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rans6andrew
11th Jul 2016, 20:36
Ecotricity has announced the start of charging (money) for the use of it's motor charging (electricity) points. The cost proposed at the moment is 6 per up to 30 mins of plug in time. This is angering the folk that bought Hybrid vehicles, some of which only travel 25 to 30 miles on their batteries between top ups. This equates to more than 20 pence per mile and puts the electrical motoring at a higher cost than the fossil fuel motoring in the same vehicle.

I would be a bit brassed off if I had been persuaded to buy a hybrid, at serious money, on the premise that electricity for it was going to be cheap/free.

Just as a comparison, I estimate that my Sub Legacy has burned about 20K of petrol over it's life so far (125K miles) since 2000. If I had coughed up for this at the start (I assume the "fuel" cost of the Teslas is factored into the purchase price) there would have been a sizeable cost in loss of interest to be added to the running cost of the car. How many Tesla owners have considered this hidden cost I wonder?

qwertyuiop
11th Jul 2016, 20:54
Anybody who has purchased a hybrid/electric car thinking the subsidies will continue is a mug!

Windy Militant
11th Jul 2016, 21:27
My boss has just part exed his Skoda Fabia for a two year old Nissan leaf, reckons that the battery has dropped to 95% of its original capacity and still at the moment has a range of 100 miles on a full charge. According to the costings he's worked out it costs him fifty pence a day to do the sixty mile round trip to work, using domestic rate electricity slow charging over night. According to him a thirty minute fast charge will put 85% to 90% into the battery from flat. The equivalent amount of diesel into his Skoda Fabia would have been between thirty-five and forty quid. Also if you swap to buying your domestic gas and lecky from Ecotricty fast charging will remain free. ;)

There are also a couple of firms that have now been licensed by Nissan to replace individual cells in the battery which means you don't have to lash out for a full set if the battery starts dropping off. As he said when asked it's the same chance you take with an oil pump or cam belt failure on an IC engine.
He also said it surprised the hell out of the bloke that used to regularly tailgate him up the hill on the last stretch into work as it apparently accelerates a lot faster that the Skoda, however that does use a lot of the charge and knocks spots out of the front tyres!:}

G-CPTN
11th Jul 2016, 21:32
According to the costings he's worked out it costs him fifty pence a day to do the sixty mile round trip to work, using domestic rate electricity slow charging over night. The equivalent amount of diesel into his Skoda Fabia would have been between thirty-five and forty quid.
Something wrong there, Shirley?

My car (a diesel) would do 100 miles on 10 of fuel - no more than 20 in stop start city traffic.

Windy Militant
11th Jul 2016, 21:45
Sorry he was comparing the capacity. To fill the Skoda to 80% full would indeed give you more range but a fiver to do a hundred miles or so is still not bad and stop start traffic doesn't affect the charge depletion as much as it affects IC engines.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was
11th Jul 2016, 21:46
I would be a bit brassed off if I had been persuaded to buy a hybrid, at serious money, on the premise that electricity for it was going to be cheap/free.

However, the actual electricity was never cheap, or free. Until now it was just paid for by someone else.

Cazalet33
11th Jul 2016, 22:50
To be fair to Ecotricity, they always said that they'd levy a fee at some point in the future. They just didn't say when or how much.

For us Tesla drivers, the new fee will be a bit of a pain. For one thing, it'll put more demand on Superchargers as so many of us have become so used to having "free" juice. The Ecotricity "electric highway" was a useful adjunct as they have so many more chargers in their network (in the UK) than Tesla.

er340790
11th Jul 2016, 23:36
I drove my first Hybrid last year out in BC. As a Rental Car they are GREAT :D I threw it around and still averaged close to 65 mpg. From 0-30mph it could surprise much faster cars away from the lights with its batteries and petrol motor going full-chat. :E

The crux is that owners of such vehicles are getting hammered with new sets of batteries for up to $10k after 5-6 years. Taxi drivers in Winnipeg tell me their battery life is even less and range is minimal in -40c Winter driving.

Until an effective way of leasing batteries is found, it will only be a niche market...

By which time Hydrogen-power will hopefully have arrived.:}

Cazalet33
11th Jul 2016, 23:38
(I assume the "fuel" cost of the Teslas is factored into the purchase price) there would have been a sizeable cost in loss of interest to be added to the running cost of the car. How many Tesla owners have considered this hidden cost I wonder?

I can answer that one, though my situation is not necessarily representative of many other Tesla owners.

I have a bit of land and have installed a very large pv array as well as a slightly wonky wind turbine. I often have far more power than I can possibly use, so for home charging my power is effectively "free". Of course the capex was large, but the bonkers FIT subsidy took care of that and I'm well into profit.

The capex on my Model S was also huge, but the running costs over the next seven years will be tiny. Tyres and insurance are expensive, but all services in the first eight years are already paid for. Future inflation costs are pretty much balanced out by loss of interest on the up-front payment. I took a painful hit last year when I bought the car, but I love the freedom from bills in day to day usage.

It's the opposite of what many people do by saddling themselves with perma-debt on hire purchase and leasing deals. Just a different way of thinking.

With almost a year now, I've no regrets.

Cazalet33
11th Jul 2016, 23:49
Hydrogen power is interesting and I certainly wouldn't write it off, but it has some intrinsic problems which may turn out to be insurmountable.

It's a bugger to store in a car. If you 'make' your hydrogen in a 'green' manner, ie by electrolysing water which green power then you run into the fundamental physical problem that electrolysis is hugely inefficient in terms of energy use.

The oil industry is pushing for it, but that's only because it's a way for them to sell even more oil & gas. The dinosaur car companies love it because it means selling more piston bangers and all the crap that goes with that 19th century technology.

G-CPTN
12th Jul 2016, 00:09
I read today about a proposal to convert methane to hydrogen (and CO2) for use in domestic dwellings:-
UK homes could be heated by hydrogen (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/09/uk-homes-could-be-heated-by-hydrogen-under-plan-to-tackle-global/).

Cazalet33
12th Jul 2016, 00:44
That's an interesting project, Cptn.

Not scalable to cars, though.

vapilot2004
12th Jul 2016, 04:09
RE: Hydrogen - I thought fuel cells were the destination on the way to the prime mover (electric motor) rather than going directly to the old bang bang types.

PDR1
12th Jul 2016, 07:19
RE: Hydrogen - I thought fuel cells were the destination on the way to the prime mover (electric motor) rather than going directly to the old bang bang types.

The point is that you can do either - initially you can use the proven, mature technology of the internal combustion engine without the attendant emissions issues, and then you can migrate to fuel cells if a solution to the scarce materials problems can be found.

But hydrogen (like most electricity) is currently not an energy source, but just an energy storage & transport medium. If you're electrolysing water to get it then the energy source is that used to do the electrolysis, which might even be a fossil-fuel fired power station!

With hydrogen this MAY change if we can mature the "biohydrogen" technology (GM aquatic organisms that produce hydrogen using solar energy), but we're quit a long way off that as yet.

PDR

vapilot2004
12th Jul 2016, 09:40
Interesting PDR, and that first paragraph certainly puts a logical deployment sequence in perspective. Thank you.

Tech Guy
12th Jul 2016, 11:56
Drug dealer modus operandi.

Give it out free until you are addicted, then ramp the price up.

Cazalet33
12th Jul 2016, 16:58
That is very exactly the Ecotricity business model for their "free" chargers. Get 'em to swallow the hook deep, then yank hard and long to reel the suckers in.

Tesla Motors promise us that our Superchargers will always be free, but I know that the situation is not sustainable once they are producing half a million cars a year. My guess is that they will simply let demand for Superchargers outstrip supply and then all those of Model 3 owners will get used to having to pay to recharge at third party rechargers. It's a matter of moulding people's perceptions.

PDR1
12th Jul 2016, 17:12
Or "fraudulent misrepresentation", as the pedantically-inclined might call it.

PDR

Windy Militant
12th Jul 2016, 18:18
I'm peripherally involved in the next stage to this which may prove to be an interesting development!
hydrogen-breakthrough-could-be-a-game-changer-for-the-future-of-car-fuels (http://www.stfc.ac.uk/news/hydrogen-breakthrough-could-be-a-game-changer-for-the-future-of-car-fuels/)

MG23
12th Jul 2016, 18:19
I took a painful hit last year when I bought the car, but I love the freedom from bills in day to day usage.

Our Civic costs about $20 a week for gas, and $100 a year for servicing. And you can buy three of them for the cost of the Tesla.

MG23
12th Jul 2016, 18:21
Hydrogen power is interesting and I certainly wouldn't write it off, but it has some intrinsic problems which may turn out to be insurmountable.

The problem with hydrogen is that no-one has yet found a hydrogen mine.

Cazalet33
12th Jul 2016, 19:34
Other than the oggin. That mine has got twice as much Hydrogen as Oxygen, and it's got a shitload of both.

Loose rivets
12th Jul 2016, 21:19
I've always wondered what a shitload was. Now I know, and its sheer quantitative mass is beyond daunting.

The problem with hydrogen is that no-one has yet found a hydrogen mine.

No, but they have recently found a helium mine, which it seems is in the knick of time.
Not sure how one can make a car go with it. Perhaps one can run on un-fusioning it. :eek:

Massive helium gas field found in Tanzania hailed (http://ippmedia.com/news/massive-helium-gas-field-found-tanzania-hailed)

vapilot2004
12th Jul 2016, 22:14
Not sure how one can make a car go up with it.

Balloons and ropes should do the trick.

PDR1
12th Jul 2016, 22:18
Other than the oggin. That mine has got twice as much Hydrogen as Oxygen, and it's got a shitload of both.
But it's USED hydrogen, and you need to insert energy (inefficiently) to return it to an unused state.

So it isn't really of much use.

PDR

vapilot2004
12th Jul 2016, 23:12
PDR, true today, but science has been advancing on making electrolysis more efficient, with an ultimate goal of photovoltaic or plain sunlight as the energy input source.

MG23
12th Jul 2016, 23:25
PDR, true today, but science has been advancing on making electrolysis more efficient, with an ultimate goal of photovoltaic or plain sunlight as the energy input source.

Assuming Google's numbers for the energy content of petrol are correct, even if you had perfect conversion of energy, you'd need something like 200 square metres of solar panels to produce the amount of fuel my car needs while I'm driving it.

vapilot2004
13th Jul 2016, 00:39
That's one of the hardest aspects of getting away from petroleum-based fuels - the energy density is tough to beat.

AtomKraft
13th Jul 2016, 04:10
If electric vehicles ever become as widespread as 'petroleum' powered ones- the cost will be exactly the same to run a leccy car as a gas driven one.

The only time when it will be cheaper is when the authorities are trying to encourage their adoption. ie now!

So make hay while the sun shines, you early adopters of the new leccy tech. By the time we've all got one of these things, they'll be just as dear to run as todays IC cars.

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 05:36
Assuming Google's numbers for the energy content of petrol are correct, even if you had perfect conversion of energy, you'd need something like 200 square metres of solar panels to produce the amount of fuel my car needs while I'm driving it.

I have a pv array of 120 panels, each 1.5m x 2.5m. Fully paid for now thanks to a nutty subsidy scheme. At 56N they are lousy in a Scottish winter, but in summer they are great. I just wish I had a second 90kWh battery to soak up the surplus power I produce.

In the UK the average mileage for 97% of private car journey 27 miles or less. My typical journey is 25 to 35 miles each way. A full charge gives easily 250 miles, but I seldom charge beyond 80-85%. I never discharge to zero, usually to 10-25%. So I get by using about half the range capacity on a day to day basis, which is probably similar to most Brit car journeys in fossil cars.

Long distance journeys of several hundred miles take about the same amount of time as in a fossil car, thanks to the Supercharger network.

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 05:39
If electric vehicles ever become as widespread as 'petroleum' powered ones- the cost will be exactly the same to run a leccy car as a gas driven one.

Bollocks!

Electric cars are massively more efficient than piston bangers. Therefore they will always be cheaper to run. It's the damn stupid hybrids that will always be as expensive.

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 07:44
It's only efficient once you have the electrical energy. If you track the process from the energy source the efficiencies are much of a muchness for the typical user.

But that's irrelevant - in such a future most of the vehicle fuel cost will still be taxes, so the cost will be exactly the same for the switch to be revenue-neutral. It's either that or a 20,000/yr tax on each bar on civilian epaulettes and jacket sleeves, obviously.

PDR

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 07:46
PDR, true today, but science has been advancing on making electrolysis more efficient, with an ultimate goal of photovoltaic or plain sunlight as the energy input source.
As an absolute minimum the energy put INTO electrolysis will always be at least as much as the energy you can get OUT of the resulting hydrogen, because that's a bit fundamental. It's why "electrolysed" hydrogen (like electricity) will never be an energy SOURCE, just a storage and transportation medium.

PDR

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 11:44
As an absolute minimum the energy put INTO electrolysis will always be at least as much as the energy you can get OUT of the resulting hydrogen, because that's a bit fundamental. It's why "electrolysed" hydrogen (like electricity) will never be an energy SOURCE, just a storage and transportation medium.

What he said. :D

The only way that's ever going to be economical would be if we ever achieve the nirvana of having the technology for contained and controllable fusion producing electricity that is "too cheap to meter".

At the moment, good batteries are the way to go. Li-Ion are the best we've got this year, but I'd be surprised if there isn't a better one within two or three decades.

vapilot2004
13th Jul 2016, 12:16
That makes sense PDR. So with PV's providing the power Input, we have a way outside of batteries to store and transport energy converted from the sun.

Still not fully solar, as I understand there is further need for liquefaction and therefore cryonization in support of how we transport and store H2 now. So I suppose we will continue using Cazalet's batteries for a bit longer...

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 12:33
Actually using refined hydrocarbons is a much better bet. of course...

PDR

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 13:30
Yeah, just like coal is the way to go in the propulsion of persons vessels vehicles and structures.

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 14:52
Refined hydrocarbon liquids are easily made, easily transported and easily stored. In use they have an energy density (with respect to mass or volume) which is significantly better than hydrogen and pisses all over battery electrics. In terms of practicality the hydrocarbon fluid storage can be replenished in a matter of seconds, and the storage system doesn't lose efficiency if you fill or drain it at higher or lower rates. Unlike the crude battery system, when carrying a hydrocarbon fuel store you only carry the weight of the fuel you've yet to use, where as the archaic battery system requires you to keep carrying the fuel weight even after you've used it.

Batteries are clearly an inferior, ancient and obsolete technology - everyone can see that...

PDR

PS - I don't think I've ever seen coal-fired system used to propel a structure, but whatever sinks your boat...

AtomKraft
13th Jul 2016, 16:03
No Cazalet.
It ain't bollocks!

The U.K. Government will replace the tax they collect on fuel today, with guess what?
The tax they collect on fuel tomorrow!

Don't confuse cost with price.

Yes, leccy motor cars are more efficient- but what hospitals will have to close when the tax raised by today's road fuel goes?

Once we're all smoking around in Teslas or whatever, you'll find the PRICE (not the cost) will rise ever so rapidly.

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 16:14
what hospitals will have to close when the tax raised by today's road fuel goes?

Once we're all smoking around in Teslas or whatever, you'll find the PRICE (not the cost) will rise ever so rapidly.

Mebbe tobacco tax will pay for the NHS?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AdVfv6ki54

AtomKraft
13th Jul 2016, 16:21
Mebbe, mebbes not.

One thing that isn't going to change is that the UK Gov are going to continue to give folk who drive cars an utter shagging.

If you can find a way to run your car on smarties, the price of smarties is only going in one direction. And it's not down.

vulcanised
13th Jul 2016, 16:48
What colour Smarties?
.

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 16:55
Green, obviously - we can't run on environmentally-damaging smarties now can we?

PDR

Windy Militant
13th Jul 2016, 18:12
What colour Smarties?
Blue ones, they're like nitrous oxide! Well they used to super charge my cousins kids till she banned them from eating them! :}

Obviously no ones bothered reading my link in post 19 or you'd have noticed how a large European conglomerate is looking at synthesising ammonia to produce storable fuel which can be handled like LPG.:ugh:

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 18:37
We need to get away from piston bangers, even if someone finds a way to run them on horseshit or pine cones.

The electric car is here, now, and it's bloody marvellous!

Once you've driven one for a few months you tend to get a fit of the giggles when you see and hear and smell (and feel if you're inside) a piston banger starting up and noisily and slowly moving off. It really is a fekkin ridiculous mode of transport, the piston banger. Rather like steam powered cars or railway engines.

aerobelly
13th Jul 2016, 20:48
PS - I don't think I've ever seen coal-fired system used to propel a structure, but whatever sinks your boat...

I have stoked a 1920s coal fired tug across the Cambridgeshire fens . Billowing big clouds of black smoke, which I would normally take serious objection to, but this was the last of the Fen tug-boats and had a licence to pollute.

Should not have worn a white shirt though.


'a

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 21:03
battery system requires you to keep carrying the fuel weight even after you've used it

A battery doesn't get heavier when you fill it with energy.

A dinosaur's potty does.

PDR1
13th Jul 2016, 23:14
A battery doesn't get heavier when you fill it with energy.


Indeed it doesn't - it already weighs more than a medium-sized moon and unfortunately it manifestly fails to get lighter as the energy is used. Clearly inferior technology to satisfy the limited aspirations of the simpler intellect.

The proper person uses their internal-combustion powered personal transport to visit friends and socialise, and to take their children to school.

the electric car owner doesn't do this, partly because their car only has the range to get to the end of the drive and back but mainly because they don't know how to make friends, and they rarely have children because very few women are THAT desperate...

:p

PDR

Cazalet33
13th Jul 2016, 23:24
electric car owner doesn't do this, partly because their car only has the range to get to the end of the drive and back

Ah. One of those respondents, huh?

How little you know about the difference between a 1960's milk float and a modern car!

PDR1
14th Jul 2016, 07:19
No, I exaggerate because I get tired of blind evangelism. But the point is *relatively* true. My archaic piston-banger will carry four people plus luggage for over 500 real-use miles, and then after a 5 minute fuelling stop will do it again, and again, and again, and it's not unusual. No battery vehicle can currently (DYSWIDT?) even vaguely approach that sort of utility. Heck - it nearly killed Matt Damon when he had to keep stopping to recharge on his way to the Aries IV MAV!

If I take my archaic piston-banger to work with less than 25% inits energy store, and then an urgent need arises to be in Conningsby (175 miles away) I just need to stop for a couple of minutes and pour some liquid into the store. In one of these battery vehicles (an evolutionary blind alley - like the dinosaurs) I would have to plan a journey and take several Tom Clancy novels with me to read while its tediously slow refuelling process takes place several times.

Reign-in the evangelism, buddy - it just gets peoples' backs up and makes you look silly (which I'm sure you're not).

PDR

AtomKraft
14th Jul 2016, 09:27
PDR.
I quite agree, but that lack of flexibility is what renders leccy vehicles so useless.

Sure, if all you do is a fixed commute everyday, then u can cover it with a battery powered car- but if you like to smoke off for the day, and you're not sure if you'll do 25 or 250 miles, because different things might happen- who wants the ball ache of constantly thinking about how far the plug will go before its batt goes flat?

Not me!

I recently hired a batt car in Madrid. I finished up getting a bit lost and also going down to Getafe. There should have been enough wiggly amps available- and I never even turned on the radio, never mind the a/c, but the piece of crap dropped into tortoise mode before I could return it, then expired completely a couple of klicks from the rental return, so I had to abandon it and walk in.

A wee teensy ic engine to keep it going would have been nice.

'There's no replacement for displacement!' :E

vapilot2004
14th Jul 2016, 10:18
I don't own an electric car, but I've driven more than a few electric golf carts. They seem to get me where I need to go nearly every time. I would imagine the electric car has the same err potential for routine trips about town or long-distance journeys with breaks for charging planned along the way.

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 12:29
If you fly aeroplanes, as I do (and some others hereabouts) you soon get used to journey planning and energy management.

If you drive a fossil car, you soon get used to planning a journey vis a vis fuel.

If you drive an electric car, you soon get used to planning a journey vis a vis battery charge.

See the connection?

Sure, you don't fly a Baron or a C310 directly from Europe to the US. You stop off at places like Reykjavik; Narsarsuaq; Goose Bay etc. Similarly, when driving from Edinburgh to Berlin in a car, any car, you make a sensible plan, as I did in an electric car.

With a range of about 250 miles at sensible speeds, you have plenty of rest breaks. You chill out for half an hour and you do the tortoise thing instead of the hare thing. You arrive at the destination a little quicker than the hare, but you've had a much more relaxed time than the frazzled sucker in the piston banger and you haven't got a sore arse.

At a Supercharger I get a recharge rate of about 250mph. I usually only recharge for about 30-40 mins though. That's plenty of time to grab a meal, stretch the legs, point Percy at the porcelain etc. Much shorter breaks can be just as beneficial though.

Here's the profile of a recent journey, all within the UK.

Started with a charge of a little under 90%. Normal cruise speed throughout was 70mph, with many frequent and often quite lengthy bursts of 80 to avoid holding back following traffic in the fast(est) lane.

After a couple of hours: a ten minute stop to recharge and pee and buy and consume a small carton of milk to settle a grumbling tum.

Then an hour and a half of driving.

Followed by a half hour break to recharge and have a three-course meal and stroll around and to bicker with some JBer on some matter of no particular consequence.

Then two hours of driving, listening to [Jeff Wayne's] War of the Worlds amongst other stuff.

Ten minute break to recharge; pee; and see what that prat on JB had said next.

Final leg: an hour and a half of effortless driving, listening to BBC Radios 3 and 4.

Arrived at destination with 20% remaining, after 520 miles. Totally relaxed and well rested.

Autopilot served for well over 90% of the miles, with occasional manual disconnects in coned areas and to defend against the usual arseholes in BMWs and Audis and Chelsea tractors. There were a few occasions when I did a quick squirt to 100mph to get away from those prats, but the acceleration rate is such that you get to that speed from 80 faster than you can swear, and then when you lift off the accelerator much of that kinetic energy is popped back into the battery for later use.

Effortless driving. No engine noise. No engine/transmission vibration. No fatigue factors at all. Just chill room calm.

It's a different world from the old days in a piston banger.

Rwy in Sight
14th Jul 2016, 12:45
PDR1 & Cazalet33 can you see it like the energy management of your mobile where you make sure you never fall below let's say 20% but with the added benefit of the 80% fast charge?

cjm_2010
14th Jul 2016, 13:20
I don't know if it's already been mentioned in this thread, but the new Ecotricity rapid tariff is now 6 quid for 30 minutes.

It's not all doom and gloom. Most EV users will only occasionally use them - the vast majority of charging will still occur at home, overnight, at 7-11 pence per kWh.

And for me personally, with a 30kWh Leaf on a 2 year PCP (130 miles range if driven very carefully), it really won't have much of an effect at all. The Leaf will remain the cheapest and most reliable car I've ever owned by a huge margin.

By the time I'm handing the car back I'm expecting 60kWh / 200 mile EVs to be pretty commonplace. Dale Vince (Mr Ecotricity) openly said on an R4 interview this week than one of the main reasons this tariff was being introduced is to deter the plug in hybrid freeloaders (Mitsubishi Outlander drivers) hogging rapid units when they could simply fill up.

I'll still never consider going back to a combustion powered car as a daily driver. The Leaf is just too good.

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 13:31
RiS,

On my car you can look into all kinds of parameters, not only charging stuff from one's own mobile phone. It's a free app that Tesla gives owners, both on Android and on the cider thing.

MG23
14th Jul 2016, 13:51
If you drive a fossil car, you soon get used to planning a journey vis a vis fuel.

Uh, no. We just look for a gas station when it's starting to get low. Because they're everywhere, and take less than five minutes to 'charge' the car for another 500 miles.

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 14:15
500 miles of driving a piston banger, not stop, after holding a nozzle of toxic fluids for five minutes, is self-abuse. It's a totally shite life-style.

Get over it. Join the 21st century!

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 14:31
I'll still never consider going back to a combustion powered car as a daily driver.

I totally understand the experience behind that statement.

PDR1
14th Jul 2016, 14:43
I appreciate that at your age, and in your generally decrepit state of physical health, the prospect of driving for more than a few minutes or venturing more than ten minutes travel from toilet facilities is something that will always require nursing support and plenty of spare sets of incontinence pads, but for normal healthy and mentally fit people these continual breaks for personal hygiene and to put money into the pockets of service station owners are just not an acceptable way to travel.

And I really don't think you can complain about the toxicity of the fossil fuels used when your electric abomination contains a fuel system which is so dangerous it is a criminal offence to transport it by air in most jurisdictions.

Honestly, Cazalett - your rambling circular arguments are beginning to make Landroger sound rational...

PDR

Boxkite Montgolfier
14th Jul 2016, 15:05
In order to assist the debate--https://youtube.com/embed/arQ8_PW-RiA?rel=0&iv_load_policy-3

Geordie_Expat
14th Jul 2016, 15:06
Caz, you really are getting silly now. You make the odd good point then make a mockery of it all with daft posts.

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 15:09
Nice, PDR1.

Do go on.

Tell us more about your own experience of electric cars.

Go on. You know you want to.

er340790
14th Jul 2016, 15:12
Frankly, I'm astonished that no politician or JetBlaster has yet come up with the obvious: a car that is powered by PURE BULLSH1T!!! :E

Quick! To the Patent Office!

PDR1
14th Jul 2016, 15:13
Well my main memory of them was being picked up from the airport in a Tesla, which then ran out of go-juice on the M26 leaving me stranded for a stupid amount of time until the silly electric toy could be rescued on the back of a proper diesel truck. But I believe I have already mentioned that.

PDR

Cazalet33
14th Jul 2016, 22:20
I just need to stop for a couple of minutes and pour some liquid into the store.

ran out of go-juice on the M26 leaving me stranded for a stupid amount of time

Couldn't possibly happen in an oil-burner, could it?

PDR1
14th Jul 2016, 22:29
According to the proud owner-operator of this Tesla there was no prior warning of this failure - apparently it had something to do with wanting the heater on. In my oil-burner there's a gauge that gives me plenty of warning and any number of places where I can replenish the fuel very quickly, but even if we assume a gauging fault if it happened with an oil burner, a small can of fuel would have fixed the problem and we'd have been on our way. But the electric toy must be physically removed to a special location where it can be coupled up to a proper energy source (which is probably provided by a fossil-fuelled generator) for an hour or more before it can become an alleged means of transportation again.

I appreciate that you probably wouldn't have noticed the delay because of your inability to go more than a few minutes without stopping to urinate, getting a fix for your clinical addiction to coffee, not to mention this strange psychological condition that prevents you from sitting in a seat for more than a few seconds without wanting to leap out of it. But for normal people these delays are unacceptable.

PDR

Rwy in Sight
15th Jul 2016, 06:23
PDR1, one of the advice I have seen for safer motoring involves stops every two hours of driving or so. So Cazalet33 drive plan sounds rational and in accordance with that advice.

PDR1
15th Jul 2016, 07:07
But the advice doesn't require you to stop for 40-60 minutes in every two hours while your toy recharges. The need to do this is one of the DOWNSIDES of battery cars; it's not a beneficial FEATURE.

Unfortunately Caz has been radicalised by the jihadist extremists of the Electric religion, and brainwashed into thinking all things electric are to be worshipped. The man has lost his capacity for rational thought, which is very sad.

PDR

Cazalet33
15th Jul 2016, 11:14
the advice doesn't require you to stop for 40-60 minutes in every two hours while your toy recharges.


You do not have to make anything like such lengthy stops in a Tesla.

In post#53 I list the stops made on a 525 mile journey which drew the battery down from just under 90% to a little over 20%. Two of the stops were for ten minutes. Lunch break was 30 minutes. That is not a lot of rest time in an eight hour journey. A lorry driver would have been compelled by law to take much longer breaks that that on such a long journey.

When driving in Germany I found that optimum speed in terms of recharge break time ratio was 100mph. Much slower than that: you stretch out the journey time too much. Going flat out (I found that the speed limiter kicked in at 156mph per GPS) the energy usage per mile increases significantly and the time gained by going so fast is lost in recharge time. The sweet spot is 100mph (160kph).

Of course in the UK we can't do much more than about 78mph over a long distance without those damned yellow vultures triggering an unwanted letter from the speed tax collectors. I have a clean licence and I intend to keep it that way.

VP959
17th Jul 2016, 15:25
I've heard endless arguments about range from the EV-haters, yet realistically, what proportion of the population drives more than a couple of hundred miles every day?

200 miles a day is something a good EV can easily do with only overnight charging, so where's the problem?

I'll admit to being part-way there with a PHEV, and do a 16 mile each way daily commute. It's a hybrid, so it can do 500 odd miles on a tankful with no charge if I have to, but realistically I go for months on end without putting fuel in it. When I do have to run in petrol mode it's frankly grim compared to the smooth, effortless experience that is electric power.

At this time of the year charging at both ends of my commute is almost always free, thanks to a modest 6 kW PV array at home and free charging the other end (but even if I had to pay it would only be around 30 or 40p worth of electricity, if that).

I do long journeys (over 200 miles in a day) maybe half a dozen times a year, if that. I did look at getting a Leaf, as they were offering a free petrol car rental for two weeks a year if you needed a car to go on holiday, but for me the Leaf didn't have enough space inside for the long, but light, loads I carry pretty often.

If the price was a bit more within my range, I'd have a Tesla like a shot. It would easily meet all my motoring needs, including our holidays up to the Scottish Highlands from the South of the UK, with no change to our current driving pattern. We both hate sitting in the car for 8 or 10 hours, so rarely do more than 200 miles in a day, anyway - after all, we're on holiday, so enjoying the journey and the places we choose to stop overnight for a break is what it's all about.

Now, if I was a company rep, driving 300 to 400 miles a day, every day, then I'd argue that an EV just isn't the right car, yet. For most people who do the same sort of commute as I do, with a similar sort of holiday driving pattern, then all the daft arguments about range just don't apply.

Cazalet33
17th Jul 2016, 16:04
A near neighbour of mine has a Mitsubishi Outlander pluggable hybrid. It's an impressive piece of kit. I let him plug it in to the outdoor socket beside my main garage any time he wants. His daily commute is only about eight miles, so he gets nearly all his driving for free. He gets about 30 miles on a single charge.

I entirely concur with those who point out that a travelling salesman doing 300 or 400 miles a day cannot use an EV. There are limits to any technology.

For most people, especially on our small island, a typical car trip is about 25 miles per sector. Say three or four sectors per day. In a Tesla you wouldn't even need to recharge at the end of the day, though you would do so as a matter of prudence.

Li-Ion batteries don't like the top and bottom 10% of capacity being used too much, so one very rarely charges to the max. Maximum range really isn't a factor in ordinary day to day operation of an EV.

terrain safe
17th Jul 2016, 16:23
Interesting reading in this thread. I would like a Tesla but I can't afford one ATM. Just one question though, my Skoda Superb 2 litre diesel is used for work trips and general dad taxi stuff so about 1500 miles per month. However, it is also used for towing our family caravan. Is there any battery only vehicle that can do this? As an example, we have been to Cornwall, the Gower peninsula and are off to Southern Scotland next week, all trips of 300 miles or more. MPG in the Skoda is about 53 overall, but when towing drops to about 32. Could any battery powered car in the foreseeable future do this? Not being difficult but trying to see if there is any way that this technology can meet my needs.

VP959
17th Jul 2016, 17:26
The problem you run into with towing isn't the capability of an electric tow vehicle (they have stump-pulling torque, so tow things exceptionally well), it's with EU Type Approval.

You can do as I've done in the past and fit a US "receiver hitch", legal in the US where they don't have such restrictive rules, and plug in either a bike rack or a tow ball adapter as required.

Insurance is an issue, but I accept that when my light boat trailer is on the back then I only have third party cover (and yes, the insurance company does know about the fitted receiver hitch). I lose comprehensive cover simply because the receiver hitch only has US approval, not EU approval. If the bike rack is fitted to the hitch then I still have comprehensive cover.

I think the real issue is that the UK (right hand drive, EU Type Approved) is a small market, and for low volume cars the manufacturers just can't justify the cost of a separate approval with all the associated testing.

G-CPTN
17th Jul 2016, 17:40
In 'support' of the above p*st, Ford chose not to allocate any towing capacity to their Ka model (http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Ka) - thus it is illegal to fit any type of towbar.

Cazalet33
17th Jul 2016, 18:06
it is also used for towing our family caravan. Is there any battery only vehicle that can do this?

Yes. The Tesla Model X can have a towbar fitted and legally can pull a 2.3 tonne trailer, though physically it can probably pull your house as well. 762hp and incredible torque at any speed. 4WD as standard and a lot of pax capacity in an SUV-style fuselage.

The Model S is the same basic chassis and power, but does not have a towing capability.

Most of the Supercharger stations are ill-fitted for trailered vehicles though. You need to reverse the arse of the vehicle into a perpendicular parking bay to get the receptacle to the nozzle. Not practical with a trailer.

VP959
17th Jul 2016, 18:19
In 'support' of the above p*st, Ford chose not to allocate any towing capacity to their Ka model (http://www.ford.co.uk/Cars/Ka) - thus it is illegal to fit any type of towbar.
Interestingly it's not actually "illegal" to fit a towbar to a vehicle that is not Type Approved in the UK to have one fitted, although it may possibly be "unlawful". As long as the towbar carries an accepted approval (and US approved towbars are OK, I've been advised, as long as they have a proper rating plate for the vehicle make and model) then the offence is one of being in breach of EU Type Approval regulations, and the whole thing gets very unclear.

Certainly the police couldn't advise, and told me that as long as an officer could see the rating plate on the towbar and that it carried a recognised approval then it was extremely unlikely that any action would be taken, as they weren't at all sure what offence, if any, might have been committed!

Insurance is the key problem, as insurers simply won't provide anything more than the third party cover that they have a legal obligation to provide. I was advised that, in the event of an accident, then the insurer would have to show that the fitted towbar was a causal or contributory factor if they wanted to try and come after me for recompense against a third party payout (as they can). Clearly you lose comprehensive cover, although in my case my insurer was happy to include the bike rack attachment that fits to the same receiver hitch as the tow ball adapter; I just gave them the hitch details and rack details and they included them on the policy for no additional premium.

In my case I only ever tow a small boat a short distance, and happily accept that the risk is low and acceptable to me. Others may feel differently, and I'd not be happy towing a caravan the length of the country with only third party cover.

Cazalet33
17th Jul 2016, 18:34
I'm not going to buy a Model X, for several reasons, but next time I'm in for a service I'll ask if there is an EU/UK/insurance complication with the towbar on the Model X.

Once they start shipping those things to the UK, I may just ask a Model X owner at a Supercharger station what the gen is.

G-CPTN
17th Jul 2016, 18:36
The Ford Ka chassis plate has no weight allowance over the solo vehicle, and although the basis chassis construction is similar to the Fiesta, Ford will not designate fixing points for a towbar.

Having said that, there is at least one website (http://www.uktow.com/towing%20capacity.asp?make=Ford&model1=Ka) that quotes weights.

VP959
17th Jul 2016, 20:18
My car is the same, but actually has the threaded attachments to accept the towbar/receiver hitch on the UK model, exactly the same as on the US version, and even has the wiring loom connection, so fitting the bus wiring adapter needed make the trailer lights work is literally a "plug and play" job!

Cazalet33
18th Jul 2016, 19:15
I occasionally underestimate how much the modern car battery technology can be upscaled.

I recently learned of a car ferry which runs purely on Li-Ion batteries. It's not a tiddler: 120 cars and over 600 passengers.

She plies a 20 minute route on a major fjord in Norway. She has a ten minute recharge at each end of her 3nm single route run while the vessel discharges her cargo load and pax.

A MegaWattHour capacity seems huge, but she can re-charge at a rate of 1,200 KiloWatts and 1,290Amps. Pretty amazing when you think that the individual cells are probably about the size of your thumb.

A limitation on the recharge rate is due to the capacity of the local spurs of the national grid in those remote rural areas. They can't quite power the charger in real-time, so they charge an auxiliary battery during the ferry's half-hour absence from that end of the route and then avalanche power into the ship in the brief ten minutes turnaround. It's a mega-scale version of I'd like to do with my Tesla, if only the buggers would sell me an external 90kWh battery pack and my own private Supercharger at a sensible price.

As Norway is almost entirely powered by hydro it seems appropriate that a powerful ferry is powered by water.

Cazalet33
19th Jul 2016, 20:55
A near neighbour of mine has a Mitsubishi Outlander pluggable hybrid. It's an impressive piece of kit.


Sadly, a Tesla Model S has today clobbered one of those things.

The Outlander won, outright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vU3JDg0YYLc

G-CPTN
19th Jul 2016, 21:40
I thought that Teslas had 'no impact' sensors?

Are you admitting that they are fallible?

Cazalet33
19th Jul 2016, 22:29
Your thought is fallible.

What was your question?

G-CPTN
19th Jul 2016, 22:33
Your thought is fallible.

What was your question?
It was my belief that Teslas are fitted with proximity sensors that are used in 'autopilot' mode to avoid contact with other vehicles (and fixed objects such as barriers and highway furniture).

My question is, therefore, what do these sensors 'do' - if, in fact, there are such sensors?

Cazalet33
19th Jul 2016, 22:37
They assist the driver in what we call situational awareness.

A bit like a combination of TCAS and GPWS.

They neither displace nor replace the pilot.

Edited to add: They don't even say "and I'm here to help you".

G-CPTN
19th Jul 2016, 22:52
Thank-you.

Many years ago (at least 50) I did the same as the Norwegian guy - looked the wrong way and drove into the vehicle in front at a junction when he didn't go when expected.
There was no damage to either vehicle, but I remember it as one occasion when I 'erred'.

Cazalet33
19th Jul 2016, 22:54
I should perhaps further add that the Noggie guy in the above movie doesn't have autopilot on his car.

The Noggie behind the one in front, I mean.

Oh Gawd, it gets so complicated when you have to explain such simple stuff to so many people!