it couldn’t go unanswered. And the USA response did emasculate Bin Laden and the Al-Quaida leadership by forcing them into exile as well as overthrowing the regime which had allowed them to live openly and operate freely in Afghanistan. None of this had anything to do with IS. If only it had been left like that……..

lomapaseo
15th Jul 2016, 14:08
You can't stop the thoughts (beliefs, hatred, etc.)

One has to minimize the means and/or control their access.

I don't suggest how, but I will read for others, suggesting along these lines rather than suggesting retribution or blame.

Pace
15th Jul 2016, 14:15
There is nothing you can do with this new style one man band terrorism
At the moment for some reason attention has been on
France but ?
Our London tube system is massively exposed with no security
Consider airport security and London tube zero security on a Friday night ((

RexBanner
15th Jul 2016, 14:25
Andy S, it is wholely relevant to IS/Isis/Daesh because they were borne out of the intervention (illegal war) in Iraq. By blowing up countless civilians all the United States did was to ensure decades of hatred from Muslims towards the west and increased radicalisation. Exactly what Bin Laden aimed to achieve. If they had stopped in Afghanistan that might have been something but to then wage their illegal war of aggression in Iraq has led to all these suicide attacks we now see on a growing basis in the West. Something that was unimaginable just a few years ago. Perpetuating the cycle of violence does nothing except make things worse.

(Apologies I've just seen that you've echoed my point about leaving things after Afghanistan).

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 14:25
As alluded to here, Osama Bin Laden's stated goal and strategy when attacking the United States on 9/11 was to draw them into a wider conflict in the Middle East in the hope of radicalising Muslims both at home and abroad. He succeeded spectacularly on both these fronts. 9/11 should have been treated like the crime that it was, not an act of war. It was not carried out by a nation state so waging war in the Middle East was never the answer nor was ever going to be the answer. Our response to the twin towers coming down has led to the world being how we see it today.
Rex, when I observed to SASless that it isn't that kind of war -- war between nation states -- I suppose I should have addressed you directly. There's more than one kind of war and you have no hope of winning one if you don't know the kind that you are in. IF you want to stay in denial, and pretend that war is only between nation states, then I'll ask you to catch up to about the last 40 years of human history. They've left your understanding in the dust. The pretense that Daesh only exists due to a war is at best a half truth. The ground and ideology was already fertile with what that grew into, thanks to multiple axes of tension in the Middle East.
Perpetuating the cycle of violence does nothing except make things worse.
I will point out to you that nobody in Daesh cares about your hand wringing about that. They perpetuate it on their end because they actively want to make it worse. It is to their benefit to destabilize the "status quo" because in that realm lies their perceived opportunity to become a power in their region. You might want to pay attention to the anti Crusader narrative, which was resurrected within the last century in part due to the false history of the Crusades being rewritten by, among others, the French as the took their place in the post WW I middle east. The Franks are a symbol of the current image of the "Crusader" symbol being used and exploited in the rhetoric of people like Osama Bin Laden and various leaders of groups who want to "restore the caliphate" in one form or another.

Now go back and look at the intent of a terror attack, like what just happened in Nice: what is its purpose?
Was it part of a larger plan, or was it as some suspect, the case of someone trying to be part of something bigger thanks to buying into poisonous rhetoric? (I've seen it suggested that such was the motive behind Oswald shooting Kennedy: a nobody wanting to make a difference, to be a big deal). Our recent sniper in Dallas seems to fit that mode as well.

It's a fusion of multiple influences. I don't buy your single cause and effect, because it's far more complicated than that.

jcjeant
15th Jul 2016, 14:26
Hi,

Nothing indicate so far a muslim terrorist attack in Nice !
Remember Lubitz !!!
I doubt Daesh will even claim the Nice slaughter

Cazalet33
15th Jul 2016, 14:30
Osama Bin Laden's stated goal and strategy when attacking the United States on 9/11 was to draw them into a wider conflict in the Middle East

He made his goal very clear: to get the Infidel troops to hell out of the Land of the Holy Places.

The bin Laden family's closest allies, the Bush clan, complied.

The Empire's Central Command was moved 'out of country' and was set up on the sub-peninsula known in Arabic as al Jazireh. Qatar.

Satisfied, al Qaida never attacked The Empire again, not directly, anyway.

The Empire still executed bin Laden though. Quite rightly too. 'Live by the sword, die by the sword', and all that.

RexBanner
15th Jul 2016, 14:37
Lonewolf, exactly. It's not a war between nation states. Therefore you can't use military methods. By the USA taking a sledgehammer to the Iraq nut, they opened Pandora's box by removing the only thing (Saddam) that was keeping that country stable. Not only that but they then poured petrol all over the fire by killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis in the process.

Now if you consider what then happens to the pool of potential recruits to the radical Islam cause when you go killing thousands of children, mothers and fathers in what was a war without justification. Do you think that pool of recruits has just become smaller? Or...big hint here....much much bigger?

This is a battle, as much as anything, for the moral high ground. Because Daesh would have a much harder time recruiting young people to go slaughtering innocent civilians if they weren't able to brainwash their potential "soldiers" with images of the infidel killing tens of thousands of people in their homeland. So you've hit the nail squarely on the head as to why we can't treat this as a conventional war but sadly your interpretation of it is only going to lead to decades if not centuries more of this stuff going on..

Cazalet you're completely wrong. Yes he wanted the US troops out of the region but that was the long game. In the short term he wanted to draw the United States into battle in the region with the square aim of radicalisation of the neutral Muslim population and bleeding the US dry financially. There are many many interviews on this topic. He had seen exactly the same tactics work to perfection when he and the mujahideen took on (and defeated) the USSR in Afghanistan (ironically armed by the USA, when will they learn?).

alwayzinit
15th Jul 2016, 14:38
Pace, I am not so sure, in recent years the Western Police forces have been "brainwashed" with trying not to "offend" anyone rather than preventing crime. This has led to many in law enforcement to be reluctant to go on their "gut feelings" for fear of negative repercussions later.
The lorry that did this was parked up for 9 HOURS before the "Soldier for the Religion of Peace" began his attack. It was looked at 3 TIMES at checkpoints.
Why were there no full vehicle search orders from those in charge?
It appears that our Leaders today have failed to learn from the leaders in our not too distant past. (What a surprise!)
To fight this type of attack there are grounds, just like in WW2, where certain freedoms are suspended. The UK's Anti-Terrorism Act had to be voted on regularly for it to remain in effect.
You cannot fight an opponent, willing to use suicide tactics and total disregard for loss of lives, with harsh language and platitudes.
Western Civilization only became the way it is today by being utterly ruthless in the first place.
Regardless of how repellent it may seem to those who abhor violence, our freedoms were ALL won by visiting violence on those who would deny the freedoms we hold so dear.
Once again a threat to our way of life has reared it's ugly vile head, spouting hate and barbarity.
There is only ONE way this fight ends. If we do not want to be washed away into the mists of time it is time to get off our knees, stop ringing our hands and MAKE our representatives DO something about the cause.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 14:49
> Western Civilization only became the way it is today by being utterly ruthless in the first place.

Yep. Red Indians and Australian aborigines can confirm your brave statement. As a great armchair warmonger what you'll recommend to stop suicide attackers in Europe? Nuke Middle East? Send pox blankets to refugee camps?

Planemike
15th Jul 2016, 14:52
If we do not want to be washed away into the mists of time it is time to get off our knees, stop ringing our hands and MAKE our representatives DO something about the cause.


What would you have them DO? Best if they DO nothing........ We are where we are because the US lead by George Bush did something, just wasn't the effective thing to DO.......

Out Of Trim
15th Jul 2016, 14:54
So what do we do?

Enough with the hand wringing!

My thoughts are with the innocent French people and the families having to deal with this carnage brought to them by Islamist terrorists.

alwayzinit
15th Jul 2016, 14:57
Kulverstukas, you are correct. Please show me ANY dominant civilsation in history that has not used violence to achieve supremacy.
It is true that all empires fall eventually, primarily because those who inherit those empires forgot how they were formed.
Now I do not know about you but I would rather my Great Grandchildren inherited being top of the dung pile, that we call the World, than being somewhere more odorous.
It is something that is worth fighting for, imho, if you don't agree, that is a freedom that good men died for to allow you to disagree.

Planemike
15th Jul 2016, 14:58
My thoughts are with the innocent French people and the families having to deal with this carnage brought to them by Islamist terrorists.


Mine too..........

Harley Quinn
15th Jul 2016, 14:58
> Western Civilization only became the way it is today by being utterly ruthless in the first place.

Yep. Red Indians and Australian aborigines can confirm your brave statement. As a great armchair warmonger what you'll recommend to stop suicide attackers in Europe? Nuke Middle East? Send pox blankets to refugee camps?

Like your thinking, what a cracking idea

meadowrun
15th Jul 2016, 14:58
When you have figured that out then do something different.


And what, Mr. Hill would you propose? Don't waste words. Make it something somewhat effective, something that might possibly have some real effect on the problem. "Something different" does not help one little bit.

RexBanner
15th Jul 2016, 14:59
Lonewolf the idea that Isis only exists because of the Iraq war is not a "half truth" (or whatever you would like to call it when you wash your hands of the blood of all the innocents that the USA slaughtered in their war of vendetta against Iraq) it is the truth in its ENTIRETY. Saddam was a brutal man, a total and utter assh*le but the simple fact of the matter is that he kept radical Islam and all the fanaticism completely and utterly subjugated. Well that's until you waded in there and destroyed the country anyway. Thanks for that by the way, because the fallout isn't in the United States, it's here in Europe.

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 15:03
Lonewolf, exactly. It's not a war between nation states. Therefore you can't use military methods.
Your logic is incorrect. Even in a war not between states some military tools are apt for a problem set. The question is "which tools?" The "bomb them into the stone age" wasn't a valid option in Viet Nam, it wasn't a valid option with Iran -- since the saber rattling with them has been on and off since about 2005, I chose them as an example, there are others -- and it isn't a valid option now.

Lucky for my country, we've got a lot of different tools to choose from, to include a variety of non-mil tools as well. It isn't an either or choice, it's the package. My concern is the skill and art of those making the choices, but that's a different topic concerning what response France and the French make to this latest assault on their soil by cadres of, and supporters of, Daesh.

I am interested to see how that works out, and as above, I have hopes but (no certainty) that beyond rhetoric our nation provides the French assistance in whatever they choose. Unlike some of our political pundits over here, I understood why the French chose to sit out Iraq.

alwayzinit
15th Jul 2016, 15:09
Plane Mike, I agree totally that we are at this point due to massive cock ups in the past, no doubt.
However, no fight was ever won by harping back over past mistakes, we have to face, regardless how unpleasant, the choices to sort this bloody mess out. Learn from the past mistakes but do not be hamstrung by them.
To do nothing, as you suggest, gives those who would see our house brought down the initiative. No war has EVER been won by allowing one's enemy the freedom to choose where and when to strike.
Thanks to the likes of Blair, Bush and their henchmen we are where we are. That fact does not change to need to address this problem with the required diligence and vigour.

meadowrun
15th Jul 2016, 15:12
He made it through how many "barriers"?
French never heard of "StopSticks - SpikeStrips"?
I hear they are cheap enough.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 15:13
This "War" is unlike any we have had in the past probably....but it is not a one "theater" Conflict.

it is not just a Terrorist campaign against the West but also involves Centuries old hatred and conflict between two Islamic Sects.....and also now includes a self proclaimed Nation State.....ISIS.

No Sledge Hammers needed or very useful in going after the parts of the Support network but there are Targets that do invite massive aerial bombing by Heavy Aircraft. Likewise there are targets suited for Precision Air Strikes and Drone Attacks, just as there are Targets that are right for Direct Action Attacks by SpecOps and other Land Forces.

Intelligence and Counter Terrorism operations are part of the mix needed.

Western Militaries have the assets required to carry out all of those tasks if a genuine Coalition of the Willing come together and dedicate themselves to ridding the World of these Bad Actors.

What is missing is the "Willingness".

Obama certainly has demonstrated that ably assisted by Clinton in formulating the failed strategy and foreign policy that affords ISIS and the Radical Islamic Terrorist organizations the freedom and flexibility to not only push their Agenda but succeed in doing so with scant effect to stop them thus far.

I submit we must use which ever "Hammer" fits the need....with no upper limit on where that takes us....as we should be flexible enough to use our advantage against their weakness.

Logistics is the key to Victory in all Wars.

They cannot defeat ours....but we can destroy theirs.

With no support, logistics, or safe haven....they will be forced out into the open where they can be dealt with effectively.

We must also factor in the age old conflict between two Sects of Islam....Sunni and Shia...and how that plays out in all these to include the various Nation States allied to each side of that historical conflict.

We cannot do nothing....or continue to allow these attacks on our People. Turning the other Cheek with this bunch of nutters only gets you slapped on the other Cheek.

If you do not like my plan.....please do tell us how you would bring an end to all this violence being perpetrated against innocent people by the Radical Islamic Terrorists?

Lonewolf_50
15th Jul 2016, 15:21
Sadness. The dead body count is up to 84, last I saw it was 80. :(This "War" is unlike any we have had in the past probably....but it is not a one "theater" Conflict.
True.
Western Militaries have the assets required to carry out all of those tasks if a genuine Coalition of the Willing come together and dedicate themselves to ridding the World of these Bad Actors. What is missing is the "Willingness". Back to the Army Library of Lessons Learned, Viet Nam 101, without political will you can't win a war. (And probably should not fight one).

About logistics: in the general mix of people at odds with ISIS, there are Quislings a plenty in places like Turkey and Saudi Arabia ... and yet they are allegedly (formally) on side with 'us' whomever 'us' is. (Some interesting info of late on how many years the petrol routes into Turkey were operating, and who made a profit. See PM's son in Ankara for one ...)
With no support, logistics, or safe haven....they will be forced out into the open where they can be dealt with effectively.
What if they go deeper underground and hide, awaiting a new opportunity?
If you do not like my plan.....please do tell us how you would bring an end to all this violence being perpetrated against innocent people by the Radical Islamic Terrorists? It appears that polling a few PPRuNesters arrives at a plan called "Blame GW Bush" and "Blame Blair." Not sure that plan will work.

I'd rather know what plan the French have. Mr Obama likes that lead from behind deal, so maybe it's best that the plan be a French one. (But not another Plan XVII :eek:)

Pain in the R's
15th Jul 2016, 15:27
Islam is at war with itself but the sad fact is that where Christian counties have accepted Muslims in their millions they also become a target from home grown hate.

There has been much criticism of Eastern European countries who have refused to take Muslim refugees who are trying to flee other Muslims but who can blame them. These countries are almost exclusively Christian and they don't have a problem with terrorism. France has 5 million Muslims and has 5 million people who could be radicalised.

For whatever reason Muslims don't integrate and don't want to integrate and that is the problem that will never be solved.

er340790
15th Jul 2016, 15:35
outdated AK-47 rifles

Firstly, let me assure anyone in any doubt that there is nothing outdated about the business-end of an AK47.

Secondly, what France is experiencing is savagery. The unfortunate thing is that savagery has the tendency to be the common denominator. If you wish to defeat it, then you have to take the gloves off for as long as is necessary, to outmatch such savagery. (Very much in line with Alan Clark's comment.)

Monsieur le President (nice haircut btw) with his limp platitudes of "thoughts 'n' prayers" and his "solidarity with the victims" is playing straight into the FN's hands. People are screaming for action and protection. When they see their Govt cannot provide it, they will turn to people (however nasty) who say they can. Just watch it happen.

There is no simple solution. The most haunting thing is the quote from a 4th Century Roman Centurion... "The Barbarians always win in the end."

This is all going to get much worse before it gets better...

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 15:40
If you have your Head stuck down a gopher hole like the legendary Ostrich....it is very hard to see what is going on around you....and all that shows of your effort is you showing your ass for all to see.




https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13669129_10209627626597840_7232927211179413971_n.jpg?oh=d178 df1a0d24ff1366fa24ac2c6ebaf4&oe=57F3E605

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 15:41
It appears that polling a few PPRuNesters arrives at a plan called "Blame GW Bush" and "Blame Blair." Not sure that plan will work.

I have read a fair bit of history and can't recall that pair being around in the 7th century when the trouble kicked off.

The usual suspects always pick their "flavour of the month" bogeyman to suit their agenda and align him/them to fit their imaginary timeline.

Curious Pax
15th Jul 2016, 15:52
There's some irony in the perceived wisdom that US public opinion (other countries also) is resistant to a ground war against ISIS due to the inevitable body bag count. This is so due to the death toll over the years in Iraq - as others have said life might have been a bit more straightforward if Bush Jr. had stopped after Afghanistan and not continued the adventure, aided and abetted by Blair and others. Wouldn't have been peace and roses, but probably not the current state of affairs.

meadowrun
15th Jul 2016, 16:27
He told officers that he was delivering ice-cream to the area and was allowed to park on the waterfront for several hours



There is no refrigeration unit on that truck.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 16:37
9 hours waiting in restricted zone at empty tented lorry with faked weapon, but without freezer and feed police with "ice cream delivery" nonsense? Something just doesn't add up.

er340790
15th Jul 2016, 16:42
I've changed my mind...

In the past, I was always tacitly in favour of media outlets not showing the harrowing scenes after such attacks. Tbh I think the time has now come for them to be shown on-line with suitable warnings. If you really want to know what ISIS ideology represents, take a look, it is the bloodied bodies of our friends and children lying and dying in our streets.

The event that first changed things for me was the downing of the MAS 777 over Ukraine. It all seemed so distant and impersonal at the time. It was only weeks later when I inadvertently came across images of dead humans in whose country I had lived for 7 years, whose broken and bloated bodies had been left out in the sun for 3 days that the true horror of the event really sank in.

Sometimes we need that shock, if only to get our heads out of our a55es. :{

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 16:52
A talking head on Sky news is currently interviewing another talking head from something called "Collective against Islamophobia in France".
I bet the fool never stops for a minute to consider the reason for his quest.

Uncle Fred
15th Jul 2016, 16:55
If we think of the "normal" elements of national power being within the DIME paradigm, the challenge will be to see how those can be employed, if at all, to fight this threat. I agree with Lonewolf that this problem definitely takes some very serious thinking.

One wonders if the pessimistic scenario put forth by Michel Houllebecq is more reality than a fictional conceit for a narrative. He seemed to have been on to something...

VP959
15th Jul 2016, 17:05
Islam is at war with itself but the sad fact is that where Christian counties have accepted Muslims in their millions they also become a target from home grown hate.

There has been much criticism of Eastern European counties who have refused to take Muslim refugees who are trying to flee other Muslims but who can blame them. These countries are almost exclusively Christian and they don't have a problem with terrorism. France has 5 million Muslims and has 5 million people who could be radicalised.

For whatever reason Muslims don't integrate and don't want to integrate and that is the problem that will never be solved.
Sadly much of this is true, although I sincerely wish it wasn't.

I live in an area of the UK with very few Muslims. A little over 6 months ago I decided that I'd like to find out a bit more about Islam, really out of curiosity, but also because I thought that the way the few local Muslims scurried in, and out, of the local Muslim Association (which is also their mosque, and has been there for at least 30 years that I can remember) looked as if they felt threatened.

As far as I know there has never been any anti-Muslim activity at all here; they are a small minority of mainly older people of Iranian descent, many having fled Iran at the time of the revolution that overthrew the Shah.

I wrote to them, explaining that I was curious about Islam, retired, and not a follower of any particular religion, although I had been raised as a Christian (of the RC persuasion originally).

I had thought that they might be prepared to meet me, perhaps even offer to teach me a little about Islam, so that I could better understand world events. The reply I first received from the Imam was curt, almost to the point of being rude, telling me that they were "very private" and had no interest in talking to anyone that was not a Muslim.

The curious thing was that about a week later I received an email from one of the members, apologising for the letter sent by the Imam and asking if I would like to meet him, somewhere well away from the Muslim Association, as he would be more than happy to talk about Islam with me.

I agreed to meet him, and we've since become friends. I've learned a lot more about Islam, he's probably learned a bit about Christianity, atheism and the benefits of tolerance. The humorous thing is we now meet in my local pub (although he sticks to soft drinks), because he knows it's the one place where he's extremely unlikely to run into a member of the local association.

His view is that the majority of the Muslims here don't want to integrate and don't want to accept living with people of other faiths. He's as worried about radical Islam as anyone I've met and is concerned that there are just far too many Muslim associations and Mosques that have the same outlook as ours; isolationist and intolerant of anyone who is non-Muslim. There's no threat of extremism here, as the founders of our local Muslim Association are here because they fled from Islamic extremism, but it's very easy to see, if the attitude of our local association is a reasonable benchmark, how an isolationist policy could become an extremist one as younger people join and have a greater say in what is taught.

PingDit
15th Jul 2016, 17:21
VP, How old do you need to be to realise you're being 'groomed'?

ZeBedie
15th Jul 2016, 17:35
I think all French police are armed? It took a good few rounds and looking at the holes in the cab, several magazines were emptied.

Had it happened in the UK, what if there had been no armed police officer in the area? Is it time for all, or at least most UK police to be armed?

VP959
15th Jul 2016, 17:40
VP, How old do you need to be to realise you're being 'groomed'?
The chap's the same age as me, retired, we share a lot of interests, he had a similar technical education to me (before the Islamic revolution in Iran), I knew Tehran reasonably well from having spent time there in 1976 and he's originally from Tehran.

We have far more in common that our two main differences, race and religion. We even share very similar views on politics. He really does despair of the way the teaching of Islam is both being distorted and not being brought up to date. His view is that if Islam, and the teachings of Muhammed had been revised over the years, to bring them into the context of the time, much as Christianity has done with the teachings of Jesus Christ, then most of the problems we see today would not have occurred.

One thing I've come to realise is that modern Islam is very similar to modern Christianity, with Jesus Christ being revered as a prophet, and his teachings respected and taught alongside those of other prophets. I was surprised at how much of the Qur'an is made up of teachings that are much the same as the Bible, but told from a different, but not disrespectful, perspective.

Do I trust my friend? Absolutely, and I look forward to our chats in the pub every couple of weeks.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 17:55
Zeb.....you are entirely correct but shall be seen as speaking blatant heresy!

Everyone knows that Plod in their Hi-Vis Vest armed with a Truncheon and the absolute knowledge that a simple..." 'ello there....what might you be doing?" would stop any Terrorist in his tracks.

I bet the reason for the number of bullet holes in the truck and the Terrorist is the French Police ran out of ammunition considering what the guy had just done!

If so....I would suggest they issue extra magazines for their Weapons before the next opportunity they have to take similar action.

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 18:01
I think all French police are armed? It took a good few rounds and looking at the holes in the cab, several magazines were emptied.

Had it happened in the UK, what if there had been no armed police officer in the area? Is it time for all, or at least most UK police to be armed?

Gendarmes and Police Nationale generally carry weapons, but Police Municipale, who are locally appointed, are not all armed.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 18:02
It's not makes a lot of difference if they are armed or not:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vadim_panov/7105964/159770/159770_900.jpg

sitigeltfel
15th Jul 2016, 18:10
It's not makes a lot of difference if they are armed or not:

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/vadim_panov/7105964/159770/159770_900.jpg

That photo is misleading. The police were shooting from the right side of the truck towards the drivers seat on the left. Bear in mind, any shots fired too far to the left side could have hit the crowd.

Planemike
15th Jul 2016, 18:12
Is it time for all, or at least most UK police to be armed?


No, no, absolutely NOT.............!!!! Take a look across the Atlantic.

ZeBedie
15th Jul 2016, 18:38
Take a look across the Atlantic.

France and Germany may be more relevant.

TEEEJ
15th Jul 2016, 18:54
Kulverstukas wrote

It's not makes a lot of difference if they are armed or not:

As already pointed out the bulk of the shots were from the right hand side.

e5YjpM1lUQI&feature=related

scr1
15th Jul 2016, 19:25
I think all French police are armed? It took a good few rounds and looking at the holes in the cab, several magazines were emptied.

Had it happened in the UK, what if there had been no armed police officer in the area? Is it time for all, or at least most UK police to be armed?

Armed officers' 'break' could spark new debate - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-36771928)

Maybe the armed police are in the wrong place?? Dingwall of all places

TEEEJ
15th Jul 2016, 19:38
TWT wrote,

Russia has an S-400 system nearby.That may be one reason.

Russia having S-400 in Syria doesn't stop US or Coalition aircraft from operating there. It is a myth.

US military spokesman Col. Steven Warren 2nd December covered that back in 2015 during a briefing to the press.

I can confirm Russias S-400 air defence missiles are in Syria and they are operational .... we assess no change in Russian intent towards Coalition aircraft and we expect Russia will continue to abide by the Memorandum of Understanding.

USAF B-52s recently took over from the B-1s in Iraq and Syria. ISIS were releasing images of the B-52s over Syria last month.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CjuFQSBXIAAUVjs.jpg

http://isis.liveuamap.com/en/2016/30-may-syria-isis-films-what-appears-to-be-a-b52-on-a-combat

The US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) stormed into the Isis stronghold of Manbij yesterday with the support of US B-52 bombers and special forces after a three-week siege.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/squabbles-between-us-allies-threaten-advance-on-raqqa-3b8z78hb5

https://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2016/06/22/syriaus-b52-seen-over-manbij-since-this-morning/

Out Of Trim
15th Jul 2016, 19:38
Do I trust my friend? Absolutely, and I look forward to our chats in the pub every couple of weeks.

But do you trust his friends in the local Muslim Association?

Does it not seem strange to you that he doesn't want to be seen meeting you by his friends? There are obviously elements of his association that would not be pleased. I wonder why... Maybe they are more radical and your friend is scared that they might find out he is talking to the infidel foe.


The photo of the truck windscreen shows bullet holes fired from inside the truck according to a witness I heard on the radio today.

Toadstool
15th Jul 2016, 19:49
Good to see the usual suspects, post 105, using this to try to score political points at a time like this.

Class, it can't be bought.

NutLoose
15th Jul 2016, 19:55
You also do not know what he had in the cab, for all we know he could of had 1 inch plate in the doors. I hope that brave guy on the bike is still with us.

Pontius Navigator
15th Jul 2016, 19:58
The idea of turning Al Raqqa or what ever into the backside of the Moon is asinine. This is not WW 2 and total war. There is no option for civilian non-combatants to flee the war zone

Toadstool
15th Jul 2016, 20:00
PN

I completely agree. There are some people who are still fighting WW2 or Vietnam with absolutely no idea what is really going on over there.

Fantasists fighting the war before the last two. Times have moved on, as has warfare.

Last I checked, we don't carpet bomb civilians.

Chesty Morgan
15th Jul 2016, 20:10
Yeah, but...America **** yeah! Hoorah.

Is more or less their attitude.

SASless
15th Jul 2016, 20:28
We are in the practice of giving advance warning are we not?

Roads or cross country....put the Flip Flops into gear and get moving.

Ah....but what if the ISIS Fighters used Human Shields...then what...right?

Last night was no Notice and intentional killing and maiming of Innocent People....probably over Two Hundred from the sounds of the Casualty Reports.....Ten Children so far by News Reports.

I quit worrying about Political Correctness when the first WTC Jumper hit the pavement.

Toadstool
15th Jul 2016, 20:32
Political correctness is not about killing thousands of civilians.

Unless you value their lives less. Thats telling.

I quit worrying about Political Correctness when the first WTC Jumper hit the pavement.

Thankfully, Patraeus and McChrystal, and their successors, are much better at this sort of modern warfare. Let the dinosaurs and those that sanction mass murder stay in the past.

Chesty Morgan
15th Jul 2016, 20:32
So let's carpet bomb innocent civilians in retaliation?

Toadstool
15th Jul 2016, 20:42
Yeah

killing innocent civilians in Al Raqqah is divine retribution apparently.

I wonder if this will stop this type of attack? Actually I don't. I know, as do many others, that this will only breed more of the same. There are some people who get this type of warfare, and there are others who clearly don't. Dinosaurs.

911 was horrific. I myself wanted the death of everyone even remotely associated with it. Does this give us carte blanche to do worse? Some would think it does, as they are on the side of the good guys. Tens, nay hundreds of thousands of muslims have been killed as part of policies enacted after 911. At what point is it assuaged?

Its understandable. I used to hear people during the troubles in Ireland saying that the solution was to nuke 'em.

Kulverstukas
15th Jul 2016, 21:31
Clinton's "Wow!" on Gaddafi death is the things money can't buy. For everything else, there's MasterCard...

Tankertrashnav
15th Jul 2016, 21:43
Today 12 Muslims entertained a very appreciative mainly non Muslim crowd in London. I refer of course to the Pakistan cricket XI, plus the England all rounder Moeen Ali.

As far as I'm aware nobody at Lords was advocating getting rid of all the Muslims out of the country, even the one with the big beard on the England side when he only managed to score a disappointing 23!

Yet we are still seeing the usual suspects on here who see the word "Muslim" and instantly assume "terrorist". It reminds me of the 60's and 70's when certain people wanted all the Irish deported from the mainland back to Ireland

Really sad.

cjm_2010
15th Jul 2016, 21:46
No, what these scum want is to kill people who don't share their perverted religion. Stop victim-blaming the innocents murdered by these scum.

I don't see how you could possibly interpret my post as victim blaming?

Anyway, you're right. The 'scum' are indeed 'scum' and they are (on the face of it) determined to spread their version of 'Islam', which bears very little resemblance to the version followed the absolutely overwhelming majority of Muslims (billions!) worldwide. If every Muslim followed Daesh doctrine we'd be embroiled in a world war. It's as simple as that.

You are also correct with the term 'perverted' - they have hijacked and twisted the principles of a fundamentally peaceful belief system to suit their own agenda (sound familiar?).

It's also easy to forget that Daesh / ISIS kill more muslims daily than the entirety of western powers combined. The populations they enslave and repress with their medieval governance hate them just as much as us - if not more.

They are currently losing, big style, both militarily and with recruitment. So they'll organise and execute attacks like the ones we've recently seen on the French to stoke up internal cultural conflict & draw in the mentally unstable and alienated to their cause. And it is clearly working.

galaxy flyer
15th Jul 2016, 22:38
We learned what it takes to turn violent militarism into pacifism in 1945. There was not much squimishness in the West about unleashing our militaries against Dresden or Tokyo. They're now quite pacific. It can be done again.

Does anyone doubt Islamic State would not carpet bomb London, Paris or NYC if it were within their power?

CJM, They are doing everything possible to turn into a world war, a few more successful attacks and the "peaceful" types will join the battle--that's their aim. Most victors come from very small subsets of the general population. The American Revolution was begun by only several hundred merchant-class types in Boston.

CM

This is war, whether desired by us not. How many more attacks should we accept meekly? War is a test of wills, about one side imposing their will on the counterparty. Who's doing it better?

Prediction: a summer of these kind of attacks, Trump wins with 40 states voting for him.
GF

Chesty Morgan
15th Jul 2016, 23:17
GF, who said anything about being meek?

Remember it is the meek who will inherit the earth...if that's alright with them.

seen_the_box
15th Jul 2016, 23:38
Nice attack: Gingrich wants 'Sharia test' for US Muslims - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36806380)

Comments such as these which were previously only publicly stated by the more "extreme" elements are starting to move into the mainstream. It's about time! I suspect that it won't be long before more mainstream politicians start talking openly of internment.

SASless
16th Jul 2016, 01:06
What the Man said referred to Non-Citizens who are in the United States who adhere to or wish to continue to adhere to Sharia Law and not to American Laws and beliefs.

Teddy Roosevelt discussed this situation.....Immigrants assimilating the "American Belief System" was a necessity all the while they were free to maintain a connection to their own individual culture.

At the time he was speaking of Germans and the Irish.

Sharia is not compatible with our way of Life.

https://hudson.org/content/researchattachments/attachment/1216/theodore_roosevelt_true_americanism.pdf





They are currently losing, big style, both militarily and with recruitment. So they'll organise and execute attacks like the ones we've recently seen on the French to stoke up internal cultural conflict & draw in the mentally unstable and alienated to their cause. And it is clearly working.

So....are they winning or losing....you seem to tell it both ways.

sitigeltfel
16th Jul 2016, 06:50
The Mairie in Avignon is taking no chances. The main thoroughfare in the centre of the city is to be closed to all traffic in the evenings during the annual cultural festival, "for the protection of the public".

La rue de la République interdites aux véhicules | La Provence (http://www.laprovence.com/actu/en-direct/4034879/avignon.html)

They haven't done that before, for such a long period.

cjm_2010
16th Jul 2016, 07:04
So....are they winning or losing....you seem to tell it both ways.

They are losing, overall. The kind of acts we're seeing are symptoms of desperation. But their PR machine knows what buttons to press for maximum outrage. And as their territorial strategy fails, they will fall back on the only weapon they have left, which is the creation of inter-cultural tension.

Flying Binghi
16th Jul 2016, 07:13
Do we have confirmation yet that it were an islamic related or terrorist attack and not just a nutter going postal ?

I've seen mention that the guns and grenades supposedly in the truck were actually replicas. There is mention of CCTV seeing somebody leave the truck before the incident.





.

MrSnuggles
16th Jul 2016, 08:17
Flying Binghi

In the heat of the moment, the devastation and the fact the perpetrator had an Arab sounding name I automatically assumed this to be the works of another terrorist.

However, I have read statements from his family and friends that he was just another wife beating drunkard who was known to police for the occasional DUI and some petty crime. It seems he was in a divorce? and thought it best to revenge on totally unknown people.

At the moment I shall refrain from claiming further connections between him and a terrorist action. It might have been a Lubitz situation, or it might have been a retarded way of giving Allah some glory before ending in a shower of bullets. Maybe a combination.

meadowrun
16th Jul 2016, 08:41
French police have arrested 4 in connection with the attack. Let's see where that leads to.


And from Obama:


Delivering remarks on Friday, President Barack Obama said people "must not allow themselves to be divided by religion" following the attack.
"We cannot give into fear or turn on each other or sacrifice our way of life," he said.
"It's been a difficult several weeks in the US but the divide that exists isn't between races or religion, it's between people who recognise the common humanity of all people."

The most nonsensical thing I've ever heard him say.

yellowtriumph
16th Jul 2016, 08:53
French police have arrested 4 in connection with the attack. Let's see where that leads to.


And from Obama:


Delivering remarks on Friday, President Barack Obama said people "must not allow themselves to be divided by religion" following the attack.
"We cannot give into fear or turn on each other or sacrifice our way of life," he said.
"It's been a difficult several weeks in the US but the divide that exists isn't between races or religion, it's between people who recognise the common humanity of all people."

The most nonsensical thing I've ever heard him say.
I think 'Yes we can' must be high on the list. Possibly the most ineffectual world leader the US has given the world - twice.

sitigeltfel
16th Jul 2016, 09:32
Police arrested a man carrying a machete in Nice last night, close to where a vigil was being held for victims.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/07/CnbXqa8WcAAMk16-640x480.jpg

MrSnuggles
16th Jul 2016, 09:45
I agree with Obama.

This isn't a war between nations. This is a war between ideologies. Those who want to oppress and force their opinions onto others vs those who want freedom of speech, liberté, equalité, fraternité.

In that, ISIS has a lot in common with Trump. Opportunists who paint unwanted people in dark colours and want to fight them.

WW2 was the starting seed of the wars between ideologies. Remember Baader-Meinhof. Terrorists ruled by ideology, not nation borders.

Wingswinger
16th Jul 2016, 09:59
It is a war between civilisation and evil, nihilistic barbarism.

DirtyProp
16th Jul 2016, 10:12
Police arrested a man carrying a machete in Nice last night, close to where a vigil was being held for victims.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/07/CnbXqa8WcAAMk16-640x480.jpg

That's not a machete, it's a billhook.
It's an agricultural/gardening tool, not a weapon although it can be used as such.
But even a stone can be used as a weapon.
This is getting worse and worse, we live in terror.

meadowrun
16th Jul 2016, 10:27
we live in terror


Well, I don't. I live alongside it but have no fear of idiots.

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 10:33
That's not a machete, it's a billhook.
It's an agricultural/gardening tool, not a weapon although it can be used as such.

And judging by forklifts in background, this guy either working on some municipal ground, like trees sanitizing, or this is some warehouse where he uses this tool.

ehwatezedoing
16th Jul 2016, 10:49
Maybe he said he was going to "deliver" ice cream with it.

Hussar 54
16th Jul 2016, 11:07
At the moment I shall refrain from claiming further connections between him and a terrorist action. It might have been a Lubitz situation, or it might have been a retarded way of giving Allah some glory before ending in a shower of bullets. Maybe a combination.



ISIS now claiming responsibility.

If the claim is proven and this wasn't a Lubitz scenario, the door is opening wider and wider for the FN at next year's elections and given the FN's track record and objectives, the future of France and then the disintegration of rest of the EU wouldn't be pretty.

The FN are already well established down here ( particularly in the Var and the Vaucluse ) and it's getting to be more and more difficult to keep a lid on the pressure from all parts of French Society for 'something to be done' about the risk of yet more terrorist attacks.

Dangerous times ahead - do nothing and more attacks seem inevitable, or 'pushback' and alienate, totally, the five million or so muslims already here.

Not an easy decision, and no easy solutions whichever strategy is adopted.

vulcanised
16th Jul 2016, 11:23
The clear message lately is that being in a crowd can be a dangerous place.
.

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 11:44
ISIS now claiming responsibility.

Wording of this claim clearly shows that there is no even ghost connection between them and nutcracker. Similarly they can claim responsibility with latest thunderstorm in Moscow, killed one and injured 17.

PS: ISIS is prohibited here so I don't want to link their claim, but he is named "warrior", not "shaheed" which means he is not true muslim.

Dan_Brown
16th Jul 2016, 12:03
What's going on in NICE? I'll tell you, the same as before and will happen again.

Unless we introduce religious profiling, and internment, we will never stop it. This will never happen as our "leaders" are too scared to even utter the "I" word.

I take it most of us are in agreement, we are at war.

Machrihanish
16th Jul 2016, 12:05
ISIS now claiming responsibility.
"Hand in sound terror results documentation accompanied by a filled-in copy of the ISIS-endorsement-eligibility-form, IEE."

sitigeltfel
16th Jul 2016, 12:45
That's not a machete, it's a billhook.
It's an agricultural/gardening tool, not a weapon although it can be used as such.
But even a stone can be used as a weapon.
This is getting worse and worse, we live in terror.

I have exactly the same tool which I use for hacking down bamboo. In French it is called a "serpe".

And judging by forklifts in background, this guy either working on some municipal ground, like trees sanitizing, or this is some warehouse where he uses this tool. The forklifts are on the promenade as part of the clear up and forensic procedure after the attack. They are being used to lift barriers and bollards into place.

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 12:58
The forklifts are on the promenade as part of the clear up and forensic procedure after the attack.

Thanks for explanation. Any update on positive confirmation about weapon and "mocked weapon" this guy have in his car?

Tankertrashnav
16th Jul 2016, 14:04
Do we have confirmation yet that it were an islamic related or terrorist attack and not just a nutter going postal ?

This is sounding more and more like yet another pathetic loser.

You are in a shit job, you've split with your wife, you've got a drink problem and you've had a few run-ins with the law. You live in a crap apartment on the outskirts of a town which is a byword for wealth and extravagance, all out of your reach. Down there in the town are hundreds of people living the high life - strolling up and down in a world you are not part of. You decide you've had enough - you're going to show them.

I'm betting this has nothing to do with earlier terrorist attacks. The little man who has finally had enough is well-known to criminologists, and whether he hijacks an aircraft, goes on the rampage with a rifle in a college campus or drives a truck into a crowded street - the twisted motive is the same. He's not the first and he certainly wont be the last, and the next one is as likely to be called Smith, Jones or Robinson as Bouhlel.

Above The Clouds
16th Jul 2016, 14:16
This is sounding more and more like yet another pathetic loser.

You are in a shit job, you've split with your wife, you've got a drink problem and you've had a few run-ins with the law. You live in a crap apartment on the outskirts of a town which is a byword for wealth and extravagance, all out of your reach. Down there in the town are hundreds of people living the high life - strolling up and down in a world you are not part of. You decide you've had enough - you're going to show them.

I'm betting this has nothing to do with earlier terrorist attacks. The little man who has finally had enough is well-known to criminologists, and whether he hijacks an aircraft, goes on the rampage with a rifle in a college campus or drives a truck into a crowded street - the twisted motive is the same. He's not the first and he certainly wont be the last, and the next one is as likely to be called Smith, Jones or Robinson as Bouhlel.
I would say you have hit the nail on the head, why would any so called terrorist, ISIS, Daesh, carry imitation weapons except for a pistol if he was going on a rampage.

Norman Deplume
16th Jul 2016, 14:31
Well put Tankertrash. My earlier whinge seems to have mysteriously been deleted.....Apologies to the thought police.

And yes, I do advocate carpet bombing, under these circumstances.:ok:

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 14:57
ATC, I don't think he plan to drive through promenade. I think this story of renting the lorry, pistol and faked weapons and 9 hours waiting is a part of some scenario he was pushed into. Quite simple explanation is that he was told to park at this place and wait for something or someone and after he don't get this contact, and after he was asked by police twice and after he managed to check this lorry and possible found this planted "mocked weapon" and get an idea that he is framed... His roof leak goes from drips to flood.

And quite possible that some guy from secret service who looked forward to the next promotion for exposing another "muslim terrorist" and "preventing terrorist attack" now siting low and trying to understand why something went wrong.

SASless
16th Jul 2016, 15:06
You are in a shit job, you've split with your wife, you've got a drink problem and you've had a few run-ins with the law. You live in a crap apartment on the outskirts of a town which is a byword for wealth and extravagance, all out of your reach. Down there in the town are hundreds of people living the high life - strolling up and down in a world you are not part of. You decide you've had enough - you're going to show them.

So why have we not seen more Helicopter Pilots involved in these kinds of acts?:rolleyes:

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 15:10
So why have we not seen more Helicopter Pilots involved in these kinds of acts?

They not yet discovered shitness of their job comparing to job of other pilots?

Cazalet33
16th Jul 2016, 15:29
Because they can afford a great big watch and because they know how to caress their cyclics?

My ex-wife's answer, not mine.

Kulverstukas
16th Jul 2016, 15:31
And yes, I do advocate carpet bombing, under these circumstances.

Carpet bombing nuthouses?

sitigeltfel
16th Jul 2016, 15:38
Thanks for explanation. Any update on positive confirmation about weapon and "mocked weapon" this guy have in his car?

That has not yet been explained. The boss of the vehicle hire company has confirmed that the killer requested the largest truck he could drive on his licence.

Algol
16th Jul 2016, 16:26
Islam is the perfect refuge for disaffected psycho's.

meadowrun
16th Jul 2016, 17:48
I take it must of us are in agreement we are at war


Most everyone but the not a clues and the leaders.

GrumpyOldFart
16th Jul 2016, 19:05
Dan Brown:

Unless we introduce religious profiling, and interment, we will never stop it.

I like your way of thinking, but I believe you meant internment. Although ....

lomapaseo
16th Jul 2016, 19:31
Islam is the perfect refuge for disaffected psycho's.

as is the internet

tdracer
16th Jul 2016, 19:58
Never underestimate the appeal of violence and power to a certain subset of humanity - who happen to be mainly young males. ISIS has great appeal to that subset.



I think it's quite telling that my first though after hearing about Nice was that the perp was most likely Muslim. :rolleyes:

LEGAL TENDER
16th Jul 2016, 20:14
who happen to be mainly young males.


Well... there isn't a lot of longevity in their field of work!!

Tankertrashnav
16th Jul 2016, 23:41
To all those who say we are at war I hope you have all studied your Clausewitz (and others) and are familiar with the principles of war, the first, and most important of which is "selection and maintenance of the aim". Maybe you advocate the Bush/Blair approach - go in with all guns blazing, and we'll have a think about what our aim is later. That one really worked out well in Iraq!

But seriously, what is your aim? And once you've stated it, maybe you'd like to outline your method of achieving it.

(Note, if your aim is "bomb them into oblivion", a definition of who "them" is would be good.)

Flying Binghi
16th Jul 2016, 23:55
Its confirmed. The sickness of islam infected another gullible mind...

"The man behind the truck attack that killed at least 84 people celebrating Bastille Day in the French city of Nice had recently been radicalised, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said in remarks published on Sunday...

French PM says clear that Nice truck driver was radicalised quickly | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-attacks-nice-valls-idUSKCN0ZW168?il=0)




.

mickjoebill
17th Jul 2016, 00:01
Do we have confirmation yet that it were an islamic related or terrorist attack and not just a nutter going postal ?


Is there a difference?

Mickjoebill

meadowrun
17th Jul 2016, 01:13
"The French interior minister has called on "all patriotic citizens" to become reservists to boost security in the wake of the attack in Nice, in which 84 people were killed.
Bernard Cazeneuve reiterated that France would call up 12,000 reservists." bbc


No Muslims need apply?

Espada III
17th Jul 2016, 06:40
Interesting question. ...

If you seek proof that not all Muslims are waiting to kill us by encouraging them into overt acts of patriotism (perhaps by joining the army, police etc), what does that say about other minorities or even the white majority who couldn't care less about showing patriotism. Are they showing a disdain for the host nation? Is that whole concept a racist view?

sitigeltfel
17th Jul 2016, 07:31
There are reports in the press that this terrorist, who was living on the breadline, sent €100,000 to his family in Tunisia in the days before the attack.

Now, where did he get that?

Dan_Brown
17th Jul 2016, 09:49
Good question, siteltfel..

One way to start with these mongrels , is to cut off ISIS funding. Oh that's too late of course, as we didn't want to upset any ME country as "we might loose too many contracts". They now have their own source of income. Lets stop them selling oil. Well who are the buyers of their oil? Oh well we can't say that as it would upset a few countries.

Cut the money supply.

There you have it in a nutshell. Wherever there is a will there is a way. There is no will but weasel words, half baked threats and empty promises from western powers.

meadowrun
17th Jul 2016, 10:04
[QUOTE]As to your question, it might be an excellent thing if Muslims did apply, or is this incident simply offering you another outlet for your personal frustrations?[/QUOTE


Frustrated? Sure?
Disillusioned? Yups.
All sorts of other "dis" words? You bet.


It's a real world. Fact is some muslims would be great in the role and fact is there would be infiltration by the bad guys who will see it as a golden opportunity for more destabilization and chances for attacks from within. Unless, of course, you have a great deal of faith in French security screening processes.


Right now, despite the entire country being on a high security level, on a national holiday, a non-refrigerated truck, who the driver told police three times was delivering ice cream, made it by totally ineffective security check points and travelled two kms. along a closed to non-pedestrian traffic road to mow down over 100 men, women and children.


In light of this and other incidents in France, I have to wonder how effective the French can possibly be in maintaining a non-tainted reserve force.

sitigeltfel
17th Jul 2016, 15:41
There is talk of him being "suddenly radicalised", which is total bollocks.

He was born in Tunisia, into a Muslim society and culture. It is highly likely he was taught to chant Koranic phrases before he could count the fingers on his hands. Despite his later life in secular France, the programming was still there, waiting to be reactivated and it wouldn't have taken much to return him to his default state of hatred for the infidel.

The next one will be along shortly.

meadowrun
17th Jul 2016, 22:07
The ideology is a self-defeating exercise ultimately driven by an overwhelming inferiority complex.
Why do so many flock to the West? For economic reasons and the "good life" made possible by the West. Yet, for many, the majority, their religion holds them back. It prevents most from being equal in respect and in their level of social/material attainments. Not their fault of course, it's just one more thing to blame the West for and so - make them hurt.
What would a world governed by islam and uneducated Ayatolahs, Imams, Mullahs and clerics look like?
All those things they want from the West - cars, mobile phones, internet, computers, aircraft, decent housing, decent education and skills training (education is not memorizing the Koran), abundance of food, abundance of creature comforts would all be frozen to slowly rot away or destroyed and never be replaced. All these things would cease to exist under muslim rule.


It is a political religion started by uneducated men that never progressed and whose main aim apparently is to bite off its nose to spite its face.

Tankertrashnav
17th Jul 2016, 22:38
I'll tell my daughter's partner, who is a solicitor working in the Department of Justice, currently administering the legal aid scheme. I'll tell him you want him interned.

He's going to be really pissed off as they are getting really stuck into the house they've recently bought - about half way through getting it into shape. My daughter is going to be fed up too as she is going to have to try and get it finished on her own while he hangs around on the Isle of Man (or wherever).

Of course you could just deport him back to his place of origin. Again he's going to be pissed off because he quite likes it where they are and doesn't really want to go back to London!

Sorry chum, but you are the one with abhorrent views. I don't really want to trigger Godwin's Law, but those views sound very familiar.

G-CPTN
17th Jul 2016, 22:52
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Martin Niemöller (1892–1984).

Flying Binghi
18th Jul 2016, 00:20
via mickjoebill #180:
Is there a difference?

Yeah, could be nutter-nutter.

Hmmm... say i believe all garden gnomes are actually frozen gods awaiting reincarnation on the great day when all believe in the power of garden gnomes as described in the great book. In the book of gnomes it says all fags should be thrown of tall buildings. Females are second class and subordinate to males and that wives should be beaten. That raped females are jailed. That if i believe in the power of garden gnomes I will go to heaven and have 70 virgins allotted to me. And, the book of gnomes says that i should kill all non believers.......

I reckon I'd be called a nutter.

...Actually, I'd likely have the police turn up and cart me off to the loony farm. (assuming i'm not living in a country that has garden gnome god belief as the only religion)

So yeah, hard to tell the difference...






.

SASless
18th Jul 2016, 01:40
Then there's the sympathizers that got to be dealt with too....then those that know the sympathizers and their families.....before long it would all of us at some point I reckon.:uhoh:

sitigeltfel
18th Jul 2016, 06:12
One of the arrested suspects was released overnight. Six are still in custody, three of which have been transferred to Paris for interrogation by the DGSI.

cjm_2010
18th Jul 2016, 06:49
What is insane is refusing to recognise the reality we're facing: that we have huge numbers of people in our countries adhering to an ideology that despises us, and would do anything to destroy our way of life. We cannot let them do that. A Trump Presidency in the US, a strong FN showing in the next French elections, PVV gains in Holland: these would be small first steps towards getting a grip on the problem.

A Trump presidency in the US would be a complete and utter disaster. The guy is a total idiot.

FN gaining a bigger foothold in France would be a sad day indeed; It'd be The return of Nazis - but instead of a hostile takeover, they'd be voted in. The PVV are just as bad - they may keep their swastikas well hidden, but they're all basically skinheads in suits.

If we really had 'huge numbers of people in our countries adhering to an ideology that despises us, and would do anything to destroy our way of life', why are these attacks isolated and sporadic in nature? Here in the UK we have 3 million Muslims living out their lives peacefully. One even got elected as mayor of London!

If they really did want to destroy our way of life, I think it would have become obvious by now.

Kulverstukas
18th Jul 2016, 08:47
A Trump presidency in the US would be a complete and utter disaster.

And Clinton one would be a complete Victory and Heaven? o.O

As for point of view a lot of posters here share - about needs to begin war with Islam as bad and inappropriate religion, and about any muslim already is infected with incurable disease... I don't see a big difference with a view to the Jews - they all came to Europe for better life, they don't want to mix with chrisitians and accept their values, their common occupation is money speculation and selling bad goods, their God is bloody bastard and it's makes perfect sense to get them all interned or better deleted because even innocent kids are raised in this awful and misanthropic religion...

UPD: They play the long game
Gradually position themselves into "society" bit by bit.
Then when enough are where they can start to impose jewish culture on the Deutschla... err... UK.

MrSnuggles
18th Jul 2016, 08:48
Kulverstukas

I did not understand that. Can you please elaborate on what you mean?

Kulverstukas
18th Jul 2016, 08:56
I mean that the only difference I see between Nazi's point of view on Jews and contemporary point of view on Muslims is that Hitler didn't want to nuke Jews country (because they didn't have one).

Kulverstukas
18th Jul 2016, 09:14
Jews were not blowing themselves up, attacking German citizens and spreading terror.

Really? Are you kidding? Or you just not study history of the beginning of XX century?

MrSnuggles
18th Jul 2016, 09:30
Ah, ok, Kulverstukas, now I get it.

Kind of agree with you.

Even though the jews did some crazy stuff in the 1800's the scale of terror the muslims do now is magnified by thousands. But I agree with you, the comparison can be made.

VP959
18th Jul 2016, 09:47
seen the box well that's ok then. I'll tell my law abiding, tax paying son in law that it's "unfortunate" that he is being removed from his responsible government job and interned on account of his religion - I'm sure he will understand!

Maybe you could relax things a bit and instead of internment he could wear a yellow star and crescent armband instead. That wouldn't be too bad for him, and you could keep an eye on him more easily.

Care to mention some of these European "senior politicians" who hold your views? They wouldn't include Geert Wilders and Marine Le Pen by any chance?
Your son in law sounds like my Muslim friend, someone who doesn't see his religion in the way very large numbers of his fellow believers do.

If the majority of Muslims accepted that the words in the Qur'an should not be taken literally, but should be interpreted, like the Bible and the Torah, into the context of the current era, then I don't think there would be a problem.

What concerns me is that I've heard, directly from a practising Muslim in my area, that the majority of those that attend his mosque DO take the words in the Qur'an literally. They almost certainly aren't a threat, in that there seems little chance that they will act on their beliefs, but that doesn't change the underlying problem.

Add this fundamental approach to teaching religious belief with the natural tendency for some young people to look for a reason to rebel, and a cause to believe in when they do so, and you have a constant source of threat to all non-Muslims.

sitigeltfel
18th Jul 2016, 11:41
Today at mid-day across France, people stood in silence for a minute to pay homage to the dead. We went up to Mairie where the Maire said a few words to the villagers.
Afterwards a local opera singer led the singing of the Marseillaise, before everyone quietly dispersed.

I have the suspicion that this will not be last time we have to observe such a ritual.

er340790
18th Jul 2016, 17:44
Hmmm... I believe all garden gnomes are actually frozen gods awaiting reincarnation on the great day when all believe in the power of garden gnomes as described in the great book. In the book of gnomes it says all fags should be thrown of tall buildings. Females are second class and subordinate to males and that wives should be beaten. That raped females are jailed. That if i believe in the power of garden gnomes I will go to heaven and have 70 virgins allotted to me. And, the book of gnomes says that i should kill all non believers.......


"HAIL, MESSIAH!!!!!" :D :}

sitigeltfel
19th Jul 2016, 11:04
As an example of the gigantic task confronting French police, there is this event.

In the early hours of Monday morning, police stopped a VTC (tourism taxi) on the outskirts of Paris, for a minor traffic offence. They discovered stolen passports and driving licences in the vehicle. He had been quizzing his passengers about their travel plans to find out when they would not be at home so that he, or accomplices, could burgle them. Further checks revealed he was on the "fiche S" terrorist watch list and when they raided his apartment they found explosives and detonators, along with terrorist literature.

There are around 10,500 people on the fiche S list, and it is estimated that it takes twenty officers to provide full time surveillance on just one suspect. You can easily see where this is going.

Kulverstukas
19th Jul 2016, 11:29
and it is estimated that it takes twenty officers to provide full time surveillance on just one suspect. You can easily see where this is going.

There was not single terror act prevented by surveillance from outside. Only way to effectively fight this kind of crime is from inside. And it's have it's own dirty outcome :(

panda-k-bear
19th Jul 2016, 13:15
Now starting to see reports of another attack (on a much lesser scale) of a mother and three daughters, all stabbed 'by a Muslim because they were too scantily dressed'.

Ibanez001
19th Jul 2016, 13:20
And now something going on in the South of France too...

https://www.rt.com/news/352068-gunman-hotel-provence-france/

Lonewolf_50
19th Jul 2016, 13:23
There was not single terror act prevented by surveillance from outside. Only way to effectively fight this kind of crime is from inside. And it's have it's own dirty outcome :( Very much agree.

Digression: when 9-11 2001 happened, and the "war on terror" was proclaimed, what I expected to see happen was a lot of knife work and "things in the shadows." At that time, a guy named Rumsfeld had been Sec Def for a while and had been vigorously trying to "lean out" our conventional forces with a higher emphasis on Special Ops and such. Things changed about a year later.


So, while some of what I expected may have happened, much else go higher to my disappointment. The other element of dealing with terrorists is the sideways method of finding and cutting off their sources of funding and supply. I know of a few things along those lines, but not enough to know how well any of it has panned out.

Kulverstukas
19th Jul 2016, 13:36
The other element of dealing with terrorists is the sideways method of finding and cutting off their sources of funding and supply.

Exactly. When Chechen war was in the hot phase, there in the middle of the heart of Russia it was not even big secret that every Caucasian guy with small or middle or big business or even poor seller from grocery market sends his share to "fighting freedom brothers".

And now it's really just some bearded crazy loners hiding in the mountains.

Lonewolf_50
19th Jul 2016, 13:41
Exactly. When Chechen war was in the hot phase, there in the middle of the heart of Russia it was not even big secret that every Caucasian guy with small or middle or big business or even poor seller from grocery market sends his share to "fighting freedom brothers".

And now it's really just some bearded crazy loners hiding in the mountains. I found the general Western lack of support for and criticism of the Russians in their dealing with the Chechen insurrection somewhere between bizarre and disgusting. The PTB and their rhetoric so blinded by their desire for even further fragmentation of Russia after the CIS move that they missed the point of what is going on. Further comments :mad: due to how we missed a trick, badly, on building bridges after the wall fell.


EDIT:

Whoa, some new info on the Operation Orchard/Israeli Air Strike in 2007. North Koreans confirmed as being involved, building a plutonium type reactor, and maybe Assad is going to try again. Not sure how solid Spiegel is as a source (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/[quote=Kulverstukas;9444871]Exactly.%20When%20Chechen%20war%20was%20in%20the%20hot%20pha se,%20there%20in%20the%20middle%20of%20the%20heart%20of%20Ru ssia%20it%20was%20not%20even%20big%20secret%20that%20every%2 0Caucasian%20guy%20with%20small%20or%20middle%20or%20big%20b usiness%20or%20even%20poor%20seller%20from%20grocery%20marke t%20sends%20his%20share%20to%20%22fighting%20freedom%20broth ers%22.). New Yorker had a piece on this last month.


Maybe Assad agrees with you: without nukes, he needs more and better friends, and he's having trouble finding new ones.

panda-k-bear
19th Jul 2016, 15:15
Now starting to see reports of another attack (on a much lesser scale) of a mother and three daughters, all stabbed 'by a Muslim because they were too scantily dressed'.

8 year old girl critical in hospital with a punctured lung. the crime of these women? Wearing shorts and t-shirts. In broad daylight. In a western democracy.

West Coast
19th Jul 2016, 15:23
LW50

Link not working.

Rwy in Sight
19th Jul 2016, 15:40
panda-k-bear

I was pointing out that at a discussion last week: although equal damage can be done by attacking people during the morning rush hour, Muslims do prefer to attack while Westerners are having fun. That is if the incident you are referring to is a terrorist one and not a nut-case. I hope the girl gets well soon.

Lonewolf_50
19th Jul 2016, 16:35
@West Coast


Evidence Points to Syria Still Working on a Nuclear Weapon - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/evidence-points-to-syria-still-working-on-a-nuclear-weapon-a-1012209.html)

The Story of 'Operation Orchard': How Israel Destroyed Syria's Al Kibar Nuclear Reactor - SPIEGEL ONLINE (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/the-story-of-operation-orchard-how-israel-destroyed-syria-s-al-kibar-nuclear-reactor-a-658663.html)

The two links above are from the German magazine Der Spiegel, in English.


The Silent Strike - The New Yorker (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2012/09/17/the-silent-strike)


The above link is from New Yorker magazine.


As ever, consider the source/sources.

bbrio1
19th Jul 2016, 18:03
I wonder how many of these nutters are attention whores. "Woe is me. Nobody really understands the pain I suffer. People look at me like I don't exist. I feel persecuted. I bet if I do something really radical I will get a lot of attention on FB or the Utoob, then they'll see that I'm interesting" Etc. etc. etc.

A lot of young people are like this these days. If you have a FB account and have "befriended" young people you will see hundreds of posts. Here is me in front of the Eiffel Tower (with a picture of their smiling mugs obliterating the view of the Eiffel Tower - or the Taj Mahal, or whatever)

I don't think anyone has told them that nobody really gives a shit. You're not going to be a celebrity. You're not going to be a famous commentator of whatever social injustice piques you. You are just like billions of other nobodies. So......they hit on another strategy for making people talk about them.

Editing to add: In a nice restaurant the other night to join a party to celebrate something. Lots of nice people, the young women dressed up to the nines and carefully made up and coiffed and.......taking pictures of themselves. Hands on hips, big smiles, Knee cocked in a modeling pose. And literally DOZENS of pictures, each one critically reviewed before posing for the next one. Do they really think they are that pleasing to the eye? Why do they need this affirmation from the rest of the world? Can they at least get out of the way of the waiters so I can get my bloody food? I am STARVING. And not for attention.

Lonewolf_50
19th Jul 2016, 18:32
I wonder how many of these nutters are attention whores. "Woe is me. Nobody really understands the pain I suffer. People look at me like I don't exist. I feel persecuted. I bet if I do something really radical I will get a lot of attention on FB or the Utoob, then they'll see that I'm interesting" Etc. etc. etc.

(snip)

I don't think anyone has told them that nobody really gives a shit. You're not going to be a celebrity. You're not going to be a famous commentator of whatever social injustice piques you. You are just like billions of other nobodies. So......they hit on another strategy for making people talk about them. We could call this the "Columbine Syndrome" if we didn't have a lot of previous examples to choose from.
This fella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_J._Guiteau)shot president Garfield, and suffered from extreme an exaggeration of his own importance.
This fella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Harvey_Oswald)shot president Kennedy. He was a misfit with poor social skills. He didn't fit in with the Marines: got booted on an admin discharge. Didn't fit in when he defected to Minsk, having bought into the rhetoric of the international communist movement. Didn't fit in when he returned to the US. Had big ideas about how important he was, but he wasn't. What made his name immortal was a couple of rifle shots.


I'll stop with the examples there, but I think you have touched on something very real.

wiggy
19th Jul 2016, 18:33
8 year old girl critical in hospital with a punctured lung. the crime of these women? Wearing shorts and t-shirts. In broad daylight. In a western democracy.

I wonder where those claims originated? More ammunition for or from the FN, I'm sure, but according to the local (Gap) prosecutor:

"I wanted to quash the rumour currently doing the rounds because on no account did this man make such comments about the fact that the attack may have been motivated by the victims' dress code," Raphael Balland, prosecutor of Gap, said at a press conference."

Machrihanish
19th Jul 2016, 19:17
"I wanted to quash the rumour currently doing the rounds because on no account did this man make such comments about the fact that the attack may have been motivated by the victims' dress code," Raphael Balland, prosecutor of Gap, said at a press conference."

So you deem this any better?

Selon M6, ce serait plutôt le père de la famille de Bouguenais qui aurait déclenché la colère de l'agresseur en sortant le matin sur la terrasse en sous-vêtement. Une tenue qui aurait choqué Mohamed, en vacances lui aussi avec sa femme enceinte et ses deux jeunes enfants.
Hautes-Alpes : la fillette poignardée avec sa famille est hors de danger - Le Parisien (http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/hautes-alpes-une-mere-et-ses-trois-filles-attaquees-au-couteau-dans-un-centre-de-vacances-19-07-2016-5979377.php)

Quite obviously FN won't capitalize on this any differently pending that detail.

I think both forms of the "dresscode"-"argument" do not serve anything but somehow rationalizing the deed, read: blaming the victims for misconduct in the so insulted eyes of the attacker's own humble, chaste, delicate family, who abhor skin, but never blood.

NutLoose
19th Jul 2016, 21:12
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/girl-fighting-for-life-after-mum-and-three-daughters-knifed-in-french-holiday-resort-for-being-scantily-dressed/ar-BBuvd1m?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartandhp

sitigeltfel
20th Jul 2016, 07:36
The truck should never been allowed near the Nice seafront on 14th July, it turns out that vehicles over 7.5 tonnes were banned from the promenade on public holidays.

wiggy
20th Jul 2016, 07:52
So you deem this any better?

Firstly I'm certainly not an apologist for the perp and hope he is throughly;) dealt with by the authorities.

OTOH is it not of interest that most written reports today place the comments/allegations about the motive being the family's clothing in quotes...., e.g. in the piece NutLoose linked to:

" Police say the motive for the attack remains 'vague' but local media reports state the attacker had made references to the females being 'too lightly dressed'.

(FWIW with regard to M6, they have previous for reporting on what is reported in the media having done little if any back checking themselves, cf. the Egyptair accident earlier this summer)

sitigeltfel
20th Jul 2016, 08:17
Just when you thought people couldn't get any sicker.

An individual has been arrested after he offered up for sale, items that he claimed had been abandoned on Nice prom by the dead and injured. Bags, jewellery, sunglasses etc. were listed on the Leboncoin website, prompting a visit from the cybercrime cops.

Further info...

A lawyer, Corentin Delobel, who falsely claimed to have represented the terrorist in court in the past was due to appear before the head of the Nice bar today.
He never appeared as he has tried to commit suicide and is now in intensive care in hospital.

david1300
21st Jul 2016, 11:57
There was not single terror act prevented by surveillance from outside. Only way to effectively fight this kind of crime is from inside. And it's have it's own dirty outcome :(

What a stupid statement. How do you know this? I am sure there have been many terror acts prevented from the outside. By their nature they are hard to prosecute as most laws do not allow foe prosecution before an event. Here in Australia the lawmakers have been playing catch up, and we do now have laws against planning terror acts (still hard to prove) and other new crimes in the statute books. And yes, we gave had convictions under these laws that have prevented terror attacks, thanks to surveillance from the outside.

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 11:26
Just when you thought people couldn't get any sicker.

Did you see how US backed "moderate" rebels, fighting "bloody Asad" cut head of 12 years old then?

Lonewolf_50
22nd Jul 2016, 12:11
Did you saw how US backed "moderate" rebels, fighting "bloody Asad" cut head of 12 years old then? English usage assist: "did you see" would have worked better.
As to Arabs in that current civil war, they have been brutalizing people for some years. I personally thank youtube who was able to spread the videos from a decade ago, and more, of the local face wrapped Sunnis in Iraq cutting peoples' head off. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


It's local culture in action.

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 12:30
Thanks, Wolf, my English grammar is really awful :( As for "local culture" I don't think you can so easily believe that in your neighbor it's impossible because your country is "civilized" and "cultural". In Yugoslavia and Ukraine people who live in "European culture" for more than 300 years easily begin to cut heads and films it on video or smartphones. And in case of later you even can't blame religion because they are Christians.

jcjeant
22nd Jul 2016, 13:11
Hi,

The city of Nice refuses to clear CCTV images of 14 July and took the prosecutor to request the implementation of the receivership videos.

Following the request "complete obliteration" of Nice slaughter videos July 14, request from the Ministry of the Interior (see previous article), Nice Municipality of the lawyer, Philippe Blanchetier announced evening:

a) - firstly that the City does not refer to the order it has received,

b) - secondly it is preparing to ask the prosecutor Nice to sequestrate these images "in order not to jeopardize any other procedures that may emerge beyond the investigation terrorism in progress. "

Conclusion

The floor seems to escape from day to day under the hated power of François Hollande and Manuel Valls.

The charge of "State lie" - extremely strong and extremely rare in the mouths of politicians, be they opposition - grows throughout France.

According to officials (LR) of Nice, it is the turn of the mayor (LR) of Chalon-sur-Saône to refuse to join the visit of the Minister of Culture festival "Chalon Dans La Rue" denouncing in turn "state lie" revealed Wednesday by the investigation of Nice.

François Hollande and Manuel Valls would probably do well to ask the interior minister to resign in order to circumscribe the political fire that spreads.
https://www.upr.fr/actualite/france/ville-de-nice-refuse-deffacer-images-de-videosurveillance-14-juillet-demande-mise-sequestre

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 13:21
The city of Nice refuses to clear CCTV images of 14 July

From my understanding of what's going on through google translated French sources, there was demand to not duplicate and not put to the public access information from some cameras (possibly - my guess - because of security or personal information breach issues). Which was blown up to "Prosecutor demands to destroy evidence"...

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 13:23
It's local culture in action.

Just as good example (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/581919-what-do-bin-ladens-old-house.html) of "civilized word" discussing how to better piss on the dead body of fallen enemy.

jcjeant
22nd Jul 2016, 13:32
Hi,

Urgent legal requisition was sent to Nice urban supervision center Wednesday, July 20 and was received July 21, 2016.

By this legal requisition, the Anti-Terrorism Sub-Directorate (SDAT) of the Interior Ministry asked the agents that manage video surveillance City "PROCEED WITH FULL CLEAR" 24 hours of images from cameras and six appointees numbered, but also of all the scenes from the beginning of the attack that took place on the promenade des Anglais, on the night of 14 July.

This request is so unusual that the town of Nice forwarded the scan that reveals the Figaro this new case.

https://www.upr.fr/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/requisition-judiciaire-nice.png

sitigeltfel
22nd Jul 2016, 13:33
Just as good example (http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/581919-what-do-bin-ladens-old-house.html) of "civilized word" discussing how to better piss on the dead body of fallen enemy.

You think he is some gallant foe who fought honourably and died a hero's death? No, he was a murderous terrorist piece of excrement who didn't warrant the quick death he enjoyed.

The only things pissing on his body are the fish of the Arabian sea.

Lonewolf_50
22nd Jul 2016, 13:39
Thanks, Wolf, my English grammar is really awful :(
No worries, it's a hard language to learn and use, even for those of us raised with it! :}:ok:

As for "local culture" I don't think you can so easily believe that in your neighbor it's impossible because your country is "civilized" and "cultural".
I said nothing about what won't happen anywhere else, you did. It has become fashionable in that cultural zone (I did not say religion, you did) to resort to that gruesome act. I said I think some of this is copycat behavior (IMO done to terrorize a local audience) and I will stick to that. It's a way of intimidating people to get them to do things you want them to do. (Like everyone who knew that 12 year old).

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 13:53
This request is so unusual that the town of Nice forwarded the scan that reveals the Figaro this new case.

Can anyone please translate this letter?

meadowrun
22nd Jul 2016, 15:47
Do I get this right? The ffrench ministry of the interior is asking/demanding that Nice destroy all video evidence of the atrocity during an ongoing investigation?

jcjeant
22nd Jul 2016, 15:55
Hi,

Do I get this right? The ffrench ministry of the interior is asking/demanding that Nice destroy all video evidence of the atrocity during an ongoing investigation?
You get it very right :ok:

meadowrun
22nd Jul 2016, 16:23
Well then, I'm sure there are very many applicable criminal charges that should be lodged against various members of the ffrench government toute de suite unless sabotaging or interfering with an official investigation is not a crime in Bizzaro ffrance.

MrSnuggles
22nd Jul 2016, 18:11
What could be even the remotest of reasons they would do such a thing?

Any explanations anywhere?

Kulverstukas
22nd Jul 2016, 18:15
Any explanations anywhere?

Jet fuel cannot melt steel beams?

TURIN
22nd Jul 2016, 18:19
What could be even the remotest of reasons they would do such a thing?

Any explanations anywhere?

Good taste and respect for the dead?

MrSnuggles
22nd Jul 2016, 19:48
Ah, you mean I misunderstood?

I gathered that this memo was to destroy evidence BEFORE it had been handed over to investigators.

Rwy in Sight
23rd Jul 2016, 12:16
I never thought french would be useful when ppruning but it does today.

In this site Attentat de Nice : la ville refuse de détruire 24*heures d'images de vidéosurveillance (http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2016/07/21/01016-20160721ARTFIG00225-attentat-de-nice-quand-la-justice-demande-a-la-mairie-de-detruire-24-heures-d-images.php) it states that Judiciary Police have the materiel they need for the case and they want to erase it from the camera server to protect from nefarious uses (ie not to allow jihadists to use it as propaganda material).

Any other french speaker here willing to comment?

jcjeant
23rd Jul 2016, 14:31
Hi,

La municipalité refuse et va demander au procureur de mettre ces images sous séquestre.The municipality refuses and will ask the prosecutor to bring these images into receivership.
So it's no nefarious use possible .. they will be locked
These videos are important for the result of the investigation who are challenged and that the Minister of the Interior (Cazeneuve) requested an other (counter) investigation by a service he controls himself
Conflict of interest !!

Lonewolf_50
23rd Jul 2016, 17:14
jc, I recall your long rants in the AF 447 thread about conspiracies to suppress, etc. Rwy In Sight's post looks like a reasonable assessment of how the information age works, and how certain parties in this world exploit the world wide web. (I remember with some clarity the "cut off their heads" videos a few Islamist groups in Iraq produced).

I appreciate your mistrust of the people in government, we have a similar skepticism over here. Sometimes the people in government do get it right, however. I am leaning toward Rwy In Sight's PoV on this given what's been going on for the past decade or so.

sitigeltfel
4th Aug 2016, 20:34
One of the victims severely injured in the attack has died in hospital, bringing the death toll to 85.

sitigeltfel
19th Aug 2016, 21:12
The 86th victim succumbed to his injuries earlier today

Le bilan de l'attentat de Nice s'alourdit, une 86e victime succombe à ses blessures - Nice-Matin (http://www.nicematin.com/faits-divers/le-bilan-de-lattentat-de-nice-salourdit-une-86e-victime-succombe-a-ses-blessures-72507)