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View Full Version : Boeing 737-800 V 727-200 Adv. Transcontinental


Tim Hamilton
10th Jul 2016, 13:54
It seems that everytime I fly from East Coast to West Coast these days the flight time is getting Longer not shorter.

Was the Boeing 727-200 Advanced faster than the Boeing 737-800
or am I just getting older and impatient.

It feels like its about 35 minutes slower.

I always felt the 727-200 ADV was a Rocketship but I believe it was
harder to fly well - than the 737-800

Your input welcomes.

Peter47
10th Jul 2016, 14:26
Would the 727 Adv have had the range? Have they ever been timetabled for non stop transcon routes? I can't remember any from my misspent youth looking at ABC timetables.

The 738 is certainly around 40 knots slower than 747, Tristar & DC10s that used to fly the routes but those days are long gone (sadly). Times are now slower owing to smaller aircraft, traffic congestion & schedule padding. SH European flights to/from Heathrow are timetabled to take longer now than 737s took 20 years ago (you would expect them to be slower than "hotrod" Tridents and CV990s).

Tim Hamilton
10th Jul 2016, 19:44
Yes the Boeing 727-200 were scheduled for Transcontinental trip constantly in late 70's and throughout the 80's. From memory SYD - PER if flight has strong headwinds or alternative requirements use to go into Meekatharra and maybe Kalgoorlie in a squeeze when runway there was a lot smaller.

Ansett in about 87/88 bought 3 or 4 Long-Range versions, Boeing 727-200 LR's for Long Range ANA/B/C and F I recall. Think they had a large influence on Boeing to fit more fuel tanks to 727-200.

Tim Hamilton
10th Jul 2016, 19:52
Ok so the Boeing 727-200 was about 22 mins faster Sydney-Perth.

Good thanks.

Rick777
10th Jul 2016, 20:25
The speeds sound right, but you must have had a lot bigger fuel tanks than the 727 I flew. We were hard pressed to make it Denver to Orlando with a full load of pax.

Booglebox
10th Jul 2016, 20:33
I flew across the US in a 737-900 the other day, bumping around at 32000ft, with no window (missing in my row). A 757 would have done it smoothly FL450 in less time, with a window.
Please, Boeing, make a 757 replacement !!

ACMS
11th Jul 2016, 00:14
Ansett's first LR 727 arrived MEL on June 11 1981, VH-ANA

Typical cruise for the 72 was .80 after the fuel crisis, before it was .82, funny though that the old girl actually did better at .82 and was more speed stable.

VH-ANA ANB ANE ANF. 4 in all.

stilton
11th Jul 2016, 04:06
The 757 is a far better performing aircraft than the 737 and I wish they would build
a real replacement as well.


However, max certificated altitude is FL420, 431 for the 767.

Tim Hamilton
11th Jul 2016, 07:41
Found some more info on this -

The 727—200 LR, was a graceful and stunningly quick airliner. It did the routes between the eastern capitals and Perth in as much as an hour less time than today’s airliners, in part through a faster airframe, including 35 degree swept back wings. Boeing 727s flew the Sydney-Melbourne route some 20 minutes faster than today

The first Boeing -727 commercial flights occurred on November 2 1964 between Sydney and Melbourne, when VH-RME made the journey in a record 47 minutes 55 seconds. A lot faster than today.
The LRs were registered VH-ANA, B / E/ F

The first 727-277LR arrived on June 11, 1981 wearing Ansett's new Southern Cross livery which featured an all white fuselage and a dark blue tail emblem with a stylised Southern Cross emblem. This was the new face of an Ansett that was without its founder Reg Ansett for the first time.

Tim Hamilton
11th Jul 2016, 07:49
Yes thats correct ACMS
I flew MEL-BNE on the last Boeing 727 flight into BNE
VH-ANB.
Was a Reflective/Sad Occasion.

Tim Hamilton
11th Jul 2016, 07:52
Can anyone tell me was the 727-LR
Just made for Ansett's requirements or to other Boeing customers as well ?
Feel it may of just been just Ansett.

ACMS
11th Jul 2016, 08:44
Others as well, not just Ansett.

Also the reason for the faster SYD MEL vv block times isn't only down to the slightly faster cruise speed, the traffic amount and ATC are the big factors today.

DaveReidUK
11th Jul 2016, 09:11
Can anyone tell me was the 727-LR
Just made for Ansett's requirements or to other Boeing customers as well ?
Feel it may of just been just Ansett.

The three extra cargo hold tanks were available as an option to any 727-200 Advanced customer.

maggot738
11th Jul 2016, 10:06
The 738 normal cruise for us was M.78 to .79. Since the fuel crisis, at least in my crowd, our cost index was reduced from 35 to 6 which gives roughly M.75 in a good tailwind to M.77 in a reasonable headwind. A bit slower than the old M.79 cruise and a quite a bit slower than the 727. Hope this helps.

Tim Hamilton
11th Jul 2016, 12:37
Sure does thanks . . Just seems many times when I travel these days it take a long time to get anywhere Mel - Sydney on 727-100 in 1964. was faster
Then 48 minutes now 52 years later about 90 minutes. Almost double the time. Where are we going wrong ? Beyond traffic congestion / ATC requirements.

Thanks Dave re optional fuel tank on 727- 200 Advances.

Don't think TAA/Australian had the LR's so how did they operationally SYD/PER ?

Tim Hamilton
11th Jul 2016, 12:42
Still believe aesthetically, the Boeing 727-200 in Ansett starstream livery is the best Aircraft/Livery I have ever seen.
So simplistic. Less is more.

stilton
11th Jul 2016, 19:21
The 727 was and is the best looking, best handling narrowbody ever made

misd-agin
12th Jul 2016, 05:33
737-800 econ cruise is typically .77-.78
727 econ was .80

That's 1.5-2.25 minutes faster per hour of cruise.

727's struggled on five hour flights. Westbound transcons in the US take six hours.

757's at FL 450? Ah, sure.

LeadSled
12th Jul 2016, 08:22
Folks,
Aaaaah!!!! for the Good Old Days.

In the early days of the B747, transcontinental cruise speeds for a B747-238 ( Qantas) M0.88. Climb was 360 IAS above 10,000, descent was 0.88/360.
Where there was no speed limit below 10,000, descent was 0.88/360 to 3,000 agl.

As "luck" would have it, doing an Olympic charter for GE in 2000,( in a GE engined B744) I was very late out of KJFK for KLAX, Ops. Control said: "Get to LA as fast as you can". What an open invitation, so back to 360 and 0.88+ at FL260/280 ---- what a wonderful TAS, not often seen since the first "oil price shock" -- !!! From the controller comments, they hadn't seen an airline aircraft proceeding at that rate of knots for a long while, and in several cases never.

Even the CV990 would have had trouble keeping up.

Descent planning was a no-brainer --- 100, period ---- from 260/270, at those rates of descent wind components hardly make any difference for the very brief period from cruise to 10,000.

Old Qantas hands will recall the first "descent slide rule", developed by a QF management pilot, we will call him Neal.

It gave rise to the following limerick:

There was a young lad called Neal,
They said he was some kind of a wheel,
He invented a computer, to make descents cuter,
Hundred miles, power off,
Big F-----ing deal.Tootle pip!!

zlin77
12th Jul 2016, 09:29
As far as I know, Ansett was the only operator of the 727LR, their four aircraft were the last passenger versions built before Boeing completed an order for 50 727 Freighters for FEDEX and ended 727 production....had some time in the 727 and normally flew at .82..enjoyed the occasional descent at
350 KIAS to 20 miles, in Australia the 250 below 10,000 was only introduced in the early 90s and many controllers were quite happy to issue a waiver if requested, I believe the MEL-SYD record was set many, many years ago, departure off RWY34 MEL, arriving RWY07 SYD, this was well before they introduced all the fancy STARs with lots of extra track miles, impossible to equal it these days.

stilton
14th Jul 2016, 03:38
Captains retirement flight in a 727-200 we cruised at .91 Mach, not a problem, bit loud and thirsty but solid as a rock.


.86-.88 on a regular basis if we were running behind and a VMO of 380 knots at the lighter ZFW, lots of fun.

Tim Hamilton
14th Jul 2016, 11:02
zlin77

November 1964 Boeing-727 did MEL/SYD in 47 minutes 55 seconds.

July 08, 1959 a Lockheed Electra did it in 54 minutes

Not sure if MEL/SYD record here has ever been beaten.

Interesting re last productions models.

Tim Hamilton
14th Jul 2016, 11:08
Limping along at ATC mandated speeds these days must drive you guys/girl crazy.
ATC really have to undergo a re make.

Know when I take off from SYD for BNE to the south, (as a passenger) am vectored almost to Auckland before turning left towards Brisbane. Wast of time fuel and money = crazy and very inefficient use of resources. Glad I flew when I did.

LeadSled
15th Jul 2016, 02:21
Folks,
Best I managed (behind schedule) YSSY-YMML in a B744 was 52 minutes wheels off to wheels on, RW16 Sydney, RW27 in Melbourne.

Back in B707 days, scheduled air time was 52 minutes south, 51 minutes north.

Best behind schedule turnaround I managed (YMML and B767) was 20 minutes brakes on to brakes off, 30 minutes wheels on to wheels off. ---- these days that would probably call for a written complaint from ground staff about some OH&S furphy --- but back to B707 days, 30 minutes was the standard behind schedule turnaround time, and that included cleaning and catering.

Tootle pip!!

Snakecharma
8th Aug 2016, 06:41
MEL - SYD in a 737-800 a few weeks ago was 53 minutes flight time (wasn't me driving but was told about it). Would the 47 minutes be flight time or block time? If it was block time it was mighty impressive!

Had 170 kts on the tail this morning, made for an early arrival...

Wizofoz
8th Aug 2016, 06:46
Now compare the fuel burns v passenger capacities........