Will a 744 do Brisbane, Australia to New York Direct?

[Cloud Basher]

So a number of questions I am hoping that those who know for sure might be able to answer.

Assumptions:
50 passengers with 30kg of baggage
500 kg freight

Could a 747-400 fly from Brisbane to New York Direct with the above payload?

What would be the average cruising speed with that payload? ( have seen everything from 413kts to 525kts quoted).

What would be your best guess with prevailing winds for a mid March flight of the ground speed/flight time?

I know the last question is at best a wild guess but I am hoping some experienced guys or girls on here may be able to provide a ballpark figure.

I am in the early stages of planning a charter for a large group and we want to use a 747 as (I believe?) they are faster than the A380 (time is of the essence - shame the Concord isn't still flying!) and saving 30-60 mins is essential. We did look at the 787 but my client has decided on the 747 just because it is a bigger billboard. I have not yet approached any charter companies or airlines, as I am just entertaining the possible at this stage. If it is remotely possible then it gives me some ideas to go off and we can proceed to formally approaching some providers.

If anyone knows of a faster aircraft that may have that range with 50 pax, I am all ears.

Last question, what is a 747-400's max cruise speed, where fuel burn is not a consideration, with 200 pax and over no more than 3000nm?

All answers very much appreciated.

Cheers
CB

[Heathrow Harry]

saving 30 minutes or one hour on a 15+ hour trip is essential????

You'll lose that in US immigration any day............

[atakacs]

Wonder if a suitably modified 727 could do it?

[canberra97]

This seems a topic more suited to Airliners.net than a rumour site such as Pprune as I am sure your get more replies on there regarding this!

[atakacs]

Is having all PAX in the same aircraft a prerequisite ?

If not maybe 3 or 4 G650ER might do the job :cool:

[Cloud Basher]

atakacs,
That was our original planning, but the task has grown now to significantly larger. Even so, long range cruise of the G650 is Mach 0.85 and that is with 8 pax only. Plus I don't believe the G650 could do Brisbane-New York (It could do LA but that is an extra stop and thus an extra 90 mins or so on the ground all things going well for the turnaround).

Heathrow Harry, We will not have to deal with US immigration.

canberra,
Maybe it would be and I might yet have to go there! I was hoping that some "professional pilots" who have flown these aircraft may be able to chime in.

Cheers
CB

[eckhard]

Assumptions:
50 passengers with 30kg of baggage
500 kg freight


So, assume a payload of 6,000kg


Could a 747-400 fly from Brisbane to New York Direct with the above payload?


Yes, I think so but it could be tight! Hopefully your aircraft will have the Stab Tank fitted


What would be the average cruising speed with that payload? ( have seen everything from 413kts to 525kts quoted).


Long-Range Cruise is M0.85, so about 500kts in ISA


What would be your best guess with prevailing winds for a mid March flight of the ground speed/flight time?


Assuming 490kts avg ground speed, about 17hrs30mins


I know the last question is at best a wild guess but I am hoping some experienced guys or girls on here may be able to provide a ballpark figure.


9,000 hrs/14 yrs on type


Last question, what is a 747-400's max cruise speed, where fuel burn is not a consideration, with 200 pax and over no more than 3000nm?


M0.90/520kts

Quick answers so my best guesstimates. Sounds like a fun project. I have manuals and planning info available. If you would like more detailed information, PM me.

[philbky]

Heathrow Harry, We will not have to deal with US immigration.


CB

How can you not deal with US immigration?

[PDR1]

It could be an all-diplomatic flight, or perhaps he's planning to invade.

:)

PDR

[Cloud Basher]

So, assume a payload of 6,000kg



Yes, I think so but it could be tight! Hopefully your aircraft will have the Stab Tank fitted



Long-Range Cruise is M0.85, so about 500kts in ISA



Assuming 490kts avg ground speed, about 17hrs30mins



9,000 hrs/14 yrs on type



M0.90/520kts

Quick answers so my best guesstimates. Sounds like a fun project. I have manuals and planning info available. If you would like more detailed information, PM me.

eckhard,
Thank you very much for the info. That confirms it is possible so now to find a charter company/airline who may want to lend me their aeroplane!

Cheers
CB

[Una Due Tfc]

eckhard,
Thank you very much for the info. That confirms it is possible so now to find a charter company/airline who may want to lend me their aeroplane!

Cheers
CB

Not sure how many 744s Air Atlanta have, but they've currently got one chartered out with Iron Maiden, looks pretty slick and they even let Bruce Dickinson fly the thing.

[philbky]

Something odd about this. Wants an aircraft large enough to be a billboard, has a very tight arrival time, won't have to deal with immigration. Care to enlighten us?

[Cloud Basher]

Something odd about this. Wants an aircraft large enough to be a billboard, has a very tight arrival time, won't have to deal with immigration. Care to enlighten us?

Not yet. Deal is not done. As I said I am after the possible and I have that now. Emails sent this morning to a few users. Will see what comes back.

Cheers
CB

[Calmcavok]

I'm pretty sure EK operated a non-stop 777 Freighter (essentially a -200LR) from Sydney to a New York area airfield a few years ago. Perhaps that's where you should be looking. LRC around M0.84.

[eckhard]

With some help from my manuals, a more accurate answer:

All weights in kgx1000

Aircraft: B.747-400
Engines: RR RB.211-524G

DOW: 184.0 (assuming 4 pilots and 10 cabin crew)
Load: 6.0
ZFW: 190.0
Ramp Fuel: 174.0
Ramp Wt: 364.0
Start/Taxi: 2.0
TOW: 362.0

Great Circle Distance BNE-JFK: 8,374nm
Assumed total Ground Distance: 8,500nm

In ISA and still air:
Flight Time: 17+40
Total Fuel used: 172.0
Fuel remaining
after landing: 2.0
IN OTHER WORDS; NOT VIABLE

In ISA and 25kt tailwind component:
Flight Time: 16+50
Total Fuel used: 164.5
Fuel remaining
after landing: 9.5
IN OTHER WORDS; 'NORMAL RESERVES'

A 25kt tailwind component seems reasonable but I am not familiar with the Pacific area, so you will need to check with a professional planner regarding expected ISA deviation and wind, as well as the realistic flight-planned ground distance.

You will also need the aircraft provider to confirm whether or not my DOW, crew figure and total fuel capacity assumptions are reasonable.

The last 2,000nm will be over the USA, thereby providing plenty of alternate airfields during the last 4 hours if there is a fuel shortage at the later stages of the flight.

Note that there is no allowance for 'contingency fuel'. Re-clearance procedures are assumed.

Hope this helps!

[Heathrow Harry]

Looks like a load of bollocks to me - who needs to be that time specific coming from Brisbane ? How do you NOT deal with US immigration?? Why only 50 pax +500kg of freight? or why is aircraft speed an issue??? and the aircraft is going to be a "billboard" so will require a paint job as well???

Might be some mad PR stunt - play a game of Aussie Rules in Brisbane and then fly and play one in NY 24 hours later.......... but it all sounds lunatic - or a student.........

cudgelling my brains to think of ANYTHING that would need you to leg it with 49 others all the way from Brisbane to NY and be worried about 30 minutes

Pizza Delivery???

[eckhard]

I don't know about the reasons for the flight but it was fun crunching the numbers:8

[crewmeal]

BA flew Blair + entourage from BRU to MEL non stop a few years ago on a 777-200. Looks like the total number of pax was around 100.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ba-boeing-777-200-breaks-non-stop-commercial-flight-record-brussels-to-205768/

QF also flew non stop LHR-SYD with crew on a 747-400.

[Stanwell]

HH,
Yes, it's had me scratching my head, too.
However .. think of an 'entertainment troupe' and their equipment ..
How one bypasses US immigration, I'd still like to know, though.

eckhard .. Thanks for your trouble coming up with those figures. - Us lazy b@sterds are indebted to you.

[Cloud Basher]

With some help from my manuals, a more accurate answer:

All weights in kgx1000

Aircraft: B.747-400
Engines: RR RB.211-524G

DOW: 184.0 (assuming 4 pilots and 10 cabin crew)
Load: 6.0
ZFW: 190.0
Ramp Fuel: 174.0
Ramp Wt: 364.0
Start/Taxi: 2.0
TOW: 362.0

Great Circle Distance BNE-JFK: 8,374nm
Assumed total Ground Distance: 8,500nm

In ISA and still air:
Flight Time: 17+40
Total Fuel used: 172.0
Fuel remaining
after landing: 2.0
IN OTHER WORDS; NOT VIABLE

In ISA and 25kt tailwind component:
Flight Time: 16+50
Total Fuel used: 164.5
Fuel remaining
after landing: 9.5
IN OTHER WORDS; 'NORMAL RESERVES'

A 25kt tailwind component seems reasonable but I am not familiar with the Pacific area, so you will need to check with a professional planner regarding expected ISA deviation and wind, as well as the realistic flight-planned ground distance.

You will also need the aircraft provider to confirm whether or not my DOW, crew figure and total fuel capacity assumptions are reasonable.

The last 2,000nm will be over the USA, thereby providing plenty of alternate airfields during the last 4 hours if there is a fuel shortage at the later stages of the flight.

Note that there is no allowance for 'contingency fuel'. Re-clearance procedures are assumed.

Hope this helps!

eckhard,
Thank you very much for running the numbers. They make for some very interesting figures. It is very much appreciated.

Cheers
CB

[MATELO]

I hope you get a "Private Invite" Eckhard to what ever function is time critical they are racing to get to. It must be good. :ok:

[atakacs]

Just in case the 747 can't make it (seems marginal but within specs) what about a C-17 with aerial refueling (assuming obviously you have deep pockets and the right contacts)?
Slower bird but can accommodate VIP containers (ask HRC) and might be your best bet time wise if non-stop is not otherwise doable.

[eckhard]

Thank you very much for running the numbers. They make for some very interesting figures. It is very much appreciated.

You are very welcome! Any chance of a cheeky seat if it all comes together? It would be nice to see if it all works in the real world.:O

[Cloud Basher]

eckhard,
That I cannot do. Private gig and I have zero influence on who gets on and who doesn't. But if you are ever in Australia, the evening is on me!

Cheers
CB

[Peter47]

Three thoughts from an "armchair pilot".

TOW 362 tonnes. The maximum certified TOW is of a 744 is 396.9 tonnes. Could you fit some bladder cells in the hold? (OK if it requires certification the answer is no.)

The QF flight referred to used higher density fuel (I believe around 0.85). I don't know how energy varies with density but this may be a way forward. Also the QF aircraft was towed to the end of the runway so that it could take off with full tanks.

I have also been looking at average flight times (only available for US carriers). As an example UA between SFO and LAX took 13hr 26 mins in Feb 15 but 12hr 56 mins in May 15 or half an hour less. This is actually quite a small variation - it can be well over an hour for eastbound and north Pacific flights, but suggests that it may be possible - but only on a summers day with favourable winds.

[eckhard]

That I cannot do. Private gig and I have zero influence on who gets on and who doesn't. But if you are ever in Australia, the evening is on me!

Ok, copied!

[Heathrow Harry]

Stanwells guess as "an entertainment troup" may be close to the truth - tho since the destination is fixed I startingto think it could be a member of the mega-rich

No Cookies | The Courier Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/rich-list/queenslands-top-150-rich-list/news-story/915c556f855291d84bf49d93a91ba117)

taking their family and mates to a specific concert in New York - that would explain the importance of the fixed time and non-stop. Presumably if you are that rich your people square Immigration easily. Still leaves the question about why they can't leave earlier - so that is fixed in concrete as well - possibly a wedding then a cross-world flight for the wedding party to see someone like Beyonce.........

[rog747]

Qantas have the right a/c the 747-438ER both types of engine too - CF6 and RR RB211524/g/t and specialise in long drags -
they did a 747-400 delivery as mentioned above from LHR non stop to SYD and they still do the Antarctica sightseeing flights plus have trans Pacific expertise

using QF will save on positioning flight costs too - their first class and business class seats are all new too - the 747's having 380 style refit a while back

[MATELO]

Any news ??

[mutt]

Nobody avoids US Immigration, we operate a lot of VVIP flights, APIS is required and immigration will always meet the aircraft.

Plan total 184904 exceeds a/c fuel cap 172446 by 12458 kgs.
POD = YBBN POA = KJFK
DST = 008492 nm

Using at least 1 redispatch, might make this possible.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Nobody avoids US Immigration,"

Indeed - buth the Good & the Great get a smile and a 2 minute delay whereas the great unwashed are in a line that goes right out of the terminal.....................

[atakacs]

Did this actually happen ?!