Breaking into Biz Jet Flying

[FoxtrotGolf]

Dear PPRuNe-ers,

I am currently part way through an integrated ATPL course. As I'm sure many of you know, the drive of such courses tends to be towards an eventual career in the airlines. I have recently become much more aware of the possibility of corporate aviation and was hoping for some information/advice. I am just coming to the end of the ground school phase so still have some time to go before starting a job (wherever that may be) but would like to be as clued up to my different options as possible.

So here goes with some questions:

I have spoken to a few people who have suggested corporate jobs are much more word-of-mouth and being in the right place at the right time. Is there anything I can do while training to start talking to companies? (Even just to get my name heard).

How do type ratings tend to work for biz jets?

How does pay work? Are most people contracted with a charter company or getting paid per flight?

Answers to these questions and any other info that springs to mind would be gratefully received.

I apologise if perhaps this should be in one of the Wannabes forums but threads there seem to get crowded easily and I was hoping for word 'from the horses mouth' as it were.

Many thanks,

FoxtrotGolf

[tomuchwork]

Hi FG,

I have seen both "worlds", airline, grew up with them, got my command with them(thanks god), decide to have a look at the other side and have been in biz aviation for 9 years as well(3 different companies, one claiming to be the so called market leader of the pack, whatever that means).

Your questions:

- corporate is JUST about the word of mouth. If you cannot network you are dead meat in this business, one of the things I hated about it. Not good pilots get the best jobs, the pilots with the best connections get the jobs. Some might deny that, I assume that are the guys with the right connections.

- most biz operators fancy already TR pilots. Simply because they do not have the capacity and organisation to train a pilot, do his linetraing and release him. Just my last company could do that, but we are talking of 50 aircraft plus here. So no big deal. Small outfits prefer to have a typed guy OR he is the son of the boss ^^.

- pay varies a lot. Have seen by myself owner jobs on 1 aircraft ops and very good pay (but there was always a "hook") and then you fly with the big outfits and you get paid "meh". Especially if you consider what extra jobs a corporate pilot has to do(training on off days, do a lot of different Visa applications on your off days, run at least 3 different passports to house all that visas, loading, unloading aircraft, picking up pax, organize everything around the aircraft, be the shopping mate of the FA, be the donkey of the FA if you have to carry that bloody Evian back to the hotel on your only off day in a week, clean the aircraft together with the FA, download Nav Data for that FMS, upload everything in the FMS(x2), download FDM, send it, do bloody hand over and take over checklists on every rotation, be responsible for everything, even if the marshaller in F*****g Nigeria is guiding you in the wall of the hangar, it is always YOU who is responsible. I could go on for much longer, but I think you got my draft) compared to an airline jockey. Absolutely not worth the stress, my opinion(and experience).
Normally you get paid monthly, fixed salary. Plus normally paid per diem for every day of work which is usually very good with owner jobs(80-90 Euros a day) and very bad paid with big jets operators where you end up with 30-40 Euros per day.

After 20 years of airline and 9 years of business aviation I am very glad to be back in airline business. I decided that I have to leave corporate before I am to old to get an airline job again.
The good side of corporate is that you operate in many different airfields(which might be not an advantage if you are unexperienced because many of them are VERY demanding and even sometimes dangerous.), and you might end up with nice collegues. At least that was the case in my worst paid corporate job as it was already a bit airline style organzied. If you end up in an "owner outfit" the pay might be generous, in 2 cases the pilots involved where bad, hated each other and bitched around each others back like young , inmature kids. I do not make it bigger as it was, it was simply horrible. Never have seen mature men being so stupid. From my observations this was not an isolated issue, many ownerjets are flown by guys like this. Steer clear.
If it has to be really(really?) corporate, then go for companies that own their jets and just rent them out(Netjets, Vista(brr), etc.). Much better to work for them and word of mouth is not necessary(ok, still need to be friend to someone to make a nice career there).

For the long run I can just suggest to go airline. Right, the flying is not that much fun anymore nowadays(but even the above mentioned operators in corporate use already FDR, so no fun there either, it is even worse as you have to file a safety report for simply EVERYTHING - try to go into Sion, avoiding the hospital on short final by flying direction mountains for a bit without triggering EGPWS - next report to be filed).

Last word of advice: Word of mouth just works if you have something to offer(working already in biz aviation, might be able to provide a future job, give good "word-of-mouth" by yourself - that's how networking runs and that's why it is so disgusting(imho).

Vista is hiring, even NTR, as many pilots are running away from there to return to the airlines(know a few guys that left this year). Maybe worth a shot. OR check airline Cadet offers, might be the much better option in the long run.

[I-AINC]

Don't do it.

[RAFAT]

I've worked in both airline and bizjet sectors and I echo most of what tomuchwork said and ALL of what I-AINC said! One thing that tomuchwork said in particular is very true in that it's often those with the best connections rather than the best abilities that get the best jobs, I've come across that on several occasions in the bizjet sector.

Which sector was it that left me over £20k out of pocket in unpaid salary from redundancy and going out of business? It certainly wasn't an airline!

[FoxtrotGolf]

Thanks for the replies.

tomuchwork - It's good to hear from someone who's worked extensively in both 'worlds'. Thank you for the detailed explanations, that's very helpful.

I-AINC - Any chance you could expand on your reply? Obviously everyone's entitled to their opinion but it would be useful to know why you suggest so strongly against.

RAFAT - Sorry that your time in the bizjet world was so bad. Thanks for relaying your experience though.

[x933]

One thing that a lot of people forget is that most (though not all) jets fly around 300hrs per year. If there's 3 crew on it then roughly 100hrs each per year. That puts your unfrozen ATPL 15 years away.

Obviously there are exceptions - Vista, GlobeAir, Blink et al - but don't expect to do more than 300-400hrs per year flying corporate.

[galaxy flyer]

Your math is off, 2 seats times 300 HR/year equals 600 seat/hours equals 200 hours per pilot per year. Still about right.

[JonDyer]

Don't do it.

Totally do it.

If you can find a way in then go for it. When I did my ATPLs almost no one in my class (and this was a modular class) knew that corporate aviation existed. I've spoken to many people since then who said the same.

I always wanted to be in corporate charter and I've never had any reason to regret taking that option over the airlines. Although it's true that this business contains some of the biggest tossers you will ever encounter - it also contains many of the finest. Cream rises to the top as well as scum.

Yes you will carry bags and help the FA with his shopping - so what? I carried Kylie's luggage once and she thought I was a baggage handler and asked me why I was travelling in the aircraft.

In our company we buy the milk, get the papers, drive the tug, top up the oils, file the flight plans and sell the charters. Sometimes we even fly the planes. We only employ people who love the business and we pay for their type-ratings.

It can be a tough employment market - but right now is the best time to try to get in as the airlines are hoovering up crew from corporates (at least in the UK). Networking skills are essential, tomuchwork and RAFAT are correct - but so are customer service skills and the two are not so different.

As for redundancy and being out of pocket - I know people who have had the fingers badly burned by airlines going bust before their TRs were issued. True, the big players are unlikely to do that to you, but you pay your money, you takes your choice.

[bringbackthe80s]

Foxtrotgolf once you get your frozen ATPL what you really need is training, a lot of flying and a lot more training.

Ideally you would want to build hours somehow, try various different propeller aircraft and different types of flying but then (excluding military flying) your best chances of building up knowledge, confidence and airmanship is at an airline with a good and well estabilished training department, experienced instructors, good facilities and a positive training culture. So that would be my advice to you.

When you have a few thousands hrs and possibly a command, then change to wathever job you fancy.

Good luck

[ksjc]

From the replies so far the biz jet climate sure sounds dismal? Well, for the OP I can say that you can also make a solid career in biz jet flying. I have been at it since 1989...now on job number 3 and only left the previous 2, reluctantly, to pursue further career advancement. For past 12 years with same private owner/GLEX with well above average pay, benefits, and most important, quality of life. I never went the airline route so can't compare.

My advice: start with the basics and get some good experience...King Air, CJ, etc, make friends not enemies, have good work ethic and you will move right along. Much of your future success has to do with your attitude...people will notice a good attitude...they notice the bad ones too....as you can see from some of the previous posts.

[Kelly Hopper]

You are in the States. Completely different to Euroland! Many years in airlines (awful) with many years in business aviation too flying everything from turboprops to long range planet swallowers! Hmmmmmm! Don't get too comfortable, that backstabber is right there waiting for his moment, and he will be french! Find a good employer (corporate, not charter) with a good aircraft and good crewmates and you have the best job in the world. I had it once. 28 years ago! Since then it's been an abomination! In and out of work, no pension, no benefits, not bad pay but not really worth the sacrifice and appalling employers that break every rule in the book and workmates you wouldn't want as your worst enemy! Think long and hard if you see this as a career move?

[I-AINC]

I'm almost agree with everything above my post. I have never complained about buying newspapers, ice cubes, coffee, catering, update jeppesens and so on...
At the beginning the bizjet world was my dream cause it is various (but if you fly for the same owner the destinations are less than 10 probably so airline is better).

I sent the first resume after 4 months in my first company, and I dreamt to join that company for more than 3/4 years...

Maybe the problem is sitted in the back and watches you all the time......

[I-AINC]

Another important point:

If, for some reasons, you loose your job with a King Air/Citation/Learjet/etc.. type rating, you are in the middle of a road, jobless! And this is even supported by what said before: networking.

If you have an A320/737 rating and you do your job PROPERLY you're gonna find another job with YOUR capacity, not because you know someone.

Job stability.

[noneya]

I-AINC......And start over with first day pay, lowest seniority every time you change airlines...no thanks

At least with the Gulfstream, Bombardier, King Air, whatever... generally you move latterly in terms of pay and position, at least in my 20 years of doing it that has always been the case!

I also flew airlines for a major carrier in the USA, upgraded to captain at the age of 29 on 757's, rode it for 7 years till 911 killed the industry..... stuck it out a few more years and after downsizing and pay cuts, I quit and came back to corporate and I love it, I will never try to go airlines again, I can't afford the pay cut!

my 2 cents

[what next]

If you have an A320/737 rating and you do your job PROPERLY you're gonna find another job with YOUR capacity, not because you know someone.

Is that really so? I would say, only if you are young enough (< 50 or so) or alternatively flexible enough to accept any kind of crappy contract/payment and ready to work in parts of the world where no one else wants to go.

[His dudeness]

I have spoken to a few people who have suggested corporate jobs are much more word-of-mouth and being in the right place at the right time.

Thats mostly true for at least corporate flight departments, at least the small ones. Why ? Sometimes I spent more time with my colleague than with my wife - if you know the person to join a little, the chances of getting an unbearable addition to the crew is simply smaller. I fly with the same guy for 9 years now and across the ramp there is another 2 man show, they are working together even longer.
Mind you, even the best friend wouldn´t last if his abilities would lack, contrary to what some said.

[Jackdaw]

Kelly Hopper said Don't get too comfortable, that backstabber is right there waiting for his moment, and he will be french!
Oh so true - and they are always first class tossers. But not all French - some are great guys. But look around in the Moscow Marriot Club Lounges and the back stabbing amongst the French is far worse than Gove and Boris. (I voted Brexit by the way, but have a great French colleague (and some dreadful ones who should never be pilots).

[I-AINC]

noneya you're right, it's not fair to start again from the bottom of the seniority list.

IMHO there are positive and negative sides in both world, unfortunately my biz jet experience has been really bad.

Congratulations for your command on the 757 at 29yo. I would LOVE to do the same...

[EC DKN]

Sorry but I don't understand why did you go integrated if you wanted to fly corporate... The private jet pilots who are instructors as well mainly work for Modular schools such as AFT Exeter... I don't see the point spending the double if it was your path.

Lack of research at the beginning probably.

[FoxtrotGolf]

EC DKN - Actually, if you read my post, I don't necessarily want to fly corporate. Without giving you my life story, I had to do (and did) a huge amount of research before starting my training. That led me to believe that airline flying was what I wanted to do. We had a visiting instructor recently who is a biz jet pilot and speaking to him brought my attention back to corporate aviation (something I had previously discounted). I count myself as extremely lucky to be in the position of being able to go integrated and I will, most likely, get my first job in an airline. However, I think it is always worth doing further research and keeping your ideas and options open.

[FoxtrotGolf]

Hi All,

Thanks for the info. it's very useful to have feedback and suggestions from people with experience from both 'worlds' and with views supporting both.

A couple more questions, if I may.

Firstly could I reiterate one of my original questions. Is it worth trying to get your name heard while you are still training? As highlighted by EC DKN I am an integrated student so I have rather less flexibility to travel around and introduce myself face to face.

Is there a 'normal' progression in the corporate world? Within the airlines there is smaller to larger aircraft and short to long haul. (Before anyone jumps down my throat, I know this is not a hard and fast progression). Does it work in a similar way for corporate? Or does the variety of flights mean everything is a bit more mixed up?

FoxtrotGolf

[what next]

Is it worth trying to get your name heard while you are still training?

Certainly! But more important: Keep in contact with that instructor of yours who flies bizjets. Ask around, if other instructors or former students are working in that sector and get in contact with them. This will help a lot more than showing your face to some executives who will forget about you the moment you leave their office.

Is there a 'normal' progression in the corporate world?

Yes, if you are really after that. But if I look around, I see quite a few bizjet and turboprop pilots, especially in the corporate world, who are totally happy with what they have. People who have been flying KingAirs or Citation Jets for the same employer since 30 years and will continue to do so until they retire. If you are flying for an employer with a solid financial background (who has nothing to do with aviation and earns his money in a completely different field!) you will have the best job security of all, even better than with the airlines. They all go bust some day, without exception. You will not be unemployed for a single day during your whole career. You can build your house, pay your mortgage, raise kids and have a social life. Your airplane may not be the largest and prettiest on the apron, your pay may be average only, your car may be a couple of years older than that of those A380 pilots, but at least it gets used every day and does not collect dust in the car park for a whole month...

[SoFarFromHome]

Hi,

I started on TP's, got a command and then went airline as FO, flown a few things and got some good TR's along the way.

I am now on a large business jet and have zero plans to go back to the airlines.

Superb variety, lots of down time both at home and down route, excellent pay in excess of what I was on in the airlines and for me at least, the most important part is I really enjoy it. I wanted to stop flying at my last airline, same thing every day, for the next 30 years, no way, soul destroying and it nearly did :ugh:

I can second some of the percieved negatives to this type of flying and I sometimes would like to shut it down and just go home, especially after a very long day, but thats all forgot once Im checked in at the hotel with a week or longer to explore a new place!

I know I am fortunate, not all of my colleagues have a similar experience, but then I would never have left my last position had it not been this way.

The advice I would give is much as above, if you can, join a good airline, get the hours up with a good background in SOP and operations, then come and enjoy some really great flying, research and network, but most importantly enjoy every step of the way, not many a day goes by when I don't remember with a smile all the great times and friends made along the way. The odd :mad: too.

Best of luck what ever you decide, thats always good to have!

Regards,

SFFH

[SeventhHeaven]

Thank you all for your honest assessment of the corporate industry. I am open to all forms of flying and you've given me new insight into a branch of flying I've always considered as hard to enter and closed off.

I hope to one day have a chance to fly a small jet as well (got a soft spot for the lear 45!). A shame my 260TT and 2 years out of training aren't really winning me any favours with HR departments :)

[JonDyer]

For FOs on a multi-crew Super-light, we look for 4-500hrs of post-graduate flying. We like instructors; instructors with a decent block of twin time, even more so. Turbine time is a plus.

Most 250hr CVs look alike - what will set you apart is the information that someone somewhere trusted you with some responsibility to get a job done and fly something more expensive and more complicated than a PA28.

It's a tricky route and luck plays a part in many job opportunities. We have never advertised a position, we just go to the pile of CVs from the last 3-4 months and work with those.

Be lucky, as an ex-colleague of mine used to say.

[I-AINC]

SeventhHeaven

I have 1800h on the Learjet 45, and I started on that one... So good luck :-)

[SeventhHeaven]

@JonDyer

Thanks for your advice! It's great to get some feedback from someone on the inside, rather than beating my head against the wall trying to figure it out for myself!

I have honestly nothing against an FI rating or being an instructor. Unfortunately there is an over-abundance of FI(R) in my country so I'm not sure if it's worth the initial outlay. Moving abroad for a job that earns ~10k per year, at age 29, with a young daughter is probably not going to make the wife happy :D

If I may ask, would simply flying more and getting the hours going be worthwhile? Imagine if I had 350 or 400 TT instead of just 250, but still no actual work experience, would that make any difference?

@I-AINC

Great to know there are still opportunities out there!

This thread is going to make me jelly :) people getting 757 command at 29, people starting on light or medium jets straight out of training, etc!

[what next]

If I may ask, would simply flying more and getting the hours going worthwhile?

No. Privately flown single-engine piston hours don't count as work experience for most employers. It will be different if you spend that time instructing or doing aerial work (photo flights, paradropping or similar).

...people starting on light or medium jets straight out of training,

The three FOs I currently fly with on light jets were all hired directly out of training, two of them as recently as last year. All three were age 30 or above when they were hired and all three had a previous working life in a completely different field. Like myself. I started flying early, but made it my profession long after I was 30 years old and started on jets well above age 40. Welcome to the world of business aviation!

[westernswamp]

Greetings Gentlemen, hoping someone can help shed a bit of light...
Would Helicopter experience count for anything if trying to break in to the field?
(6000h+ ME/SE turbine, Multi and single pilot)
Thanks!

[galaxy flyer]

Great experience, IF the department has a helicopter. :p. Truthfully, limited applicability, but much depends on connections, type of experience, currency in fixed wing.

GF

[noneya]

westernswamp,

If you have a FAA ticket, the NY area has lots of flight departments that need dual rated pilots. They seem to hire helicopter pilots and then put them as an SIC on the jets till they are up to speed.

It is easier to get a helicopter pilot trained as a Fixed Wing SIC, than to train a Fixed Wing guy as a helicopter pilot, at least in a timely manner.

FYI...I am dual rated, but it really has only helped me with one job over the years.
J