Dick Smith! Cancel this Ridiculous Wake Idea.

[Nulli Secundus]

Dick Smith your position on the state of GA is the most conflicted it could possibly be. Where on earth is your ethical compass on all of this? Its fine for you mate, you've got your overseas buyer for the big asset. Now that box is ticked you plan to broadcast the dire situation of GA to the outside world. Well done.

Did you ever consider the impact on those needing to make a living and a future from GA? What about the people at AOPA whom, albeit in my opinion rather poorly, are making an effort to boost Australian GA?

Your ridiculous notion of a wake is an insult to the people of Australian GA. You could in turn put your energies and money toward positive action for a better GA future.

I would urge everyone to call you out on your current PR stunt.

You're all about the headline Dick. Tell me this, why no wake before you got the sale for the Citation? You don't need a sale to hold a wake! You could have but you didn't. You needed the best chance of a sale and talking the industry down publicly would have done you no favours. Gaining a foreign buyer is purely incidental. You're like a federal politician who won't debate negative gearing - too much personal interest at stake.

So let's run over the facts: call a wake, invite the media, broadcast "Dick Smith sees no future in Australian aviation and is even selling his personal jet" (the Today show will love it Dick), run down the industry, turn away those who may be thinking of joining our industry and help to further erode an industry which right now needs every bit of support it can get. Oh, but don't forget, all proceeds can go back to supporting the industry (Cameras from Canada or something??) Confused Dick? You bet you are.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Don't fool yourself Dick....... you are a very significant driver of the current delcine in Australian GA. The team at CASA will be loving you.

I would urge anyone who is not a Dick Smith type defeatist to NOT attend what is nothing more than an exercise in personal publicity. Dick Smith, CANCEL this ridiculous wake!

[TBM-Legend]

So what have you done to enhance GA?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I agree with Nulli Seccundus.

Anyone who sggests that Dick run a positive agenda is completely ignored. Tried to push him at the first Tamworth rally but he was totally uninterested in any positive messaging.

Is he or is he not doing the property developers bidding?Once Dick Smith declares the industry dead, the General Public need not worry about it any more right?

...If Dick Smith says it's dead we'll worry about Bulk Billing and the Kid's education and no fking way will I let my kids learn to fly for a career.

In fact, if Dick says the industry is dead why not pull all the government funding and just shut the airports?

[fujii]

It's known as self fulfilling prophecy. Run it down then say "I told you so."

[Styx75]

I thought the issues Dick was facing where for aircraft flying ifr only. Just got told the other day thats its vfr aircraft by 2019 as well. That cost is going to go right on the hire price, for those clubs and schools that decide to go through with it. Hire price is already high, so 2018 will probably be my final year of flight.

Unless that is; Dick can use these costs he's facing to highlight this is happening all over the industry, and we get behind him... Or someone gets a better idea in the meantime.

See you Thursday Dick :-)

[Stanwell]

Quite so, Styx.
So, what are you chaps going to do then? .. What's your plan?
Stand there like a rabbit in the headlights, having hopeful and positive thoughts?

Or ... use every means possible to draw attention to what's happening?

[Square Bear]

So, what are you chaps going to do then? .. What's your plan?

They will probably sit back, watch and bag someone who is at least doing something to draw attention to the issue.

Way I see it, not many outside of PPRuNe or the financiers know or care one iota about what is happening to GA. It is not like the problems get any airtime.

At least Dick might get the issue 60 or so seconds of publicity, if nothing important like "dog chews bone" happens on the day and drags media away from the event.

[wishiwasupthere]

You blokes are kidding yourselves if you think a media stunt about a rich man selling his expensive toy is going to elicit sympathy from anyone.

[Stanwell]

Good, Wishi ... What's your plan, then? .. Eh?
In any case, I think Dick Smith has enough media savvy to get the REAL message across, regardless of how simplistically you may perceive the idea at the moment.

[Old Akro]

I find a lot of this debate offensive.

You need to take a broader view of what Dick is doing and consider his situation objectively.

His situation is more severe than most, but we all face significant issues with the implementation of ADS-B. We just spent somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 the value of our aircraft to make it ADS-B compliant - with zero safety benefit.

Dick has an aircraft that has effectively been rendered worthless in Australia because CASA has unreasonably pursued a regulation that is unique in the world and is being implemented before there are reasonable technical solutions.

Australia is the only country in the world that is mandating ADS-B for all IFR aircraft in all airspace at all levels.

Australia is implementing ADS-B at least 3 years before it is required in the country that makes the aircraft and basically all the electronic equipment required.

OSHKOSH gets more aircraft landing at one airfield for an airshow that we have registered in Australia. But CASA thinks we can dictate timing to US based equipment suppliers. CASA's lack of insight into what they are doing is breathtaking.

The value of the CJ-3 is not relevant. There are plenty of guys with TBM's, PC12's, choppers and other aircraft of similar or greater value and none of them are subject to the abuse that Dick is. A new Baron is probably worth not much less that Dick's 10 year old CJ-3. The truth is that many of the difficulties that he suffers are common to cheaper aircraft.

And the general public thinks that all of us who fly or own aircraft are the rich elite. I would suggest that the general public don't recognise that our Seneca is worth 1/20th of the CJ-3. Or that you can buy an aircraft for less than a well equipped fishing boat. They see us all as elite.

The argument that Dick is special because he can sell his aircraft overseas is so naive is laughable. Aircraft are an international market. Once the difference in value to that in another country by a bigger amount that the freight, then aeroplanes change countries. Yak's, C120's, Ercoupes, and all variety of aircraft come here. Similarly its just as easy to fly or ship an aircraft overseas.

Finally, what Dick Smith is doing is what he does best. He's creating a media event to bring attention to the fact that CASA is strangling private aviation through arbitrary regulations that are made in ignorance of the real world and without care of the impact on General Aviation.

Why does Dick have to do this? Because our peak bodies have deserted us.

The only 3 guys who have gotten any attention from government in recent years are:
1. Jeff Boyd - when he was preseident of an AIRLINE association, now Chair of CASA and it remains to be seen if this has "neutalised" him.
2. Benjamin Morgan - a magazine publisher
3. Dick Smith - essentially a private pilot.

Today in an email from "Flying Magazine" it is announced that aviation medical reforms for General Aviation will become law today. Where is the impulsion in Australia for reform like this? CASA are running riot and are immune to scrutiny without high profile people like Benjamin & Dick.

Anyone who doesn't think there is a crisis in GA has their head in the sand. The number of IFR aircraft being retired and the number of fit healthy pilots giving up because they are sick of dealing with CASA AVMED, ASIC cards etc is alarming.

We all fly with discretionary money. The harder CASA makes things, the more appealing other activities become.

[thorn bird]

AKRO: hear bloody hear!!

What we read on these threads from alleged "Pundits" clearly indicates why CAsA get away with it.

[rutan around]

Nulli Secundus has taken it upon himself to offer a diatribe of unwarranted advice to Dick Smith.

As a result I have some advice to Dick re types like Nulli Secundus.

"Noli nothis permittere te terere"

[Torres]

I know I shouldn't, but.........

PPRuNe Forums - Home of the Tall Poppy Syndrome!

I eagerly await alternate proposals to awaken Australian GA, from Nulli Secundus and Horatio!! :ok:

[Dick Smith]

Because of the fact that both AsA and CASA are now run by ex military people who have been effected not one iota by the one way ratchet of cost increases I see the continued destruction of the GA industry.

Any losses by getting out now will be less than the losses incurred by those who battle on.

Also my message may just get Jeff Boyd and his board to stand up for GA and not remain wimps. But I don't see evidence of this.

I should have sold my citation two years ago. The delay will cost at least $1m. Similar losses will be incurred by those who don't get out now. It's like an alcoholic- need to get to the bottom before rehabilitation can take place.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Yeah, I am about to hang up my headset - GA is dead!

[LeadSled]

Old Akro,
So very well put!!
What is even more galling is that CASA activity, regardless of cost or effectiveness, runs completely to Government policy, and, indeed, CASA's own professed "policy", which it just ignores.
Sadly, there is no shortage of rent seekers in the aviation community that actually support CASA over regulation, in the belief that "they" will benefit.
Somewhat like the latest federal election results.
Tootle pip!!

[das Uber Soldat]

You couldn't just PM him?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I eagerly await alternate proposals to awaken Australian GA, from Nulli Secundus and Horatio!!

Yeah yeah.

Ben Morgan has done more to take the issue to the regulator's door and get it into the media in 6 months than Dick has done in 10 years.

More power to Ben Morgan.

If he can pick up some of the policy territory between RAAus and the bottom end of RAAA then he may have most of the GA INDUSTRY supporting AOPA, a situation that hasn't existed since Dick Smith, Bill Pike and friends went on their anti-industry rampage over Airspace Alphabets back in 2000 ish.

Go Benny, give them hell.

[Dick Smith]

I agree. Ben is the hope for the future as he is young and a hard worker.

I agree I have failed but it wasn't without trying. Clearly beyond my abilities.

In the meantime I am very worried about those small business people in GA who I fear may lose everything .

[Old Akro]

Yeah yeah.

Ben Morgan has done more to take the issue to the regulator's door and get it into the media in 6 months than Dick has done in 10 years.

More power to Ben Morgan.

If he can pick up some of the policy territory between RAAus and the bottom end of RAAA then he may have most of the GA INDUSTRY supporting AOPA, a situation that hasn't existed since Dick Smith, Bill Pike and friends went on their anti-industry rampage over Airspace Alphabets back in 2000 ish.

Go Benny, give them hell.

But the whole point is that it shouldn't be up to Ben Morgan or Dick Smith, or Boyd Munro, etc.

One of the problems with Australia is that government (and especially the public service side of government) only listen to peak bodies. And our peak bodies have failed us. They have failed us badly.

CASA has failed us with lack of understanding / connection with aviation.

Successive ministers of both sides of politics have failed us since the rot started ( in my opinion) with Charlie Jones who in the Whitlam government started us down the cost recovery path that has continued unabated since.

[Sunfish]

old Akro:

One of the problems with Australia is that government (and especially the public service side of government) only listen to peak bodies. And our peak bodies have failed us. They have failed us badly.


absolutely right, they have been bought off by CASA.

[glenb]

Dick,

Firstly, i have an enormous amount of respect for you, and what you have done for our Country, and your passion. Make no mistake, i am an advocate.

But please, i feel your disregard for the Military influence in CASA is unwarranted and disrespectful. I have no Military experience or connections whatsoever. I do know that any person who was prepared to stand in front of my family or your family and perhaps pay with their life, quite simply is entitled to a certain level of respect. Sweeping statements about Military Personnel being a cause of problems in CASA is not justified.

Dick. I have my Business because as a Kid i saw your face on the stores and it clicked that real people own Businesses. It sparked that desire. It was instrumental in creating it. That same Business only exists today because of the capabilities of ex Military people at CASA to "get it".

These people have the same passion for our Country that you do. Lets keep it professional. Constant criticisms that they are responsible for our woes, is way off the mark in my opinion.

[Sunfish]

Glen b, I disagree strongly with your characterization of the military as heroic warriors, it is a very dangerous belief. In my experience, most of the air force is there to get free training that can later be sold in the private sector. Less so the Navy and Army.

The American characterization is "too lazy to work and too scared to steal". British law also treats the military as "citizens differently armed". World wars one and two were in part caused by German and later Japanese misplaced reverence for their military caste.

Alternately you can put me on a pedestal too for standing ready to defend you against the Vietnamese hordes all those years ago.

To put that another way, save it for Anzac Day.

[glenb]

"heroic warriors" has got nothing to do with it. it's about Professionalism, Ethics, appreciation of structures, reporting, accountability, analysing, competence, procedures etc. All of this exposure and experience that we miss out on in GA, in my humble opinion. and Respect!

[601]

"heroic warriors" has got nothing to do with it. it's about Professionalism, Ethics, appreciation of structures, reporting, accountability, analysing, competence, procedures etc. All of this exposure and experience that we miss out on in GA, in my humble opinion. and Respect!

Sure they may have all of the above, but have they ever put their own assets on the line. In the military there are established and well defined structures and procedures that everyone works to.
In CASA there is no established and well defined structures and procedures. They may be Volumes published but everyone, including ex-military types, operate in their own world and with their own interpretations of the publications, both internal and public. This not only exists between Canberra and the Regions, but between the Regions and even extends to between staff in the same region.

How do I know? I only had 30 years of operating in the GA sector and 20 years of direct face to face dealings with the all the regions. When one had to start asking in which Region a person was or intending to operate, things started going downhill.

I am now glad I am out of it.

[Sandy Reith]

Quite so, Styx.
So, what are you chaps going to do then? .. What's your plan?
Stand there like a rabbit in the headlights, having hopeful and positive thoughts?

Or ... use every means possible to draw attention to what's happening?

Sniping at Dick is a null response. When Dick was in charge at CASA it was like dawn breaking, when he left the darkness descended again and it's been growing darker ever since. If Dick gets worldwide publicity then so much the better, Australia needs the embarrassment in order for the message to be rammed home to the body politic. Dick still supports GA, he and I and one other GA personality have commissioned a report into the failure of the regulatory regime and the consequent decline of GA. The aim is to persuade politicians to cause reform for growth. It's far from the first time that Dick has stumped up his cash for a cause, usually anonymously and he probably won't thank me for exposing his financial input.

As a GA airport and aircraft owner operator, flying school CFI, twin training and licence testing approvals, CP for IFR charter and RPT operations I have watched for 30 years, with dismay, the death by a thousand cuts of what should be a growing industry. On top of this safety is suffering.

Excessive and prescriptive regulation, heavy handed bureaucratic administration and a new rule set, inappropriately made part of the criminal law, is applied after a 26 year gestation period. This extraordinary and unworkable rule set now requires a suite of exemptions which are being hurriedly promulgated to prevent a complete collapse of General Aviation, especially flight training.

Safety suffers because of confusion, what is exactly lawful and what is not?

Safety suffers because we do not utilise experienced personnel. There's too much time consuming and wasteful paperwork coupled with insufficient incentives to remain in a shrinking industry.

Safety suffers because lack of activity has pushed up avgas fuel prices and caused closure of refueling facilities all over Australia thus reducing options for safe fuel endurance, and increasing costs.

Safety suffers because more just drop out of legal flying. When you live way out in the bush, faced with SIDS, biennial flight reviews and expensive medicals no imagination is needed to see what will happen.

Safety suffers because costs and impossible regulation reduces flying hours, recency drops off, pilots simply get out of practice.

I believe we should systematically list and repeatedly get out the message that there must be incentives, attractive remuneration is a prerequisite, and part of a healthy industry. There are too many road blocks, like the instructor who is still trying since November to achieve a flying school permit. She had to part with an $8000 fee to CASA, for what? She is already qualified. In the States she would have been working since November with no fee gouging. The flying school she is trying to reestablish was operative for at least 40 years to my certain knowledge. The previous incumbent now works for guess who. Last I spoke to the applicant the permission was on hold because the CASA official dealing with it went on holiday. Preventing someone from working is against human rights. CASA has effectively taken the money under false pretenses and keeping her dangling is completely unacceptable.

The model of an independent Commonwealth body with minimal Ministerial oversight is a failure. The Board of CASA have been removed from policy formation and the CEO, the oddly styled 'Director of Air Safety' (sitting on cloud 9 with a baton?) has virtually unfettered power, thus making the Board impotent and redundant.

It is more clear than ever that the only way forward is political action and publicity from Dick is greatly welcomed.

[aroa]

Wren says it all Hear hear !!

[Old Akro]

Wren

and...

Safety suffers because we fly less
Safety suffers because we have no navaids for training / practice anymore
Safety suffers because less people / aircraft are IFR because of Pt 61 & ADS-B
Safety suffers because airports are dropping being licenced and / or have IFR approaches because its too expensive.

[Ultralights]

Post of the decade by wren!

[thorn bird]

With the money the Mcbanks send to offshore tax havens every year one can only imagine what aviation infrastructure could be.

yesterday Sydney was compromised by heavy fog, Brisbane today.

Almost every airline aircraft operating to these airports today are capable of CAT 111 approaches, yet Australia as a whole does not enjoy what the rest of the world enjoys.

Europe, in winter would grind to a halt without low vis procedures.

Yesterday and today considerable amounts of money got pissed up against the wall with multiple diversions, expense and inconvenience to travellers because our airport owners see more value in parking lots than using any of their ill gotten gains on public infrastructure.

How many emergency approaches are conducted every year in Australia to CAT 111 minima on CAT 1 ground aids? Would the Mildura event have occurred if Adelaide had CAT 111 equipment and procedures in place? The holes in the swiss cheese are inevitably lining up.

Our secondary airports much the same.

The Murky Mandarin engineered the delivery of secondary airports into the hands of development sharks. Greed and corruption the end result. Bankstown alone has descended into a lawyer fest. Law suites at twenty paces to divide up the spoils.

When the Secondaries were publicly owned they cost the government NOTHING, public land, publicly administered returned the government a modest profit every year under the FAC. Today millions are being spent on lawyers to decide who gets the mega bucks out of development of what was public land reserved for aviation.

The same principles devoted to "privatising" secondary airports could be applied to our national parks. Now wouldn't Mc Bank just love to get hold of them.

It is corruption at its finest.

[Sandy Reith]

Wren

and...

Safety suffers because we fly less
Safety suffers because we have no navaids for training / practice anymore
Safety suffers because less people / aircraft are IFR because of Pt 61 & ADS-B
Safety suffers because airports are dropping being licenced and / or have IFR approaches because its too expensive.

And...

Safety suffers because people are driving when they'd be safer flying.

And...

We don't train enough home grown pilots to supply our airlines, hence they are on the 457 workers visa list. Not ideal and the training money and GA wages prior to the pilot graduating to airlines should retained within Australia.

Australia suffers from a higher government deficit. All those CASA public servants(?), say 400, being conservative, in excess of necessity, could be working in productive areas in private enterprise, quite apart from the hundreds of millions down the drain from sheer incompetence. How can circa $300 million be spent on a regulatory reform program over 28 years, still not finished, the last tranche a disaster, not be noticed?

We suffer from lack of freedom which leads to lack of innovation and the enjoyments of flying that we used enjoy in spades.

We suffer from fewer landing grounds because of less activity. Look for Google Earth popular destinations as I have and pick out the now unused private airstrips.

We suffer from being induced into the low weight category aircraft (LWCat) because of an easier medical and maintenance requirements. This a truly retrograde policy which dictates to designers to build down to a ridiculously low weight. Hats of to all those who have made the best of it, and there are perfectly designed low weight aircraft for particular use. Trouble is nothing disguises the truth that many aviators would be far better remaining with conventional GA aircraft. Where do you put the esky in a LWCat? How does a plus six footer fit into the average LWCat? Where's the range? They cannot fly IFR but a C150 can because it is strong enough. Thousands have gone to the low weight category simply because of a reasonable regulatory regime. Ironically a regime that is a near copy of what pertained during the great days of growth in VH GA of the 60s and 70s.

Many individuals have suffered at the hands of an all powerful bureaucracy in a manner that would not pass accepted legal norms.

To hide from the situation and trust the regulator to behave in a rational matter flies in the face of a disgraceful history spanning at least 30 years. A wake every week at an airport near you would be great. Awake Australia Aviation is our hope but without change 'a wake' will be very appropriate for GA as a whole.

[Jabawocky]

Akro

His situation is more severe than most, but we all face significant issues with the implementation of ADS-B. We just spent somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 the value of our aircraft to make it ADS-B compliant - with zero safety benefit.

I have posted this before. If you took your reinvestment in motor cars over the same tim period since your Seneca or whatever was built, you would have many hundreds of thousands to spend on re-equiping.

The argument is fatally flawed. You are miles in front yet you want it for free. It makes no sense.

[Flying Binghi]

via Jabawocky:
...The argument is fatally flawed. You are miles in front yet you want it for free. It makes no sense.

Most dont want it nor do they need it..:hmm:

At any rate. As I've noted before, ADSB needs GPS and GPS is just what the islamic nutters need, a drone bomb targeting system that we have no viable defense against at this time.
As an example, a couple of days ago Israel fired off a couple of patriot missles at a drone and missed! I dont yet know if they isolated the GPS signals to send the drone off track though I'd imagine the whole exercise probably cost Israel many hundreds of thousands of dollars... and the drone likely cost the terrorists a few hundred dollars and a couple of easily replaceable 'martyrs'.

"Two Patriot air defence missiles were fired towards a drone which infiltrated Israeli airspace in the central Golan Heights. The drone returned to Syria," the Israeli army said.

Ynetnews News - Patriot missiles fired at aircraft in Golan Heights (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4829556,00.html)

Drone Expert Concerned by Failure to Shoot Down UAV That Penetrated Israeli Airspace - Israel News - Haaretz (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.731791)


We set up Oz airspace to be reliant on a GPS based ADSB system and when the first terrorist drones start wandering in over the Oz coast there will be aviation chaos when the civvy GPS gets turned off. Likely, because we've become reliant on GPS, most of the light aircraft will be banned from the east coast regions that have heavy jet traffic. i.e., where most of the light aircraft are based.

It is compleat and utter idiocy to bring in any GPS based system until such time as the GPS guided terrorist bomb drones can be neutralized. In fact I'd think it were criminal to do so as the implementers of the system should know of the terrorist bomb threat and I'd think they'd have to be getting some sort of kick-backs to be still working on it at this time..:hmm:

"...Commercially available drones have the potential to be converted into flying bombs capable of hitting targets such as nuclear power stations or the prime minister’s car, a report by a security thinktank has warned..."

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/11/drones-terrorist-attacks-security-thinktank






.

[Nulli Secundus]

"Happy people are our best ambassadors so if you've been an AOPA member for a long time, please tell your friends who aren't members what we are trying to do to make flying easier in Australia. We need membership as political capital to show the regulator and their political masters that we represent a large body of pilots who wish to be heard at the highest level.
That can only come from having a large membership"

Aaron Stephenson, AOPA Australia CEO April 2015



He gets it and notwithstanding the rather dismal effort so far to achieve any significant growth in numbers joining AOPA, the fact remains the day you give up and predict you can't succeed (as Dick Smith plans to announce on Thursday) is the day you are defeated. That's the day its all over.

No team ever pulled off a win by announcing imminent defeat. Champions are those who turn a dire situtaion into a win.

Call it off Dick and how about forgetting this nonsense that GA has no future. It does have a future and it will get brighter the more effort and innovation people are prepared to put in. How about getting behind AOPA, help them set and achieve serious targets for new memberships with a base of circa 20,000 members in say 3-4 years. Invite overseas speakers to highlight the national economic benefits of simpler regulation. Definitely invite media and politicians to these addresses which now sets out a vision for aviation in Australia that is too good to ignore. A vision that attracts revenue from holidaying foreign pilots, reduces unemployment and creates work opportunities and develops commercial enterprises. General aviation has an enormous potential to deliver a massive boost to our economy. There's so much more than just these few ideas.

But it can only start from a positive foundation that is properly presented to those people who need to buy in to this vision - politicians, state and local governments and potential new participants. Once a tipping point is reached you achieve success and regain control of the GA future.

Call it off Dick.

[Dick Smith]

I will make a major announcement re supporting AOPA when the income from the aircraft sale comes in. Remember I said I will be giving all of the money away .

However until there is some new direction from the elected government re reducing all unnecessary costs the industry is doomed for all but the airlines and wealthy individuals.

Huge losses take place every year in the value of GA businesses and when the CASA predicted $30 m hit comes in from the unique transponder mandate for all IFR aircraft in Feb next year even more damage will be done ,

[gerry111]

wren 460 wrote:

"Safety suffers because lack of activity has pushed up avgas fuel prices and caused closure of refueling facilities all over Australia thus reducing options for safe fuel endurance, and increasing costs."

I'm on your side too. But where are all these now closed refuelling facilities? That's not my experience over the last 30 years.

More importantly, Dick. What's on the Thursday lunch sandwich menu?

[Sandy Reith]

wren 460 wrote:

"Safety suffers because lack of activity has pushed up avgas fuel prices and caused closure of refueling facilities all over Australia thus reducing options for safe fuel endurance, and increasing costs."

I'm on your side too. But where are all these now closed refuelling facilities? That's not my experience over the last 30 years.

More importantly, Dick. What's on the Thursday lunch sandwich menu?

If you've kept over the years those fuel co leaflets with the refueling points dotted on their maps you'd see what I mean. And next time you're flying an early 172 with 140 lt useable around the outback, plan carefully.

[Sandy Reith]

Akro



I have posted this before. If you took your reinvestment in motor cars over the same tim period since your Seneca or whatever was built, you would have many hundreds of thousands to spend on re-equiping.

The argument is fatally flawed. You are miles in front yet you want it for free. It makes no sense.

With respect Akro, I'm not following your logic. I've never bought a new car or aircraft. Would have been impossible in my GA environment. How to make a small fortune in aviation ?.......
One double engine and prop O/H on the Seneca example would have bought me just about all the cars I've ever owned, not to mention the squillions spent on aircraft maintenance. Even then you are talking chalk and cheese, I think we are talking commercial flying ops which is very different to private car ownership if that's relevant.

[no_one]

I do think that it's important to frame the discussion in a positive way rather than focusing on the negative. We need to be saying how it could be so much better if the rules were more coherent rather than running around saying that we are all doomed.

Sometimes this industry is its own worst enemy. I always talk to people about how I love to fly and if they show any interest will happily take them for a flight. I took a friend for a flight and he loved it. Not short of a few bob and recently retired he decided to learn to fly. Turned up at one of the well respected flying schools at Camden. He went for a TIF and loved it. Afterwards, the instructor/operator chated about the licensing process but basically ranted on about how casa would take weeks to issue a student pilot license, would lose the paperwork and with the changes to part 61 wasnt sure if the industry would survive 6 months. On the way home my friend called the sailmaker and droped $30k on a new set of sails for his yacht. Why bother with flying if it's all so hard....

[Dick Smith]

I am using a local Bk small business to supply lunch for 50 people. Costing over $1000 so hopefully will be good. Latecomers will have to go to the airport shop - oh I forgot. It closed down

[Ovation]

GA is under threat from two sides - over regulation by CASA, and being squeezed out by airport owners.

Now while Dick Smith may a different way of expressing his opinions and feelings, I reckon he's fairly close to the truth. I started flying in October 1977 at Parafield when the grass parking area to the East of the Eastern apron and South of the Southern apron was chock-a-block with light aircraft - I'd guess about 100-120, all hardstands were full, and flying schools were busy.

When I became an aircraft owner in August 1996 there were a few parked on grass off the aprons - my guess would be 20-30 at the most, with the hardstand to the South full but to the East starting to thin. In July 2016 there are (generally) no aircraft on the grass,with plenty of unoccupied hardstand restricted to local operators.

Most secondary airports are being encroached upon by shopping centres and outlet malls, with airport owners relishing the day when they can say "sorry, there's not enough business to keep it open", and there'll be champagne corks popping as the sites are rezoned residential.

So Dick, I think you're right on the money, it's only a matter of time.

[Sandy Reith]

I do think that it's important to frame the discussion in a positive way rather than focusing on the negative. We need to be saying how it could be so much better if the rules were more coherent rather than running around saying that we are all doomed.

Sometimes this industry is its own worst enemy. I always talk to people about how I love to fly and if they show any interest will happily take them for a flight. I took a friend for a flight and he loved it. Not short of a few bob and recently retired he decided to learn to fly. Turned up at one of the well respected flying schools at Camden. He went for a TIF and loved it. Afterwards, the instructor/operator chated about the licensing process but basically ranted on about how casa would take weeks to issue a student pilot license, would lose the paperwork and with the changes to part 61 wasnt sure if the industry would survive 6 months. On the way home my friend called the sailmaker and droped $30k on a new set of sails for his yacht. Why bother with flying if it's all so hard....

No_one, as portrayed your Camden instructor was not being a great salesman but was honest.

It's not much point in whingeing about the whingeing. Everyone is free to put their slant on the sad situation. You can't expect after 30 years of the worst public administration that there's an expectation that we can sit around the table all chummy and resolve the mess. I started writing to my MPs at least 30 years ago, with few notable exceptions it was lonely work. Even today where's the AFAP and its several thousand members? If I was in a sour mood I'd say most were sitting too high on their wallets to give a rats about GA. But that's just one group who are not prominent in AOPA or TAAAF. Sometimes its the stick and sometimes the carrot, can we win over the politicians? I don't know but if we take the pressure off we will not. Nothing is more certain than that because CASA will never reform itself.