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Loose rivets
8th Jul 2016, 12:32
Sorry to put planes on JB, but I'm perplexed.

Scroll down a bit and three behind the Britannia. I don't know what it is.


It's a plane, Brian, will not help.

Farnborough: A key role in Britain's aerospace industry - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36714374)

rugmuncher
8th Jul 2016, 12:52
Tudor VIII ?

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%201533.html

treadigraph
8th Jul 2016, 12:58
If you mean the fifth pic down, the Britannia is a Hermes I think, the aircraft two behind looks like the Nene powered Avro Tudor 8. Aircraft in between must be an Ambassador. :)

uffington sb
8th Jul 2016, 13:01
Isn't that Brit a Handley Page Hermes???

You beat me to it Treads

Sir Niall Dementia
8th Jul 2016, 13:03
Airspeed Ambassador.

Used by BEA for a number of years. This was the type that had a flap failure on short finals to LHR, the crew couldn't contain the asymetric effect and went clean through Terminal One while it was under construction.

It was also the type involved in the Munich disaster which killed a lot of the Manchester United team.

B###er! I've just revealed my spotter credentials!!

But I do remember flying to Jersey on a BKS Charter Ambassador in the 1960's

SND

pineridge
8th Jul 2016, 13:16
Airspeed Ambassador.

Used by BEA for a number of years. This was the type that had a flap failure on short finals to LHR, the crew couldn't contain the asymetric effect and went clean through Terminal One while it was under construction.

It was also the type involved in the Munich disaster which killed a lot of the Manchester United team.

B###er! I've just revealed my spotter credentials!!

But I do remember flying to Jersey on a BKS Charter Ambassador in the 1960's

SND
Didn`t BEA call the Ambassador the Elizabethan? Airspeed is where the author Nevil Shute was employed as a designer.

Sir Niall Dementia
8th Jul 2016, 13:36
Pineridge;

You're right they did. I hand the spotter laurels to you!:D:D

SND

Jhieminga
8th Jul 2016, 14:06
Correct, Elizabethan class was the BEA name for the type. Nevil Shute Norway was one of the founders of Airspeed, he wasn't actually the designer. IIRC Hessell Tiltman did the designing for most of their pre-WWII types. The post-war types were after they had been taken over and Nevil Shute was by then just an author (a pretty good one though!) and no longer involved with building aeroplanes.

Allan Lupton
8th Jul 2016, 19:19
Bit serious for JB but Hessell Tiltman, a co-founder of Airspeed, had indeed left before the Ambassador was designed and the team was led by Arthur Hagg, formerly Chief Designer at de Havilland. Some would say there was a bit of similarity of appearance between the DH 91 Albatross and the AS 57 Ambassador. . .

seafire6b
8th Jul 2016, 20:10
This was the type that had a flap failure on short finals to LHR, the crew couldn't contain the asymmetric effect and went clean through Terminal One while it was under construction.


Two* videos showing the demise of Ambassador G-AMAD, causing the tragic loss of most souls aboard, 3rd July 1968.

bLZYR2d-WO4


WzPTg86r9aw

I happened to be driving to Terminal One airside less than 30 minutes afterwards. Seeing only the two Tridents first, I was initially puzzled how they'd both become so very badly damaged. I then met a colleague who pointed out the Ambassador wreckage and told me what had happened. A very sad day, and just four months after Whisky Echo.


*In fact, both appear to be the same film clip, but the 2nd (and slightly longer) one has been reverse-exposed!


P.S. - sorry for posting each video twice, and for the accompanying code-garbage - I'm unable to correct that!

Sir Niall Dementia
10th Jul 2016, 07:05
Two* videos showing the demise of Ambassador G-AMAD, causing the tragic loss of most souls aboard, 3rd July 1968.

bLZYR2d-WO4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLZYR2d-WO4)


WzPTg86r9aw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzPTg86r9aw)

I happened to be driving to Terminal One airside less than 30 minutes afterwards. Seeing only the two Tridents first, I was initially puzzled how they'd both become so very badly damaged. I then met a colleague who pointed out the Ambassador wreckage and told me what had happened. A very sad day, and just four months after Whisky Echo.


*In fact, both appear to be the same film clip, but the 2nd (and slightly longer) one has been reverse-exposed!


P.S. - sorry for posting each video twice, and for the accompanying code-garbage - I'm unable to correct that!

Rivets;

Apologies, I've just re-read your original post, and I've been describing the wrong aircraft.

I've never seen the third behind the Britannia before. But those are definitely Comet intakes. My grandfather was a test pilot at de Havilland. I'll go through his papers later and see if I can find any reference to it at all.

SND

Stanwell
10th Jul 2016, 07:28
Sir Niall,
Assuming we're all looking at the same picture, Treadigraph, I'm sure, got it right in his post #3.

The first aircraft is a Hermes.
The second is an Airspeed Ambassador
and .. the third is the Nene-engined Avro Tudor/Ashton (a one-off trials aircraft).

So, are we all looking at the same pic?

Stanwell
10th Jul 2016, 08:07
As a p.s. to the above post .. Sorry, rugmuncher, I didn't give you credit for being first in with the answer to LR's real question.
So, yes, Tudor 8, 9 or, more specifically, Ashton, answers are acceptable. Come up and collect your prizes.
For those who included Britannia and Comet in the lineup, well, we hope to see you here next week.

John Hill
10th Jul 2016, 08:19
Stanwell, yeabut the aircraft in the picture is sitting tail down so Tudor 8, not 9 or Ashton as they were tricycle type.

Stanwell
10th Jul 2016, 08:29
Ah, yes. Thank you John.
There was only the one Avro Tudor airframe used for that Nene conversion wasn't there?

Mike6567
10th Jul 2016, 09:07
http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x167/mike6567_photos/Tudor%208%20IMG_20160710_0003_zpsxwi6c4cc.jpg
This Tudor 8 VX195 first flew on 6 September 1948 piloted by Jimmy Orrell.
Flight trials were at Boscombe Down and Farnborough.
Farnborough Air Display in 1948 was 8 - 12 September.
Mike

Stanwell
10th Jul 2016, 09:32
One thing I'd wondered about the Tudor...
What was so wrong with the design that they really had to burden it with that grotesque vertical stabiliser?
I'm sure Roy Chadwick would not have been happy.

ORAC
10th Jul 2016, 09:58
Stanwell, see here.

Avro Tudor - Expand Your Mind (http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Avro%20Tudor)

...."Avro first proposed to build the Avro 687 (Avro XX), which was a Lincoln bomber with a new circular section pressurized fuselage and a large single fin and rudder in place of the predecessor's double ones.......... It was designed by Roy Chadwick who, due to wartime restrictions, could not design a completely new aircraft, but had to use existing parts, tools and jigs..........

The Tudor I suffered from a number of stability problems, which included longitudinal and directional instability. The problem was handed over to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at RAE Farnborough, where an extensive programme of testing was carried out, the test pilot being Eric Brown.[3] Following the RAE's recommendations, a larger tailplane was fitted, and the original finely curved fin and rudder were replaced by larger vertical surfaces."...........

Stanwell
10th Jul 2016, 10:05
Aha.
Thanks, ORAC.

p.s. I'd forgotten that Roy Chadwick actually lost his life in a Tudor.
.

Loose rivets
10th Jul 2016, 16:34
Sorry to be slow to read in but a rather urgent car search is under way.

I was aware of 'upgrading' certain aircraft with turbojets, but my memory of specifics is poor. Thanks for the input. One will catch up with the details soon.

Grotesque? Nowt so grotesque as the tail of the Spruce Goose. The rudder can't move a fraction of normal before reaching the elevators. I assume there were stops fitted! I suppose having so many engines made HH think there'd be no need for much of an angle.


A pal has made a compilation of 'Winkle' Brown. I'll get it soon and see if I can, after all these years, learn to put bits on 'The Tube'. He, my friend, did the filming of one of the TV programs about him and he told of how impressed he was by the man.

evansb
10th Jul 2016, 20:12
Interesting stuff, but why isn't this thread posted under 'Aviation History and Nostalgia' forum?

Tankertrashnav
11th Jul 2016, 10:09
I thought that, but as I rarely look on there I would probably have missed it, so as I have found it interesting I'm rather glad it was posted on JB.

Mike6567
11th Jul 2016, 11:50
Not sure how to make a link but it is already on 'Aviation History etc' forum under
Pic 5 of 22 on BBC app Farnborough item

BigEndBob
12th Jul 2016, 08:13
Film "Cone of silence" used this aircraft, or at least a model.
Good film for those aviation types.
Also seen listed as "Trouble in the sky".