Fake Log book Hours Blacklist

[Chocks Away]

After watching various "training mechanisms" of a few airlines struggle, at the supply of apparently "qualified aircrew" ... to meet increasing fleet staffing requirements, I feel it's is long overdue to speak out.

There are too many pilots around trying to gain Commands or F/o slots on bogus types they know nothing about, with fake hours!
Fact!

Gone are the days of logbooks being retained by the prospective company for factual checks prior to interview. Logbooks are not even checked at interview by simply "turning a page over" and checking Google for Aircraft Registration!
(TAKE NOTE HR!)

I am sick and tired of unqualified amateurs claiming quals and types they have no idea about, only to clog up the training mechanisms in stupidity and wasted limited sim times over their prospective employees lies.

Its time to name and shame those that lie and/or fail, as the ounce reputable, honest and highly held profession of Airline Pilot has now sunk into the realms of what bit of paper with fake quals you can get out of India/Thailand, instead of honest logbook hours & Reference Checks.

Handing over...

[morno]

And without defaming someone, I'm curious to know how you could prove such fake hours....

[WannaBeBiggles]

The individual you speak of didn't happen to claim to have flown a large chinese turboprop over in asia? Aussie bloke who used to be an instructor and used to look at teeth for a living prior to that?

[Duck Pilot]

Flight assessment should quickly identify any potential logbook falsifying. Due dillagence by the operator is also required by doing reference checks.

[Brakerider]

Flight assessment should quickly identify any potential logbook falsifying. Due dillagence by the operator is also required by doing reference checks.
I think many Chief Pilots would agree (to some degree) that hours don't always correspond to quality. Fake or real, theres plenty of pilots with 'thousands' of hours out there that really shouldn't be flying aeroplanes.

[Density]

I recall a BA pilot telling me of one of his mates who applied for BA who was offered a job but later given the boot. He claimed to have logged over 1000 hours in rego G-BBDB, in circa 2000-2001. When queried as to how he managed to get his hands at the controls of a concorde...he couldn't think on his feet fast enough :-)

[lee_apromise]

The individual you speak of didn't happen to claim to have flown a large chinese turboprop over in asia? Aussie bloke who used to be an instructor and used to look at teeth for a living prior to that?

Don't know about him but I personally know a dude with falsified hours in his logbook who used to fly that Chinese heavy turboprop and eventually crashed one. :E

Oddly enough, another employer hired this dude to fly another turboprop type.

[spaflyer]

Lol some days ago, I heard an instructor where I did my CPL course, that some years ago there was a student who fake his logbook, he just went to the airport and look on what airplanes where flying and wrote those hours as if he was flying himself, the funny part arrived when examiner asked him, wow you have 50 hours on X plane, is the airplane good? The guy answered with yes is really nice, and the examiner replied: Oh great because this is MY airplane :)

[JAMUP]

Skymates in Texas is a known place for dudes with lots of Bogus hours.

Even when they on the right hand seat not flying they log P1 .

[Centaurus]

During many years of being an ATO on simulator instrument rating renewals, I have asked the candidates for their log books. Of course they were needed for the old "sticky labels, anyway - but not now under part 61 requirements.

It didn't take long to become quite cynical at the falsification of hours I observed. It varied. Command hours logged when plainly it was either dual instruction or co-pilot time. Hundreds of ICUS hours when it was clear it was co-pilot time. But mainly logging of claimed instrument (f)lying hours. Taxiing included in instrument flight time. The classic I will always remember was a former Australian domestic airline B727 first officer who of 5000 total hours had logged over 2500 instrument flight time including no doubt as he enjoyed his breakfast, lunch or dinner on his lap while twiddling the autopilot controls on "his leg".

To this day I am still not quite sure if an ATO is legally required to peruse the log book of IPC applicants since there is no requirement to enter a certificate or equivalent into an applicants log book anymore.

[lee_apromise]

Skymates in Texas is a known place for dudes with lots of Bogus hours.

Even when they on the right hand seat not flying they log P1 .

Not bogus hours if the guy sitting on the left is doing hood-on IFR flights. Safety pilot is allowed to log PIC hour under this circumstance under FAA rule.

[GADRIVR]

"The individual you speak of didn't happen to claim to have flown a large chinese turboprop over in asia? Aussie bloke who used to be an instructor and used to look at teeth for a living prior to that?"

One would of thought that particular filthbag would of been caught out years ago.....

[bluesky18]

I have known a couple pilots to have put a few extra hours (thousands) in their log book over the years. Unfortunately one of them was my boss.

Mentioned he had 5000 hours when I started working with him. Few years later he had over 8000. Problem is I flew every hour with him and I logged 1000 extra.:ugh:

People don't realise that hours do not accurately say that a pilot is 'good'..
It is very unfortunate that people do this and it pisses others off when a job is taken from them.

Would love to name and shame this guy as many believe he is a prick.

[Pakehaboy]

Ok mate,you start,name a few,and we will follow.....



Quote,Chocks away......Its time to name and shame those that lie and/or fail, as the ounce reputable, honest and highly held profession of Airline Pilot has now sunk into the realms of what bit of paper with fake quals you can get out of India/Thailand, instead of honest logbook hours & Reference Checks.

[piratepete]

I had the job of hiring many many pilots in XXXX over a 12 year period on to large jets, perhaps looked at maybe 7-800 pilots from all over the world and their logbooks.Faked and/or false logbook entries were common.The evidence always come to me in the SIM where flying skills never matched the logbook.Many entries were easy to spot as fake, sometimes the hours on a page didnt even add up properly.This is a serious industry wide problem and if someone is willing to conduct logbook background checks for a reasonable fee it can be stopped.Take a random page then track down the aircraft logs in detail its not that hard, just takes a little time, then publish that pilots details on the internet, it will soon stop.

[Ollie Onion]

It has been going on for decades, I remember a very senior check CP flying the 757 at a UK charter mob being fired after 15 years of very successful and competent service because it turned out he had faked 'most' of his military hours. Was only rumbled when another military pilot joined and was introduced to the said CP at induction as 'here is someone you will know since you were both in the same squadron!'. Very embarrassing, but by all accounts he was a top bloke and good aviator. I guess what I am saying is that false hours don't automatically mean crap pilot. What it does show is that jobs advertised on 'hours' is very arbitrary when each individual is the person responsible for producing records of those hours, more emphasis needs to be put on competence as opposed to total time.

[LongLats]

I don't understand the point of this thread. Everyone knows people fake hours. It sucks but unless you can come up with a more effective was of policing it, then what are you trying to make happen here? Surely you're not suggesting people hide behind screen names to post the real names of pilots on the internet to accuse them of fraud? Surely not.

[Red Jet]

I guess what I am saying is that false hours don't automatically mean crap pilot
Sorry Ollie - I beg to differ! Not only a crap pilot, but a crap person as well and a person that cannot and shouldn't be trusted!!! If there is one single personal characteristic that is non-negotiable in a "good pilot" it is trustworthiness. A person who fakes his hours cannot be trusted to own up to any other misdeeds either, whether that be over-temping engines, busting minima or whatever you can think of. It's akin to an athlete using illegal substances to get ahead in competitions. They should be disqualified for life, just like a pilot that are caught willfully misrepresenting his qualifications - permanent suspension of all piloting privileges. In certain Asian countries you are in fact likely to end up with time behind bars if caught.

[Derfred]

Chocks Away, you claim to know several pilots with fake hours and then go on to ask others to name and shame without even having the guts to do it yourself?

Don't think this thread should last much longer.

[Squawk7700]

I am aware of someone that logged PIC time in a rear facing passenger seat of a Seneca for which he was not endorsed. This was picked up by the CP who was the owner of said Seneca.

[Chocks Away]

It's a discussion Derfred, to see how huge this problem now is and to see others thoughts on the matter, just for now.
LongLats, no not all. This is just scratching the surface. If it's as big as I think, it may get further attention outside of here and/or create change in airlines' focuses with prospective employees. I don't know yet but I (and many others it seems) are tired of the increasing number of dishonest muppets gaining jobs they have no claim to.

This thread is running in another section and is getting some disturbing responses too. The problem is massive and I can't see it getting any better unless thorough Logbook & Reference checks are bought back in force, and HR focuses on THIS instead of whether I like chasing oiled up pigs or headless chicken around my back yard! Faking logbook hours is a much better indication of character than any psycho-analysis test from HR is going to show, as was eluded to above by Red Jet.

[Pakehaboy]

Ok...I'm listening,start naming names.......I've been involved in this type of "investigation" when I worked contract.....a huge problem,contract company's do not have the time ,resources,or verifiable ability to check .Just take a look at the big name contract companies and actually know how they do checks,whether it be background,logbook etc,it's a farce,it's about money.We are in a new era where cheating is the name of the game,pilot numbers are unprecedented,the game of greed!!!

[romeocharlie]

Hate to point out the blatant obvious Pakehaboy et al, but you can't just accuse someone of falsifying logbook hours on a public forum.

1. You can be taken to court for defamation

2. The moderators of this forum are legally obligated to divulge real names/records of people who are making the claims of point 1.

I stand to be corrected...

For the record, I'd gladly hand my logbook over to anyone that wanted to look at it. I'm proud of every hour in there, could happily discuss and prove every hour and would feel ashamed to even consider faking just one.

RC

[Pakehaboy]

RC,and I totally agree,the statement was more facetious!!! You simply cannot name names,for your obvious reasons and the original poster is ludicrous if he thinks he can and should,no argument there!!!.Personally,I find the ****e-stirring thread worthless, as this whole issue of pencil-whipping of logbooks is not a new phenomenon.Youll find the same practices in many different industry's for sure.

Several posters have made great suggestions regarding how to verify logbook entries,they have and are being used.We should be directing our efforts in that direction,not naming names,that satisfys nothing!

[EatMyShorts!]

You can still do it without getting into trouble. Just get some webspace in Russia or the like and nobody can touch you. Faking logbooks is criminal and these sad individuals need to be named and shamed.

[ROH111]

I remember working in a town in the north of WA, walked into the reception area to hear our "hangar helper" gloatting to his mate on the phone that he was flying the Baron and Chieftan.

He's in an airline now in Australia.

He knows who he is.

Should drop his name to CASA. Not that they would do anything, but I'd love nothing more than to see him get what he deserves.

[InSoMnIaC]

IF time is also only about 5-10% of total time for an IFR pilot. Anything above this is suspicious.

And what if the individual in question has done most of their flying in places that allow logging of all IFR PF time as IF?

What is the point of acutally inflating you IF time anyway? apart from licence upgrade requirements, I don't see any real marketable value in having more or less IF time. its irrelevant. IMO it's silly requiring pilots to count every minute in and out of cloud when in reality IFR is all heads down irrespective of meteorological conditions and further more, VFR above 20000' isn't even allowed.

[drpixie]

allow logging of all IFR PF time as IF

That old chestnut - there's a big difference between IFR and IMC. Anyone logging IFR time in the IMC column of their Australian logbook is wrong and fraudulent. But that same person logging similar time in their insert-appropriate-country-here (eg. Singapore) logbook is behaving perfectly fine because they are recording IFR, not IMC.

A problem arises when people use the same logbook column to record different things. But that's why logbooks contain "special" columns, use those to record whatever time you want, just be honest about it.

[InSoMnIaC]

Anyone logging IFR time in the IMC column of their Australian logbook is wrong and fraudulentAustralian Logbooks have an "Instrument Flight" Column not an "IMC" column.

if it was IMC only then how can an IFR student log IF time Under the hood.

btw nobody is being fraudulent. Every entry in the logbook requires the aircraft registration to be written. it is obvious from this that the flying was done under a foreign jurisdiction.

Back to my question though. What would be the benefit in being "fraudulent" about IF time? as an Overseas employed/licenced pilot I still use my Australian Logbook. How is it being fraudulent when I am already qualified and hope to gain nothing from my IF column. When/If i return to Oz, CASA must accept my logbook because the times were logged under the jurisdiction of an ICAO member state.

[lee_apromise]

btw nobody is being fraudulent. Every entry in the logbook requires the aircraft registration to be written. it is obvious from this that the flying was done under a foreign jurisdiction.

+1 here.

Under FAA, FO can log IMC time even when he is designated as a PM. Is this fraudulent when I apply for license conversion in Australia? Don't think so.

Now the big question is, a FO designated as PF is able to log hours as PIC because there is no such thing as "ICUS" in FAA logbook. (FAA says sole-manipulator of flight controls/autopilot log hours as PIC)

So, will this be recognised as "PIC" hours or "ICUS" hours in Australia?

[pilotchute]

How about an employer telling me to log flight switch only so he could squeeze 115-120 hours out of me per month!

[Tankengine]

I am with pilotchute, what about those who have spent more time in the cockpit than logged? ;)

[Capt Fathom]

How about an employer telling me to log flight switch only so he could squeeze 115-120 hours out of me per month!
They can get efffed! It's your logbook, not theirs!

[rmcdonal]

What would be the benefit in being "fraudulent" about IF time?
Some airlines require X number of hours in IMC (IF), some require X number of hours IFR. I suppose the issue just comes around when someone puts the IFR hours into the IMC (IF) box.
Shouldn't really make any difference once you arrive in an airline, but it tends to be a sticking point for GA pilots attempting to get a leg up. I know of GA pilots flying up North on IFR plans but not logging any IF, due to avoiding flying into the CBs, being knocked back from airline jobs.

I wouldn't know what my IFR time was exactly, I had to fill it in once for a job application and just took my best conservative guess based on the types of aircraft I had been flying (they were only after a minimum time anyway so accuracy wasn't a major concern).

[tail wheel]

You can still do it without getting into trouble. Just get some webspace in Russia or the like and nobody can touch you.

Good luck with that one! I suspect that may be a very risky venture. A handful of Russian Rubles should result in obtaining the offending IP addresses.

Never, ever risk posting anything malicious, defamatory or libellous unless you wish to dispose of a lot of money!

No name, no allegations, not even any "traceable rumours" or the thread gets binned! :=

I once knew of a CPL holder who logged PIC time on every airline he few on as a passenger. Fortunately he never got a flying job.....

[lee_apromise]

I once knew of a CPL holder who logged PIC time on every airline he few on as a passenger. Fortunately he never got a flying job.....

All kidding aside, are you guys making this stuff up or is that a real story?

Can people be that stupid????? :confused:

[Oakape]

No, they are not making it up. And yes, an increasing number of people are that stupid, self serving & dishonest. After all, this is the 21st century.

[Pinky the pilot]

No, they are not making it up.

Sadly, quite correct.:(

As far as I am aware, deliberate falsification of a Pilots Log Book in the manner to which this thread is concerned, is actually a Criminal Offence.

Other Ppruners may know precisely.

[compressor stall]

61.360 False entries in personal logbooks
(1) The holder of a flight crew licence or certificate of validation commits an offence if:
(a) the holder makes an entry in his or her personal logbook; and
(b) the entry is false or misleading.
Penalty: 50 penalty units.

[IsDon]

The sad thing is, while HR bureaucrats and psycobabble numpties run recruiting for most airlines these things will continue to happen.

Despite their degrees they can't spot obvious falsities like have been mentioned here. As long as they pass their mindless tests so they put the candidate in a pigeon hole and they say all the politically correct stuff to keep the HR empire happy they're 90% of the way through the process.

Pilots, sadly, have less and less say on who gets employed these days. That's why these guys get employed.

[Capt Fathom]

Unfortunately, most HR departments know nothing about the real world, and the qualifications required to go with it!
They live in a fantasy world! Their only focus... KPI's and Bonuses!

[tail wheel]

All kidding aside, are you guys making this stuff up or is that a real story?

Can people be that stupid?????

I also said he never got a flying job.

[Dougie Buckets]

@RomeoCharlie, I would love to have a chat with you if possible good sir. Not about log book faking hours but I'm more interested in your story of how you became a pilot and how you are now flying 767's. I'm very jealous, to say the least!
Dougie Buckets

[aussie027]

So basically this entire thread is saying -

"Many pilot's logbooks have a lot of Phantom hours but no one has ever seen a F-4 " !!:E :E

[Chocks Away]

Yes Aussie and the capital letter makes all the difference :ok:

Pakehaboy - As RomeoCharlie mentioned, there are legal implications and with the change of Forum owners here some time ago, who have no connection with the Airline Industry, there's zero protection.

Please read my post #21 again. I was able to effect change with the AvMed once The Australian newspaper picked it up and the AFAP got involved with great research. Public pressure and shaming has great effect. That is really the only "line and length" available to us at this moment but I do know it has already had an effect. Five shonks have been booted from the mob I currently fly for, after found with false quals (not from them reading this admitedly, but from me approaching TRI/TRE's). Still though, there are some more logging P1 time while sitting in the right seat - South American, Paki & Indian.

I don't know the real answer. That's why I put the feelers out on here.
It really is up to Airline HR's to pull their f#&gg*# heads out of the A$$es and concentrate on what Red Jet (http://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/581250-fake-log-book-hours-blacklist.html#post9433281) and you all mentioned because there is a growing list of Airlines myself and friends refuse to fly on, due to who's up the front! The (educated) public are slowly getting wind of this, though are still very price driven.

Happy Landings anyway :ok:

[Metro man]

Fake hours are quite common in India at flying schools where in order to avoid the expense of actually operating the aircraft, the school will give a discount on verifiable Parker pen time.

Earlier posts have shown how small and interconnected the aviation industry is. Common conversation on meeting a pilot for the first time involves background and previous experience, followed by "You must know so and so"

When I joined my present airline, one of my trainers knew a pilot from my second last employer as he was married to his cousin. He also knew someone I remembered from the early 1990s and had recently had lunch with him. Two other pilots worked for the same company as I did in the mid 1990s, another two had the same last employer as I did.

Many years ago someone was telling me about a pilot going for an interview who was asked about some military time he had logged. The interviewer had been the squadron commander at the time and couldn't remember him.

[parabellum]

Some here have said that it is difficult to verify hours flown with a previous employer, not always the case, a 'phone call to the company/companies asking A). Was this person employed by you? B). Did he/she fly the following types as Capt/FO? C). Total hours claimed whilst in your employ are: P1/P2, are theses totals realistic? or you could do it the SIA way, write to previous and/or present employer and ask them to verify as above, even before they have offered you a job! No kidding.

[mr did]

Having a capable HR department with some semblance of awareness and fact checking fixes most problems. A past effort by a major Hong Kong Airline to remove the Freighters from the PAX operation and recruit low cost pilots didn't go so well. One of the the DE captains they interviewed had logged 17,000 hours of which 10,000 were command on the 767. Perfect. Except he was 24. HR gave him a job and themselves a pat on the back. Didn't last long.

[IsDon]

Having a capable HR department with some semblance of awareness and fact checking fixes most problems. A past effort by a major Hong Kong Airline to remove the Freighters from the PAX operation and recruit low cost pilots didn't go so well. One of the the DE captains they interviewed had logged 17,000 hours of which 10,000 were command on the 767. Perfect. Except he was 24. HR gave him a job and themselves a pat on the back. Didn't last long.

Ohhh I don't know. 8760 Hours in a year, 17,000 years is less than two years airborne. Assuming he never slept, and did mid air refuels for two years?????? He could have started at 22.

Even if he flew the maximum possible 1000/year it would take him 17 years. Maybe he started flying when he was 7??????

I'm just trying to think through the HR logic here that passed their scrutiny.

[Oakape]

Using HR & logic in the same sentence is not very wise.

[DeltaT]

Using HR & logic in the same sentence is not very wise.

:D:D:D :}
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